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With my contract ending in time for Winter 2016/2017, I'm giving some thought to finally filling a hole in my climbing CV and learning to Ski. Mainly so I can get from A-B in the Alps at that time of year, though I'm also interested in ski touring in Scotland since it gives me something to do on the off days when there's too much snow.
I have little interest in on piste skiing, but I realise I need to start somewhere, so I'm not averse to learning to snowplough. I am fully versed in the art of Googling, but I'm still confused by the bewildering array of skiing equipment and techniques.
The Ski Tour Scotland website advocates Nordic gear for beginners learning in Scotland, which seems a bit more left field than everything else I've read - but I like the idea of lightweight gear. I have not seen anyone in Scotland used Nordic gear, though. And is "Nordic Gear" the same as cross country skis? Or just alpine skis with nordic bindings? As I say, thoroughly confused. Would be interested to hear from other opinions on this stuff, particularly from anyone who learnt to ski tour without being a competent downhill skier first.
Cheers,
Andrew.
I have little interest in on piste skiing, but I realise I need to start somewhere, so I'm not averse to learning to snowplough. I am fully versed in the art of Googling, but I'm still confused by the bewildering array of skiing equipment and techniques.
The Ski Tour Scotland website advocates Nordic gear for beginners learning in Scotland, which seems a bit more left field than everything else I've read - but I like the idea of lightweight gear. I have not seen anyone in Scotland used Nordic gear, though. And is "Nordic Gear" the same as cross country skis? Or just alpine skis with nordic bindings? As I say, thoroughly confused. Would be interested to hear from other opinions on this stuff, particularly from anyone who learnt to ski tour without being a competent downhill skier first.
Cheers,
Andrew.
In reply to planetmarshall:
A good piste skier is a good off piste skier, going to off piste with only a snowplough will make for an horrendous experience.
Nordic is cross country, its AT gear you need to be looking at.
A good piste skier is a good off piste skier, going to off piste with only a snowplough will make for an horrendous experience.
Nordic is cross country, its AT gear you need to be looking at.
2
In reply to planetmarshall:
The way I see it, Alpine touring equipment is the classic lifting binding, which can be used for skinning up a hill with skins stuck on the skis and then clamped down at the heel for skiing downhill. The transition from up to down takes a few minutes so this kind of equipment is favoured in the Alps where you can spend an entire morning skinning up then an afternoon skiing back down. I use this equipment for piste skiing because it's lighter than downhill kit and the boots are easier around the resort.
Using this kind of equipment you don't need to be a hotshot skier; you just need a repertoire of basic defensive techniques like side-slipping and snowplough to get down the hill in the varying snow conditions you will encounter in a 5000 ft descent. However it helps massively if you can ski well on the piste.
Scottish skiers prefer Nordic gear, which (and I'm ready to be corrected here) is also called "free heel" skiing as only the front of the boot is clamped to the binding, making it lighter, simpler, quicker in transition and allowing the user to cover varied terrain with lots of small ups and downs. However I think I'm right in saying you've got to learn to do a Telemark turn, which is very elegant.
Then there's cross-country, which uses lightweight shoes clamped by the toe welt to very long skinny skis, with either a sticky wax or fish scales on the soles, and requires a loipe or a parallel set of tracks in which the skis run unless you are giving yourself a coronary by "skating" up the hills.
More or less right?
The way I see it, Alpine touring equipment is the classic lifting binding, which can be used for skinning up a hill with skins stuck on the skis and then clamped down at the heel for skiing downhill. The transition from up to down takes a few minutes so this kind of equipment is favoured in the Alps where you can spend an entire morning skinning up then an afternoon skiing back down. I use this equipment for piste skiing because it's lighter than downhill kit and the boots are easier around the resort.
Using this kind of equipment you don't need to be a hotshot skier; you just need a repertoire of basic defensive techniques like side-slipping and snowplough to get down the hill in the varying snow conditions you will encounter in a 5000 ft descent. However it helps massively if you can ski well on the piste.
Scottish skiers prefer Nordic gear, which (and I'm ready to be corrected here) is also called "free heel" skiing as only the front of the boot is clamped to the binding, making it lighter, simpler, quicker in transition and allowing the user to cover varied terrain with lots of small ups and downs. However I think I'm right in saying you've got to learn to do a Telemark turn, which is very elegant.
Then there's cross-country, which uses lightweight shoes clamped by the toe welt to very long skinny skis, with either a sticky wax or fish scales on the soles, and requires a loipe or a parallel set of tracks in which the skis run unless you are giving yourself a coronary by "skating" up the hills.
More or less right?
Post edited at 12:43
2
In reply to planetmarshall:
With modern carving skis, skiing is skiing whether it is off-piste or not. Ultimately the technique between the two is the same with the difference being the amount of balance you place on the front of the ski varying with the depth of powder (sure someone will have another opinion however). Learning to ski on a piste therefore has it's uses as falling won't mean searching for hours in powder for your skis and it is much less physical than powder and crusty ice skiing.
Ski-wise, depends what you're looking for. AT gear is what you want if you want it to be useful in the alps. You can get pretty lightweight AT setups, don't go too lightweight as it becomes very hard to ski properly and you will curse having spent extra money for something that doesn't ski as well.
With modern carving skis, skiing is skiing whether it is off-piste or not. Ultimately the technique between the two is the same with the difference being the amount of balance you place on the front of the ski varying with the depth of powder (sure someone will have another opinion however). Learning to ski on a piste therefore has it's uses as falling won't mean searching for hours in powder for your skis and it is much less physical than powder and crusty ice skiing.
Ski-wise, depends what you're looking for. AT gear is what you want if you want it to be useful in the alps. You can get pretty lightweight AT setups, don't go too lightweight as it becomes very hard to ski properly and you will curse having spent extra money for something that doesn't ski as well.
In reply to Dark-Cloud:
I wrote this several years ago, some of it is still relevant
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=172
I started to tour well before I was a competent skier (not sure that I 'competent' now) but I did ski on the piste a bit & I'm not sure I'd recommend following my example - I'm sure I would have progressed more quickly, & learnt less bad habitats, if I'd had more than one piste based lesson & had down more downhill skiing first.
For what its worth, after one day on alpine style skis, I learnt to ski on nordic gear, a term that covers a very wide range of skis/boots/bindings. For most Scottish skiing, a pair of mid width skis (maybe 60-70 mm underfoot) with cable bindings & lighter plastic boots would be fine although lighter gear (as long as you have steel edges) will get you a long way. Personally I suspect my technique is better having learnt to ski with leather boots but the learning curve is much steeper & I suspect you'll find it hard to get appropriate leather boots today anyway.
With nordic skis you can manage most/all the alpine turns (parallel, stem, snow plough...) plus telemark - you just need a little skill
But rather than getting hung up on gear, see what you can find/hire easily & get out on the hill
I wrote this several years ago, some of it is still relevant
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=172
I started to tour well before I was a competent skier (not sure that I 'competent' now) but I did ski on the piste a bit & I'm not sure I'd recommend following my example - I'm sure I would have progressed more quickly, & learnt less bad habitats, if I'd had more than one piste based lesson & had down more downhill skiing first.
For what its worth, after one day on alpine style skis, I learnt to ski on nordic gear, a term that covers a very wide range of skis/boots/bindings. For most Scottish skiing, a pair of mid width skis (maybe 60-70 mm underfoot) with cable bindings & lighter plastic boots would be fine although lighter gear (as long as you have steel edges) will get you a long way. Personally I suspect my technique is better having learnt to ski with leather boots but the learning curve is much steeper & I suspect you'll find it hard to get appropriate leather boots today anyway.
With nordic skis you can manage most/all the alpine turns (parallel, stem, snow plough...) plus telemark - you just need a little skill
But rather than getting hung up on gear, see what you can find/hire easily & get out on the hill
Post edited at 12:46
In reply to J_Trottet:
That's a VERY over simplified explanation of the transition from piste to off piste, i think anybody learning to ski really needs a few lessons to understand the mechanics of it all, it would make life so much easier.
> With modern carving skis, skiing is skiing whether it is off-piste or not. Ultimately the technique between the two is the same with the difference being the amount of balance you place on the front of the ski varying with the depth of powder (sure someone will have another opinion however). Learning to ski on a piste therefore has it's uses as falling won't mean searching for hours in powder for your skis and it is much less physical than powder and crusty ice skiing.
That's a VERY over simplified explanation of the transition from piste to off piste, i think anybody learning to ski really needs a few lessons to understand the mechanics of it all, it would make life so much easier.
4
In reply to Doug:
To be honest if it were just about the Alps, I'd settle on AT gear and be done with it - it's what everyone else I know seems to use. But I think I can see the attraction of Nordic gear for UK conditions.
> With nordic skis you can manage most/all the alpine turns (parallel, stem, snow plough...) plus telemark - you just need a little skill
To be honest if it were just about the Alps, I'd settle on AT gear and be done with it - it's what everyone else I know seems to use. But I think I can see the attraction of Nordic gear for UK conditions.
In reply to Dark-Cloud:
To be honest, mösjöö TRottet is correct. Actually the skiing dynamics (weight transfer, balance etc.) are exactly the same, weather on piste or off.
Problem is, that you can also get by on piste without not really doing it correctly. Which is where the problems arise. Pistes are after all, reasonably flat, and also consistent snow... Off piste might not be.
So yeah, learning to ski (on piste) 1st will make the transition to touring and off piste a lot easier.
What is basically needed, is just a lot of skiing (after getting the hang of it initially), and using lifts maximizes the amount of skiing you can do in a day. Which one is better, 300m of vert with tired legs from the touring portion... or 3000+m of vert from lifts ?
To be honest, mösjöö TRottet is correct. Actually the skiing dynamics (weight transfer, balance etc.) are exactly the same, weather on piste or off.
Problem is, that you can also get by on piste without not really doing it correctly. Which is where the problems arise. Pistes are after all, reasonably flat, and also consistent snow... Off piste might not be.
So yeah, learning to ski (on piste) 1st will make the transition to touring and off piste a lot easier.
What is basically needed, is just a lot of skiing (after getting the hang of it initially), and using lifts maximizes the amount of skiing you can do in a day. Which one is better, 300m of vert with tired legs from the touring portion... or 3000+m of vert from lifts ?
In reply to planetmarshall:
You want to ski? Or suffer?
I'm bad at this skiing thing, be it with AT or tele gear...
And if touring and stuff in the Alps or Scandinavia is your goal... I'd get AT gear. More control and and overall weight will be less than on teles.
When you're already good at skiing, then tele makes prefect sence (on smaller hills, like Scotland) as again things will feel harder... because telewankin' in harder (physically but also mentally, just ask TobyA about chasing peeps on AT gear)... Not to mention telemarking is stupid...
> But I think I can see the attraction of Nordic gear for UK conditions.
You want to ski? Or suffer?
I'm bad at this skiing thing, be it with AT or tele gear...
And if touring and stuff in the Alps or Scandinavia is your goal... I'd get AT gear. More control and and overall weight will be less than on teles.
When you're already good at skiing, then tele makes prefect sence (on smaller hills, like Scotland) as again things will feel harder... because telewankin' in harder (physically but also mentally, just ask TobyA about chasing peeps on AT gear)... Not to mention telemarking is stupid...
In reply to HeMa:
Sounds sensible. So... say you could disappear at the weekend somewhere to get a lot of easy mileage done, and Scotland was not an option, where would you go?
> What is basically needed, is just a lot of skiing (after getting the hang of it initially), and using lifts maximizes the amount of skiing you can do in a day. Which one is better, 300m of vert with tired legs from the touring portion... or 3000+m of vert from lifts ?
Sounds sensible. So... say you could disappear at the weekend somewhere to get a lot of easy mileage done, and Scotland was not an option, where would you go?
In reply to planetmarshall:
Touring of lift-served?
If the former, now or say April/May. Timetable for the latter as well...
Touring of lift-served?
If the former, now or say April/May. Timetable for the latter as well...
In reply to planetmarshall:
Right, just as a word of warning………. Skiing is bloody brilliant! It’s involves a lot more type I fun than type II fun compared to climbing so be prepared to start skiing ‘just to access some routes’ and end up spending a fortune on a quiver of skis that spend far too much time gathering dust whilst you justify to yourself spending a month’s pay cheque on a pair of DPS spoons was a sensible idea.
Anyway………
1. Get AT gear.
For all the chat about “Nordic” gear 95% of people in Scotland and Brits abroad will be on AT gear. You can skin in, properly ski on it, climb in the boots, take it on a ski holiday, do the Cairngorm 4000ers etc. Best one fit solution imo. (Don’t buy it till you know what you’re doing)
2. Learn to ski.
This is best done in an alpine ski resort, on pistes with a decent instructor. Forget the AT kit for the moment, rent and learn on standard downhill kit. I would say stump up the cash for a course of lessons at the Chill Factore before you go then you can jump a class when you get to the mountains and will get a lot more out of the resort.
Right, just as a word of warning………. Skiing is bloody brilliant! It’s involves a lot more type I fun than type II fun compared to climbing so be prepared to start skiing ‘just to access some routes’ and end up spending a fortune on a quiver of skis that spend far too much time gathering dust whilst you justify to yourself spending a month’s pay cheque on a pair of DPS spoons was a sensible idea.
Anyway………
1. Get AT gear.
For all the chat about “Nordic” gear 95% of people in Scotland and Brits abroad will be on AT gear. You can skin in, properly ski on it, climb in the boots, take it on a ski holiday, do the Cairngorm 4000ers etc. Best one fit solution imo. (Don’t buy it till you know what you’re doing)
2. Learn to ski.
This is best done in an alpine ski resort, on pistes with a decent instructor. Forget the AT kit for the moment, rent and learn on standard downhill kit. I would say stump up the cash for a course of lessons at the Chill Factore before you go then you can jump a class when you get to the mountains and will get a lot more out of the resort.
2
In reply to HeMa:
Lift served, Jan-Feb. Needs to be childishly easy ( eg Green and Blue runs ).
> Touring of lift-served?
Lift served, Jan-Feb. Needs to be childishly easy ( eg Green and Blue runs ).
In reply to planetmarshall:
One of the Lillehammer resorts might be good... Easy to get to (flights to Oslo Gardamoen) and not far from there.
Enough light (even floodlights for evening skiing), good ski schools and most likely not that crowded (as long as you avoid the mid to end Feb, when the school holidays are)...
I prefer Norway to the Alps anyway.
But if you live close to London, Les Arcs might also be an option (can easily be reached via trains).
One of the Lillehammer resorts might be good... Easy to get to (flights to Oslo Gardamoen) and not far from there.
Enough light (even floodlights for evening skiing), good ski schools and most likely not that crowded (as long as you avoid the mid to end Feb, when the school holidays are)...
I prefer Norway to the Alps anyway.
But if you live close to London, Les Arcs might also be an option (can easily be reached via trains).
1
In reply to planetmarshall:
Hi Andrew,
I hope this article answers some of your questions:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=6078
And I would advise against Nordic equipment, despite what a vocal minority might suggest!
All the best, maybe see you on the hill on skis some day!
Jack
Hi Andrew,
I hope this article answers some of your questions:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=6078
And I would advise against Nordic equipment, despite what a vocal minority might suggest!
All the best, maybe see you on the hill on skis some day!
Jack
In reply to Jack Geldard - UKC Chief Editor:
Yes I read that, thanks Jack. Just trying to avoid initially spending a lot of money on what could be an expensive new hobby by doing my research.
> Hi Andrew,
> I hope this article answers some of your questions:
Yes I read that, thanks Jack. Just trying to avoid initially spending a lot of money on what could be an expensive new hobby by doing my research.
Post edited at 14:18
In reply to planetmarshall:
Don't blame you!
Try and grab a cheap second hand ski/binding set up with skins, but I would opt for getting your boots in a good shop with good fitting.
J
Don't blame you!
Try and grab a cheap second hand ski/binding set up with skins, but I would opt for getting your boots in a good shop with good fitting.
J
2
In reply to planetmarshall:
I would definitely rent, or failing that buy second hand until you have a handle on the kit. Even ignoring the AT vs telemark argument, skis come in quite a variety of shapes and they feel different to ride. It took me several years to figure out what I did and didn't like. In addition to that, as my technique has improved, I have begun to favour longer skis. I finally bought new skis this year, 7 years after I started skiing. They are about 15cm longer and a totally different shape to what I would have bought when I was starting out - I am glad I waited!
I would definitely rent, or failing that buy second hand until you have a handle on the kit. Even ignoring the AT vs telemark argument, skis come in quite a variety of shapes and they feel different to ride. It took me several years to figure out what I did and didn't like. In addition to that, as my technique has improved, I have begun to favour longer skis. I finally bought new skis this year, 7 years after I started skiing. They are about 15cm longer and a totally different shape to what I would have bought when I was starting out - I am glad I waited!
1
In reply to planetmarshall:
Yes that's good advice. Ski design has moved fast in the last 20 years and today's skis are easier to turn than ever. However there is also even more confusing choice of skis, all of which can be fitted with touring bindings. Every ski has different characteristics so take advice from a good touring specialist.
Yes that's good advice. Ski design has moved fast in the last 20 years and today's skis are easier to turn than ever. However there is also even more confusing choice of skis, all of which can be fitted with touring bindings. Every ski has different characteristics so take advice from a good touring specialist.
Post edited at 16:17
In reply to planetmarshall: I have a Nordic set and a touring setup and if you get a fat Nordic setup like a Fischer 99 or 109 you can do a heck of a lot. But you should get a full touring setup as for the alps the Nordic , even far, will be tricky and limiting
I'd get that, then use it as a downhill ski and learn on piste
I'd get that, then use it as a downhill ski and learn on piste
In reply to Dark-Cloud:
Not really, as cross country skiing most places means track skiing with ultralight gear (either classic or skate-style). Nordic gear can run from heavy, very downhill oriented telemark kit through to almost XC track gear but with leather shoes and and slightly tougher bindings NNN BC etc.
But it seems to me the big change in the last 5 or so years is that AT gear with tech bindings is now often lighter than downhill oriented tele gear.
> Nordic is cross country,
Not really, as cross country skiing most places means track skiing with ultralight gear (either classic or skate-style). Nordic gear can run from heavy, very downhill oriented telemark kit through to almost XC track gear but with leather shoes and and slightly tougher bindings NNN BC etc.
But it seems to me the big change in the last 5 or so years is that AT gear with tech bindings is now often lighter than downhill oriented tele gear.
In reply to TobyA:
been true for maybe 15 years, at least 10 (tech bindings are now so old that the Dynafit patent has run out, think I first saw them for sale in Scotland in the mid 1980s)
> But it seems to me the big change in the last 5 or so years is that AT gear with tech bindings is now often lighter than downhill oriented tele gear.
been true for maybe 15 years, at least 10 (tech bindings are now so old that the Dynafit patent has run out, think I first saw them for sale in Scotland in the mid 1980s)
2
In reply to planetmarshall:
Andrew, I suspect that AT gear is what you want as aside from touring as an end in itself you can use it to ski into routes and with the right boots/route/skill you can climb in the same boots. This is coming from a fundamentalist telemark bigot.
This might stir your porridge:
youtube.com/watch?v=jkR8SeCpmf0&
Andrew, I suspect that AT gear is what you want as aside from touring as an end in itself you can use it to ski into routes and with the right boots/route/skill you can climb in the same boots. This is coming from a fundamentalist telemark bigot.
This might stir your porridge:
youtube.com/watch?v=jkR8SeCpmf0&
In reply to HeMa:
Booked myself a weekend in Lillehammer, first weekend in Feb.
> One of the Lillehammer resorts might be good... Easy to get to (flights to Oslo Gardamoen) and not far from there.
Booked myself a weekend in Lillehammer, first weekend in Feb.
3
In reply to planetmarshall:
I was just explaining this to one of my friends with the following table.
It's a broad simplification but this is how I understand it. Apologies for formatting!
Names..................cross-country..................fjellski..................randonee.....................downhill
..............................nordic..............................nordic..................touring........................alpin
..............................langrenn......................................................AT................................................
Heels?...................free..................................free......................free or attached.........attached
Edges?..................plastic..............................metal...................metal...........................metal
Need piste?..........yes...................................no.........................no................................no
For uphill?............wax..................................skins.....................skins............................no uphill
-----------------------------------------> weight ---------------------------------------------------->
-----------------------------------------> width ------------------------------------------------------>
-----------------------------------------> boot stiffness ------------------------------------------->
-----------------------------------------> good at downhill --------------------------------------->
I was just explaining this to one of my friends with the following table.
It's a broad simplification but this is how I understand it. Apologies for formatting!
Names..................cross-country..................fjellski..................randonee.....................downhill
..............................nordic..............................nordic..................touring........................alpin
..............................langrenn......................................................AT................................................
Heels?...................free..................................free......................free or attached.........attached
Edges?..................plastic..............................metal...................metal...........................metal
Need piste?..........yes...................................no.........................no................................no
For uphill?............wax..................................skins.....................skins............................no uphill
-----------------------------------------> weight ---------------------------------------------------->
-----------------------------------------> width ------------------------------------------------------>
-----------------------------------------> boot stiffness ------------------------------------------->
-----------------------------------------> good at downhill --------------------------------------->
Post edited at 08:22
1
In reply to planetmarshall:
Additionally, Lillehammer is great for xc/langgrenn on the groomed runs (the ones with the ruts for your skis) and for downhill, but I would double check you can hire fjellski/AT/whatever equipment where you're staying as it doesn't tend to be as popular there.
Unless you're going for xc/downhill, in which case ignore me!
Additionally, Lillehammer is great for xc/langgrenn on the groomed runs (the ones with the ruts for your skis) and for downhill, but I would double check you can hire fjellski/AT/whatever equipment where you're staying as it doesn't tend to be as popular there.
Unless you're going for xc/downhill, in which case ignore me!
In reply to TobyA:
OK, accepted, but you know what I meant, if he went out and bought Nordic gear instead of AT he would have had a shock.....
OK, accepted, but you know what I meant, if he went out and bought Nordic gear instead of AT he would have had a shock.....
1
In reply to Dark-Cloud:
downhill skiing on "proper" miserystixes is a real eye opener... highly recommended.
I used to do that for the 1st day of the season (lift served). SNS bindings on Madshus Voss -skis (about the size of normal xc skis, just with metal edges).
downhill skiing on "proper" miserystixes is a real eye opener... highly recommended.
I used to do that for the 1st day of the season (lift served). SNS bindings on Madshus Voss -skis (about the size of normal xc skis, just with metal edges).
In reply to annak:
A start but what you call 'cross country' (I think I'd say 'track skis' as I'd also include Fjell skis as cross country) are more often fish scale than waxing for up hill (at least in France, maybe different in Scandinavia) or used in skating style. Its not clear where the heavier 'telemark' gear would fit - many of us use it for 'randonée & (downhill) piste skiing.
And to make life more complex, I've often used your 'cross country' category for touring in the woods & meadows of areas like the Vosges & Jura
(edited as UKC didn't accept my é in randonée)
A start but what you call 'cross country' (I think I'd say 'track skis' as I'd also include Fjell skis as cross country) are more often fish scale than waxing for up hill (at least in France, maybe different in Scandinavia) or used in skating style. Its not clear where the heavier 'telemark' gear would fit - many of us use it for 'randonée & (downhill) piste skiing.
And to make life more complex, I've often used your 'cross country' category for touring in the woods & meadows of areas like the Vosges & Jura
(edited as UKC didn't accept my é in randonée)
Post edited at 09:27
In reply to Doug:
Exactly, that was part of what I was trying to convey, that terms like 'cross country' and 'nordic' cover *way* too broad a set of equipment / styles
I forgot about scales, let me go add that to my table, thanks!
Exactly, that was part of what I was trying to convey, that terms like 'cross country' and 'nordic' cover *way* too broad a set of equipment / styles
I forgot about scales, let me go add that to my table, thanks!
In reply to Doug:
Ook I can't edit it now... let me just post it again. I don't know what other people call fjellskis, any ideas?
Names..................cross-country..................cross-country.............cross-country...............downhill
..............................nordic..............................nordic.........................touring..........................alpin
..............................langgrenn.......................fjellski.........................AT.............................................
..............................track skis.............................................................randonee.................................
Heels?...................free..................................free.............................free or attached.........attached
Edges?..................plastic..............................metal..........................metal...........................metal
Need piste?..........yes...................................no................................no................................no
For uphill?............wax or scales...................skins...........................skins............................no uphill
-----------------------------------------> weight ---------------------------------------------------->
-----------------------------------------> width ------------------------------------------------------>
-----------------------------------------> boot stiffness ------------------------------------------->
-----------------------------------------> better at downhill ------------------------------------->
-----------------------------------------> worse at uphill ----------------------------------------->
Ook I can't edit it now... let me just post it again. I don't know what other people call fjellskis, any ideas?
Names..................cross-country..................cross-country.............cross-country...............downhill
..............................nordic..............................nordic.........................touring..........................alpin
..............................langgrenn.......................fjellski.........................AT.............................................
..............................track skis.............................................................randonee.................................
Heels?...................free..................................free.............................free or attached.........attached
Edges?..................plastic..............................metal..........................metal...........................metal
Need piste?..........yes...................................no................................no................................no
For uphill?............wax or scales...................skins...........................skins............................no uphill
-----------------------------------------> weight ---------------------------------------------------->
-----------------------------------------> width ------------------------------------------------------>
-----------------------------------------> boot stiffness ------------------------------------------->
-----------------------------------------> better at downhill ------------------------------------->
-----------------------------------------> worse at uphill ----------------------------------------->
Post edited at 09:33
In reply to annak:
>...I don't know what other people call fjellskis, any ideas?
There's been several attempts over the years to call them 'backcountry skis' in the French magazines & shops, but seems a marketing idea that hasn't caught on & in English is fairly meaningless (where do you use AT skis other than in the backcountry?)
ps where do my wooden 'fjell skis' with hard wood edges fit ? (I admit they are mostly used for decoration now but I have used them in the past)
>...I don't know what other people call fjellskis, any ideas?
There's been several attempts over the years to call them 'backcountry skis' in the French magazines & shops, but seems a marketing idea that hasn't caught on & in English is fairly meaningless (where do you use AT skis other than in the backcountry?)
ps where do my wooden 'fjell skis' with hard wood edges fit ? (I admit they are mostly used for decoration now but I have used them in the past)
In reply to Doug:
No idea, also I'm slightly unclear about whether telemark gets its own equipment or is just a mixture of the above, and I know there's a difference between langgrenn-classic and langgrenn-skating skis, and so on, and so on...
No idea, also I'm slightly unclear about whether telemark gets its own equipment or is just a mixture of the above, and I know there's a difference between langgrenn-classic and langgrenn-skating skis, and so on, and so on...
In reply to Doug:
I think that the distinction is intended to be made between types of nordic skis rather than with AT kit. Even so, 'backcountry' covers a lot of terrain where you wouldn't really want to be using AT gear. There are certainly a lot of Scottish hills where fjellskis can be much more efficient if you are interested in covering ground rather than skiing up to come down.
> There's been several attempts over the years to call them 'backcountry skis' in the French magazines & shops, but seems a marketing idea that hasn't caught on & in English is fairly meaningless (where do you use AT skis other than in the backcountry?)
I think that the distinction is intended to be made between types of nordic skis rather than with AT kit. Even so, 'backcountry' covers a lot of terrain where you wouldn't really want to be using AT gear. There are certainly a lot of Scottish hills where fjellskis can be much more efficient if you are interested in covering ground rather than skiing up to come down.
In reply to annak:
Exactly that. Taking the advice to get some downhill mileage before venturing off piste. Might try some XC stuff, though.
> Unless you're going for xc/downhill, in which case ignore me!
Exactly that. Taking the advice to get some downhill mileage before venturing off piste. Might try some XC stuff, though.
In reply to planetmarshall: XC skiing like you see in the olympics is fun but it relies on rolled out tracks as much as downhill on piste skiing. So your venturing into the wilderness feel is a bit limited as to where someone has made a track to follow. Those can be nice though! This was family skiing on one of the biggest swamp areas in Finland a few winters ago: https://www.instagram.com/p/W78KVBrvKG/
In reply to planetmarshall:
I've asked this question a couple of times on here and to friends who ski well. The answer has always been that there isn't really a shortcut, you've just got to get good on the piste, then off the piste.
I've been making time here and there over the last couple of years to get some time in on skis and I've been surprised with how quickly you can pick it up. Plus skiing is actually really fun - as a friend once said in response to this question, you just have to stop seeing it as something to be endured!
I've asked this question a couple of times on here and to friends who ski well. The answer has always been that there isn't really a shortcut, you've just got to get good on the piste, then off the piste.
I've been making time here and there over the last couple of years to get some time in on skis and I've been surprised with how quickly you can pick it up. Plus skiing is actually really fun - as a friend once said in response to this question, you just have to stop seeing it as something to be endured!
In reply to planetmarshall:
Ok, I have just come off the hill after a mornings ski here in the Pyrenees and read this post so here are a few personal thought after 35 years of piste and touring ski experience.
Whilst many climbers do manage to partake in ski tours with limited ski experience there is no doubt that being able to ski proficiently on and off piste makes the "touring" experience far more enjoyable and safer.
Whilst modern skis have enabled many more people to enjoy off piste skiing and the technique is broadly similar when skiing pristine powder, being able to ski the variable conditions normally found in a ski tour, ice, crust, deep powder, slush, grass, heavy snow etc requires a level of expertise normally only gained over a number of years.
If you can find a nearby dry/snow dome slope and have lessons. Not only will this speed your learning curve, your technical skills will improve much faster as well. Take every chance to ski whether it is in the Pennines, Lakes, Wales, Scotland or the Alps/Pyrenees. You cannot beat mileage on planks. Join a ski club as they often run cheap ski trips and have BASI instructors as members. Hire your kit to start with as you will change your ideas as you become more experienced and talk to lots of other people who ski tour for their thoughts. I have never had Nordic kit but I believe that you would be best served by AT gear. AT kit can also normally be hired in most good ski shops.
Once you are ready to buy your own gear you need to decide if you want to have a step-in binding like Daimir or a pin binding like Dynafit. (There are several different makes on the market so Google them) Nearly all AT boots will fit into an AT step-in binding but pin bindings require a specific boot. The main difference between the two types is weight. The pin binding is far lighter. I have both types and I have to say that I do not notice any practical difference when skiing downhill but a lot when going uphill especially when combined with a light boot. It is possible to have both types of bindings mounted on virtually any pair of downhill/touring skis. Downhill skis are far heavier, wider and stiffer than specialised touring skis and generally perform better on piste because of their weight and rigidity but are a pain to lug uphill. Specialist touring skis are lighter but less rigid and tend to vibrate when skied hard on piste but go much better uphill. The next part is to determine the length and width of skis. The length is dictated by your height and weight and the width by the type of terrain you intend to ski. Modern construction techniques have allowed skis to become shorter over the years and more and more people are choosing wider and wider skis as these perform better in deep snow but worse on hard/frozen terrain. The trend in the Alps has been for very wide skis coupled with a pin binding allowing reasonable uphill performance to access deep powder snow on day trips but on multi day tours you will still see medium width skis with both types of bindings. Here in the Pyrenees, conditions are different and a different set of rules apply.
Now, I appreciate that I have gone on a length and that you may well have dozed off but the major point of this tome is to get you to realise that there are many things to consider and that you will not know these things until you have achieved some reasonable ski legs and experience as well as seeking out all of the options. It can be a very expensive mistake so decide what type of touring you intend to do, buy some comfy/light touring boots that are Dynafit compatible and rent a variety of skis and most of all enjoy yourself.
Ok, I have just come off the hill after a mornings ski here in the Pyrenees and read this post so here are a few personal thought after 35 years of piste and touring ski experience.
Whilst many climbers do manage to partake in ski tours with limited ski experience there is no doubt that being able to ski proficiently on and off piste makes the "touring" experience far more enjoyable and safer.
Whilst modern skis have enabled many more people to enjoy off piste skiing and the technique is broadly similar when skiing pristine powder, being able to ski the variable conditions normally found in a ski tour, ice, crust, deep powder, slush, grass, heavy snow etc requires a level of expertise normally only gained over a number of years.
If you can find a nearby dry/snow dome slope and have lessons. Not only will this speed your learning curve, your technical skills will improve much faster as well. Take every chance to ski whether it is in the Pennines, Lakes, Wales, Scotland or the Alps/Pyrenees. You cannot beat mileage on planks. Join a ski club as they often run cheap ski trips and have BASI instructors as members. Hire your kit to start with as you will change your ideas as you become more experienced and talk to lots of other people who ski tour for their thoughts. I have never had Nordic kit but I believe that you would be best served by AT gear. AT kit can also normally be hired in most good ski shops.
Once you are ready to buy your own gear you need to decide if you want to have a step-in binding like Daimir or a pin binding like Dynafit. (There are several different makes on the market so Google them) Nearly all AT boots will fit into an AT step-in binding but pin bindings require a specific boot. The main difference between the two types is weight. The pin binding is far lighter. I have both types and I have to say that I do not notice any practical difference when skiing downhill but a lot when going uphill especially when combined with a light boot. It is possible to have both types of bindings mounted on virtually any pair of downhill/touring skis. Downhill skis are far heavier, wider and stiffer than specialised touring skis and generally perform better on piste because of their weight and rigidity but are a pain to lug uphill. Specialist touring skis are lighter but less rigid and tend to vibrate when skied hard on piste but go much better uphill. The next part is to determine the length and width of skis. The length is dictated by your height and weight and the width by the type of terrain you intend to ski. Modern construction techniques have allowed skis to become shorter over the years and more and more people are choosing wider and wider skis as these perform better in deep snow but worse on hard/frozen terrain. The trend in the Alps has been for very wide skis coupled with a pin binding allowing reasonable uphill performance to access deep powder snow on day trips but on multi day tours you will still see medium width skis with both types of bindings. Here in the Pyrenees, conditions are different and a different set of rules apply.
Now, I appreciate that I have gone on a length and that you may well have dozed off but the major point of this tome is to get you to realise that there are many things to consider and that you will not know these things until you have achieved some reasonable ski legs and experience as well as seeking out all of the options. It can be a very expensive mistake so decide what type of touring you intend to do, buy some comfy/light touring boots that are Dynafit compatible and rent a variety of skis and most of all enjoy yourself.
1
In reply to HeMa:
Cheers for the recommendation, by the way. Had a great weekend at Hafjell, got a bit of instruction and skied a few reds. Quite happy on my own now, just need more practice.
Wanted to go XC skiing at Nordseter but weather was lousy up in the mountains, unfortunately. Couldn't see a damn thing, and gave some Russian skier a lift back to Lillehammer who was carrying his skis down because the trails were impassable. Considering buying a set of XC skis for next time as they're pretty cheap.
> One of the Lillehammer resorts might be good... Easy to get to (flights to Oslo Gardamoen) and not far from there.
Cheers for the recommendation, by the way. Had a great weekend at Hafjell, got a bit of instruction and skied a few reds. Quite happy on my own now, just need more practice.
Wanted to go XC skiing at Nordseter but weather was lousy up in the mountains, unfortunately. Couldn't see a damn thing, and gave some Russian skier a lift back to Lillehammer who was carrying his skis down because the trails were impassable. Considering buying a set of XC skis for next time as they're pretty cheap.
Post edited at 16:47
In reply to planetmarshall:
Glad you liked it... the instructor wasn't Scotty by any change... he's a Brit after all..
> Cheers for the recommendation, by the way. Had a great weekend at Hafjell, got a bit of instruction and skied a few reds. Quite happy on my own now, just need more practice.
Glad you liked it... the instructor wasn't Scotty by any change... he's a Brit after all..
In reply to HeMa:
No, a young Norwegian chap called Casper.
> Glad you liked it... the instructor wasn't Scotty by any change... he's a Brit after all..
No, a young Norwegian chap called Casper.
In reply to planetmarshall:
>> I have little interest in on piste skiing, but I realise I need to start somewhere, so I'm not averse to learning to snowplough. I am fully versed in the art of Googling, but I'm still confused by the bewildering array of skiing equipment and techniques.
Some of the posts in this thread are good, & other are getting bogged down in semantics & the various names by which the gear is called!! So I will simplify:-
"X-Country pisted trail style":- generally these are long narrow skis with a camber on them & no metal edges Traditional style is length to wrist of straight arm held above head, with poles to armpit height (skating style is shorter skis & even longer poles). They are usually under 50mm wide underfoot, & they require a grip/propulsion area in the camber under the foot which is in the "kick zone". This can be either a grip wax applied to a smooth base, or a base which is cut like "fish scales" which doe not require a grip wax. When standing evenly on the skis on a hard smooth surface a piece of paper should be able to be pulled out from under your ski when the foot is. Transfer all weight to one ski & the paper should be gripped. That is the point of camber & kick zone to grip when weighted, but not grip & therefore glide when un-weighted. Boots & bindings are very flexible, old style is basic 3 pin & duck bill, most stuff is bar in toe area on sole of boot, & no duckbill. There is no fixing to lock down heel part of boot to ski so "free-heel".
X-Country off-piste/backcountry style:- Same as above but tougher, so skis up to 70mm wide under foot, metal edges on skis, & tougher versions of boots & bindings. Some more traditional 3pin bindings with additional heel cables locating back to the front 3 pin part. There is no fixing to lock down heel part of boot to ski so "free-heel".
Serious Telemark/serious back country:- Bigger & tougher than above. Skis more like downhill (off piste) & many are! No big camber, no kick zone, shorter lengths, wider, basically a downhill ski. As skis are now smooth base only, & no camber for kick zone, removable "ski skins" must be used to provide propulsion on the flat & uphill. Basically a fabric with a one way plush which grips one way & is smooth to glide the other way & has a good tacky adhesive to stick to the ski base, & tip & tail clips to retain on the ski. The boots are usually plastic boots like downhill but with a flex bellows built into the shell to enable front flex for "tele" position & aid walking (advantage over downhill & ski mtm boots). Bindings are usually duck bill fronts with pins removed & heel cables. Also NTN style. Still most have no fixing to lock down heel part of boot to ski so "free-heel". (some new expensive NTN versions have a full TLT/NTN heel setup). Some bindings will also have a ski-mtm style lockable free pivot built into the binding to enable better movement, glide & ascension. They may also have heel lifters which allow the boot to be horizontal when the ski is pointing uphill, to reduce strain on legs when climbing. The NTN set up does away with the duck bill & the boots are easier to walk in & fit crampons to.
Downhill standard:- What you usually see on the slopes, heels & toes locked down, big skis & boots, smooth bases, bindings do nothing apart from clamp the boot entirely to the ski. No way you can do the "telemark turn", or kick & glide etc.
Ski-Mountaineering set-up:- On first inspection it looks like a downhill set-up, mainly because on the downhill part it performs as good as. But this has the advantages of the Serious Telemark set-up also. So we have a toe unit which is either a pincer jaw with a separate rotating heel unit (TLT), or a downhill style with a frame which joins the toe & heel units & the whole lot pivots up from the toe. These bindings provide full lockdown of boot & also "free-heel" mainly for gliding along & ascension, however "telemark" turns can be done, but as the boots have no bellows flex point it is very difficult. Ski skins again are used to go uphill & along, & heel lifters also.
That is a brief "general" starting point on the main differences.
For Scotland, X-country trail gear is usually good for say around loch morlich, forests etc.
Off piste/backcountry stuff can get you into the easy rounded hills/slopes no problems. BUT this will be no steeper than Blue run descents as the camber & length of the ski work against you! (I have done hop telemarks down the Gunbarrel at CG on 210cm long Fischer E99 skis & NNN-BC bindings & hard work!!)
Serious Telemark/serious back country will get you everywhere else, black runs, very steep off piste etc, BUT you have to want to telemark, or be from a X-Country ski background as it will be more natural gear.
Ski-Mountaineering set-up:- This will get you everywhere & is easy to master the parallel turn & you can be taught the downhill side by any good downhill piste skier. You MUST learn the downhill on piste for safety, & most good off-piste skiers usually spend a day at the start of the season on piste to warm up. You will have to learn various versions of the snowplough & parallel turns to be able to ski off-piste. You will also have to learn the basics of X-country eg the kick & glide & the way to ascend.
However in all styles even the best will still revert to a "basic" snowplough if ski-ing on a dodgy snowpack at the end of a day with the rucsac getting heaver!!
I first learnt track trad (langlauf) style 33yrs ago, moved onto skate style (like the biathlons), then moved to the Highlands, and as not as many piste-ed trails here I took up Backcountry style, so still on cambered skis, but with metal edges etc. Then as a winter mountaineer I wanted to ski those nice slopes, so moved straight into serious telemark gear, big Ski Trab skis, big plastic Scarpa boots, big 7TM bindings, BD skins etc etc. The kit weights a ton compared to my X-Country stuff & cost many times more, but I can ski into Coire an t-Sneachda, put ski's on rucsac, fit crampons to boots & using ice axes climb an easy gully or the goattrack upto the plateau & the ski down Lurchers or along to Ben Mac etc...
Personally I would hire some gear from say Mountain Spirit in aviemore, & or book some time with a guide/instructor at G3 in Aviemore.
>> I have little interest in on piste skiing, but I realise I need to start somewhere, so I'm not averse to learning to snowplough. I am fully versed in the art of Googling, but I'm still confused by the bewildering array of skiing equipment and techniques.
> The Ski Tour Scotland website advocates Nordic gear for beginners learning in Scotland, which seems a bit more left field than everything else I've read - but I like the idea of lightweight gear. I have not seen anyone in Scotland used Nordic gear, though. And is "Nordic Gear" the same as cross country skis? Or just alpine skis with nordic bindings? As I say, thoroughly confused. Would be interested to hear from other opinions on this stuff, particularly from anyone who learnt to ski tour without being a competent downhill skier first.
> Andrew.
Some of the posts in this thread are good, & other are getting bogged down in semantics & the various names by which the gear is called!! So I will simplify:-
"X-Country pisted trail style":- generally these are long narrow skis with a camber on them & no metal edges Traditional style is length to wrist of straight arm held above head, with poles to armpit height (skating style is shorter skis & even longer poles). They are usually under 50mm wide underfoot, & they require a grip/propulsion area in the camber under the foot which is in the "kick zone". This can be either a grip wax applied to a smooth base, or a base which is cut like "fish scales" which doe not require a grip wax. When standing evenly on the skis on a hard smooth surface a piece of paper should be able to be pulled out from under your ski when the foot is. Transfer all weight to one ski & the paper should be gripped. That is the point of camber & kick zone to grip when weighted, but not grip & therefore glide when un-weighted. Boots & bindings are very flexible, old style is basic 3 pin & duck bill, most stuff is bar in toe area on sole of boot, & no duckbill. There is no fixing to lock down heel part of boot to ski so "free-heel".
X-Country off-piste/backcountry style:- Same as above but tougher, so skis up to 70mm wide under foot, metal edges on skis, & tougher versions of boots & bindings. Some more traditional 3pin bindings with additional heel cables locating back to the front 3 pin part. There is no fixing to lock down heel part of boot to ski so "free-heel".
Serious Telemark/serious back country:- Bigger & tougher than above. Skis more like downhill (off piste) & many are! No big camber, no kick zone, shorter lengths, wider, basically a downhill ski. As skis are now smooth base only, & no camber for kick zone, removable "ski skins" must be used to provide propulsion on the flat & uphill. Basically a fabric with a one way plush which grips one way & is smooth to glide the other way & has a good tacky adhesive to stick to the ski base, & tip & tail clips to retain on the ski. The boots are usually plastic boots like downhill but with a flex bellows built into the shell to enable front flex for "tele" position & aid walking (advantage over downhill & ski mtm boots). Bindings are usually duck bill fronts with pins removed & heel cables. Also NTN style. Still most have no fixing to lock down heel part of boot to ski so "free-heel". (some new expensive NTN versions have a full TLT/NTN heel setup). Some bindings will also have a ski-mtm style lockable free pivot built into the binding to enable better movement, glide & ascension. They may also have heel lifters which allow the boot to be horizontal when the ski is pointing uphill, to reduce strain on legs when climbing. The NTN set up does away with the duck bill & the boots are easier to walk in & fit crampons to.
Downhill standard:- What you usually see on the slopes, heels & toes locked down, big skis & boots, smooth bases, bindings do nothing apart from clamp the boot entirely to the ski. No way you can do the "telemark turn", or kick & glide etc.
Ski-Mountaineering set-up:- On first inspection it looks like a downhill set-up, mainly because on the downhill part it performs as good as. But this has the advantages of the Serious Telemark set-up also. So we have a toe unit which is either a pincer jaw with a separate rotating heel unit (TLT), or a downhill style with a frame which joins the toe & heel units & the whole lot pivots up from the toe. These bindings provide full lockdown of boot & also "free-heel" mainly for gliding along & ascension, however "telemark" turns can be done, but as the boots have no bellows flex point it is very difficult. Ski skins again are used to go uphill & along, & heel lifters also.
That is a brief "general" starting point on the main differences.
For Scotland, X-country trail gear is usually good for say around loch morlich, forests etc.
Off piste/backcountry stuff can get you into the easy rounded hills/slopes no problems. BUT this will be no steeper than Blue run descents as the camber & length of the ski work against you! (I have done hop telemarks down the Gunbarrel at CG on 210cm long Fischer E99 skis & NNN-BC bindings & hard work!!)
Serious Telemark/serious back country will get you everywhere else, black runs, very steep off piste etc, BUT you have to want to telemark, or be from a X-Country ski background as it will be more natural gear.
Ski-Mountaineering set-up:- This will get you everywhere & is easy to master the parallel turn & you can be taught the downhill side by any good downhill piste skier. You MUST learn the downhill on piste for safety, & most good off-piste skiers usually spend a day at the start of the season on piste to warm up. You will have to learn various versions of the snowplough & parallel turns to be able to ski off-piste. You will also have to learn the basics of X-country eg the kick & glide & the way to ascend.
However in all styles even the best will still revert to a "basic" snowplough if ski-ing on a dodgy snowpack at the end of a day with the rucsac getting heaver!!
I first learnt track trad (langlauf) style 33yrs ago, moved onto skate style (like the biathlons), then moved to the Highlands, and as not as many piste-ed trails here I took up Backcountry style, so still on cambered skis, but with metal edges etc. Then as a winter mountaineer I wanted to ski those nice slopes, so moved straight into serious telemark gear, big Ski Trab skis, big plastic Scarpa boots, big 7TM bindings, BD skins etc etc. The kit weights a ton compared to my X-Country stuff & cost many times more, but I can ski into Coire an t-Sneachda, put ski's on rucsac, fit crampons to boots & using ice axes climb an easy gully or the goattrack upto the plateau & the ski down Lurchers or along to Ben Mac etc...
Personally I would hire some gear from say Mountain Spirit in aviemore, & or book some time with a guide/instructor at G3 in Aviemore.
1
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