UKC

The son of a friend is quite interested in climbing. So far we've done bouldering and I've bottom roped him up some routes. Would it be safe for him to belay me if he's attached to a ground anchor? I was thinking of getting a grigri or equivalent for him. He's a pretty slight 10 yr old and i'm 6 foot 7 and 90Kg!

In reply to HP:
The question is would you trust him even if he was heavier?

I'd say no

In reply to HP:
I did this with my kids. Ground anchor tied to the same karabiner that holds the grigri, anchor rope tight right from the off. While they are already tied in for following, there is no load on their harness and they will not be pulled.

Next, loads of grigri drills, first lowering only, then falls from the first or second bolt, to make sure they keep their hands off the device in case of a fall.

Lowering remains the most critical step. For the first few years I put some brake in the rope strand going up to the anchor as well (ATC or prusik, essentially giving me an option to arrest myself if my daughter had decided to pull the lever.

CB


edit: repeat the drills first before each climb, later before each session.

In reply to HP:

CAN a 10 yr old safely belay me? - Yes
WILL a 10 yr old safely belay me? - Probably not every time. Climbing version of Russian Roulette!

In reply to HP:

Maybe, but it's a bit irresponsible to put them in that position IMO. What if they do drop you and you die/end up disabled? They then have to live with that.

In reply to HP:


I thought you might hook quite a few with this, but unfortunately your last sentence gives the game away.

Not a bad effort, but that last bit of slopiness means you have to get back under your bridge.

In reply to JayPee630:

Nicely put. HP's bones/life , 10 year old's lifetime regret/guilt.

I only let my kids belay me when they were about 13/14, even then it was only a last resort/ token gesture, usually climbing stuff I would have soloed.

Once at the climbing wall, I wanted to use an in situ top rope but only had a 10 year old and a Basic Ascendeur on hand.

Fixed a diminishing loop to me by tying on one end and using the clamp on my waist loop, 10 year old pulling in the slack with bare hands.
Worked fine and safe but I was bemused by the clusterf**k of bodies diving in the rescue the situation.
All they saw was the 10 yo, bare hands holding a rope and no visible belay device.
She has still not forgiven me for that one

In reply to HP:


Having taken kids of that age climbing and knowing how a 'slight' 10-year-old measures up, I'd say the most emphatic 'no'. That's not to say it couldn't be done or that you won't conceivably see someone somewhere doing it but I'd consider it I'll-advised (and that's putting it mildly) to give that sort of responsibility to a 10-year-old, no matter how clued up they were. I'd echo the comment above - what would the effect be on him if something went wrong?

In reply to HP:




It is a judgement call. At 90kg I would say that even bottom rope belaying you indoors with a ground anchor indoors is borderline even if he is attentive and alert (assuming the wall will let you which they probably wont) as he is still going to get banged around a bit and might not judge the right pressure on the lever to lower you safely. Anything more ambitious than that is dodgy without someone older in attendance in which case they might as well be doing the belaying. The experience of the kid and their attitude is something to factor in but even though my son is very attentive and been climbing since 5 I didn't have him belaying me leading till he was 12 and I'm 72kg. If you are looking for a handy way to lead climb sort out a self belaying system

In reply to HP:

I was only thinking of him bottom roping me at the wall. To be honest I don't think I'd ever be confident that he'd be paying attention 100% of the time.

In reply to HP:


Age doesn't come into it, then.

In reply to HP:

I think, physics aside - as they can be worked round, it depends if the 10yr old could mentally cope if they messed it up and dropped the climber. That's the clincher for me, we all hope mistakes aren't made but I think to belay takes the awareness that they are made, that 'why did I do that?' moments do happen, it's what makes us check ourselves and each other. Surely the ability to truly grasp that forms part of informed consent?

Each 10 yr old is going to be different but it's a big ask.

In reply to HP:

The Edelrid Ohm http://www.edelrid.de/en/ohm/ might make it a bit safer when it comes out.

Still probably not a good idea with someone that young.

In reply to HP:
Q - Can a 10 yr old safely belay me?

A - No.


P.S. You've put this in the 'Wall' forum. I think most commercial walls would chuck you out if you tried it.

In reply to HP:

No.

If you have to ask the question, you already knew the answer.

In reply to HP:

I belayed my dad when I was 8 and he was 14 stone. We only did diffs and severes but I felt confident to do so at the time. (He never fell though)It probably depends on the individual- some kids are easily distracted etc.
Sarah

In reply to Rick Graham:

Thanks for that It gave me a good laugh.

I belayed my 7 year old today at the wall leading for the first time. I couldn't get a clear picture on my phone for shaking so much. Time I got to lower him the first time I was just about having nervous breakdown.

He did four so my stomach had returned from my mouth by that time but him belaying me might of made me go over the edge!

In reply to HP:

The legal age of criminal responsibility is 10 years.

In reply to HP:

Can he belay you? Yes.

Should he belay you? No. Because if he dropped and hurt you, he is not old enough to be held responsible, but old enough to understand the consequences.

FWIW I started belaying when I was 11 and I'm pretty sure I had an adult supervising, and holding the deadrope behind me ,for a good couple of years.

In reply to sarmarks:

Nothing to do with you feeling confident. I'd say it's irresponsible to have an 8 year old belaying someone without close supervision and back-up.

In reply to HP:


+1 for using "bottom roping" correctly - always confusing when people call bottom-roping, top-roping.

In reply to HP:

In my experience a 10-year-old, however keen, will be more easily distracted than an adult - you can't rely on a child of that age managing sustained concentration. The wall where I climb will not let them belay unsupervised before 14, and that feels right to me.

In reply to flopsicle:


I think this is key point. Everyone is different, age is only one factor and the not the most important one. Attention span, good at listening, aptitude to understand what is required etc..

To be fair there's quite a lot of adults that can't be trusted to give a safe belay too.

Definitely not.

A climbing partner of mine weighs 90-95kg and I was completely shocked how much harder that makes it to belay. The heaviest person I had belayed in the prior 10yrs was more like 80kgs. Even the weight on my leg loops is really uncomfortable, almost painful, esp if he hangs for any length of time. In fact I picked up a hamstring injury last year which I think was exacerbated by this issue. Outdoors he's v considerate and always clips direct to a bolt in between working gos etc. I weigh 69k, had more than 10 years experience when I started climbing with him, and am no weakling.

In reply to HP:
Ultimately your decision (and hopefully his), but 2 observations:

The attachment to the ground anchor has to be really good. A small person getting moved around by an unexpectedly loaded system could be quite nasty for his spine - he would need to be snug on the anchor and it would have to be aligned to the anticipated load.

I don't understand why the GriGri is felt to be the definitive device for this scenario. The bigger the climber, the more the device tends to be quite "binary" in the way that it works - either released or locked with a great deal of "touch" required to find that balance point between brake hand and release handle which allows a smooth lower.

Personally I've always found that with practice and training, a suitably "grippy" friction device is more intuitive to anyone for conducting a safe lower. The friction is organic and variable, and can be felt and thus controlled. It won't catch a fall for you, but I'd suggest that this whole scenario requires a high standard of training for the young belayer, perhaps belaying another large climber with you in attendance alongside?

Hope this helps, alternatively (and probably better) find him a similar-sized amigo!

In reply to HP:


No.

In reply to HP:

Can a 10 year old belay? yes, just like an adult, they can belay if they have the right temperament and the right training.

Can the 10 year old that you are thinking of, belay YOU at a climbing wall? Probably not. With the difference in weight being so significant, I'd say that you would need to have the belay device directly attached to a fixed anchor with the rope in the line of anticipated force and with the belayer not attached to the system (apart from holding the rope of course). I don't think that set up can be achieved in a typical climbing wall.

In reply to Rick Graham:




I remember us chatting at the bottom of Castle Rock South, as you idly tied on and then looked around for something big and safe to belay your daughter to. The biggest safest thing that came to hand was Mick Tolley so you tied her to his harness so she could belay you while he belayed me. He was offended on several levels that you trusted him with your daughter! We laughed about it often. Would that we still could.

By the way when am I gonna get that book back to you?

In reply to JayPee630:


Crikey, 25 likes now, I thought we were told that on these technical questions the likes were a good measure of people passing on decent views?

Anyhoo, it's difficult to tell if this is people just being grumpy old gits, or, it's people who have so little experience they just don't know or if it's a criticism of the prevailing culture.

I'd go for so little experience they just don't know.

The BMC and the ABC already have a scheme in place that teaches kids age 7 and upwards to belay unsupervised, it takes a few hours and is taught by people who have done an onerous 2 day CWA award to become One Knot Wonders.

This just built on the work walls had done for 20 years. It's called NICAS.

If the problem here is psychological then the BMC and ABC and all those walls are irresponsible, OTOH if the difference is the risk then if the risk can be managed surely that makes it OK regardless of the differences in partner size?

In reply to HP:


I don't know why but this problem regularly comes up with a 10YO, not older and not younger.

One obvious way to take the pressure off the belayer would be to put a twist, or 2 or 3 in the rope before starting off. It used to be quite common, especially outdoors, to set up a top rope and use this to teach kids, with caution. Walls now, I think, would baulk at such rope on rope action but if they use bell ringing for the younger kids (and just about every wall does) then that is far, far worse for their ropes.

I'm not sure why you would want to use an assisted braking device, in my experience the problem with these is that they need to be left open and the rope controlled by sliding the hand down the dead rope, an advanced technique, not suitable for beginners. I've seen more people dropped like that than any other method, because they couldn't hold the rope and just watched as their dad hit his arse on the floor.

The Smart and the MegaJul are 2 newer devices which allow you to open the lock whilst retaining 2 hands on the dead rope, much better. The Matik I haven't used but the problem with the Eddy was unlocking it after it had locked, not suitable for kids.

The Smart also has the additional feature of making it much harder to get skin caught in it, which is the other major cause of problems in my experience. The Smart can be used and functions as a tuber too, so retains the principal of teaching friction, rather than giving the impression of button pushing which you get with a grigri.

In reply to HP:

My son started belaying me when he was 10 using a traditional style belay device as it was easier for him to feed the rope out. After a couple of sessions I realised I was effectively soloing and got him using a grigri. That gave me a bit more confidence but I still felt as though I was soloing a bit. However, I persevered and got friends to watch and coach his belaying and anchored him to the ground whenever possible and, as time went on, he has become a very good sport climbing belayer.

He is now 15 and all of my adult climbing partners are very happy for him to belay them, often in some pretty dodgy places, such as wave washed caves at Swanage.

Were there difficult times? Yes sure! I was placing a young boy, now a big teenager, in a position of some responsibility and both of us were probably a bit scared at times, especially when lowering off meant it was not possible to hold the other side of the rope.

To belay at walls, he had to wait until he was at least 14 before he could do a competence test. That was fair enough, walls have a lot of liability to deal with.

We have had many great trips away together and I trust his belaying as much as any adult, well actually a lot more than a lot of people I see belaying at crags and walls.

Obviously all throughout this he has been climbing and progressing himself. I haven't just been training a belayer .

In fact this half term just gone, he was out climbing with other adults as I couldn't get any time off work last week. Dropping him off and seeing him heading to the crags with other climbers was a strange mixture of pride, uncertainty and envy.

TJB.

In reply to winhill:

As you know my daughter's on the nicas scheme and the supervision is pretty hot. In no way is she placed in the same position as she would be if I tied her down and figured - yep we're good to go. As much as I adore my little bundle of laughter she has the attention span of a senile gnat, supervision and her being held where she is till she sharpens up are both required. (Granted she's only 7 - but then 7 upwards was part of your point).

I do think it varies from child to child, but equally, I think using the existence and curriculum of NICAS to give 10yr belayers a big fat generalised tick is a bit of a stretch.

In reply to winhill:

Kids are taught to belay each other but they are not unsupervised. The groups are always supervised by a qualified adult and often the kids are in groups of three with another kid tailing the rope to provide backup.

Outside the group scenario an under 14 kid is signed in by a competent climber to climb or belay under supervision and they can't be effectively supervised by someone who is off the ground.

The physics of the situation with small kids belaying each other is also different because with the friction in the system, assuming the belay device is threaded correctly, a light 10 year old kid weighing 20kg or so is not going to drop like a stone even if the belayer messes up and lets go the dead rope. Sometimes you need to actively feed rope to get a particularly light kid to start moving when lowering. A 90kg adult is a different deal entirely.

In reply to winhill:
If you're going to criticise people for giving opinion on subjects they are not experienced in then don't do the same I the next paragraph.

You're so far off the mark regarding NICAS. 'Unsupervised' belaying does not take place for a long time.

The CWA is not a tick box exercise to teach people to become one knot wonders. It is a basic award (no need for an SPA at the wall after all) but guarantees knowledge, experience with different groups and different walls and competence regarding safety. All on the day the assessment is taken obviously. But like the driving test. You're not the finished product when you pass but you should be safe and have the skills to learn and adapt.

If you step back from the tick box approach to NICAS it provides a very logical, and motivating, framework to work through to develop a child into a knowledgeable, safe, climber who enjoys their sport.

FWIW in my experience 10 is too young even if they know what they should be doing. Attention spans at that age are too short, too easily distracted. However I'm open to the fact that all children are different and some may have the maturity to deal with it.

More of an issue for me is that it's likely to be an un-enjoyable, stressful, experience for the child if they have to catch a 90kg adult. That sort of experience can put kids off the sport.

In reply to winhill:

'The BMC and the ABC already have a scheme in place that teaches kids age 7 and upwards to belay unsupervised, it takes a few hours and is taught by people who have done an onerous 2 day CWA award to become One Knot Wonders.

This just built on the work walls had done for 20 years. It's called NICAS'.

Just factually wrong on so many counts I'm not going to bother. I'd guess you are one of the 'people who have so little experience they just don't know'.