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PRODUCT NEWS: Wild Country - New Friends

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 UKC/UKH Gear 08 Mar 2016
Wild Country New Friends2, 3 kb

Friends are the most iconic protection ever made. Throughout their 38-year tenure, although the construction has changed, their essence remains the same. At the heart of each iteration has been the definitive 13.75 cam angle; described, refined and developed by Wild Country and proven in thousands of miles of cracks climbed since 1977!



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Aldaris 08 Mar 2016
In reply to UKC/UKH Gear:

This is a serious disappointment for me. I really liked the Helium Friends, they definitely had their character with their single-axle design. Why on earth did they throw it away?

This new series feels like a rebranded Camalot. It has no character at all. I really have no idea why choose this over the Camalots? The weight is the same, the design is the same, the price is higher. The nostalgia card is not working here.

Maybe I'm negative but with this move they reduced themselves to the company who produces the Helium carabiner and thats it.
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 galpinos 08 Mar 2016
In reply to Aldaris:

> This new series feels like a rebranded Camalot. It has no character at all. I really have no idea why choose this over the Camalots? The weight is the same, the design is the same, the price is higher. The nostalgia card is not working here.

Doubled sling, different (better?) camming angle?

I think they look great and until I have fondled all of them, would be my choice on paper out of the new Camelots, the new Dragons and these.

However, I seem to be drawn to the holding power of Totems these days....
 Robert Durran 08 Mar 2016
In reply to Aldaris:
> This is a serious disappointment for me. I really liked the Helium Friends, they definitely had their character with their single-axle design. Why on earth did they throw it away?

Yes, commercial suicide. Just their own version of Camalots - same sizes and colours. I really liked having the Friend sizes interleaving the Camalot sizes; a set of each is much more versatile than a double set of Camalots. I shall certainly be buying up and stockpiling the Heliums once shops start selling them off cheap (I've already picked up a few from the gear shop at Joshua Tree which said they no longer saw any point in bothering with Friends).

Why do Wild Country do these daft things? I still havn't forgiven them for changing the colour coding on Rocks.
Post edited at 10:42
4
 EddInaBox 08 Mar 2016
In reply to Aldaris:

> This is a serious disappointment for me. I really liked the Helium Friends, they definitely had their character with their single-axle design. Why on earth did they throw it away?

Perhaps because they didn't sell very well, Helium Friends started to be quite heavily discounted very soon after they came out, retailers generally only do that when they have stock they aren't shifting. When comparing cams the first thing people look at is probably the range, larger twin axle designs have a considerably bigger range, whether that is really better or not it's what sells.

> This new series feels like a rebranded Camalot. It has no character at all. I really have no idea why choose this over the Camalots? The weight is the same, the design is the same, the price is higher. The nostalgia card is not working here.

If enough people want a doubled up sling or a lower camming angle (i.e. theoretically more bite) they will command that premium, otherwise the price will fall to match the Camalots, I predict the price in a year's time will probably match the price of Dragons and Camalots.
 EddInaBox 08 Mar 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I shall certainly be buying up and stockpiling the Heliums once shops start selling them off cheap

They've been around the £35 mark for some time, how much cheaper do you want them? Currently £29 at Rock + Run, even at that price I won't be getting any though, Wild Country trigger wires put me off, too flimsy and wear out before they should.

> I've already picked up a few from the gear shop at Joshua Tree

Are they still expensive in the States, although your profile says you're in Scotland?
 Robert Durran 08 Mar 2016
In reply to EddInaBox:

> They've been around the £35 mark for some time, how much cheaper do you want them? Currently £29 at Rock + Run.

Thanks, I'll check that out.

Wild Country trigger wires put me off, too flimsy and wear out before they should.

I've had just as many issues with Camalot wires.

> Are they still expensive in the States, although your profile says you're in Scotland?

No, I got some cheap on a trip in the autumn.

 CurlyStevo 08 Mar 2016
In reply to EddInaBox:
More to the point, Wild Country will no longer service the slings on these and neither will any other EU manufacturer AFAIK. The only place doing this I know of is in the states and its not that cheap and expensive on postage. It obviously also takes quite a long time to do it this way.

I wonder if its a similar deal on the trigger wires?

Who is actually making these cams for Wild Country any one know? (as I can't see it being them if they no longer have the ability to even resling them)
Post edited at 11:03
 CurlyStevo 08 Mar 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:
The last wild country cam I got was the zero, and the trigger wires were unacceptably flimsy on that. WC couldn't repair it and offered to sell me a new one at about 70% of the retail price, which considering the limited use the cam had undergone, I figured wasn't worth it.
Post edited at 11:09
 galpinos 08 Mar 2016
In reply to EddInaBox:


> If enough people want a doubled up sling or a lower camming angle (i.e. theoretically more bite) they will command that premium, otherwise the price will fall to match the Camalots, I predict the price in a year's time will probably match the price of Dragons and Camalots.

They will cost about the same as the new dragons and less than the new Camalots? Seems like they've got the pricing right?

http://www.outside.co.uk/shop/Camalot+Ultralight
http://www.outside.co.uk/shop/Friend
http://www.outside.co.uk/shop/Dragon+Cam+II

 climbwhenready 08 Mar 2016
In reply to EddInaBox:

> If enough people want a doubled up sling or a lower camming angle (i.e. theoretically more bite) they will command that premium, otherwise the price will fall to match the Camalots, I predict the price in a year's time will probably match the price of Dragons and Camalots.

Dragons already have a 13.75 degree camming angle and the doubled sling, but no thumb loop.

Interestingly although aid climbers claim that the Camelot gives a higher clip in point, if you tie an overhand in a Dragon sling and put a karabiner through it you have an even higher clip in point than the Camelot. I don't know how the new friends compare.

It feels to me like this design of cam has been optimised as far as it will go, so everyone makes copies of the same thing, apart from Totem.
 Chris Sansum 08 Mar 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I was just thinking that a big selling point which might make me switch from my Camalots would be that you could send them to Wild Country in the UK and get the slings replaced. If that is not the case they are missing an opportunity! Having to send Camalots to the US and wait to get the slings replaced has always seemed like too much hassle.
 CurlyStevo 08 Mar 2016
In reply to Chris Sansum:

the last time BD replaced my slings all I had to do was send the cams to them, they replaced the slings AND returned them to me for free (as well as repairing some triggers for me). The turn around was pretty good also.

I am pretty certain about the slings re WC.
 climbwhenready 08 Mar 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

's what I just said
Aldaris 08 Mar 2016
In reply to galpinos:

Don't forget you are comparing to these:
http://www.outside.co.uk/shop/Camalot+C4

Price is around the same. Theories on the camming angles are for backseat climbers. i don't mean to be offensive, but have you ever used a Dragon or a Helium instead of a Camalot because you felt the angle is better and thus it will hold better? For me it worked like: it fits, it goes.

The UL Camalots are a completely different story! That is very interesting but from a different point of view: that is real innovation...
 flaneur 08 Mar 2016
In reply to Chris Sansum:

> I was just thinking that a big selling point which might make me switch from my Camalots would be that you could send them to Wild Country in the UK and get the slings replaced. If that is not the case they are missing an opportunity!

It's interesting how cam design is converging. When designs are so similar, issues like this will inform purchases. It's more than a missed opportunity, it's shameful built-in obsolescence. WC recommend retiring nylon and dyneema 5 years after first use. There is nothing unsafe about the metalwork of a 5 year old cam with normal use but WCs recommendation is we should bin them and buy another. F*ck that! I'll be taking my trade elsewhere.

More generally, WC seem to sadly lost their way: mainly average products, manufactured offshore, ambitiously priced, with poor after-sales service, all suggesting a company mainly concerned with the short-term rather than planning to stick around.
1
 galpinos 08 Mar 2016
In reply to Aldaris:
> Don't forget you are comparing to these:


> Price is around the same. Theories on the camming angles are for backseat climbers. i don't mean to be offensive, but have you ever used a Dragon or a Helium instead of a Camalot because you felt the angle is better and thus it will hold better? For me it worked like: it fits, it goes.

No, I'm comparing them to the new Camalots. The "new" cam that they will be compared against. Personally I have standard Camalots. I'd have liked an extendable spine but the Dragon one was so awful, I was happy with my Camalots.

> The UL Camalots are a completely different story! That is very interesting but from a different point of view: that is real innovation...

Real innovation is Totems, which is what I would buy if I was in the market for some new cams now.
Post edited at 12:18
 CurlyStevo 08 Mar 2016
In reply to flaneur:
Its a shame none of the major manufacturers are making a cam that doesn't need a manufacturer replaced sling. It should be possible to design a system where the user can replace the sling safely I would have thought.

I quite like the BD user changeable trigger wires, I've done that myself a couple of times with no issues.
Post edited at 12:25
 CurlyStevo 08 Mar 2016
In reply to galpinos:
You do get used to the dragon extendable sling its normally fine as long as you look and pull the right end, although I'll admit occasionally it twists and its not easy to see the right end. As long as you check your cams before setting off this is pretty much a non issue.
Post edited at 12:21
 galpinos 08 Mar 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

My climbing partner has them and they drive me nuts, I go out of my way to ensure it's my rack we climb with but I guess it's familiarity that's the issue.

I used to love my 4CUs with extendable and the new friend slings look better than the dragon.
 Robert Durran 08 Mar 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> Its a shame none of the major manufacturers are making a cam that doesn't need a manufacturer replaced sling. It should be possible to design a system where the user can replace the sling safely I would have thought.

Just buy a bit of cord and tie it with a double fishermens. Or tape tied with a tape not. Not as neat as the original but perfectly serviceable. Disclaimer: I'm sure the manufacturers don't recommend this and nor do I.
Aldaris 08 Mar 2016
In reply to galpinos:

Well you can compare them to the new camalots, but don't forget that those are 25% lighter. That is a huge difference which does implicate the higher price. Some will go for it, others won't, no problems there.
The Totems are bloody expensive as well, why don't you compare the WCs to those? Would make the same sense.

But these WC Friend are essentially the same as the good old camalots. Still same weight, still same price.
 EddInaBox 08 Mar 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> More to the point, Wild Country will no longer service the slings on these and neither will any other EU manufacturer AFAIK.

Just to avoid confusion, nobody in the EU will resling Wild Country gear but some manufacturers will still resling their own.

I believe these companies will resling their own cams:

Black Diamond
DMM
Metolius
Totem

I haven't been able to find out about Fixe or Kouba, does anybody know?
 Coel Hellier 08 Mar 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Just buy a bit of cord and tie it with a double fishermens. Or tape tied with a tape not.

Or, even easier, buy an open-loop extender (e.g. the 18cm, 11-mm dyneema loop in the link below), then lark's foot it to the cam (so that the sling lark's-foots over metal, not sling on sling) and there you are.

http://www.needlesports.com/598/products/dmm-11mm-dyneema-open-loop-extende...
 EddInaBox 08 Mar 2016
 CurlyStevo 08 Mar 2016
In reply to EddInaBox:

metolius will resling but its quite expensive on postage
 CurlyStevo 08 Mar 2016
In reply to EddInaBox:
nothing new in any of these suggestions.

tried cord but not a great fan would rather pay for a pro resling.

I very often extend my cams so the death products method is out.

the sling on metal method must introduce some slightly odd torque to the cam when loaded, I guess it probably doesn't matter, also you can only do this on some types of cam. I think a more professionally designed take on this would do the trick. Unfortunately most modern cams don't even have the right sling attachment for this.
Post edited at 14:02
 pebbles 08 Mar 2016
In reply to EddInaBox:

I'v done this, its worked just fine for me (and I have flight tested them). Now have a shiny new set of dragons instead though coz of the extendable sling and double axle.
 TobyA 08 Mar 2016
In reply to UKC/UKH Gear:

I think they look great, but on the video - "carry less quickdraws"?!? Arghhh. Someone shoot the editor!
 philhilo 08 Mar 2016
In reply to EddInaBox:

Worked for me, sling through hole, clip both ends, done. Got a third set of cams on the go for Yosemite and no issues, as long as you clip both ends, sorted. Or larks foot over the metal, done.
 Timmd 09 Mar 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Why do Wild Country do these daft things? I still havn't forgiven them for changing the colour coding on Rocks.

The decision to drop the thinner super-light Rocks seems like an odd choice to me, as there's nothing else like it out there.
 galpinos 09 Mar 2016
In reply to Timmd:

They're due back this year, some issue with the tooling I believe. Mine were dropped in the sea so am keen to replace them when I can.
 BStar 09 Mar 2016
In reply to Timmd:

As galpinos said, they are due back, it was a problem with the tooling and they changing the manufacturer. The super light rocks are brilliant for a second set of nuts, they should sell them in a 1-10 set when they get the tooling right.

I have had some great after market support from WC, my superlight rock 1 came loose on its wire, not unsafe, but it could travel up and down the wire. They happily sent me a new rock, free of charge, and took the other one back for inspection.

IMHO the cams looks good. I was in the market for new cams last year, bought Camalots in the end, after have WC friends previously. The thumbloop and range was the seller for me. The extending sling of the dragon is good, but not having the thumbloop put me off them. Surely, this cam that does it all will be a winner?
 CurlyStevo 09 Mar 2016
In reply to BStar:
I've just gone to DMM offsets and am temporarily atleast putting my superlights in to retirement, my reasoning is this:
- They aren't so super light when you consider the advertised size is really the equivalent of a smaller nut placed sideways. If you compare like with like you aren't saving much weight really.
- The strength ratings are poor, the strength rating of 6kn can easily be exceeded in typical falls, and 4kn is very weak indeed. I'd prefer specialist brass micronuts to the 4kn nuts and full strength nuts to the 6kn ones.
- The narrower placement of the superlights does let them place in flaring cracks pretty well, however the DMM Offsets are better for this case.

The one major thing I think I'll miss is placing them in twisted in pockets / placements, I guess we'll see how happy I am twisting in wallnuts / offsets instead.
Post edited at 11:13
 BStar 09 Mar 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I'm not sure I quite follow your advertised size / nut being placed sideways. They are the same size as said nut, just cut in half, hence the 'normal' nut placement is the same, it's the alternative sideways placement that is smaller.

The first thing I did when I got my 1 - 10 of the superlights / offsets was to weigh them on a set of kitchen scales. I remember them being around 220g compared to my classic DMM wallnuts 1 - 10 which were 420g. Quite a saving really.

As for the strength... yes I agree, 4kN isn't much, it could certainly be better, but as far as an alternative set of nuts is concerned, the more variety of nut shapes you have the more likely you are to find something that will go in. I've definitely found placements where a normal number 1 wouldn't go but the superlight 1 does, but I do admit, it's not my most placed nut.

I have the DMM offsets in alternate combination with a normal walnuts for my primary set of nuts, so having the superlights as a second set suits me, lots of options and a fair weight saving too.
 CurlyStevo 10 Mar 2016
In reply to BStar:
What I mean is for example a number 4 super light is actually more like the dimensions of a size 2/3 wallnut (or so) with the flaring / curved edges switched. It's not really a size 4 nut in dimensions.

In your example you aren't comparing like with like. Take the number 10 super light its widest placement isn't as wide as a number 10 sideways wallnut. I see a lot of this as clever advertising rather than genuine weight savings. If you make a bunch of nuts that fit smaller cracks of course they can weigh less!

Anyway you pays your money you takes your choice I don't think for the sake of a pretty minor weight saving compromising the strength of the pieces that much is worth it.

There was a piece a few years ago about a nut that broke at burbage north and back then the manufacturer said 7-8 kn can easily be generated on the top piece in common fall scenarios. For worst case you need more than this.
Post edited at 01:43
 BStar 10 Mar 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Ah I get what you are saying now. I sort of agree, but sort of disagree too. On a normal set of nuts I'd say 80% of nut placements are on the front and back faces, not the side to side faces. In the superlights, these front to back dimensions are unchanged, so 80% of the time you are saving weight. But at the same time, I do agree with you, the set of nuts do feel like they fit smaller cracks better. A 200g saving on a set of nuts is quite considerable though, on a second set of nuts it is less important (to me) that they aren't full sized in both orientations. They are different in shape, and I guess that's why I like them, they add variety to my rack.

Anyway... the cams... they look good, the best of the two leading products on the market at the moment, I can't really see why people are complaining!
 Fraser 10 Mar 2016
In reply to UKC/UKH Gear:

They have "directional pull indicators" - what's that then?
 beardy mike 10 Mar 2016
In reply to BStar:
Stevo does have a bit of bee in his bonnet about the superlights. Full disclosure, I worked on the cams above so I guess I could be construed as biased too. I own the both the superlights and the dmm offsets and had a set of the HB alloy offsets before that and also a set of the Metolius curve nuts. So the way I see superlights is not as a real offset but as a way of giving yourself more options. The most you will see in most normal falls is less than 7kN, so for the majority of the time they will be fine. But really you just need to take them for what they are worth - they are not as strong clearly. But then do you need 14kN like DMM want you to go with? Probably not. 10kN is plenty for pretty much any placement you'll ever make. OK so superlights are not as strong as that, but 10kN is an extreme impact, a factor 2 onto a single piece. The compromise they've made here is that they have reduced wire size, maybe they shouldn't have but they are trying to appeal to a particular user which clearly is not Stevo.

Initially I was pretty unconvinced about the concept as I thought they would be inferior to the DMM product in every way, but having now used them for 3/4 of a year I feel I can say with confidence that they are at least as good. For what it's worth I thought DMM somehow managed to downgrade their nut from the original as the HB's were in my view perfect. And if I were being ruthless I would probably not bother carrying the largest sizes of the DMM Offsets because I just don't place them - I usually use up to the red size and after that I just don't feel I find the placements. So what's the difference with the superlights? The fact that the aspect ratio of the offset is different seems to somehow help them seat very well, much better than I had expected. And in the other orientation you are able to effect very shallow placements or odd shaped placements much better than any other standard nut I've used.

So you have to balance the lack of massive strength against their usability, and the fact that they are neater and lighter on your rack. For me, when I climb in the dolomites and I am climbing between pegs so want to carry many extenders and there is a lot of fixed gear, they are a great solution - rather than taking half the nuts like some people might I take a full set, have double the placements and just accept that each individual placement is going to be a little weaker. For Curly, he feels the strength is warranted and I can understand that point of view - perhaps in time WC might consider making a "prettylight" night with a stronger cable to serve that market. I feel if they did that they would be better than the DMM product in every way. But at the end of the day they have taken a risk to bring you a different and useful product.

As for the cams not shattering the earth with their amazingness, what you need to consider is that Heliums bombed. Like completely. Hence why shops were discounting them very soon after they came out. It seemed to the sales guys that the market was at double axle whether they liked it or not. Lets face it, single axle cams are more stable, they are lighter per unit, in terms of shear physics, single axle cams are a less complicated and more robust solution. so what should they do? Continue to sell what the market considers a dud or take the hit and move on?

Now whilst thy might appear to be the same as a Camalot they really aren't. We made a big effort to optimise the sizes so that there are absolutely no inconsistencies through the range - no other company has done that - DMM have literally copied the range sizes of BD but added a 13.75 degree angle. If you look at in depth there are some big gaps and some big compressions in their range. Then we also made the lobes as wide as we could (Stevo is going to disagree on this one) to help prevent the most common real world pull out which is through rock pulverisation - if you look at DMM's new offering and Metolius's new sharktook cam surface they have tried to address the same issue in a different way. So weight for weight you have more metal in contact with the rock to help reduce the surface stresses present within the rock. Then we reduced axle weight by making them hollow which means you more or less get 2 for the price of one.

The pull out sling again - it's a compromise - some people like it some don't and just want ultimate strength. What Toby says above about not needing more extenders is to some extent truth, but consider this: the dragon achieves much of it's lightness through not having a thumbloop. The cable section of the thumbloop as it's steel weighs considerably more than an aluminium pigs nostril. They have further reduced weight by shortening the stem cable as much as possible. What you lose by doing this is reach inside the crack and some 5cm in length, about the length of a small carabiner. By retaining a thumbloop you actually come back to a similar extended length to a standard loop length plus an extender. So it's a little more complex than just calling marketing. It also makes them in my view the most comfortable in your hand out of any product on the market, especially the largest silver/grey one.

So overall, we've made lots of small incremental improvements to deliver what they feel is the best set of features they can.

Now then, Ultralight BD's. To be honest having held them in my hand at tradeshows, I'm not convinced. The cam lobes are thin as hell which is NOT a good thing on double axle cams, they are not as light as they could be, the whole thing is pretty bulky and the sling is not hermetically sealed which means if you get grit and dirt ingress, it will sit there abrading the dyneema internally with no way of inspecting the sling as the plastic is black. Water and dirt trapped in a plastic tube with fibres, even dyneema fibres is not a great idea. But I guess long term usage will prove I'm wrong...
Post edited at 11:04
 CurlyStevo 10 Mar 2016
In reply to beardy mike:
Ok BMC say this regarding single pitch falls https://www.thebmc.co.uk/ae-microwire-failure :
"In typical fall situations it was not difficult to generate forces between 6kN and 7kN on runners"

"For a climber to feel confident that their runners will hold without breaking, they should have a minimum strength of 7kN. And even this does not guarantee security, since higher forces can be generated in some high friction situations. "

I was specifically referring to the superlights not the superlight offsets as the former are only rated to 4 or 6kn. However like you I think the ratings on the superlight offsets are a bit low also and I question if the decrease in strength is worth it, especially for the chunkier climber (I never get my weight lower than 83kg and I look a bit skinny around that weight - often its closer to 90kg)

From what I've read I think your estimates of max forces on the gear are potentially a little on the low side. Do you have any test data to back it up?

Overall I think the new friends look quite nice btw, but the re-slinging issue would possibly prevent me purchasing them.

Do you know what situation is regarding replacing trigger wires?

regarding the BD UL cams
"the sling is not hermetically sealed which means if you get grit and dirt ingress, it will sit there abrading the dyneema internally with no way of inspecting the sling as the plastic is black"

Yeah I thought similar when I saw the online spiel.
Post edited at 11:31
 lithos 10 Mar 2016
In reply to beardy mike:

Toby is not so bothered about how many quickdraws he carries, but rather he'd carry fewer of them not less.
 beardy mike 10 Mar 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Sorry Stevo, I misunderstood you were talking about the original superlights... I was thinking of the ratings for the offsets. Yeah the original superlights are a little weak in those sizes. I suggested a concept a long way back but at the time they wanted to continue with what they had - their prerogative.

As for test data, I've had extensive conversations about it with a member of the UIAA safety committee who had done a lot of lab and real world testing of most types of gear. At the end of the day, a rope which complys with UIAA and CE marking limits the force exerted on a piece to an absolute maximum of 13kN. But all ropes are much much better than that minimum requirement. That is why Metolius rate much of their kit at 10kN. Somewhere down the line there was someone who decided 14kN is the be all and end all but will you ever generate that without misuse? No. I guess it comes down to the set of compromises you inevitably make when designing anything. a 7kN fall is usually about FF1, which if you are diligent is not that hard to avoid. Yes you are probably in the 5-6 kN region for many falls but it's all going to depend on how many pieces you have in (friction), what rope you're using, the angle of route (slowing the fall)... there's so many variables that you could pretty much discuss it for ever. The acid test is whether you hear of many microwires rated at that level breaking, and you really don't, and that's not because there aren't people out there using the kit in this way...
 beardy mike 10 Mar 2016
In reply to lithos:

Che? Lost.com
 beardy mike 10 Mar 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> Overall I think the new friends look quite nice btw, but the re-slinging issue would possibly prevent me purchasing them.

Alas not my call, nor I suspect most of the companies.

> Do you know what situation is regarding replacing trigger wires?

No not sure at all - can try to find out. I know the trigger has been designed in a similar way to BD's so I suspect even if they don't start selling them you could use the BD ones...
 CurlyStevo 10 Mar 2016
In reply to beardy mike:
I think given what you said, the BMC article I linked and that I climb a lot of multipitch and typically weigh 10% over the UIAA standard test weight (but am pretty awesome at getting good placements) - 7kn is a bit on the weak side for me, 6kn is pushing things way too far for standard nut sizes. If the superlight offsets were rated 2kn higher I'd probably consider them.

I hope the WC cams sell well - as they look like nice kit to me
Post edited at 11:50
 Hay 10 Mar 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:
Hi Robert,
Single stem Heliums really tanked for us and I am pretty sure that's true for most retailers.
If they'd been a hot ticket then they'd still be full price everywhere.

FFIW, I've had a good look at these new WC Friends and I think they look great.
My cam rack is all Camalots at the moment as have never been persuaded to change - up to now if I had to replace the lot it would be with more Camalots. Now I'd probably give WC Friends a whirl instead.

The wide lobes look really reassuring and I am sure that the camming angle jive works to. I'll just have to take Beardy Mike's word for that ... I am shit at maths and don't really know what a vector is.

In terms of the cam reslinging ... if some clever type was to set up a shed-based, approved reslinging service, I think they make a good wee earner from it.

Bruce

 CurlyStevo 10 Mar 2016
In reply to Hay:

Unfortunately EU regs basically make it impossible for anyone but the original manufacturer of the cam to resling it (within the EU)
 Rob Parsons 10 Mar 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Is that correct and, if so, what are the relevant regulations?
 EddInaBox 10 Mar 2016
In reply to Rob Parsons:

This is what Wild Country said a few years ago (when they still did re-slinging on gear less than ten years old):
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=445201&v=1#x6254648

And this regulation effectively says that a new sling would be regarded as integral to the cam it was attached to:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/1144/regulation/4/made
 climbwhenready 10 Mar 2016
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Is that correct and, if so, what are the relevant regulations?

I believe it's to do with the fact that a cam has to conform to the EU standard, and the manufacturers test and certify that; however if anyone modifies them they would have to retest and recertify the design with the particular sling they are using which is prohibitive.
 Robert Durran 10 Mar 2016
In reply to Hay:
> Hi Robert,
> Single stem Heliums really tanked for us and I am pretty sure that's true for most retailers.
> If they'd been a hot ticket then they'd still be full price everywhere.
> FFIW, I've had a good look at these new WC Friends and I think they look great.

The new Friends may well be fantastic and outcompete Camalots and Dragons*, but, for me, they have lost their main selling point which is that the sizes of old friends interleave Camalot sizes and so are the obvious choice for a second set of cams. But maybe not enough people need a second set for this to be a commercial factor for Wild Country. The shop in Joshua Tree said that they would no longer stock Friends for this very reason and instead do the nice looking new Metolius cams which do interleave Camalots.

Anyway, if Tisos have loads of unsellable Heliums cluttering up the shops I'll happily take them off your hands for a nominal payment

*Though Wild Country have pissed me off often enough now (I mentioned the infuriating change of colour coding of Rocks), that part of me would like to see them fail miserably and go out of business.........
Post edited at 17:07
2
 Rob Parsons 10 Mar 2016
In reply to EddInaBox and climbwhenready:
Thanks for the comments. Hard to think that that's the intended detail of the law, but I assume WC must have thought about it and taken legal advice. Fair enough.

However, in that case, how is it that other companies (mentioned above) apparently do resling cams?
Post edited at 20:18
 deepsoup 10 Mar 2016
In reply to Hay:
> In terms of the cam reslinging ... if some clever type was to set up a shed-based, approved reslinging service, I think they make a good wee earner from it.

I've wondered that too. There have been persuasive arguments put forward on other threads that the PPE regulations would prohibit that, though I'm not quite 100% convinced. If it was my shed, I'd be looking for some proper legal advice before setting up shop though!

But I suspect it's easy to over-estimate the market for this, and to under-estimate the costs involved in setting up shop to manufacture properly rated slings. (Not so much just making them as all the hoo-hah required around quality control, testing etc..)

There only seem to be one or two places doing this in the whole of the USA, which sort of suggests to me that legal issues aside the UK alone wouldn't be a big enough market to support just one.
 climbwhenready 10 Mar 2016
In reply to Rob Parsons:

The law as I understand it means that when the manufacturer reslings their own cam with their own sling using the same technique as when they make it, it's a certified piece of PPE (to a tested design) and fine. What can't be done is another company reslinging a cam - that would make a "new" uncertified product.
 climbwhenready 10 Mar 2016
In reply to Rob Parsons:

However, I'm only echoing what I think I read once - I am not an expert on any of this!
 Rob Parsons 10 Mar 2016
In reply to climbwhenready:
> The law as I understand it means that when the manufacturer reslings their own cam with their own sling using the same technique as when they make it, it's a certified piece of PPE (to a tested design) and fine. What can't be done is another company reslinging a cam - that would make a "new" uncertified product.

Thanks. If it were like that, it would mean that WC *could* resling friends. But in the post I was referred to above, somebody from WC wrote: "Thus this precludes re-slinging as even though we are not actually repairing the metal work we have to accept the metalwork and send it out again which would give us responsiblity over it's future behaviour."

I wonder why WC seem to have different view on this to other manufacturers?

> However, I'm only echoing what I think I read once - I am not an expert on any of this!

Ha - don't worry about that! It would be nice to get a definitive answer but unless somebody directly involved pops up here, we probably won't.
Post edited at 20:56
 deepsoup 10 Mar 2016
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Thanks. If it were like that, it would mean that WC *could* resling friends.

As long as the Friends in question were under 10 years old, yes. They did used to do that - it was a service they offered at the time they wrote that post.

> I wonder why WC seem to have different view on this than other manufacturers?

I don't know, but I suspect it's to do with the logistics of where they have outsourced the manufacture to. DMM manufacture their own cams in Wales. They used to manufacture Friends on behalf of WC as well (I believe DMM and WC were effectively merged into a single company for a time) but that is no longer the case.

> Ha - don't worry about that! It would be nice to get a definitive answer but unless somebody directly involved pops up here, we probably won't.

Well, it's not unheard of. That post by WC that was linked to was a pretty definitive answer at the time.
 Rob Parsons 10 Mar 2016
In reply to deepsoup:
> I don't know, but I suspect it's to do with the logistics of where they have outsourced the manufacture to.

Yes - sounds plausible.

That's another thing this thread has got me wondering: if WC have outsourced their design to folk like 'beardy mike' above; and they've outsourced their manufacture to somewhere (I guess) in Asia - what are they left with? I'm getting confused.
Post edited at 21:14
 TobyA 10 Mar 2016
In reply to lithos:

> Toby is not so bothered about how many quickdraws he carries, but rather he'd carry fewer of them not less.

I apologise for having become such a teacher since I became a teacher. I'll give you a house point though for reading carefully.
 EddInaBox 10 Mar 2016
In reply to deepsoup:

> I don't know, but I suspect it's to do with the logistics of where they have outsourced the manufacture to...

I suspect that is why, the author of this post asked Wild Country directly and it seems they don't own the sewing machines to do it:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=628405&v=1#x8169703
 beardy mike 11 Mar 2016
In reply to Rob Parsons:

Hi Rob, they do do most of it themselves. The cams happened to be a case of them parting ways with DMM and losing their design resource. I happened to be asking at the right time and that's how I ended up doing them. Their aim is to do as much as possible themselves as contractors like myself are probably more expensive than employees. But I know that sewing was at Tideswell until recently but it has now moved away.
 Rob Parsons 11 Mar 2016
In reply to beardy mike:

Ok thanks. That's encouraging.
 galpinos 11 Mar 2016
In reply to beardy mike:

> But I know that sewing was at Tideswell until recently but it has now moved away.

To where?

 galpinos 11 Mar 2016
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> That's another thing this thread has got me wondering: if WC have outsourced their design to folk like 'beardy mike' above;

Lot's of people "outsource" their design to freelancers, especially smaller companies that don't have the turnover to support a full time staff.

It happens across the industry, i.e I imagine Jottnar don't have a team of designers doing their stuff, they've have an idea from the two owners of what products they want then get a freelance designer in to get them to a stage, them maybe a freelance pattern cutter to do the patterns for them, then send it all of to the middle east to make. The North Face, on the other hand, will have a of of that capability in house.

 beardy mike 11 Mar 2016
In reply to galpinos:

Don't know that - sorry.
 Rob Parsons 11 Mar 2016
In reply to galpinos:

> Lot's of people "outsource" their design to freelancers, especially smaller companies that don't have the turnover to support a full time staff.

Sure. But the endgame would be a company which outsources absolutely *every* part of its operation, and retains only its name. That would be a very uninteresting position to have reached - even though it might still be a very profitable one.



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