UKC

I had a day free on Sunday in Scotland, so I thought I'd walk up a hill. There was a lot of new snow everywhere, and I thought it all looked very fine until I got about ten yards from the car and discovered that my feet sank in up to mid-calf at every step. This made for quite tiresome going.

Anyway, I remember when I was a kid seeing pictures of Lapps or someone trekking across the frozen wastes with tennis racquets on their feet, and that these were called snowshoes.

Are these still a thing? Were they ever, indeed? A bit of googling shows me that lots of outfits sell such things, but I've never heard of anyone using them for winter hill-walking in the UK. Is that right, or does everyone use them when it's like Sunday except me? I didn't have any crampons, but I can't imagine they help with the sinking-in problem.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Been using a pair for a few years now. Made yesterday almost enjoyable at times.
Think we are still in the minority as no-one else on the two hills had any.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Never seen anyone in the UK using them, but snowshoes are definitely a thing here in the Pacific Northwest. There's been 250" of snowfall so far this year in the mountains closest to Seattle, with a current depth of 100", so they're pretty useful.

Skis are more fun, though

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

They are used in the UK, but normally after folk have been introduced to them elsewhere and seen how useful they can be. I have a pair of MSRs and they are very useful in fresh or unconsolidated deep snow, and the crampony bit works surprisingly well on very steep slopes.

There are just some things we don't 'do' in the UK for outdoor pursuits - snowshoes, lightweight walking shoes, sit-on sea kayaks, tarptents etc. Some we don't do because they don't work here, but I've often wondered why snowshoes didn't have more of a representation in deep, Scottish snow...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

This dislike of snowshoes in the UK positively puzzles me. Even in powder snow on small gradients I see more people with crampons than with snowshoes. The terrain and conditions seem to be especially designed for snowshoes, but some people will go out of their way to suffer knees deep in crampons. I suppose they come back to the office on Monday talking about their amazing crampons epic. Back in the Pyrenees we have a saying: if you see someone in crampons in the snow, it must be a Brit.

In reply to drolex:

There is most certainly a contingent of British hillwalkers who want to don crampons as soon as they hit the snowline, regardless of how firm/frozen/consolidated that snow is.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You can't get to most of the remote good climbing here in the winter without snowshoes / a ski touring setup. They are the norm and not the exception.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I have some and use them in the UK. If there is deep snow and I am on my own, I am often more inclined to ski, but if I am with non-skiing friends, then snowshoes are the way forward. Great bits of kit

In reply to James Rushforth:


Really?! Surely Patey and Smith and Fowler & co didn't don snowshoes/skis first thing in the morning, did they? Their books seem very quiet about it.

jcm

In reply to girlymonkey:


Yeah, this is another thing I don't really understand - how cross-country skiing would work climbing up your typical Scottish irregular slopes covered in snow. I don't get the impression that the general punter public (meaning mainly me, but it's a wider phenomenon, I think) has terribly good access to information about the most efficient ways of getting around hills in winter. Probably just my idleness in failing to inform myself.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Certainly if you want to access any of the ice climbing at the head of Vallunga, Val Travenanzes, around Civetta etc you won't get far in deep snow without them. (Of course this year you could just stroll in wearing crocs if you so desired).

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Judging by the number of snowshoe tracks I've seen this winter they're the in thing at the moment. There were lots for sale in Braemar mountain sports the last time I went in. If you can't or don't want to ski then they must be the next choice for deep soft snow.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

On a slight tangent it always baffles me how the UK climbing community don't associate winter climbing with skiing (I guess because there just isn't that much snow in Scotland). But in the Alps / greater ranges it's the most efficient way of moving, it's the safest way of crossing glaciers and it's absurdly fast to descend. Unless you're climbing something really extreme soft ski boots are fine for climbing.

Put a photo of someone halfway up a mountain with skis on and it gets hit by a barrage of low votes and 'this is a climbing website' comments. Replace the skis with crampons and suddenly everyone is happy. All very strange...

In reply to James Rushforth:

Because everyone knows, skiing is for toffs.

*ducks*

In reply to Chris Craggs:


Are they? Sunday's combination of a blizzard the day before and getting out on the hill the next day can't be *all* that uncommon, can it? I don't get out much in Scotland in the winter, but my impression is that generally speaking it has a reasonable amount of snow on the hills quite a lot of the time, no?

jcm

In reply to James Rushforth:
Oh, I see. Sorry, I didn't understand what 'here' meant. Well, yes, of course, I know they use skis etc. in the Alps. I was asking whether people use similar devices here (as in, 'here in the UK') and if so whether some people used snowshoes (and if not why not). The answers seem to be that some people do but not many, and the reason is mainly habit rather than any technical issue.

jcm

In reply to Mike-W-99:

Speaking of yesterday being almost enjoyable, was it me or did the weather forecast's promised 'clear, still day' not exactly arrive? Cloud at 1200 feet, stiff breeze bearing snow, seemed to be more like it. Or was that just where I was?

jcm

In reply to Dell:

I can live with been a toff

Though whilst piste skiing is obviously a very expensive sport ski touring doesn't have to be - especially if you buy second hand. And no need to fork out for the lift pass... Earn your turns and all that. You do need to invest in a heater for your van mind

In reply to Dell:


I grew up on a council estate, drive a truck for a living and I love skiing, never been called a "Toff" before.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=58492

Yikes. Here's a fellow walking the same hill who could have benefited from some sort of snowshoe. I didn't have it as bad as him.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

We use them all the time in winter out here in Japan... There's so much snow most years that you simply wouldn't be able to get to a lot of places in the mountains without either snowshoes or skis, and for many places skis just wouldn't be practicable due to the terrain, so it's snowshoes or bust. I like them a lot, they're good fun and really useful...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I've been put off them by the price, around £100 for a few days a year max. But I've just seen Decathlon has some for around £40. Anyone know if they are any good?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


As in, you don't understand the mechanism which allows you to ski uphill?
There are different styles, but most people (I think) use alpine touring skis. These have bindings which have a releasable heel. When you are going uphill you attach a skin to the bottom of your ski which will allow the ski to slide forward (so to slide up the hill), but won't let it slide back (so you can't slide back down the hill). You do this will the heel released so that it can lift. When you go downhill, you remove the skins, clip the binding down to become a normal downhill binding, and ski down in a normal fashion. It's great, my favourite way to get around the hills

In reply to stevieb:

Both of us have the Decathlon snowshoes and they seem to work fine. Mine have the heel riser bars which makes steep stuff easier.

I've not used more expensive ones so can't compare / contrast etc.

In reply to richprideaux:



I agree totally. I have recently returned from Romania were I used snowshoes extensively for the week on a variety of terrain. I can see lots of applications for them in the UK and I am currently looking to purchase a pair.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Exactly as girlymonkey says. Bit more information at the start of this article: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=7140

In reply to stevieb:

I've a set of the Decathlon shoes from years ago and they've been fine whenever I've used them - notably more flex that the MSR equivalents and less convenient binding systems but work well enough.

Cheers,

Stu

In reply to girlymonkey:

No, I understand what a skin is. It just seems like something that's designed for smooth regular slopes, rather than the sort of more broken ground with rocks and heather and whatnot pointing out and constant little steep bits which is more typical of Scotland in my experience. Obviously I'm wrong, though. I guess it all flattens out rather once you have enough snow.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

It is certainly better with deeper snow where it is more even! However, Scottish skiers are very skilled at dodging the odd rock and heather patches It is not uncommon for a Scottish skiing day to start and end with carrying your skis as there is often not enough snow to the car park.
When it's good, though, it's great! This was in the Ochils a couple of weeks ago :-D
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156491201245694&set=pb.747310...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


It's not that uncommon, but normally theres also a lot of wind re-distribution so that it's easy enough to follow blasted areas and not worry. We were out on Derry Cairngorm yesterday for example and I can only think of a couple of short sections where they might have been useful. not enough to justify carrying them for the rest of the day unfortunately.

From Derry Lodge back to the carpark at Linn of Dee there were snow shoe tracks, but can't think that they would have been much advantage - depth of the snow shoe track vs depth our our track was pretty much the same.

A few folk out on x-country skis too by the tracks, possibly more efficient in the conditions.

I have had days where they've been excellent and saved me so much energy slogging through unconsolidated mush, but it's not been that common.

Given my bias is not to take them unless sure i'll need them, I could probably have got a few more worthwhile days out of them though!

Cheers,

Stu

Snowshoes are very popular in places like the Vosges, Jura & Massif Central, all with snow cover much like Scotland. I've always been surprised they haven't become popular, especailly as they aren't that expensive for a basic pair. Although personally I prefer to ski

In reply to Doug:

I am surprised that you don't see more folk out with them - some days do scream out for a way to dodge post holing your way up the hill. Still the majority of days I have out in winter, they wouldn't be all that useful, or would be dead weight in my pack while on a route so get left behind. Flip side of their lack of use here, is that I'm sure they are worn on days they really aren't needed elsewhere. Near my folks in the Pyrenees, you frequently see people snowshoeing on well compacted tracks that are absolutely fine just in boots. Similar mentality to "crampons on at the snowline regardless of need" perhaps?

I think they should be more common here, and there definitely a good number of days that they'd be useful, but not to the same extent as elsewhere in Europe.

Just started getting more into touring so can see that becoming a much more common mode of transport for me!

Cheers,

Stu

In reply to StuDoig:


I was under the impression (never actually tried it) that snow-shoeing was still hard going for the first person cutting a trail (albeit much better than sinking to your waist in snow) but once a snowshoe trail has been laid (with partial compaction) then it was a lot easier for subsequent snowshoe users, although this could be inhibited by walkers trying to walk on the gently compacted track and punching holes in it. I may of course be talking complete rubbish :P

In reply to andrewmcleod:

In my quite limited experience of using them in the alps in winter, I'd say your impression is correct. Breaking trail in deep fresh powder is hard work, even with snowshoes, as you still sink quite deeply. Taking turns at the front is then the usual norm. Once the snow's been compacted it's okay and unless they completely destroy it, a few holes where walkers break through usually won't make much difference. If the snow's had time to compact in the sun, then breaking trail with snow shoes is obviously much easier.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I use them.

You have to by law in certain parts of the US. You will certainly get a bollocking off other hikers in areas like the White mountains where its advised, but not law.

Post holing on deep snow risks injury and damages the soil below so they'd much rather you use snowshoes or ski's when the snow gets deeper than 6 inches.

In the Adirondacks on NY its law that you have to use them when the snow is deeper than 8 inches. Of course if its solid neve they don't mind if you then use common sense and didn't.

I've never seen them used in the UK but there were times they'd have been very handy. Great fun but a hard workout.

In reply to Doug:


I bought mine for use in Les Vosges, but have also used them for a walk into routes in The Lakes and a few of years ago for a saunter along the Leeds Liverpool canal. They don't often come out, but can be of great assistance on occasion.

In reply to girlymonkey:



Any good photos of ski mountaineering in Scotland would be welcomed by the SMC, particularly if they illustrate well a good touring route, as they are currently producing a new edition of Ski Mountaineering in Scotland. You can get in touch with the Publications Manager via the Publications page of their website.

In answer to the general query, I've used both snowshoes and skis for approaching climbs in Scotland, though I often find that if it's deep enough to do so the climbs are buried, but on occasions it has worked well. Snowshoes are obviously the thing to go for if you can't ski as very little knowledge is needed to use them. Whether they are worth the cost or not depends on how often you get out in winter. Most skiers will probably only use their skis a handful of times a year if truth be told, though I've had two really good days out on mine so far this year - and that's based in the Lake District!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I can see the benefits and I know a couple of people who use them. But for me I'd probably only use them half a dozen times a year, so I've never sought them out. I'm not much of a fan of buying specialist gear - one of the big things I like about hillwalking (and easy mountaineering up to a point) is you don't need much stuff. That said I've used my crampons once in the last 5 years and I always carry those with me on the higher hills if there's much snow about. So a pair of snowshoes would be a similar investment.

Having said I don't like gear collecting, I do actually fancy trying a bit of ski-touring. Cairngorms and the more rounded eastern hills nearby are perfect for it in the right conditions.

In reply to malky_c:

You just don't need them that much in the UK. I used to be out in Scotland Wales most weekends through the winter and never really needed them bar the odd day a year for short sections.

In much colder areas, like the NE USA, we get feet of powder that doesn't go through the freeze thaw cycles it almost always does in the UK within a few days, so the powder can stay powder.

Here most years, even this year, they will get used.

As said they are easy to use and pretty safe just to grab and head out with. My first ever day with them was a 5 miler in the dark up a 4000ft peak in the Adirondacks, the next day I did almost 20 miles up a 55000 foot peak. You can run in some of the newer lighter ones too.

In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:

Do you still sell those funny Australian ones Stephen? They looked a clever idea but also like mutant Teva sandals! I like my MSR ascents on anything icy or steep. The vertical cookie cutter frame doesn't skate at all like tubular framed ones do.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I have the decathlon ones and have found they can mean getting out for a day on the hills which would otherwise be impossible. Sometimes the weather is lovely but the amount of snow means walking is not an option. You won't use them much so I don't think the expensive ones are worth it unless you plan to snow shoe abroad

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Aye, trail breaking always sucks, just a lot less in snow shoes if it's deep, plungy snow, my ref was to trails that are so well compacted you don't sink in, even in boots alone rather than trails where theres been some traffic, but still plungy for boots alone.

Fist time out in Scotland in snow shoes was hilarious - trying them out on boxing day on the mighty bennachie, following a burn line. I was still sinking up to mid calf or even knee depth occasionally so decided they were a load of rubbish, undid the bindings, stepped off and immediately face planted as I disappeared face first into waist deep (at least) snow. How everyone else laughed......
Next lesson was how do you get your snow shoe back on, from lying face down in deep snow.

I do rate them when conditions are right, but think you don't need them as often as folk might think in Scotland. A couple of winters I've been really glad of them though!

Cheers,

Stu

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Funny you should ask that..

Sunday, our first day in aviemore, seemed like a great day to try snowshoeing. It was a hard but really good day.

We hired them, and for only £15 for the day I wouldn't bother to buy as an infrequent user.

For all but one of us it was first time using them and we plodded around the hills above Glen Feshie for about 7 hours without seeing a footprint, leave alone another person.

They were hard work but pretty easy to use if you know what I mean. Next time the snow appears, hire some and have a go. I hate poles for walking, but they worked well with the snowshoes.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Met some snowboarders using them away from the ski areas.

They came down quite a steep slope of deep snow, stuck the Snow shoes on ( they seemed to have somedevice to stop them sliding backwards on a steep slope) They headed back up at quite a good pace .

In reply to Wainers44:

I hate poles for walking, but they worked well with the snowshoes.

You can just swap the baskets on your poles in winter for the much larger ones that are better for deep snow, they spread the load and stops your feet sinking in as much, even without snow shoes ( which I have never tried)

In reply to TobyA:


Yowies - yes but no. Yes we still have some but we are selling them off cheap as we have to import them from Australia and have sold ca 1 pair in 2 years so we probably won't order them again. It's odd as they sold quite well for a while and my wife and I have a pair each which we have used for approaching icefalls in France with good success. I've also used mine in Scotland a few times when I've been climbing with a non-skiing pal. I think that they're great but I guess the UK demand is very small and they're really aren't up to the MSR ones for serious snow shoeing, but then again they aren't as bulky so are easy to pop in your sack when climbing. Mind you, if you can get a half decent pair in Decathlon for £40 it might explain why sales have slumped!

In reply to Jim C:

Modern snowshoes are essentially a 4 point crampon strapped to your foot which has a 'skirt' around it. They're joined together by an articulation point at the widest part of the foot so your foot can rock naturally whilst the skirt stays parallel to the snow. They are brilliant, I was able to 'front point' up a slope I couldn't even walk up in summer.
The best thing about them for me (a non skier) is that you can essentially do summer Alpine walking trails in winter when there's no-one there. I've done some around the 1000-1600m mark in Austria and Germany, walking through the pines covered in a fairytale blanket of snow was absolutely magical. The snow was so deep I couldn't bottom out a walking pole and without a snowshoe on I post-holed up to my groin.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I have just replaced the studs and teeth on my TSL Rando 225s, and am dying to get out on them again. I was taken off-guard by the couple of days heavy snow we had at the end of Nov when I was on the Lawers range, and ever since we have not had sufficiently deep snow to warrant them IMO, especially with the snow transportation due to wind.

Will be on 'em as soon as it makes sense......

In reply to Dell:



Or becasue everyone who can't be bothered to learn how to ski is jelous of those who don't spend their time buried in powder?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Up here in North Scotland snowshoes are used more & more by those in the know. All the outdoor shops sell some, snowboarders use them for off piste stuff a lot until they can afford a split board set up.

As for X-country stuff, good for low level & easier high terrain, but useless for descending anything harder than blue run off piste due to camber of ski. Also no use to use for ski-ing in to climbs as you cannot use the ski boots with crampons for climbing as too soft a flex, unless you bring climbing boots also

Really you need either a Ski-mountaineering set up or a heavy duty telemark set up. Both have plastic boots with a sole stiff enough to take decent 12point crampons, then strap ski's & poles to rucsac, crampons on boots, & ice axes in hands & away you climb...

I've been x-country skiing for over 32yrs on various grades of set-ups in various countries & me & my mates do winter ski-mountaineering, here in Scotland. I have a telemark setup which also has a tour "free pivot" & DIN release. Red run off piste in wind blow crud no problem for the ski's. Can't do very high grade ice stuff with ski's on rucsac, but boy is it fun when topping out & someone sees you. You can see their jaws hit the ground!!!That's what I do for fun!!