UKC

Throughout the history of climbing and mountaineering there have been 'Last Great Problems.' Consistently, these have been climbed and the list has been reassessed. Has climbing got to a stage now where the infinite supply of projects is running out? Perhaps there is such a fine line now between the possible and the impossible.

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In reply to UKC Articles:

Great article Nick!

In reply to UKC Articles:

That's a great line from Johnny Dawes -

It used to be easier to do the moves because the wind was coming up the valley...

In reply to UKC Articles:

Nice article.

"Johnny believes that moving forward, there has to be less emphasis on leading routes. "What's wrong with a slack top rope?" In order to truly climb at one's physical limit on gritstone and move in a way where some of the last great problems are possible, the climbing has to be distilled down to its basic elements. This may be controversial with some, especially on gritstone where some of the strongest ethics in the world apply - but if these problems are to ever be physically climbed..."

For just about any of these to be physically climbed, a top rope will tend to be involved anyway. I guess there is the kudos for whoever actually can link one of these, but of course in order to create a 'route' it would then need to be led!

In reply to UKC Articles:

What a fantastic article

In reply to UKC Articles:

I thought JD did link the moves on Wizard Ridge on toprope, am I misremembering?

In reply to UKC Articles:

Where's that 'impossible groove'?

In reply to pasbury:

Left side of burbage south

In reply to UKC Articles:

"If equipment carries on improving like it has over the past fifty years, such as gear to protect blank rock, then no these things wouldn't be impossible. "

Like bolts?

Just sayin

In reply to bensilvestre:



I suppose it's conceivable for some technology to appear ( say some kind of adhesive ) that can give you 99.9% reliable protection on blank rock and then be removed without leaving a trace. The question then becomes is it still a trad route, if you can place bomber gear anywhere you like?

In reply to bensilvestre:

Presumably the arête is out...

In reply to pasbury:

Yeah i think the arete is like v5 or something

In reply to UKC Articles:


Should that be to the "right" of Ulysses, or has GG been elevated to a LGP?

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Thanks! Sorted.

Nick

In reply to Nick Brown - UKC:

Good stuff

In reply to planetmarshall:


It's not just conceivable, but already being worked on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_setae

Of course it'd still be trad climbing IMO - as there are still rock faces without large smooth panels to attach this new technology, and it would still require immense skill to actually place it correctly to have it be able to hold a fall. It's analogous to cams in that respect - that while they did open up new routes, and make others easier - they don't magically let you climb everything, and still require skill to operate safely.

In reply to UKC Articles:

'A Last Great Problem is lurking somewhere...' [in the photo.]

Indeed!

Mick

In reply to UKC Articles:

What _are_ the last great problems then? Lets make a list...
Wizard Ridge
Impossible Groove
Lawrencefield wall
...
...

In reply to Toerag:

The arête left of Easy Pickings at Lawrencefield
Greedy Pig direct at Froggatt
Direct start (through the roof) to Wuthering at Stanage

There is a list of all the classics on the gritlist wiki but I can't seem to get on it on my phone.

In reply to Toerag:

http://www.oocities.org/readza1/climbing/gritlist/grit_lgp.html

Some are no longer projects

In reply to UKC Articles:

Think you should check the space key on on your keyboard. Some proof-reading required!

Nice article nonetheless, but let's have something next time that's not about grit ... yet again.

</moan>

In reply to UKC Articles:

There's a really obvious, huge (for grit) unclimbed face at Wimburry, I've never heard anyone mention it or seen it in any lists, maybe its assumed to be impossible. Its right of Blue Light Crack and left of The Possesed. What a crag for really hard routes!

In reply to deacondeacon:


It's a lovely feature - but wouldn't it be very artificial?

Eek, have just realised it's nearly 30 years since I last passed this way. Made it through Greedy Pig onto Brightside, with no remaining gear, so had to jump off. ("You won't need any gear 'cos you won't get that far..." )

It's a pity the route doesn't follow that feature but you have to take the line of least resistance - which Paul did with Greedy Pig.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Not sure what you mean by artificial Mick. It's a perfectly plum thin crack and the obvious line of the buttress.
Scuttling across into Brightside , and not having a crack at the direct finish felt pretty artificial to me.
Although being a punter and remembering I had no place to be trying to onsight an LGP I quickly scuttled over to Brightside.


Routes have gotten straightened up and improved upon since time began, if you want to take the line of least resistance you could always walk round the back

In reply to UKC Articles:

Nice article. Would be good to see one for the Lakes, Northumberland etc too.

I wish people would forget about Wizards ridge. It's absolutely rubbish! Yes it's hard (it would have been done by now if it was better though). Yes the feature (from the bottom) is class. But you do a downwards traverse from one move from the top of the crag. It's filthy and the rock is not very nice. I've never been on the wall right of archangel, but that looks way better.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Yeah, but that's not the point, is it? It's Wizzard Ridge, innit?

There's an impressive overhanging scoop at the N end of Stanage somewhere which would make a good line, but it's so long since I've been there I forget exactly where it is.

I remember wandering along and 'discovering' Impossible Groove once. It was a lot harder than I thought it was going to be!

jcm

In reply to deacondeacon:

It's obviously been so long ago, I can barely remember! In fact all I do seem to remember clearly is how lovely that feature is.

Incidentally there's a brilliant photo of Paul Mitchell in extremis on Greedy Pig, at the bottom of that thin crack. To my mind, it's of the most iconic photos ever taken of gritstone climbing and yet I've never seen it in any guide (though it may be now; I'm hopelessly out of touch). It was shot by the immensely talented (at pretty much everything he did), Andy Barker.

Mick

In reply to UKC Articles:

"If equipment carries on improving like it has over the past fifty years, such as gear to protect blank rock, then no these things wouldn't be impossible. "

I don't really buy this idea, it ignores the law of diminishing returns. Gear is limited mostly by placements not technology. I can't see anything realistically circumventing this. The same applies to training. We'll never stop improving but the margin for gain gets ever narrower to the point where it's immeasurably tiny.

In reply to Red Rover: I put a half decent list of LGPs on moorland grit into Over the Moors. The face you're on about is in that list.

In reply to Boy:

It's not really much of a law when it comes to technology. Computer processing power and digital storage being a couple of obvious examples of things that have obeyed a law that is anything but 'diminishing'.

As alluded to above, there are exotic technologies on the horizon that could potentially provide protection that could be easily placed anywhere, removed without leaving a trace and withstand many times the force of a falling climber. I doubt such things will appear in my life time, but the next generations of trad climbers may have to revisit the rules of the game in the face of such advancements.

n reply to Michael Gordon:


... but of course in order to create a 'route' it would then need to be led!

Great article and some impressive climbing on show.

WRT what "leading" is, I do wonder at what point does a clip stick become too long or a stack of bouldering pads too high?

In reply to UKC Articles:

Good article.

There's an obvious LGP down at Goblin Combe in Bristol but i'm buggered if I can get anyone to have a proper look at it.

.....and theres not many LGPs down this way.

In reply to deacondeacon:

I believe the debate on whether Greedy Pig Direct is an LGP is settled now.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Indeed. As of yesterday its been taken off the list!

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

Has someone done it? Any more info?

In reply to Andy Moles:

That's great who was it, grade?
Are are you keeping us in suspenders?

In reply to mark20:

Oooooh!! Gossip! All I can say is he's good at cracks and getting his heel above his head. Reckoned about E6 6c but didn't eliminate crimps out and left(?). If that makes any sense

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

Nice one. Guess I'll have another crack then

In reply to planetmarshall:

Diminishing returns does apply to any gear which relies on a placement in the rock. You can't shrink kit below a certain level because the rock/placement will break before the gear does.
The only possible way of getting around this technical problem is to stick something to blank rock. I don't believe such gear will every exist in any way which will make current grit route LGPs any more doable. The rock would have to be very flat, very smooth and very clean.
Besides, any hypothetical stick-on protection would make a mockery of the concept of leading and would be little/no better than top-roping when it comes to grit length routes. The idea that such items could be placed one handed whilst climbing something beyond the current cutting edge is fanciful nonesense.

In reply to Boy:


Is it much different to a crack where you can place as many pieces as you can carry? And it wouldn't be like top-roping if this theoretical protection wasn't bomber.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


The gear in your example is limited by the placement, in your example the route is well protected because the crack takes gear all the way. If you invented something that was not limited by the placement availability then you could in theory protect any route at any point, in which case leading short routes would be arbitrary. If every route is intrinsically safe to lead then the grade will equal the toprope grade and you might as well just toprope the route instead.
It's all bollocks anyway because this sort of gear is a fantasy.

In reply to Boy:

Of course, but since it seems to be a topic you want to discuss...


So you're saying crack climbs which take endless gear make a mockery of leading?

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


I'm arguing an opposing position. There's nothing contradictory/unusual about doing this in regards to things you think are nonsense.



No, that's just the words you're trying to put in my mouth.
I'm saying a system of protection which is unlimited by the topography of the rock makes a mockery of leading. A crack is part of the rock topography.

In reply to UKC Articles:

So how many of the LGPs on grit would be considered boulder problems or high balls and how many as routes ?

In reply to UKC Articles:

It would also be interesting to put together a list of previous LGP's/existing hardest routes on grit, which have still not had an onsight ascent yet?

In reply to Boy:


Ah yes, just like how the horse and buggy is the crown of modern transport technology and it's just fanciful nonsense to imagine a form of transport that doesn't run on hay and s**t on the road every few metres.

In reply to Boy:


It's called asking a question.


And a blank piece of rock face isn't?

another quality thread eroded down to the usual bullshit.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Yeah, the bad language has started now.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

A disingenuous one used as a rhetorical device. Hence a reply addressing the substance rather than the structure. A straight answer to the question would have been 'no'.

It isn't a limiting factor is my point. In theory you could protect any route at any point, which is the same as being safe all the time from top to bottom on all routes, ergo just like a top rope - on all routes regardless of presence/absence of anything resembling a placement. Hence leading being rendered arbitrary. Not something I'd welcome, but then I'm pretty sure it's just a techno-cornucopianist pipedream.

In reply to Boy:


Well it was a question, and I thought a fair one, but since you seem more keen to sling mud than discuss the logic of it, I'll leave it alone. Pity it always seems to come to this...

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Where did I sling mud?

In reply to UKC Articles:

They probably have, but has anybody done the direct through the roof on Cats Tor yet?

In reply to UKC Articles:

To clarify, Ben Bransby didn't do Bigger Baron as may be inferred from the article. He led Baron Greenback, shortly before Pete led Bigger Baron. I'm also pretty sure that Ben used his plank on an attempt on Baron Greenback, but not on his successful ascent.

In reply to Boy:



The name of your next new problem / route ?