UKC

Any ideas what areas and or routes would be decent for a few days to get some more ML summer QMDs in the log book in the current conditions? I have some time off work so might as well put it to use.

Its my understanding that routes on snow would not count and most of the lakes and highlands have a lot of snow on the summits still.

Also does anyone know what the "rules" are on doing QMD's solo i cant find anywhere that says you must do them with people but i imagine that a good portion should be?

In reply to LewisMcMahon:

solo is fine.. tbh if you struggle to get the number you probably dont have the experience.

Its just experience which counts.

Snow is fine, especially typical welsh/lakes winter. As a summer ML you will encounter snow.

In reply to LewisMcMahon:

Whilst taking groups intentionally out on snow is out of remit for ML (S) it is all good personal experience and will show your assessor that you have a broader range of experience.

Just make sure to choose your routes carefully checking conditions and leaving a route card with someone responsible, especially if going on a solo trip.

In reply to LewisMcMahon:

http://www.mountain-training.org/walking/skills-and-awards/mountain-leader/...

In reply to LewisMcMahon:

I did asked my instructor during the training about the snow. Response was that if you need crampons and axe it is Winter QMD, but if you are walking on occasional snow without any extra gear compared to summer it counts as Summer QMD.

In reply to Nordie_matt:


Wrong. Taking groups out with the intention of using axe and crampons (or even carrying them) is out of remit. Unfortunately the assocatition that snow means crampons has taken hold over the past few years; it is often the case but not always. A perfectly nice day out can be had in to snow sans metalwork if conditions are right. However, I get the impression that's not how things are at the minute...

To the OP: whilst not contributuing to the total of QMDs for ML(S), winter days out still look good in your logbook, and more importantly, are good fun. If you only want to go out to fill your logbook you should consider if you *really* want to be an ML(S) IMHO - a good ML should enjoy being in the hills!

In reply to ianstevens:
There does seem to be an overbearing desire to use crampons as soon as the white stuff is down which puzzles me greatley, I followed a set of crampon tracks from Grizedale tarn up onto Dollywagon a few weeks back in wet melting snow with grass at the sides of the path while wearing fell shoes then proceeded to run over to Helvellyn and never once felt like a slip was possible whilst passing people trudging up with crampons and axe in hand, I did have mine in the bag but they never even saw the light of day.

In reply to Dark-Cloud:

Agreed. I wonder if the increase in awareness of conditions, coupled with an increase in participants and a culture shift promoting being over-cautious is the reason? I've received questioning looks and passing comments in the past whilst flitting around in fell shoes in the snow from people in full winter kit, essentially along the lines of "bloody dangerous that".

In reply to ianstevens:


Sorry I disagree with you, if the snow is on the hills, then it is effectively out of remit for Summer ML work, how an ML can make an assessment of conditions and whether or not they require the use of crampons etc from the valley base escapes me-

From the MTA:

The term 'summer' is used to describe any conditions not covered by winter. Winter can be defined as the time when snow and ice prevail or are forecast. Neither term can be defined by a portion of the year. The Mountain Leader scheme does not provide training and assessment in the skills required to cope with the special hazards of winter conditions, particularly snow and ice. The Winter Mountain Leader scheme provides specific training and assessment for winter conditions in the UK and Ireland.

Notice it does not say "but if you dont need ironmongery then its alright by us"

In reply to ianstevens:

I would have said the inverse, a decrease in the awareness of conditions and relevant experience to assess the conditions, i.e. it's snowing, that must mean crampons....

In reply to ianstevens:


It seems to be coming from the top down (i.e. I've heard it from training providers) as a response to the number of accidents where people have put on their crampons too late and slipped on ice into danger. It seems to be the lesser of the two evils to teach novices to put crampons on earlier than later. I'd hazard a guess that it's been working too.

In reply to SenzuBean:


There's a subtle difference between earlier and at the car park.......

In reply to Nordie_matt:

Nonsense! There can be snow on the Ben all year round!

If you're intending to go for a walk and there is some low angle slopes with patches of snow then that's totally within remit of summer ML!

In reply to Nbrain:

That's a different scenario to looking up at a peak with snow from say 700m, and thinking, "well I don't reckon we'll need crampons, so it will be alright"

Encountering snow patches on the ground is very different from knowingly leading your group onto snow covered terrain. My initial response to the OP was in regard to the conditions prevalent in Scotland/The Lakes now, would you say these conditions are within ML(S) remit?

Again from the MTA :

"The term 'summer' is used to describe any conditions not covered by winter. Winter can be defined as the time when snow and ice prevail or are forecast. Neither term can be defined by a portion of the year."

Snow patches are not equivalent to prevailing(i.e. winter) conditions.

Ultimately it is down to semantics, and up to each ML to make their own decisions. If you have any links to sources that are unambiguous and can indicate conditions where a Summer ML is within remit taking groups out in similar conditions to those in the highlands/Lakes now, then I would be interested to read them.

In reply to Nordie_matt:

"Ultimately it is down to semantics, and up to each ML to make their own decisions."

Which is pretty much the same as for the other old chestnut of scrambling and ML remit. I might well understand 'prevail' in in relation to snow and ice in a different way to someone else!

I had a good number of snowy winter walking days in my log book when I went for my ML(S) assessment, some of which would not have been out of place in an ML(W) logbook. It all adds to the experience and can only be a good thing.

To the OP - my logbook had a variety of walks solo, as equals in a group, and as a group leader or assisting in group leading. Going solo shows self-sufficiency and the ability to make decisions by yourself, which is a necessary skill for a group leader. The key thing, imo, is to get a variety of experience in different areas, different types of terrain, different weather conditions (a couple of my entries noted route changes due to adverse weather conditions, as well as evidence that I went out a lot in minging conditions as well as benign ones - this was noted by the assessors). Get out there as much as possible, enjoy it, build up your experience and go into assessment with a lot more than the minimum number of QMDs - your experience will tell at assessment. Good luck!