UKC

I've recently found myself with the elusive combination of being single and having plenty of disposable income (prior to this, the two have never coincided) but I don't know how long it'll last so I'm planning on making the most of it starting ASAP. My question is, would it be foolish to try to solo Mont Blanc via the Gouter route on my first trip out to the Alps?

I've got almost 15 years' experience of walking, scrambling, mountaineering and climbing all over the UK and Ireland and have been up and down stuff like Striding Edge, Swirral Edge, Sharp Edge, Crib Goch etc more times than I can remember in both record gales and the very worst of winter conditions. I'd never really call myself a climber but I've comfortably solo'd HVDiff, winter grade 3 and led short pitches of grade 4. I'm also very physically fit. Despite this, and despite having researched a MB ascent via the Gouter route (including equipment) to within an inch of its life and planned an itinerary down to the hour, I still wonder if soloing it first trip out there is stupid, maybe because I've not really heard of anybody else doing that. It could be that the people I hear of are too risk averse or it could be that it's for a good reason.

Any objective wisdom appreciated.

In reply to Foxache:

What will you do if you fall into a crevasse?

In reply to Foxache:
I've got to second the above ^ Seen too many people get swallowed by crevasses who were on their own on glaciers.

The Alps are also very different to the UK... Altitude, glaciers as mentioned etc...

In reply to Foxache:

You said you were 'Single and plenty if disposable income '

Make a will before you go ( and don't forget your friends on UKC )

In reply to ankyo:


Is this likely on the Gouter route? All of the information I've read on it says crevasse risk is very small, certainly much, much smaller than the risk presented by rockfall in the Grand Couloir.

In reply to Foxache:

You sound like you have already made your mind up.
Why not try something of similar size
but with less traffic and danger for your first trip.
Adventures can be anywhere.

In reply to Foxache:

I'm not quite sure what you mean by mountaineering in UK. But judging by what you say and your profile it would be stupid to try and solo Mont Blanc, however easy in the right conditions, if you have no Alpine experience. Use your new time and wealth to learn the game properly and get your priorities and head in order. Discover what real mountaineering is about and enjoty it, not by some ridiculous idea which will impress no one if you do it and leave someone to enjoy your new wealth if you come to grief on something that is not a real challenge for a real mountaineer.

In reply to Foxache:

Go with a guide?

In reply to Foxache:

It's horses for courses.

You'll have to be the one to decide whether you're thoroughbred or a fairground donkey?

In reply to jcw:


Maybe mountaineering was a poor choice of word then, but it's irrelevant when I've also summarised my experience.

Getting my priorities and head in order?! I'm also not sure where this idea that I'm trying to impress someone is coming from. Your comment reads as snarky and unhelpful. Whether or not it was intended that way I don't know, but when I'm basically asking what the risks are and how these risks would be increased doing it solo and/or on a first trip out there, saying I need 'Alpine experience' or I need to 'discover what real mountaineering is', 'learn the game' and become a 'real mountaineer' is so vague as to be meaningless.

At what point has one learned the game and become a real mountaineer? What Alpine experience should be gained before attempting something like the Gouter route? You say yourself that it's easy in the right conditions. Why would it then be stupid for me to try to solo an easy route in the right conditions?

In reply to kwaidy:





I honestly haven't made my mind up at all, thus why I thought I'd ask for advice on here. If someone puts forward genuine reasons why it'd be a bad idea then I'll more than likely do exactly as you suggest (although surely a busy route could also be considered safer in many ways as, should something go badly wrong, there'll be more chance of someone being able to assist or at least raise the alarm).

So far there seems to have been a lot of 'yeah it'd be stupid, get more experience' but with no explanation why it would be stupid or specifically what experience I should get.

In reply to Foxache:

My first trip to the Alps was Mont Blanc via Gouter route solo and with similar experience in the hills to yourself. Without prior acclimatisation too, I might add. Foolish? Perhaps. But there wasn't a single moment of peril encountered by myself (aside a bit of rock fall in the Grand Couloir but that'd hurt either way). I set off with the mindset that if I ever felt uncomfortable at any point then I'd happily turn around and head back, but found it straight forward.

There were however two chaps who fell off soon after the couloir on the way up to the Gouter refuge the same day, which was sobering. They were a roped duo, and both perished.

In reply to Saldi:


That's certainly an option, but why?

Someone mentioned crevasses but there doesn't seem to be any evidence to suggest they're much of a risk (in fact they barely even get a mention on UKC's own article here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5784). Others have basically said 'don't do it because it'd be dangerous' or 'get more experience' but with no explanation why it would be dangerous or specifically what extra experience I need.

It's a PD graded route; a very long, snowy grind at altitude interspersed with some scrambling, some rockfall danger and some exposed sections where the weather can be critical. It doesn't seem unreasonable that somebody with my fitness and experience could solo such a route on their first trip out there as long as they were acclimatised, properly equipped and sensible enough not to take chances with the weather. If I'm wrong then tell me why rather than just saying it'd be stupid/too dangerous/I need more experience/I should get a guide.

In reply to Foxache:


Why not?
Loads a money no experience, guides can give good experiences

In reply to Saldi:



You seem to have missed the point of this thread. It isn't for me to justify why I shouldn't take a guide, it's asking if there are any good reasons why I shouldn't tackle the route solo.

You also seem to have missed this bit:
'I've got almost 15 years' experience of walking, scrambling, mountaineering and climbing all over the UK and Ireland and have been up and down stuff like Striding Edge, Swirral Edge, Sharp Edge, Crib Goch etc more times than I can remember in both record gales and the very worst of winter conditions. I'd never really call myself a climber but I've comfortably solo'd HVDiff, winter grade 3 and led short pitches of grade 4.'

And this bit:
'It's a PD graded route; a very long, snowy grind at altitude interspersed with some scrambling, some rockfall danger and some exposed sections where the weather can be critical. It doesn't seem unreasonable that somebody with my fitness and experience could solo such a route on their first trip out there as long as they were acclimatised, properly equipped and sensible enough not to take chances with the weather. If I'm wrong then tell me why rather than just saying it'd be stupid/too dangerous/I need more experience/I should get a guide.'

In reply to mrphilipoldham:


Well judging by the replies so far, you could probably find plenty of people to tell you that it was foolish but none of them would actually be able to explain why...

In reply to Foxache:

You've missed the point of my reply. It might be fun to go with a guide. No personal criticism implied

In reply to Saldi:


Frustration got the better of me. I think I just need to go to bed...

In reply to Foxache:

Indeed, many of whom have likely never actually been and done it for themselves.

In reply to Foxache:

I wouldn't say foolish although it's not ideal

I done it solo a couple of years ago although I was reasonably well acclimatised and had a couple of alpine seasons under my belt which included some soloing.

as for the route there is not 'normally' crevasse danger but you do cross a large section where there is potential above the Gouter hut. the Grand couloir is not really safer in a group than it is solo as far as I can see. I crossed it at night in a stable season and it only took seconds.

I'd recommend finding a partner or trying to build up some alpine experience first just so you can get a feel for things like altitude, glaciers and the increased size and severity of everything.

Personally I'm not interested in getting 'guided' up summits but I am a big fan of going on courses and getting instruction to gain the skills to do things independently.

Honestly what I would probably do in your situation is book an alpine intro course of some kind and then plan some time for an ascent of Mont Blanc after said course. it will give you some good alpine experience and some acclimatization.

In reply to Foxache:

Possibly foolish but not necessarily stupid.
Well within the scope of the abilities & experience you describe.
I did something similar 30 years ago, wandering up the ordinary route on the Ortler in a weekend, hitchhiking from summer school in Bressanone.
Went back four or five years ago with a mate who duly fell in the same crevasse on both the way up & down. Somewhat sobering.
I would go after a long period of good weather, benefiting from the trail put in others, would avoid staying in the Gouter but would aim to be above it early in the morning, & would expect to be roundly abused in the event of anything going wrong.

In reply to Foxache:


Well certainly not when you've never done a route in the alps yet?

Alpine experience should be gained before attempting something like the Gouter route?

Ideally, yes - especially if you're going solo.

Why would it then be stupid for me to try to solo an easy route in the right conditions?

Because there's no such thing as an 'easy' alpine route.

The alps have a way of dealing with arrogance and ego in a rather harsh and often terminal manner.

But hey, it's your call, and if it all goes tits up, then it all goes tits up. That's the nature of alpine climbing - even for experienced mountaineers.

In reply to Foxache:

If you want to solo do some lower peaks first. Initially pick rocky ridges. Perhaps something at 3500m then something like the Lagginhorn. Then, if you are happy an easy, smooth glacier with a good track (Breithorn?). Then if you are still happy MB.

Glaciers are deceptive - there *are* crevasses under the snow. If you are on a path followed by hundreds you will be unlucky to fall in but some people are unlucky. Your choice. Also the bigger risk on the Gouter route is probably the grand couloir crossing and ascent to the hut.

In reply to Foxache:

Like other posters, my immediate reaction is that it’s not a great idea, but I admit it isn’t easy to articulate why I think that, at least not in a technical sense – there probably isn’t an objective technical answer of the sort you’d like. Part of the reason is altitude, scale and seriousness – any number of traverses of Crib Goch don’t quite prepare you for being a long way up a very big mountain with a long and sometimes complex way to get down in case of difficulty. Unless you’re prepared to wait for settled perfect weather there’s always a risk of serious storm high on Mont Blanc. And I’ve learnt to distrust bland assurances that such-and-such a glacier presents little or no crevasse risk; a solo descent into a crevasse is liable to be terminal. Seriousness is partly in the mind, partly in changing conditions, rather than in straightforward technical gradings.

But if you’re proposing MB as the culmination of a first visit to the Alps, when you’ve had the chance to acculturate yourself to alpine scale and conditions, and to acclimatise yourself to altitude, then I certainly wouldn’t say a solo ascent would necessarily be foolish. But by that point you’d be in a much better position to judge that for yourself.

As you’ve seen, it’s probably not a good idea to post this kind of enquiry to UKC late on a Saturday night …

In reply to Foxache:
Having experienced falling through a snow bridge into a crevasse I was very gald to have been roped up.
Go on an alpine course and learn the basics especially if you intend to continue visiting the alps.
These guys are excellent
http://www.frostguiding.co.uk/
Have been on two holidays with them, well worth the money

In reply to Foxache:

Hey there Foxache, lucky you to be able to make plans like this. I think you're maybe getting some grief because your question is not that easy to answer, and the folk who would say yes, go for it, there's no real reason not to, don't want to read about the death of a British climber in the alps later this year. I went up the Gouter route in 1997 with one of my brothers, having failed the previous year. There's so much for the Alpine first timer to think about and we made every mistake in 1996 you could think of. We carried too much gear, another of my brothers didn't check his gear and his crampons kept falling off because he hadn't fitted them properly, it was -20C and my other brother got frostbite that lasted in his foot for months.

Then the terrain you'll cover on this route, which is easy but deadly if you slip or fall and can't immediately stop yourself. The weather can change really quickly and your snow plod up a well marked path becomes survival in a whiteout very high up. The wee ridge after the couloir to the Gouter hut is steep, and I was so knackered on the way down, didn't fancy down climbing it and we went down by the grand mulets route. I would advise that as a solo climber you would have to go back down the Gouter ridge route to the Tete Rousse hut. On the grand mulets route, you'll cross snow covered crevasses and the massive seracs where my brother posed for a photo (impressive photo but indicative of grand stupidity) fell over the next year and killed at least six people. Whatever people say about the Gouter route being easy, it's also a high mountain route that should be given utmost respect.

You've got all the necessary requisites from your description of yourself that you could do this route if you don't get too ill, too tired; if you do get good weather and the snow conditions are good. However, I say you should think long and hard about it ( as you already are ) as Mont Blanc will be around for a while yet. Have a look at some of the guided packages for Mont Blanc and see what their itinerary is and try and make up something similar yourself if you're determined to go and do it alone.

The year we did it there was a Spanish guy going up solo, dressed in tweeds, with a long wooden alpenstock and canvas back pack and my brother and I worried about him all the way up, at least until the point we passed him sitting just off the worn footpath by a pool of his own vomit. We stopped to talk with him to see if he was okay, he had no English or French and we had no Spanish. We were mightily relieved when he said he was going back down and we watched him make his way back down the route until he was out of sight. It's the weirdest thing, going up is exhausting, going down is like eh going down and is easy but you still can't slip at points.

Lastly, to most of the folk who post here, the summit of Mont Blanc is nothing to talk about. To me and my brother it remains one of the most knackering, physically and mentally, experiences of our lives. It is also one the best. So after all that, I hope I've given some appreciation of why people are wary of cheering you on in your endeavours. Just because it's well within your capabilities doesn't mean that you should go ahead and do it.

Let us know what you do do. The Alps are truly awesome and give a lifetime of memories. If you do get out there, enjoy yourself and safe climbing.

Tom

In reply to Foxache:
Go with a guide.



Glaciers move all the time so no one can tell you that such and such a route is safe or that there aren't any crevasses. Just because someone didn't fall in a crevasse last year doesn't mean you won't this year. The risk might be small but there is still a risk. The easiest way to mitigate that risk is to rope up to someone else, two others is even better. Nothing you've said about your experience so far suggests that you have done any moving together roped up, a skill that takes time to get the hang of. The Alpine environment is very different from the mountains of Britain, the scale, altitude (especially on Mont Blanc), the weather are all things that catch out beginners every year. Going with someone who has experience of these things and of safeguarding beginners in this environment is one way of making your climb safe and enjoyable.
I've climbed Mont Blanc several time by different routes, not by the Gouter route though. The first time I did it was in 1983 by the three monts route, as we descended the bossons ridge we came across a body lying in the snow. We called a helicopter and she was flown off the mountain to Chamonix, unfortunately she was pronounced dead on arrival at the hospital.

Thanks; some useful, well-balanced replies and definitely food for thought. Of course if I were to do it and it went wrong there'd be a lot of 'we told him so', 'he was stupid', 'he was arrogant' even if it was purely down to a chance event like rockfall. People always like to reassure themselves that it could never happen to them. If I were to do it and all was fine, the nay-sayers would say I was stupid anyway and put the success down to luck. If I were to go out to the Alps and come to grief on an 'easier' mountain, that apparently would be above criticism as I was at least following this arbitrary, unquantifiable process of getting 'Alpine experience'!
In light of everything I've heard and read (a lot over the past 10 years) and what's been said on here, crevasse danger is the only one that concerns me because it's the only one I can't mitigate alone other than sticking to well trodden paths across the Tete Rousse and on the Dome du Gouter, which is by no means foolproof. Given my fitness, experience, kit and planning I don't see how any of the other risks are worth worrying about any more than they would be over here. I wondered if by starting this thread someone would think of reasons I'd missed, but nobody has been able to put forward any to show otherwise.

In reply to Foxache:

It's not something I would do, certainly if I hadn't been to the alps before. That said, people do solo in the alps. If you're in any doubt why not play things a little more safe for your first trip and when you go back you'll be in a slightly more informed position to make such decisions.

I refer you to this article:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=7563

The mountains don't really seem to give a monkeys about how much experience you have sometimes.

In reply to Goucho:








That reply was in response to JCW's post. I didn't say the Gouter route was easy in the right conditions, he did.

This term 'Alpine experience' is very vague though. I could spend 10 years in the Alps never doing anything more taxing than can be found in the UK and rightly say I'd got a decade's worth of 'Alpine experience' but it wouldn't really mean anything. There's no ego here and I'm perfectly willing to accept there are gaps in my experience that must be filled, but I'm trying to find out specifically what.

In reply to thom_jenkinson:

That's some scary shit.

In reply to Foxache:

Yea, you'll have no one to sit in the pub with and reminisce about that ascent of MB in 2016. Find yourself a partner in crime, and enjoy.

In reply to Foxache:


In your case it's not, because you haven't got any.

In reply to Foxache:

Several things come to mind in terms of the recommendation to gain some experience before tackling Mont Blanc solo on your first alpine trip.
- As someone has mentioned, ensure you are acclimatised by tackling other routes first, ideally including at least one 4,000 metre peak. ( Obviously crevasse risks on these )
- Learn to judge conditions, in particular interpreting weather forecasts and freezing levels as they change night and day and how these will impact on different sections of your route.
- Learn to judge for yourself, by direct observation, the local signs for weather changes. Mont Blanc is particularly exposed to bad weather fronts and storms that can arrive very fast. Unlike the majority of the time in the UK, these storms are more likely to involve much stronger winds, much lower temperatures and will at the very least stop any possibility of progress and sometimes retreat.

As others have said, I would stack the odds in your favour in terms of an enjoyable and safer ascent. This could be by either doing some other alpine routes first or, quicker, join a course to get the knowledge and ensure you have all the appropriate skills to then be able to climb Mont Blanc via the Gouter solo. With that caveat, you could enjoy a solo ascent in your first season if you wished.

Enjoy

In reply to Foxache:

I think I am less experienced than you and I would do it. Which probably means you shouldn't

I'd definitely prefer to go with a partner though (wife or a mate) if I could, not least for company, mental support (because on long but easy high altitude routes this is likely to be the hardest part) and to reminisce as somebody else already mentioned.

Also, perhaps don't focus so much on MB itself and organise an epic Alps trip of at least a couple of weeks with that disposable income. Maybe do a course with someone like Frost Guiding as also mentioned above, to learn the ropes, climb some other more exciting stuff and maybe pick up a partner for your second week doing your own thing.

All being well then have a crack at MB. When I went I was actually very happy climbing the other MB (de Cheilon) near Arolla instead as my first PD route after a week on a course. It was awesome!

I hope whatever you do, that you have a memorable and fun trip

In reply to Foxache:
I've soloed the odd alpine 4000er and been up MB a couple of times, though each time with partners. Personally there are occasions when I feel it's worth accepting the inherently greater risks of soloing for the sake of the psychological thrill or the intensity that solitude brings - not that you'll experience this on MB! Given that, I'd say MB via the Gouter route is quite a good choice: you'd have to be extremely unlucky to fall down a crevasse on this. (Standard warning: bad luck happens!) If you're set on soloing then it's fairly pointless learning about crevasse rescue, but you would want to make sure you were practised in ice axe self-arrest. And I'd be very conservative in judging your weather window: I've been unduly optimistic (aka reckless) on occasion and I was always glad to have company - even if they were cursing my judgement!

In reply to Foxache:




That statement really takes the biscuit, You've read a few bullsh*t articles on the internet and you know it all, all these people who've been climbing in the Alps for years know Jack Sh*t. You're coming across as a prize tw*t.

In reply to Foxache:
. Given my fitness, experience, kit and planning I don't see how any of the other risks are worth worrying about any more than they would be over here.

Stone fall is a *lot* more of a concern in the Alps than here and the Gouter route is particularly prone to it. Your sentence above indicates you don't really get the nature of things in the Alps. Honestly, try a few smaller less serious, less pressured things first and see how you get on.

In reply to Foxache:

I think, if you're beuing honest about your experience, then you're fine.

The only query would be crevasses - but there are ways to reduce that risk also.

In reply to OwenM:


That's seriously unwarranted.

I would agree with him that the key risk is crevasses - and this can be mitigated.
The Gouter throws stones - but being fast is useful (as is going early enough that most are frozen in).

I think he's served far more "apprenticeship" than you're giving credit for. He's never claimed to know it all - the OP asked for advice.

You are, as you say, coming across as a prize tw*t.

In reply to Foxache:
I see where you're coming from, but it's a different beast. I went via the same route with similar experience to yours with a guide. The altitude proved not problematic, but as other threads have discussed, it's an issue. You just don't know where and when altitude sickness may happen. Technically pretty easy, but it's a slog and you may die if you have an accident or become ill. If money's not the issue, have a guide.
And to add.
If this is purely to get a woman out of your system, just get another one and be safe. Take care

In reply to JJL:

If someone with the background of goucho was giving me advice Id be all ears.

Owen's being a bit blunt perhaps but that doesn't mean he's entirely wrong.

In reply to Goucho:


You seem to have this habit of paraphrasing/cherry picking bits of replies that fit whatever you want to say regardless of context...

Simply telling someone to 'get alpine experience' is vague as per the example I gave. It's totally subjective and could mean virtually anything, as per the example I gave.

In reply to Foxache:

Mainly having been climbing in the Alps. He whole thing is "bigger", not just physically, but in every respect - hotter, colder, wilder, more unpredicatable, crevasses, stonewall, weather. It really isn't enough to read about it or be experienced in the UK.

You might get on just fine with all this solo on the first occasion and love it. Or you might not. There is no way to tell, hence the general advice to go a bit easy.

In reply to MG:



The point I was trying to make was that none of the other risks would really be mitigated by partnering up. Stonefall is going to happen regardless.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:



It's not a f*cking pissing contest, ok? Tons of people on here have 30 years of alpine TDs under their belts.

Owen's post wasn't "blunt" - it was rude and, given the OP's experience, misjudged.

In reply to OwenM:


That statement really takes the biscuit. You've done a few bullsh*t climbs in the Alps and you know it all, anyone daring to ask someone to be specific or daring to say that some of their UK experience would still be relevant abroad knows Jack Sh*T and deserves to be deliberately taken out of context and then verbally abused by some self-righteous, desperately insecure keyboard warrior. You're coming across as a prize tw*t.

In reply to Foxache:



OK, even though I don't normally try and give advice to people wearing headphones playing their own voice and opinion back to themselves, I'll smash my head against the wall one last time.

If your profile is up to date, then your UK experience is hardly worth considering in an alpine context. In fact to be brutally honest, it's hardly worth considering in the context of UK climbing.

Irrespective of what you've gleaned from Google, the alps are big and filled with many many aspects beyond just difficulty. Reading between the lines, you seem to be putting an awful lot of emphasis on your physical fitness and prowess.

Unfortunately alpine climbing is as much about the head as it is physical fitness.

Judgement, awareness of scale, distance, snow and ice conditions, weather - bad weather can hit Mont Blanc very very quickly, and trust me, getting caught in a storm above 3000 metres on the Gouter will make anything you've experienced on Crib Goch or Striding Edge look like a day on the beach at Abersoch in comparison. Of course then theirs the whole issue of aclimatisation. Just because you're physically fit doesn't mean you'll automatically aclimatise well. Also, the effects of altitude can hit you at anytime during a climb - it's not linear or predictable.

So basically what people (including myself) are advising - which is what you started this thread to ask for isn't it? - is to get a few other alpine routes under your belt under the guidance of someone who has alpine experience so you can learn from them, so you are better equipped to then go and do your solo of the Gouter, and probably enjoy it much more.

But to be perfectly honest, I don't really give a f*ck either way.

In reply to JJL:

what makes you think i think it is?

my experience isn't much different to the OPs. perhaps a little less winter climbing but a bit more trad, and i've actually been to the alps, on one of martin moran's courses.

i've also got an ambition to climb MB, though not solo

if i'd come on here to ask the question the OP posed, and goucho gave me advice, i'd listen

In reply to Foxache:
>m

I still wonder if soloing it first trip out there is stupid, maybe because I've not really heard of anybody else doing that. It could be that the people I hear of are too risk averse or it could be that it's for a good reason.


I've only been to the Alps 4 times and even then only tackled modest objectives and will never forget the attack on my senses when I walked out of the tunnel at the top of the Aiguille de Midi. The size of the peaks, the vastness of the glacier, the wind rattling across the arete. The steepness of the drops either side of the arete, the narrowness of the arete. The number of people going up and down. Nothing prepares you for how big everything is. I felt really sick that night in the Cosmique refuge despite the satisfaction of having comfortably climbed the Cosmique arete but the next day I climbed Mont Maudit. I looked across at Mont Blanc and knowing it was a good 300 metres higher was glad I didn't have to make the extra effort to climb it.
If you've never climbed in the Alps it's worth getting the experience with a guide, as I did on that occasion, or with a friend who has alpine experience .
Your question really answers itself.
Soloing Mont Blanc on your first trip is probably over ambitious and the reason your research doesn't show many examples is because I would imagine very few people have done it.
It's not the place to find out you can't handle the altitude or can't get out of a crevasse.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:



What is it with this misguided view that some people are beyond questioning? At no point have I not listened to anybody with experience on here, but I'll be buggered if I'm going to simply bow down before someone and not dare to question anything they say or ask them to elaborate. I've no doubt that Goucho (and probably 95% of everyone else on here) has forgotten more about alpinism than I've learned from all those years spent reading 'bullsh*t articles' but that doesn't mean I shouldn't ask someone to be more specific or tell them they're being vague.

I seriously don't know what has happened to UKC. I'm sure it didn't used to be like this, some old boys' club. Owen wasn't being a bit blunt was he? Really? A bit blunt? Would you say the same if he spoke to you/your mrs like that? Me stating that some of my UK experience would still be relevant abroad, and that some risks are just as big whether you're on your own or with a partner doesn't warrant some miserable, elitist keyboard warrior with a major chip on his shoulder giving me verbal abuse. If only people would abide by that old rule of never saying something over the internet that you wouldn't be happy to say to someone's face there'd be so much less chest beating and c*ck swinging. If people had nothing to contribute they just wouldn't say anything at all.

In reply to Foxache:
i guess i'm just not the only one who formed the impression that you had already decided the answer you wanted to hear, and then didn't seem that interested in anyone who offered an alternative point of view.

that seems to have rubbed some people up the wrong way.

no matter. i hope you have a great trip and whatever you decide to do, its a success. fwiw if it was me, i'd try to get partner and do it by one of the other routes- the voie normale from the italian side is the one ive got my eye on- but neither time or money are on my side just now...

edit ps- i'd echo wanderer's comments about the difference between UK hills and the alps- the scale and steepness, even on PD routes, is daunting, and i found being in positions where a trip or stumble would be very serious for hours at a time mentally draining. trips to the pyrenees, and, to be honest, even the andes, hadnt prepared me for that. i was very glad to be guided.

In reply to Foxache:
I assume you would be doing some other stuff to acclimatise and see what the Alps all about before doing Mont Blanc. I'd be more concerned about you doing that on your own than about Mont Blanc itself; while the Gouter is probably as reasonable a solo objective as any big snowy peak, I'd struggle to recommend a sensible and safe solo training/acclimatisation programme for an a alpine novice.

In reply to Goucho:

Why couldn't you have just said all of that to start with then?! Why wait for me to repeatedly ask you to elaborate before you do but then make out I'm the one in the wrong for seeking clarification on 'get some alpine experience'?! In between patronising, paraphrasing and misquoting me you've just given exactly the kind of advice I was after in the first place, and yes I am grateful for it, and yes as a result of that and the other useful advice I won't be trying the Gouter solo on my first trip to the alps (not that you give a f*ck either way).
Don't make out I'm arrogant. Don't make out I'm blinkered. You're deliberately misinterpreting what I've actually said to paint that picture and it's the very people who claim to know the most who have made it such hard work by being so f*cking cryptic as if their knowledge must be hard-earned rather than freely given.

This thread has clearly run its course. More the fool me for even starting it. In future I'll stick to bullshit articles and Google. A sincere thanks to all of those who patiently replied with some really useful advice, including you Goucho.

In reply to Foxache:


So let me get this straight, you've a ton of experience in the UK mountains yet, you've never come across the term alpine experience?

If you don't need a guide/instructor, stop asking the questions you'd ask a guide/instructor.

Do me a favour, go, have fun. But shut up whining!

In reply to Foxache:
I'm wondering if your preoccupation with soloing is borne of necessity.

In reply to Zoro:


No you haven't got it straight. At no point did I say I'd never come across the term 'alpine experience'.


Oh don't I need a guide or instructor then? Was part of the purpose of this thread not to establish that?


Do me a favour and actually bother to read and understand the thread that you're commenting on. Being smug and patronising doesn't really work when you're wrong.

In reply to Removed User:


It is. I have a reputation for asking questions and it seems to really upset some of the more sensitive folk.

In reply to Foxache:

By ASAP do you mean now?

Make sure you are avalanche aware. It can be quite bad because of heavy winds and a lot of fresh snow. Going on feet in winter is quite difficult. Nothing like mountaineering in UK. Skis are actually the way to go.

Crevasse danger on Gouter route is very small, but it's present. If you are comfortable with idea of falling in to one and dying then it's okey to solo. I used to be in my early twenties. Nowadays I rope up even from Midi station to Cosmiques hut. Personal choice really. Same as avalanches.

In reply to Foxache:

I haven't read all of the replies here, but I did notice your comment that:


and I would say that that's a very bad mindset to have. If you're soloing you need to be completely mentally self-reliant.

To your question: assuming you're thinking about going up and down the same way (and are not for example thinking of the traverse to the Midi) then crevasse dangers are pretty minimal, I think. (But you could still fall down one ...)

Have a good trip whatever you decide, but give Mont Blanc plenty of respect: on a nice day, the voie normale might seem like a pleasant stroll - but, in bad weather, the best alpinist in the world could die up there.

In reply to nutme:




No I just meant this year. Re-reading my first post it could admittedly sound like a bit of a boast from someone trying to run before they can walk, whereas I was just trying to say that I've got what is, based on past experience, a limited window of opportunity of maybe this year (and next year if I'm lucky). Generally it isn't long before some commitment or expenditure comes along.

It was never the plan to rush anything for the sake of it though and as much as I'd hoped to have everyone say it wouldn't be foolish to go out and try it this year, weighing up what advice has been given I'm going to just go out for a week and try to get a feel for it all on something safer and easier. If towards the end of the week I feel confident about giving it a go, if I can get a space in one of the huts and if the weather forecast looks promising (three big 'ifs') then I can always try it, but I'm no longer seeing it as my main objective and if it's not right then I'll leave it. Despite what some people have been saying, it's never been some blinkered obsession. It has always been a strong ambition ever since I started going into the mountains but I'm never going to take crazy risks just to tick it off.

In reply to Rob Parsons:


Thanks. A good point taken on-board.

In reply to Foxache:

Checked out the logs for this route in the UKC logbooks and came across this gem that deserves a share:

Bah, piece of piss. Crackin view, had one of those inversioney things wi the clouds. Set out from tete rousses bivy hoose at 1:30, had a wee stroll up past the grand couloir (didny seem very grand) to the gooty hoot. Ma mate popped in for a poo and then we headed up this massive dome thing. A wis gettin a bit cold by now so had tae put on waterproofs ova ma addidas trackies. Turns out theres anotha wee hut on route where you can do another poo. You could eat a vindaloo the night before and nae worry about findin a toilet on-route. My mate fell asleep here cuza altitude but I think the bojo from the night befa was hittin him bad. Wis hard walkin up the final ridge, somethin about less oxygen, but I thought that can't be the case, cuz I feel fine when I'm in a plane, and that's waaay higher. Anyway, summit wis gid. Headed back to train after and whapped out som mare bojo yasss

In reply to Foxache:

Surprised nobody has said this yet, but generally if you need to ask the question on a forum whether something is safe to solo or not then that's usually an indicator that you probably shouldn't solo it. Reason being that you probably lack the experience needed to make that sort of decision. Any solo should really be based on personal judgement. Beta helps of course but I'd say gut feeling plays a much bigger part with alpinism than other forms of climbing. Only way to get that gut feeling tuned is through experience. I'm talking about a gut feeling that is primarily objective rather than subjective btw.

I remember Tim Emmett saying in a lecture that he always tries to consider the worst case scenario and then mitigate against that as best possible, which I've always found to excellent advice. In your case it's probably crevasses, so the sensible thing would be to rope up with somebody. Think you'd find it pretty easy to find a partner on UKC. Gouter is probably ideal for a first Alpine trip otherwise.

If you're really set on soloing it then by all means give it a go if you trust your inner voice enough. I tried to solo stuff in the past when little experience but found I got spooked too easily. What are you going to do if you're unsure whether a crevasse presents in front of you? Eg the snow looks a slightly different colour or texture. Are you going to blindly follow in the previous tracks and hope their way was ok? I found myself turning back for this reason but it was probably partly a consequence of subjective fear. With a bit more experience of navigating crevasses and recognising their presence I could have continued. That said, some crevasses can be totally undetectable no matter how much experience. Particularly if fresh snow or drifting snow. For that reason soloing easy stuff is what scares me the most. I've fallen through a couple of crevasses up my waist on my earlier alpine trips when I was unroped. I was confident that there would be none and was pretty stupid looking back for not roping up but the glaciers were supposedly safe. In a nutshell my sense of what was safe and what wasn't safe wasn't tuned in enough through lack of experience. I'd done a lot of high altitude solo trekking in some well off the beaten track places up to that point so would say my general mountain sense was good but alpine bring a whole new set of challenges. Getting a partner to rope up with might not only make you safer but also allow you to manage subjective fears better (eg 'is that a crevasse in front of me?') and give you a better chance of completing the route.

In reply to GarethSL:

I remember seeing that and chuckling to myself

In reply to Big Lee:

Yeah I can see what you mean, although I was thinking more along the lines of just making sure I'd considered everything before setting my sights on doing it. You set the scene well and right now I can imagine getting spooked and turning back in your example scenario. Having done a few other routes first, experienced glaciers, seen some crevasses I could at least make a judgment call based on more than fear.

In reply to Foxache:
First of all: Yes, it is foolish. All climbing is. Especially soloing.

However, why I think that soloing a long alpine climb as a beginner is a bad idea. You lack experience in the alps. Other than the big things that everyone mentioned (weather, route reading, altitude...), you also lack experience on little things: How much you need to drink at heights over 3000m (1/2 l or 3+ liters a day, individuals are very different), how you your body reacts to 12+ hours of altitude and exposure (stomach cramps due to constant fear, just tiredness or complete mental block and refusing to budge: all witnessed), what to wear when (when to take off a layer, when to add one)

all these things are mitigated a bit when you don't go alone: you discuss, you joke, and everything is a little less bad.

In reply to Foxache:

You have done plenty in the UK , and in the course of that in addition to learning movement skills you will have picked up all sorts of knowledge which helps you stay safe in that environment. Some of that is conscious knowledge but a lot of it is unconscious, a 'mountain sense' that allows you to make safe judgements. That's what we mean by 'experience'.

The Alps is a very different mountain environment. It's not just that it's all much bigger than the UK, it presents entirely new challenges. It's different, even from Scottish winter mountaineering. Your UK mountain sense won't go very far in that environment.

You say that "none of the other risks would really be mitigated by partnering up. Stonefall is going to happen regardless." True, stonefall will happen, but partnering up with someone who knows the warning signs and knows how to mitigate the risk can help you keep out of the firing line. Avoiding stonefall or crevasses isn't just down to luck, being able to read the conditions and make informed judgments plays a part.

You also ask, "At what point has one learned the game and become a real mountaineer?" I would suggest it is when you are able to judge for yourself whether or not soloing MB is a good idea.

I'm not sure why you're so determined to make a solo ascent. Since disposable income apparently isn't the issue, then hiring a guide would not only mitigate most of the risks but would also help you gain a lot of knowledge in a short time. Try to find one who is willing to explain what they are doing rather than just haul you up and down in the shortest possible time.

If the solo tick is really important to you, then go for it - you seem to have already made up your mind anyway, and you appear to be asking UKC to confirm your decision rather than seeking actual advice. More likely than not you will be absolutely fine, and will come back here to ask what was all the fuss about? However there's a greater than usual chance that you'll never be seen again, until a bundle of bones and rags pops out of the foot of the glacier in 50 or 60 years' time. Good luck.

In reply to Foxache:

Foxache, more like headache.

bet you never wished you started this thread. Although it would seem you've come to a happy resolution so all's well that ends well.

In reply to Howard J:

Thanks Howard, good post.

The main appeal of soloing is no doubt the same for me as everyone else (someone else summed it up quite well in an earlier comment), but it also has the added benefit of being logistically easier and giving more freedom with itineraries etc as there's no reliance on anybody else.
As I've said before in this thread though, it was never a case of solo or bust. I asked for advice because no decision had been made. If I'd already made my mind up I wouldn't have bothered asking, I'd have just gone and done it. I was of course hoping that the advice would support my preferred option, but instead it's convinced me otherwise so I'm now looking at other options instead (although for me hiring a guide would kind of defeat the point of doing it).

Perhaps you're right in saying (as others have) that the very fact I felt I should ask is enough to show it was a bad idea, although to be fair I've seen plenty of similar threads where the route wasn't necessarily outside their level of ability.

In reply to Derry:



Ha ha! This is par for the course with internet forums; it's easy to be a w@nker from behind the safety of a keyboard However in amongst the dross there's enough solid gold advice to write a comprehensive 'Budding Alpinist's Guide', and it's also prompted people to contact me about partnering up, so it looks like I won't be crying myself to sleep again tonight.

In reply to Foxache:

cant be bothered to read all the thread to see if my points have been covered or not but the first few seam pretty negative so I am going to provide some balance...

iv soloed it late season and it was fantastic, it was my second alps trip, not first. not that that makes much difference as I knew as much at the start as I did by then (and now for that matter, experience has just enforced my knowledge)

the most dangerous part of the route is approaching the goutier hut, and tbh that is much safer unroped than roped as you can move at your own speed and don't get pulled off by other people. there is always the danger of falling in a crevasse above the hut, but the greatest danger is being to slow, so again in my opinion unroped is safer on balance. it is almost always extremely well tracked out so even in the dark it is easy to stick to the 'safe' line.

Your biggest hurdles will be acclimatisation and fitness (you want to be able to enjoy the summit!), so it would be a bit silly to try it as your first objective on a trip, but after 2 weeks if your going well and weather and conditions are favourable...id say go for it.

In reply to Foxache:

I have fallen - roped - into a crevasse high on Mt Blanc, not on the Gouter side but on the saddle between Mt Blanc and Mont Blanc de Courmayeur. The slot into which I slipped was totally invisible, with the tracks of numerous climbers running over it: exactly what you might come across above the Gouter hut. And if you do, you will probably die. Your decision.

In reply to Foxache:

I did it solo a few years back (my partner was following behind but we were unroped the whole way cos I was pissed with him - so I think that qualifies as solo). Easy route and very manageable solo. But then people have died on easy routes and survived crazy routes, so who is really to know what the outcome will be. Depends on your attitude to risk. It is an easy route with fairly low risk and some objective dangers which have been mentioned by others here and, no doubt, you've read about. I personally like an element of risk and am willing to attempt things up to a level I consider to be appropriate - but this is personal to me. You sound like an experienced person who wouldn't make stupid mistakes like going out in bad weather. So... if you do it, good luck and I hope you enjoy it.

In reply to Foxache:
If you have time and money, why not get out climbing loads, meet new climbing partners and go do some great routes both in the UK and in the Alps. Do that, have a great year, do a bunch of amazing routes and then ask yourself: do I feel like I have missed out on something by soloing the Gouter route?

In reply to mbd:

Brilliant!


Arguably.......


........and willing to impose an element of risk on your badly behaved partner?!

In reply to Foxache:
Don't underestimate the scale of the big mountains in the Alps. 'More' doesn't just mean 'more', it also means 'harder'. Not necessarily technically but mentally and physically. Altitude makes it worse but just the sheer scale of it all is not to be underestimated.

You also need good crampon technique for the narrow ridge over the Bosses. No one on this thread can tell you if your crampon technique is good enough, so you need to be the judge of that. You say you've done grade III, which is harder than the Gouter ridge, but what you need is good crampon technique to be able to move at a good pace on an exposed slope or ridge. That is different to technical climbing and only you know if you can do it.

In reply to Foxache:

Why would you ask such a question in the original post, and then refute other's opinions? Odd

In reply to Foxache:

People like Misha, Robert and many others really do know what they are talking about and are giving you good advice, even if sometimes in a rather gruff way.

I really do suggest that you consider what they have written carefully.

In reply to JohnnyW:


What I find odd is that everyone who's apparently just popped by to make an accusational comment about something I'm supposed to have said has somehow missed the 'quote' button.

Please show me where I'm supposed to have refuted others' opinions.

In reply to Foxache:

I'm blown away by all the sniping and ridicule at other's comments (not just in this post either). The guy asked a fairly simple question. Those who had knowledge and experience were asked to share it. Then it will ultimately be up to him to decide what to do. After all, whatever we say here is subjective, based on our opinions and interpretations. But it is his neck on the line. Or is this what climbing is about nowadays - clawing at each other?

In reply to Foxache:
Just l to emphasise what someone said earlier. At the very least you need to do some acclimatisation and conventional wisdom is that means at least one 4,000m peak. Gran Pradiso or one of the easier peaks in the Zermatt / Saas Fe area are popular choices. Thing is, those peaks generally aren't good options to solo due to crevasses. There will probably be a good track but even good tracks can cross hidden and not so hidden holes. So acclimatisation can be a bit of an issue on a solo trip...

You might also find that you will need more than one 4,000m peak to acclimatise well - depends how it hits you and there is no way of knowing that if you haven't been at altitude before. It has little to do with how fit you are. I'm reasonably fit but would ideally want more than one 4,000m peak before tackling MB if I wanted to enjoy the experience.

So my best advice is join a local club or find regular partners on here (plenty of people who want to do MB), arrange an Alps trip (at least two weeks would be best to get enough weather windows - the sun doesn't shine in Chamonix every day!), do a few routes to prepare and then have a crack at MB. You will enjoy it and it will be safer that way.

In reply to mbd:




As is so often we put our own judgment on a given view [ wops i;m doing it now]
Some people are against any risk, some against soloing, skiing off piste or even walking home from a night on the town. I have gone out with others [ UK ]and broke away, to be told it is a irresponsible thing to have done.
Projecting my thoughts to the OPs Q. i can see that once a first is done in company the first can never be solo, like top roping its just not the same as on sight
And yes we do bitch all over UKC but notwithstanding that it has bean a information thread. not least, because of the OP to keep coming back with substantiate points

In reply to Foxache:

One thing that might be of interest to you is to go out with a guide specifically to learn about crevasse rescue and related subjects. I did this as a revision prior to going to Denali.(I had previously been on an Alpine course to Arolla with Plas y Brenin, and been and done a few 4000m peaks) I stopped off in the Cascades. It was really worthwhile. The guide asked if I would not prefer to go bag some peaks,but I stuck to my guns. Crevasse rescue is about trying to do the necessary without need for much thought, so you need to drill it in. (I know that you started out intending to travel solo,but latterly you have said that you won't). The best thing about the crevasse revision was being lowered into a crevasse and very suddenly feeling the much colder environment, realising that you cannot even raise dust off the walls by whacking them really hard with axe or crampons, and then the having to produce the great effort needed in getting out by prussic-ing up a static rope.(God knows what it must be like to prussic up a rope if your knackered partner is desperately trying to set up a pulley system and there is no-one else to help)

In reply to veteye:


Asking out of idle curiosity only, but is there anyone on here who's successfully pulled an unconscious partner out of a crevasse, unaided, in a genuine life or death situation? I can use the standard technique - I've even taught it to others, in a very informal capacity - but the thought of using it for real has never filled me with confidence. I only feel properly safe on a glacier when I'm roped up in a three with a fat lad on the back!

In reply to Andy Clarke:

I completely agree, the theory about crevasse rescue always reminds me of the old joke :

"In theory, theory and practice are almost the same, in practice the difference can be considerable"

Pulleys, elaborate systems and all that paraphernalia all seem to depend on excellent, easy to set anchors and the time and space to get them in, and to fail to take account of increasing drag as you increase mechanical advantage. If you can stop the initial plunge going any deeper, the best chance seems to either have the victim prussik/worm out of the situation, or to call another party over if possible to help.

Having said that, I suppose I should refresh the theory of this sort of stuff, just in case.

In reply to Simon4:

This is what I wondered in an earlier post when I said that being on a busy route could be safer in some ways because you're more likely to either be able to get help or at least raise the alarm if something went badly wrong. As someone rightly pointed out, if soloing I should do so with the mindset that I'm on my own and totally self-reliant, but I'd have thought that even on a rope of 2 or 3 it could be one hell of a job getting someone out of a crevasse without more assistance if they were wedged, unconscious, badly injured or any combination of the three. You would of course still be in a far better position than if you were to fall into one alone though which sounds like almost certain death.

Out of interest, on classic Alpine routes are there many instances of both people on a rope of two being killed in a crevasse (i.e. one drags the other in and they both die) or would you generally have to go further afield/be doing a harder route for that to be likely?

In reply to Foxache:

Yes, but the idea is that with a rope of 2 or 3, when kept "dry" and a long enough gap, you don't end up wedged, unconscious or injured. In fact, I have never gone more than waist deep in a crevasse, on a rope of 4. Amusingly I was the smallest there, at the back, and the one in front was dithering. He was rather impatiently told "you're bigger than he is, just pull him out" and threw himself forward hard, I popped out like a cork from a bottle. (This is not as far as I am aware a recognised technique!).

Knots on the rope seem like a good idea, though I have never actually used them. The argument is that they stop you going in any distance due to friction, the argument against is that it makes prussiking harder, if hopefully not necessary. In order to prussik, your loops should always be handy, some people always start with one on a rope.


Not that I have heard of. Of course if it did happen, they might just have disappeared and never been found.

In reply to Simon4:


I see what you mean. I started this thread wondering about going solo, now I'm wondering if I should be aiming to be on a rope of at least 3 others!

In reply to jon:

Pretty incredible and sobering stuff.

I remember reading somewhere that a high proportion of fatalities on MB involve guides but haven't seen statistics to back that up so have no idea whether or not it's true. On the one hand it seems unlikely seeing as they're so experienced, but on the other hand they're also more likely to be roped to someone inexperienced. Or it could just be that incidents involving guides are more sobering and therefore more likely to stick in peoples' minds when recalling things they've witnessed or heard.

In reply to Foxache:


1 partner is fine, provided you have enough rope between you, normally 15 m after all knots, also kept as a "dry rope", i.e. it is not dragging along the glacier with lots of slack, though not tugging each other either, which can cause the wrong kind of friction - i.e. between you and your partner, not when cutting into a crevasse edge and arresting you, the right kind of friction!

It would be interesting to here people's views of the usefulness or otherwise of knots on the rope, I have often seen continentals putting 2 or more knots close to each climber.

In reply to Simon4:

I have used knots on occasion, especially after recent snow, but have never yet tested their usefulness!

I'm sure I saw a video posted on here a long time ago, of people simulating falls into crevasses (with a safety rope). I believe it may have been a Russian video but I can't find it now. In most cases the partner spectacularly failed to arrest the fall and both ended up in the crevasse.

In reply to James FR:

http://www.rockandice.com/weekend-whipper-video/weekend-whipper-can-you-rea...

1m30s into this. Sobering.

Wally

In reply to Foxache:


Alas, it's not unknown; for instance, notoriously on the VN on the Weissmies:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=194645

In reply to Foxache:

One guide on my ascent was lucky not to end up with 14 new crampon sized holes in his face, after deciding it'd be a good idea to hassle me by repeatedly tapping at my heel and signalling he wanted to go past with his rather knackered looking client. Fine, if I was going slow.. but I myself was stuck behind 5 or 6 other climbers.

We were only 20m below the old Gouter hut. Let him past, for which I received no thanks, to reach the ledge literally 20 seconds after him. I'd say some guides were more likely to kill you on that route than crevasses. (Tongue firmly in cheek here, for those without a sense of humour)

In reply to Foxache:

If you want to solo, tell someone of your plans, then go for it.

Having said that, soloing is a difficult skill to learn, it is much easier to find others with a similar interest.

You won’t get permission, but if you ask, you will learn (as you have).

Information overload may eventually stop you getting out of bed, or at least out of the country. The Alps are an impressive and enjoyable place and should not be missed.

In reply to Bob Aitken:

Actually I would caution against the VN on the Weissmies at all presently, MUCH longer, steeper, more threatened and generally perilous feeling than it used to be.

The Almageller route is greatly to be prefered, the VN felt very threatening when descending it this year.

In reply to Simon4:

Agreed. In fact the Almageller ridge is a route that could be fairly confidently recommended in most conditions as a solo training venture on a high peak for Foxache or other novice alpinists. As long as they came back the same way ...

In reply to MikeYouCanClimb:

Not necessarily. There have been times in my climbing career when I have learnt a lot about soloing (to the considerable improvement of my general mountaineering competence) mainly because of the difficulty of finding similarly minded climbing partners; sometimes it's just easier to get on with it on your own.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Yes generally I would agree, but that is your choice, having the desire and a little optimistic confidence goes a long way.

However for a first trip to the Alps and having to learn stuff like how to cross crevasses safely by yourself, or to find out how you will cope with the altitude on your own etc is a very high risk strategy. I have met individuals at Huts who have walked up and arranged last minute partners, so it is never too late. Some prefer to be on their own, but the OP does not seem to fit that category.

In reply to Simon4:
"In fact, I have never gone more than waist deep in a crevasse". Well I have,on the Freney Glacier and am bloody lucky to be alive. Which is why I may have seemed snide and unhelpful to the OP who obviously did not like my recommendation to get his head in order as part of the process of becoming a mountaineer. But if he'd read what I said carefully, I did not discourage him, but merely suggested he used his new found wealth and time to learn the game and enjoy it. It seems he, and I hope others who might think likewise, , has now begun to grasp from this thread that pottering around at 1000m in the Lakes, which can be dangerous as the death of a close friend of huge mountaineering experience, has proved to me, is even so orders of difference in a white out at 4800m on Mont Blanc even if the climb is only graded PD or whatever. I repeat to OP. Go and learn the game and enjoy it, it is marvelous, but set about it properly.

In reply to jcw:


Ouch. Not a good place for that to happen.

I've always found both the Freney and Brouillard glaciers have a really heavy duty seriousness too them - for obvious reasons - and I can't recall ever having a good nights sleep at the Eccles Hut

I'm trying to think of a worse place to fall into a crevasse on the Mont Blanc massive, and I can't. Your were indeed lucky to come out of that in one piece.

In reply to jcw:

Funnily enough, I was just reading your tale of it all going horribly wrong on the Freney, sounds suitably grim.

Though any prang you walk away (or are carried away, without too much lasting damage, from) ....

In reply to Goucho:


The Brouillard must vary a lot. On my first attempt to solo the Innominata, I opted for an "integrale" over the very loose Punta Innominata in order to avoid the glacier (having read the horror stories in Bonatti). When I retreated from before the great couloir I was more or less forced to descend the glacier and felt it was actually fine. I had no qualms about going up it solo a couple of years later when I did get up the route. Maybe the foolishness of youth though! I went up it roped several other times around then (late '80's, early '90's) and it was benign. No idea what it is like now though.......

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Not a unconscious , but I have pulled a partner out of a crevasse on a wet glacier. It was bloody storming on the surface whilst mate was sheltered in crevasse. Took about an hour to get them out. I was freezing by time got him out. Had to empty rucksack and put on lip to reduce rope friction. Also he had to remove his rucksack and hooked it up with my ice axe as it was getting wedged under overhang of crevasse. That was quite a day that was meant to be a straight forward crossing between huts.

In reply to Foxache:
Haven't read all 104 posts on this thread but has no-one suggested the OP join a club? Trawling the websites will tell you which ones have an Alpine predilection and it passes on skills as well as solving the problem of being up sh** creek upside down in a crevasse on a wet glacier.

In reply to Orgsm:

Good effort! Scary. What glacier were you crossing at the time? Still wondering if anyone has managed it with an unconscious partner.

In reply to Foxache:
if you had say a inoperable brain tumour and might drop dead any time, then go for it. If you plan to have many more alpine ascents then there are statistically safer ways to introduce yourself to the alps.

I done MB several times, different routes, different directions etc.., I've seen a few soloing gouter route and often they would kind of tag along right behind us, as they simply didn't really have the confidence and experience to be doing what they were. People with lots experience who know the weather, the usual (not guaranteed) crevasse location and can move fast etc.. have probably done MB many times and have no desire to solo it, they'll go and do something else.

Don't become a statistic.

In reply to Foxache:

mrphilipoldham's post is reminder of another hazard unfamiliar to British mountaineers - other people. The ethos is the Alps seems to be to go light and fast, and never mind anyone in your way. Other climbers will push past you, perhaps at a place where you don't feel very safe, they will unclip your belays, and generally appear to have very little concern for your safety. To Brits accustomed to giving way to others and taking their turn in the queue, this comes as a shock.

I should add that I have descended MB solo. I was literally stopped in my tracks by altitude at the higher refuge hut, so I turned back and let my companions continue . I was confident that the route down was easy and safe ground, but in daylight I saw far more crevasses than I had realised when going up in the dark. Where you can see crevasses there are probably others you can't see. I was reassured that it was still early and the snow was well frozen, and that someone carrying a much bigger load than me could be seen safely crossing the same ground. I made it back safely, but had I been descending later in the day after going to the summit I would have been far more worried.

In reply to jcw:

Constructive criticism and/or people poking holes in my logic (or lack of) doesn't in the least bit bother me. I was expecting that when I asked for advice It was the bit about getting my head in order and trying to impress someone that seemed snarky, almost as if I were some whimsical, insecure teenager rather than a grown man who's actually been thinking about MB for a very long time.
However in light of your second post and with the context provided by much of what others have since said, I can understand the point you were making and I appreciate your input.

I started this thread because I suspected there would be other factors, ones more difficult to convey, that can't be grasped from reading guidebooks, reading trip reports, watching videos or studying maps, and it turns out I was right. Some things I'd not even considered and other things I'd considered but hadn't fully appreciated their severity or importance. I do seem to have p*ssed a few people off which is a shame as I was only trying to understand the specifics of some of the advice being given rather than coming across as being disrespectful or a know-it-all.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I've been on the Brouillard three times - Freney Pillar, LH & RH Pillars of Brouillard, and whilst I've never been in any real life threatening danger (possibly got close when retreating from the LH Pillar in a particularly crap storm) I've always felt edgy and anxious - far more so than when on the routes themselves?

I don't know whether it's the remoteness, the steepness, the seracs (especially on the Brouillard) or just the commiting nature and size of that side of Mont Blanc?

Or maybe it's Bonnati's harrowing account of 61' lurking in the subconscious?

In reply to Foxache:

You're coming across at the end of this thread as someone who it would be a pleasure to share a rope with. Don't worry about the armchair warriors who descend on anyone just a bit different and metaphorically flame them. You'll be fine in the Alps if and when you get there. Once you've been, they'll fire your imagination like nothing before. I dream all the time of being fit enough to get back there and do them justice.

Tom

In reply to Foxache:

Well try to separate the "rough and gruff" from the good advice with which it is almost entirely mixed, which you seemed to be starting to do. The vast majority of what people have been telling you is correct, even if bluntly phrased.

Good luck with your Alpine career, which will always carry risks, as it does for all of us, no matter how experienced we are.

Don't let anyone pretend that they were not once young and foolish (as against old, decrepit and grumpy, as we are now), because we all were. Experience is the name men give to their mistakes.

In reply to Simon4:


Bollocks. I've always been old, decrepid and grumpy. Pah...

In reply to jon:


Yes. But you're much more EXPERIENCED at being old, decrepit and grumpy now than you used to be.

In reply to Goucho:


One of the most life threatened I've ever been was when all hell was let loose with stonefall just after dawn about three pitches up the RH Pillar. The top I had just taken off and put on the ledge next to me while belaying on the ledge I was sitting on got struck and was completely shredded. We abseiled under fire to a shallow overhung ledge where we cowered all day while stones exploded all around. Things quietened down enough in the evening to make a quick abseil and run away across the shrapnel peppered glacier to the Eccles.


Yes, this really haunted me on the Red Pillar - the thought of a storm on the Brouillard Ridge is horrific. But the only time I ever followed in God's footsteps, so a really great and humbling experience.

In reply to Goucho:

Loneliness and committment. The mont blanc massif is pretty small really, you are never far from a town or road in a straight, much nearer than many places in Scotland, but in some areas you might be the only climbing team with no one else visible, often a day or more of hard work from getting to any of those roads and that's if everything goes to plan. The alps is a little unique, you could have been at home this morning in the UK, but by this evening you could quite easily be at the base of winter alpine route with a huge commitment in front of you.

Perhaps it takes a little time to adjust mentally. On higher peaks, say 6000m plus you have to travel there, drive, walk, camp etc.. so you are mentally adjusting the whole time. You can flick flack almost daily from the Chamonix party scene/gentle daytime tourist cafes, to brain draining 18 hour climbing days.

In reply to Foxache:

Go do something else with a guide or someone experienced first as practise for one reason - altitude sickness. It matters not one bit how fit or strong you are, if you suffer you suffer and there's nothing you can do about it, and having a partner who recognises it will be very useful.

In reply to Foxache:

I don't often post on UKC anymore but this post has been quite interesting and amusing at times. I have some experiences of Mont Blanc and I feel compelled to share them with anyone who intends to attempt reaching that altitude.

I've been up MB 8 times with groups ranging from 2-6 people (3 x Brenva Spur, 4 x three Monts, 1 x Gouter). On all of the ascents I have cursed being roped-up due to the sudden, uncomfortable tug as one person stops unexpectedly and the tiring inability to go at your own steady pace. However, the rope has saved a few of us...

Many people have mentioned the 2 obvious dangers of crevasses and stonefall so I won't spend too much time on these.

CREVASSES: at night, or in bad visibility, it is difficult to see the crevasses. On 2 occasions we descended at night in whiteout - we rarely saw the path and had to navigate accurately (much easier in a group) - the straight-line took us through the crevasses on the Dome de Gouter and the leader often partially fell in to his waist (pulled out be the snug rope behind)! On one occasion while descending the steeper section between the Bosses ridge and the Vallot hut we came across a solo climber (also descending) just sitting in the snow above a crevasse contemplating the creaky snow bridge that he had crossed in the darkness on the way up! We let him tie onto the end of our rope! Verdict: rope wins!

STONEFALL: Many people have been killed by stonefall in the GRAND COULOIR. In my experience, it is safer for 1 person to cross at a time, unroped, not clipped into the cable, concentrating on their feet placements and moving steadily, as fast as safely possible (wear crampons if there is any ice or snow). While he crosses the partner(s) carefully watch the slope above and remain silent unless they see stonefall coming his way - then use pre-agreed words of command such as "turn back", "stop" or "run"! On the scrambly slope between the Grand Couloir and the Gouter Hut a rope does not improve overall safety - unless you are unsteady due to exhaustion/altitude induced ataxia... Verdict: being unroped but in a group wins!

ATAXIA (and altitude sickness): This is a feeling of unsteadiness/dizziness that can be experienced at altitude. It is made worse by exhaustion due to lack of sleep and the mind-numbing cold or even heat. Someone mentioned above that excellent crampon technique is essential on these long, exposed routes in the Alps and only when you experience (or observe) ataxia that you realise how scary it is watching someone shuffle/stumble along a sharp, snowy ridge, with each careless step, their crampon-heels scrape together and they are in a mindless stupor (like being drunk). I think it gets called "lassitude" in the book Rum Doodle. Anyway, I've observed it many times and it is very dangerous - particularly for a solo climber. It comes on very quickly (from walking steadily and thinking clearly, a few hundred metres of ascent can cause stumbling and confused judgement), it can happen to very fit athletes and even to "experienced" alpinists. Slow, effective acclimatisation, careful hydration and good rest help to prevent it but some people can experience it every time they go to altitude! How would you know if you go solo for the first time? A few times, I've seen people just collapse in the snow, some on the descent from the summit and we have had to drag/lower them! Verdict: Rope wins!

BREAKAGES (equipment or people): One of my friends' crampon snapped on the serac band at the top of the Brenva spur - he had to continue up over the summit and down the Gouter route with 1 crampon. His safety was improved by being on a rope of 4 as he slipped many times on the hard snow. Another friend had been determined to get to the top of MB but just as he reached the summit he was violently sick and just wanted to lay down and go to sleep. We had to drag him down and keep him on a tight rope between 2 others. Verdict: rope wins!

A few years ago, after a long mountaineering career, I found myself in Chamonix without a partner and through UKC met up with a teenage climber on his first trip to the Alps. We met and he told me that he had just solo'd the Gouter route - my immediate judgement was that he had been reckless or was ignorant of the dangers, my opinion was reinforced when he said that he was very ambitious and determined and had found the route easy! But over a few weeks, we did some fine routes: he learned a bit about mountain risk assessment and mitigation while I was refreshed by his wide-eyed motivation and energetic enthusiasm. He later admitted that the experience of soloing the Gouter route meant little when compared to the shared experiences of the roped routes that we did (even though they were not as high and around the same difficulty)! Verdict: rope wins!

Finally to Foxache, the first sentence regarding your relationship and financial statuses in your OP was, in my view, superfluous and, as you soon discovered, offering out that information opened the door to speculation on your motivation, and even your mental well-being! You also asked for objective wisdom - I think that fact-based, measurable mountaineering wisdom is hard to come by so the replies you got were vague, personal opinions based on feelings or emotional response (gut-feelings). You were understandably, riled by this speculation and some of the subjective replies but you stuck with it and eventually came to your own conclusion. However, I hope you still have the motivation and enthusiasm to climb Mont Blanc - its a fine mountain either as a high-point in a mountaineering CV, or as a stepping stone to greater achievements

In reply to DesperateDan:


Great post. Thanks for taking the time to write all that.

Yes you're right about my first post. I was trying to make it clear that I probably had a limited window of opportunity, but I should have just said that, because re-reading it I can see why it would give the impression that I was being impulsive and/or trying to boast about being loaded and I'm neither impulsive or (sadly) loaded! 'Plenty of disposable income' was meant relatively but by the time I re-read the post and realised how it might come across it was too late to edit it

In reply to Foxache:

I would say do it if you feel like it's the right decision. I came on UKC asking for advice before my first trip to the Alps. Was told to get a guide, couldn't afford it, didn't take one and pitied the people who did as they were generally being dragged up a mountain by an arsehole. We taught ourselves and enjoyed the trip thoroughly. Only you can decide what risks you are comfortable taking, it's your call on the ground. Many people have soloed it, I'm sure for some of them it was their first climb in the alps.

I would recommend taking a rope and wearing a harness if soloing as both along with a sling, ice screw and a few wires could aid you in being rescued, securing yourself for rescue, rescuing another party or just to skirt any bits you dont' like the look of, roped soloing upwards if needs be. That's what I do in winter and if I was soloing in the alps I'd do the same.

Can't say I've had much experience there but I found altitude the hardest bit of PD, thoroughly aclimatise with a few nights high and then recover and go for it. Altitude will fit you no matter how fit you are.

Stay Safe, take risks your happy with.