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Hi there,
I would like some helpful/friendly advice from people who have experience in alpine territory. Some context about my experience - have had 2 trips to NZ where I have done small alpine/mountaineering trips. Had a 3 day trip last winter learning basic crampon/ice axe techniques, snow camping, backcountry, navigation etc. Am a regular climber and canyoneer so am competent with ropes. However, nothing too serious on the mountaineering side of things. Heading over to Europe July/August, will do an introductory mountaineering/alpine course to polish skills.
Following this, I would like to make the journey up to Margarita Hut via Gnifetti hut. Issues have arisen and need advice.
I'm travelling alone.
which leads to my 3 questions.
1) Is the route to Margarita Hut something achievable with my experience noted above or will I really need a guide/tour to join?
2)I would feel comfortable having a partner. However, I am also comfortable doing things by myself. In terms of safety, is it viable to do this route alone as it seems like it is popular and relatively non-technical?
3) How do people go about finding others to ascend/rope up with if travelling alone?
Thank you in advance.
I would like some helpful/friendly advice from people who have experience in alpine territory. Some context about my experience - have had 2 trips to NZ where I have done small alpine/mountaineering trips. Had a 3 day trip last winter learning basic crampon/ice axe techniques, snow camping, backcountry, navigation etc. Am a regular climber and canyoneer so am competent with ropes. However, nothing too serious on the mountaineering side of things. Heading over to Europe July/August, will do an introductory mountaineering/alpine course to polish skills.
Following this, I would like to make the journey up to Margarita Hut via Gnifetti hut. Issues have arisen and need advice.
I'm travelling alone.
which leads to my 3 questions.
1) Is the route to Margarita Hut something achievable with my experience noted above or will I really need a guide/tour to join?
2)I would feel comfortable having a partner. However, I am also comfortable doing things by myself. In terms of safety, is it viable to do this route alone as it seems like it is popular and relatively non-technical?
3) How do people go about finding others to ascend/rope up with if travelling alone?
Thank you in advance.
In reply to yellow21:
Yes, you should be fine with this, provided you check on crevasse rescue/glacier travel. Mostly it is not very technical at all, after all Queen Margarita personally opened it more than a century ago with a train of 100 ladies in waiting.
Not advisable due to crevasse danger, also it is VERY high, see previous advice about soloing Mont Blanc by the Gouter route.
Stick a an advert for "Lifts and partners"?
P.S. Do NOT go up to the Gnifetti hut on a weekend in high Summer, the roadhead is mayhem. Leave it till a weekday and it can be virtually empty.
> which leads to my 3 questions.
> 1) Is the route to Margarita Hut something achievable with my experience noted above or will I really need a guide/tour to join?
Yes, you should be fine with this, provided you check on crevasse rescue/glacier travel. Mostly it is not very technical at all, after all Queen Margarita personally opened it more than a century ago with a train of 100 ladies in waiting.
> 2)I would feel comfortable having a partner. However, I am also comfortable doing things by myself. In terms of safety, is it viable to do this route alone as it seems like it is popular and relatively non-technical?
Not advisable due to crevasse danger, also it is VERY high, see previous advice about soloing Mont Blanc by the Gouter route.
> 3) How do people go about finding others to ascend/rope up with if travelling alone?
Stick a an advert for "Lifts and partners"?
P.S. Do NOT go up to the Gnifetti hut on a weekend in high Summer, the roadhead is mayhem. Leave it till a weekday and it can be virtually empty.
3
In reply to yellow21:
You don't seem to have mentioned the word 'crevasse'. Does that mean you're unaware that it's a glacier above the Gnifetti?
You don't seem to have mentioned the word 'crevasse'. Does that mean you're unaware that it's a glacier above the Gnifetti?
1
In reply to Simon4:
She was carried on a sedan chair, Simon...
> after all Queen Margarita personally opened it more than a century ago with a train of 100 ladies in waiting.
She was carried on a sedan chair, Simon...
1
In reply to Simon4:
I think it'd be a splendid idea to bring sedan chairs back into vogue. It's probably the only way I'd finish my 4000ers. I notice that you have now drawn level...
I think it'd be a splendid idea to bring sedan chairs back into vogue. It's probably the only way I'd finish my 4000ers. I notice that you have now drawn level...
In reply to jon:
I suppose the poles of the sedan chair could count as a rather innovative precaution against crevasses, as they will bridge most of them. A bit hard on the poor chair carriers though, unless they can cling on to the ends very hard if they fall through.
If the queen was carried, how did the ladies in waiting get up there?
I suppose the poles of the sedan chair could count as a rather innovative precaution against crevasses, as they will bridge most of them. A bit hard on the poor chair carriers though, unless they can cling on to the ends very hard if they fall through.
If the queen was carried, how did the ladies in waiting get up there?
Post edited at 08:53
3
In reply to jon:
Margarita's chair is on display at the Castello Savoia in Gressoney. Maybe you could rent it? I am sure for a suitable fee Simon would carry one end.
Margarita's chair is on display at the Castello Savoia in Gressoney. Maybe you could rent it? I am sure for a suitable fee Simon would carry one end.
In reply to yellow21:
Signalkuppe from the Gnifetti hut is regularly done by soloists. Whether that is a wise thing to do is an entirely different issue. The only times I would even consider it would either be very early in the season and on skis, or very late when all crevasses are (hopefully) visible.
Much safer to do it roped up.
CB
Signalkuppe from the Gnifetti hut is regularly done by soloists. Whether that is a wise thing to do is an entirely different issue. The only times I would even consider it would either be very early in the season and on skis, or very late when all crevasses are (hopefully) visible.
Much safer to do it roped up.
CB
2
In reply to MG:
Have to be a bloody massive fee! I was thinking of BEING carried.
Now just need to find enough strapping young aspirant alpinists gullible, er, I mean enthusiastic and eager enough to carry me, for the invaluable and unlimited benefit of the profound advice they will get in return.
> I am sure for a suitable fee Simon would carry one end.
Have to be a bloody massive fee! I was thinking of BEING carried.
Now just need to find enough strapping young aspirant alpinists gullible, er, I mean enthusiastic and eager enough to carry me, for the invaluable and unlimited benefit of the profound advice they will get in return.
2
In reply to cb294:
This last Summer I did in fact do the Pyramid Vincent from there, but made sure I was early enough to get up and down while it was still hard frozen. Coming down later in the day is a much less appealing idea, though I suppose the OP would intend to stay at the M hut, so that problem would not apply.
Certainly important not to underestimate the impact of altitude when staying at 4600m would have, very important to do something lower, preferably several things lower beforehand.
> Signalkuppe from the Gnifetti hut is regularly done by soloists.
This last Summer I did in fact do the Pyramid Vincent from there, but made sure I was early enough to get up and down while it was still hard frozen. Coming down later in the day is a much less appealing idea, though I suppose the OP would intend to stay at the M hut, so that problem would not apply.
Certainly important not to underestimate the impact of altitude when staying at 4600m would have, very important to do something lower, preferably several things lower beforehand.
1
In reply to yellow21:
I have been there in early June. Loads of Crevasse under the snow, it would be very dangerous to do alone.
I have been there in early June. Loads of Crevasse under the snow, it would be very dangerous to do alone.
3
In reply to jon:
Jon, seemingly because I did not mention the word "crevasse" does not mean I am unaware of the terrain going up to the hut, just asking for some thoughts.
Jon, seemingly because I did not mention the word "crevasse" does not mean I am unaware of the terrain going up to the hut, just asking for some thoughts.
1
1
In reply to Simon4:
Yes, very true. I will be spending a week before hand doing a few 3000m routes, hoping that will be adequate but you never know.
Yes, very true. I will be spending a week before hand doing a few 3000m routes, hoping that will be adequate but you never know.
1
In reply to yellow21:
I did it alone July 2013 and stayed two nights at the Margerita with an ascent of the Dufourspitze.
The crevasse was the tiniest step across a filled in dip (but it was a very snowy year). Skiers whizzed down past me as I was coming up and a bit later a guy in robust trainers, jeans and headphones (I kid you not) shambled past. Turns out he was a gofer at the Hut and carried things up and down as required.
As I climbed the final steep trench to the Hut a guided party of 6, tied together came past and I stood to the side. The front man lost his footing and grabbed me as he fell. Happily my ice axe did the trick but it just goes to show that the greatest danger in soloing can be other climbers, not the conditions. I would have gone rather a long way....
Tips:
get acclimatised by a couple of nights at Gnifetti, ascent of Pyramid Vincent first (this is a fairly easy solo)
avoid weekends
make a sensible assessment of crevasse conditions
hook up with others even if you are both "soloing" for safety
make your own sensible judgement and be prepared to turn back if you aren't happy
I did it alone July 2013 and stayed two nights at the Margerita with an ascent of the Dufourspitze.
The crevasse was the tiniest step across a filled in dip (but it was a very snowy year). Skiers whizzed down past me as I was coming up and a bit later a guy in robust trainers, jeans and headphones (I kid you not) shambled past. Turns out he was a gofer at the Hut and carried things up and down as required.
As I climbed the final steep trench to the Hut a guided party of 6, tied together came past and I stood to the side. The front man lost his footing and grabbed me as he fell. Happily my ice axe did the trick but it just goes to show that the greatest danger in soloing can be other climbers, not the conditions. I would have gone rather a long way....
Tips:
get acclimatised by a couple of nights at Gnifetti, ascent of Pyramid Vincent first (this is a fairly easy solo)
avoid weekends
make a sensible assessment of crevasse conditions
hook up with others even if you are both "soloing" for safety
make your own sensible judgement and be prepared to turn back if you aren't happy
3
In reply to yellow21:
OK, well my thoughts are solely crevasse related. All other aspects of the route couldn't be more straightforward.
> Jon, seemingly because I did not mention the word "crevasse" does not mean I am unaware of the terrain going up to the hut, just asking for some thoughts.
OK, well my thoughts are solely crevasse related. All other aspects of the route couldn't be more straightforward.
1
In reply to yellow21:
Well you could indeed stay at least 2 nights at the Gnifetti, climb the Pyramid Vincent on the first one and descend back to the hut, then go to the M the next day.
Beware though, acclimitisation does not happen that rapidly, you need to do it at least a week beforehand for the changes in your body to take effect. One thing you could do is to go to Cogne, normally thought of as a Winter ice-climbing venue, but has quite a lot of bivi huts at or around 3000m. These can be walked to, you can spend the night there and then climb (walk rather), up peaks of around 3400 m the next day.
Well you could indeed stay at least 2 nights at the Gnifetti, climb the Pyramid Vincent on the first one and descend back to the hut, then go to the M the next day.
Beware though, acclimitisation does not happen that rapidly, you need to do it at least a week beforehand for the changes in your body to take effect. One thing you could do is to go to Cogne, normally thought of as a Winter ice-climbing venue, but has quite a lot of bivi huts at or around 3000m. These can be walked to, you can spend the night there and then climb (walk rather), up peaks of around 3400 m the next day.
1
In reply to yellow21:
In good weather and snow, the route is a very well-trodden piste all the way with only a couple of obvious crevasses and nothing more than a walk. However, underneath it is a surprisingly crevassed glacier (I have done the route in good conditions with just 2 visible crevasses, and in lean conditions with well over 50 to just half way - obviously all there underneath all the time). It is very high and quite featureless in places so navigating in mist without a track would be tricky - some people died a few years ago after getting lost in such conditions. Your choice.
> Jon, seemingly because I did not mention the word "crevasse" does not mean I am unaware of the terrain going up to the hut, just asking for some thoughts.
In good weather and snow, the route is a very well-trodden piste all the way with only a couple of obvious crevasses and nothing more than a walk. However, underneath it is a surprisingly crevassed glacier (I have done the route in good conditions with just 2 visible crevasses, and in lean conditions with well over 50 to just half way - obviously all there underneath all the time). It is very high and quite featureless in places so navigating in mist without a track would be tricky - some people died a few years ago after getting lost in such conditions. Your choice.
1
In reply to MG:
Yes, thanks for letting me know of your experience. Would definitely want to be roped to someone and have a second set of eyes. Now to find a buddy (or a few) to join!
Yes, thanks for letting me know of your experience. Would definitely want to be roped to someone and have a second set of eyes. Now to find a buddy (or a few) to join!
In reply to jon:
My concern too - Just want to find someone (or a couple of people for that matter) who would want to form a group and go up together. Have always had friends with me in the past but this trip I won't
My concern too - Just want to find someone (or a couple of people for that matter) who would want to form a group and go up together. Have always had friends with me in the past but this trip I won't
1
In reply to yellow21:
PM me and I can suggest some huts and peaks to go up.
Curiously you need to buy a map out of the valley before you arrive, I was not able to get one in Cogne itself (Italian maps are STILL not up to IGN or Ordnance Survey standards). I don't know how easy it is to get a map in Aosta, the large town nearby.
In high Summer, you need to start walking pretty early, certainly not later than 8 in the morning. The valley around Cogne turns into an oven as the day progresses, if you can get to 2500m before then, it is fine. This will be entirely on mountain paths, up to at least 2700m.
PM me and I can suggest some huts and peaks to go up.
Curiously you need to buy a map out of the valley before you arrive, I was not able to get one in Cogne itself (Italian maps are STILL not up to IGN or Ordnance Survey standards). I don't know how easy it is to get a map in Aosta, the large town nearby.
In high Summer, you need to start walking pretty early, certainly not later than 8 in the morning. The valley around Cogne turns into an oven as the day progresses, if you can get to 2500m before then, it is fine. This will be entirely on mountain paths, up to at least 2700m.
Post edited at 11:16
In reply to Simon4:
Some vaguely accurate notes here too.
http://www.abmsac.org.uk/Alpine%20Climbing%20in%20the%20Mountains%20of%20Co...
> PM me and I can suggest some huts and peaks to go up.
Some vaguely accurate notes here too.
http://www.abmsac.org.uk/Alpine%20Climbing%20in%20the%20Mountains%20of%20Co...
In reply to Simon4:
The glacier and snow cover would've extended a lot further into the valley back then - possibly meaning that any route comparisons between now and then don't mean very much (?).
> I suppose the poles of the sedan chair could count as a rather innovative precaution against crevasses, as they will bridge most of them. A bit hard on the poor chair carriers though, unless they can cling on to the ends very hard if they fall through.
> If the queen was carried, how did the ladies in waiting get up there?
The glacier and snow cover would've extended a lot further into the valley back then - possibly meaning that any route comparisons between now and then don't mean very much (?).
In reply to SenzuBean:
Well as Jon has pointed out, I really don't know much about her majesties' ascent, apart from the fact that it occurred, with more or less assistance. I recall pictures of her in a skirt and stout boots in the hut itself, but that was quite a long time ago (I also recall being warmly welcomed to the hut by a beautiful, honey-blonde but dark-skinned Italian girl, but that may be an altitude induced, wish-fulfillment, hallucination - I can't guarantee to the OP that this will still happen if he gets to the hut, surely worth braving any number of crevasses for, or even be really sure it happened to me).
The building of the hut, so high, so early was a fantastic achievement, doubtless by innumerable Italian peasants, quite apart from the remarkable day when they got the queen and her attendants up there. Consider what was involved with building the new Gouter refuge, with helicopters, pre-build in the valley and huge amounts of knowledge and planning about the location beforehand :
youtube.com/watch?v=2mXufptlUwg&
Well as Jon has pointed out, I really don't know much about her majesties' ascent, apart from the fact that it occurred, with more or less assistance. I recall pictures of her in a skirt and stout boots in the hut itself, but that was quite a long time ago (I also recall being warmly welcomed to the hut by a beautiful, honey-blonde but dark-skinned Italian girl, but that may be an altitude induced, wish-fulfillment, hallucination - I can't guarantee to the OP that this will still happen if he gets to the hut, surely worth braving any number of crevasses for, or even be really sure it happened to me).
The building of the hut, so high, so early was a fantastic achievement, doubtless by innumerable Italian peasants, quite apart from the remarkable day when they got the queen and her attendants up there. Consider what was involved with building the new Gouter refuge, with helicopters, pre-build in the valley and huge amounts of knowledge and planning about the location beforehand :
youtube.com/watch?v=2mXufptlUwg&
Post edited at 11:43
In reply to Simon4:
She's had a beard and a deep voice every time I've been there.
> warmly welcomed to the hut by a beautiful, honey-blonde but dark-skinned Italian girl
She's had a beard and a deep voice every time I've been there.
In reply to MG:
Nice article Martin!
I may go back to try the Grivola sometime, impressive peak. The OP would be well advised to spend the night at the Gratton hut, then climb the hill/peak above it whose name escapes me, which I was falsely told by an Italian guide was 3400m (it turned out to be closer to 3600m), the next morning.
> Some vaguely accurate notes here
Nice article Martin!
I may go back to try the Grivola sometime, impressive peak. The OP would be well advised to spend the night at the Gratton hut, then climb the hill/peak above it whose name escapes me, which I was falsely told by an Italian guide was 3400m (it turned out to be closer to 3600m), the next morning.
In reply to Simon4:
Try the ENE ridge of La Grivola, from the Balzola hut (no water) you will enjoy it. Descend the same way or the normal route. *NOT* the S ridge.
Punta Rossa, perhaps?
Try the ENE ridge of La Grivola, from the Balzola hut (no water) you will enjoy it. Descend the same way or the normal route. *NOT* the S ridge.
Punta Rossa, perhaps?
Post edited at 16:01
In reply to MG:
Just so :
http://www.camptocamp.org/routes/56909/it/pointe-rousse-grivola-dal-bivacco...
The map shows the Gratton refuge and the Punta, nothing more than a walk and a good preparation for the OP.
Quite a big vertical interval from the valley to the refuge, 1700 vertical m.
> Punta Rossa, perhaps?
Just so :
http://www.camptocamp.org/routes/56909/it/pointe-rousse-grivola-dal-bivacco...
The map shows the Gratton refuge and the Punta, nothing more than a walk and a good preparation for the OP.
Quite a big vertical interval from the valley to the refuge, 1700 vertical m.
Post edited at 15:52
In reply to Babika:
Actually, while I'm here - I may as well ask even if it sounds silly. What's the likelihood of linking up heading to Gnifetti, doing Pyramid Vincent etc. and then meeting people/soloists/groups who would be willing to travel together up to Margarita? In NZ I didn't have a problem meeting people and linking up but not sure what the scene is like over in Eu.
Actually, while I'm here - I may as well ask even if it sounds silly. What's the likelihood of linking up heading to Gnifetti, doing Pyramid Vincent etc. and then meeting people/soloists/groups who would be willing to travel together up to Margarita? In NZ I didn't have a problem meeting people and linking up but not sure what the scene is like over in Eu.
In reply to yellow21:
Based on limited experience, possibly.
That said, I'm looking to climb in that area in July or August as well so feel free to PM if you want.
Based on limited experience, possibly.
That said, I'm looking to climb in that area in July or August as well so feel free to PM if you want.
In reply to yellow21:
I had a brilliant trip to the Gran Paradiso national Park a couple of years ago, entirely on public transport from Turin Airport. The voie normale was straightforward apart from the exposed scramble at the top, where a rope would have been welcome in the mayhem! Then I walked over to Cogne via Col Lauson at 3299m. Bought a map there.
This is really useful;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-4000m-Peaks-Alps-Selected/dp/0900523662
I had a brilliant trip to the Gran Paradiso national Park a couple of years ago, entirely on public transport from Turin Airport. The voie normale was straightforward apart from the exposed scramble at the top, where a rope would have been welcome in the mayhem! Then I walked over to Cogne via Col Lauson at 3299m. Bought a map there.
This is really useful;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-4000m-Peaks-Alps-Selected/dp/0900523662
In reply to yellow21:
I would say you have a good possibility. The Gnifetti is huge, there will be all nationalities and you can easily strike up conversation over dinner assuming you book in for food and don't just do your own thing. Just beware of guided pairs. They are always super friendly In Italy (guide and client) but would be tricky, and a bit rude, to get in on the arrangement.
At the Margharita Hut I found an unusual surplus of spare folk - of the 5 Slovakians in my dorm 4 were simply too ill (altitude) to get up the next day and do the Dufourspitze, so 1 guy was desperate for a partner. But I still think you'll be fine on your own up to Signallkuppe.
> Actually, while I'm here - I may as well ask even if it sounds silly. What's the likelihood of linking up heading to Gnifetti, doing Pyramid Vincent etc. and then meeting people/soloists/groups who would be willing to travel together up to Margarita? In NZ I didn't have a problem meeting people and linking up but not sure what the scene is like over in Eu.
I would say you have a good possibility. The Gnifetti is huge, there will be all nationalities and you can easily strike up conversation over dinner assuming you book in for food and don't just do your own thing. Just beware of guided pairs. They are always super friendly In Italy (guide and client) but would be tricky, and a bit rude, to get in on the arrangement.
At the Margharita Hut I found an unusual surplus of spare folk - of the 5 Slovakians in my dorm 4 were simply too ill (altitude) to get up the next day and do the Dufourspitze, so 1 guy was desperate for a partner. But I still think you'll be fine on your own up to Signallkuppe.
In reply to yellow21:
I saw some holes through the snow on my trip up the Signalkuppe, glad I was roped up.
I saw some holes through the snow on my trip up the Signalkuppe, glad I was roped up.
In reply to Misha: Gnifetti no problem solo, only about a 500m snowfield to cross- I didn't see anyone with a rope on that. Going up to the Margherita might be ok - in good weather there's a trench. However the weather had clagged in enough by morning that we just went straight down in the cloud. Only a few cms of snow but the trench was completely covered. So gong up might not be a problem but in poor weather getting back down definitely would be in my opinion. Best option would be to find a friendly and not too serious team to hook up with at the Gnifetti, and buy them beer....
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