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Have got 2 events coming up in France this year, both of which require a specific medical certificate to say I can take part.
I'm somewhat loathed to waste money and the NHSs time getting proper ones, especially as I have completed one of the events previously.
My first attempt at a self-made certificate was rejected on the basis it didn't have a 'doctors stamp' on it.
Given I could get a rubber stamp made for about 10 quid online this unbelievably seems like the path of least resistance.
Anyone else resorted to such measures?!?
I'm somewhat loathed to waste money and the NHSs time getting proper ones, especially as I have completed one of the events previously.
My first attempt at a self-made certificate was rejected on the basis it didn't have a 'doctors stamp' on it.
Given I could get a rubber stamp made for about 10 quid online this unbelievably seems like the path of least resistance.
Anyone else resorted to such measures?!?
In reply to featuresforfeet:
I've never faked it, but have run about 30 events in France and I'd be surprised if you didn't get away with it as they're never heavily scrutinised. I'm not advocating that though.
When I've had one done in the UK, they don't really have Doctor's stamps, so he signed and put his contact details. This was accepted. Also he charged me nothing (was our office GP who would turn up every 4 weeks). I've heard stories of some UK GPs charging silly amounts for these.
I now live in France and run a dozen events a year and get this stamped and done by my local GP. She takes pulse and blood pressure, listens to my chest, asks about my races and then cheerfully signs the form.
The thing to remember is that a certificate is valid for one year, so you can use the same form for more than one event.
Also, please ensure it says 'course a pied en competition' because they recently changed the rules on the wording. I've got a sample if you need one.
Which events are you doing incidentally? Good luck!
I've never faked it, but have run about 30 events in France and I'd be surprised if you didn't get away with it as they're never heavily scrutinised. I'm not advocating that though.
When I've had one done in the UK, they don't really have Doctor's stamps, so he signed and put his contact details. This was accepted. Also he charged me nothing (was our office GP who would turn up every 4 weeks). I've heard stories of some UK GPs charging silly amounts for these.
I now live in France and run a dozen events a year and get this stamped and done by my local GP. She takes pulse and blood pressure, listens to my chest, asks about my races and then cheerfully signs the form.
The thing to remember is that a certificate is valid for one year, so you can use the same form for more than one event.
Also, please ensure it says 'course a pied en competition' because they recently changed the rules on the wording. I've got a sample if you need one.
Which events are you doing incidentally? Good luck!
Post edited at 13:54
In reply to yorkshireman:
Marathon du Medoc and the Etape. Not sure medical advice is that relevant for the first!
Marathon du Medoc and the Etape. Not sure medical advice is that relevant for the first!
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In reply to featuresforfeet:
Whilst the same thought has crossed my mind, my advice would be to get the certificate legitimately.
I've been to the docs a couple of times for medical certificates for French races. I've always been clear when making an appointment that it wasn't urgent and always been very apologetic / thankful with the staff once there.
On neither occasion has the doctor complained I was wasting their time.
Also, think of the organisers. If there was a reason why you shouldn't race, it's not fair on them to have to deal with any potential medical fallout.
Others, I'm sure, will have other views.
Good Luck.
PS, I'm also sure most doctors would prefer to see their patients staying healthy and fit, thus reducing their potential impact on the NHS, rather than those they see who complain they feel unwell after sitting on their arse all day smoking fags and watching Jeremy Kyle...
Whilst the same thought has crossed my mind, my advice would be to get the certificate legitimately.
I've been to the docs a couple of times for medical certificates for French races. I've always been clear when making an appointment that it wasn't urgent and always been very apologetic / thankful with the staff once there.
On neither occasion has the doctor complained I was wasting their time.
Also, think of the organisers. If there was a reason why you shouldn't race, it's not fair on them to have to deal with any potential medical fallout.
Others, I'm sure, will have other views.
Good Luck.
PS, I'm also sure most doctors would prefer to see their patients staying healthy and fit, thus reducing their potential impact on the NHS, rather than those they see who complain they feel unwell after sitting on their arse all day smoking fags and watching Jeremy Kyle...
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In reply to featuresforfeet:
It's safe to say that the test to get the certificate is absolute bollocks. The most thorough test I have ever done was to perform one burpee without dying. The other ones were all "do you think you're fine?".
However in case of an accident, faking it could have some serious implications if there is an insurance claim to make. Up to you to see if it's worth risking it.
It's safe to say that the test to get the certificate is absolute bollocks. The most thorough test I have ever done was to perform one burpee without dying. The other ones were all "do you think you're fine?".
However in case of an accident, faking it could have some serious implications if there is an insurance claim to make. Up to you to see if it's worth risking it.
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In reply to featuresforfeet:
It's worth remembering that you're far less of a burden to the NHS by being active and needing the odd form stamped than by being inactive and needing expensive medication.
It's worth remembering that you're far less of a burden to the NHS by being active and needing the odd form stamped than by being inactive and needing expensive medication.
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Seems to be quite polarised in the UK with many thinking that as we choose the sport we should pay. But I agree with your sentiment. However as otherwise generally healthy individuals, used to shrugging off discomfort, it probably doesn't hurt us runners to go and see the Doc once a year to get a check up.
This though combines two of France's national sports - paperwork and hypochondria. Going to the Dr here is a national sport and they think nothing of using their time - none of this 7 minute per person lark. I volunteered to take my elderly neighbours to the GP once and sat outside for 90 minutes while they were getting the consultation (admittedly, they had plenty of ailments between them).
> It's worth remembering that you're far less of a burden to the NHS by being active and needing the odd form stamped than by being inactive and needing expensive medication.
Seems to be quite polarised in the UK with many thinking that as we choose the sport we should pay. But I agree with your sentiment. However as otherwise generally healthy individuals, used to shrugging off discomfort, it probably doesn't hurt us runners to go and see the Doc once a year to get a check up.
This though combines two of France's national sports - paperwork and hypochondria. Going to the Dr here is a national sport and they think nothing of using their time - none of this 7 minute per person lark. I volunteered to take my elderly neighbours to the GP once and sat outside for 90 minutes while they were getting the consultation (admittedly, they had plenty of ailments between them).
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
But if you live longer, you'll be a burden on the NHS eventually, and receive more from the state in pension payments....
> It's worth remembering that you're far less of a burden to the NHS by being active and needing the odd form stamped than by being inactive and needing expensive medication.
But if you live longer, you'll be a burden on the NHS eventually, and receive more from the state in pension payments....
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In reply to featuresforfeet:
So what happens if you have actually got an underlying condition that a simple check up might have detected and you drop dead during the event? People do drop dead during sportig events.
*sound of mind boggling gently*
So what happens if you have actually got an underlying condition that a simple check up might have detected and you drop dead during the event? People do drop dead during sportig events.
*sound of mind boggling gently*
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In reply to Rigid Raider:
Somebody dropped dead on a local 20k trail race last year that I was on. As you would expect, it was shocking and sad for all concerned. He was French, would have submitted a medical form and probably not have faked it.
These things happen. However you don't need to supply a medical form for a UK race, just sign a disclaimer, and the risk is just the same. To be honest a medical form might give a false sense of reassurance.
> So what happens if you have actually got an underlying condition that a simple check up might have detected and you drop dead during the event? People do drop dead during sportig events.
Somebody dropped dead on a local 20k trail race last year that I was on. As you would expect, it was shocking and sad for all concerned. He was French, would have submitted a medical form and probably not have faked it.
These things happen. However you don't need to supply a medical form for a UK race, just sign a disclaimer, and the risk is just the same. To be honest a medical form might give a false sense of reassurance.
In reply to Rigid Raider:
I'll be dead and trust me this isn't going to swing the balance as to whether I'm off to hell or not.
Last time I did actually go to the doctor they didn't do anything that would have identified an underlying condition, just asked whether I do said activity regularly. You can get medical certificates online; it has nothing to do with your health, just the organisers covering themselves.
I'll be dead and trust me this isn't going to swing the balance as to whether I'm off to hell or not.
Last time I did actually go to the doctor they didn't do anything that would have identified an underlying condition, just asked whether I do said activity regularly. You can get medical certificates online; it has nothing to do with your health, just the organisers covering themselves.
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In reply to featuresforfeet:
I've always faked mine for French cycling events. My surgery wanted £40 for a certificate - and it's not as if they would do more than take your blood pressure and ask if you feel okay.
I've always faked mine for French cycling events. My surgery wanted £40 for a certificate - and it's not as if they would do more than take your blood pressure and ask if you feel okay.
In reply to Rigid Raider:
Given that professional footballers with high levels of medical support and monitoring sometimes drop dead, I don't think the level of checks a GP would carry-out is likely to identify issues not brought to light by previous athletic activity.
Given that professional footballers with high levels of medical support and monitoring sometimes drop dead, I don't think the level of checks a GP would carry-out is likely to identify issues not brought to light by previous athletic activity.
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In reply to featuresforfeet:
This is something that gets GPs annoyed. Not with the individual presenting the form for stamping, but with the constant flow of mindless form filling that flows over their desk. It is not an NHS service, so a charge is very reasonable for any input.
Screening before participation in Sport is controversial. Fabrice Muamba had been screened more than once I believe, representing the substantial investment that a premiership player requires. Even the best data suggests that a large number of people, more than one hundred, would have to be excluded from sport to prevent one sport associated death, and other studies show less benefit.
I would not advocate fraud, but if you want to do the race, you need the form.
This is something that gets GPs annoyed. Not with the individual presenting the form for stamping, but with the constant flow of mindless form filling that flows over their desk. It is not an NHS service, so a charge is very reasonable for any input.
Screening before participation in Sport is controversial. Fabrice Muamba had been screened more than once I believe, representing the substantial investment that a premiership player requires. Even the best data suggests that a large number of people, more than one hundred, would have to be excluded from sport to prevent one sport associated death, and other studies show less benefit.
I would not advocate fraud, but if you want to do the race, you need the form.
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In reply to featuresforfeet:
I'm also doing the Etape and live in France.
I went to get my medical certificate last year. They refused to give it to me and sent me to the cardiologist.
After a subsequent examination etc they confirmed that I'm suitably healthy, gave me a medical certificate covering a range of sports.
The reason - my resting heart rate is 38-42bpm, which they considered cause for investigation. Whilst I was frustrated (as I couldn't enter a local running race I wanted to) and all was ok in the end, if I had had an issue, it would have been good to know, so kudos to them for standing by their process.
Whilst I still think it frustrating and pointless - it is a good way to get some of the population to have a general checkup and sense check with the local doctor, which isn't a bad thing (if only our doctors had time available and didn't have more pressing matters to attend to).
I'm also doing the Etape and live in France.
I went to get my medical certificate last year. They refused to give it to me and sent me to the cardiologist.
After a subsequent examination etc they confirmed that I'm suitably healthy, gave me a medical certificate covering a range of sports.
The reason - my resting heart rate is 38-42bpm, which they considered cause for investigation. Whilst I was frustrated (as I couldn't enter a local running race I wanted to) and all was ok in the end, if I had had an issue, it would have been good to know, so kudos to them for standing by their process.
Whilst I still think it frustrating and pointless - it is a good way to get some of the population to have a general checkup and sense check with the local doctor, which isn't a bad thing (if only our doctors had time available and didn't have more pressing matters to attend to).
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As far as I'm aware it's not the race organisers insisting on this, they have to do it by law.
In my opinion it's not a bad idea at all. For many (most?) people this is little more than a formality, if you present at your health centre looking the right shape and with a "clean" record then your doctor will probably do what mine does and have a chat about the race and how often you train etc, sign the form and send you on your way. On the other hand there are many people who enter events for which they're not really prepared, especially marathons and half marathons as they are seen as a one-off challenge, and presenting as slightly overweight and not very fit individual who perhaps already has a health record which might indicate a concern will give the doctor a chance to assess you more thoroughly.
In my opinion it's not a bad idea at all. For many (most?) people this is little more than a formality, if you present at your health centre looking the right shape and with a "clean" record then your doctor will probably do what mine does and have a chat about the race and how often you train etc, sign the form and send you on your way. On the other hand there are many people who enter events for which they're not really prepared, especially marathons and half marathons as they are seen as a one-off challenge, and presenting as slightly overweight and not very fit individual who perhaps already has a health record which might indicate a concern will give the doctor a chance to assess you more thoroughly.
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In reply to john irving:
Yes, these forms are useless all round, and sensible GPs won't touch them with a barge pole: not just because of the resource issues, but because forms that ask for a vague "fit for..." Statement are about shifting liability. There's little you can do in a 15min general exam to exclude all significant possible conditions.
A well constructed form would just ask for past medical conditions, and maybe exclude some specific conditions or signs. Saying someone is "fit for" something like a race is vague, and legally hard to defend. Either you need a very stict set of medial standards to compare against or you need a high level of relevant medical experience, for example as a sports doctor or Occupational Health.
Yes, these forms are useless all round, and sensible GPs won't touch them with a barge pole: not just because of the resource issues, but because forms that ask for a vague "fit for..." Statement are about shifting liability. There's little you can do in a 15min general exam to exclude all significant possible conditions.
A well constructed form would just ask for past medical conditions, and maybe exclude some specific conditions or signs. Saying someone is "fit for" something like a race is vague, and legally hard to defend. Either you need a very stict set of medial standards to compare against or you need a high level of relevant medical experience, for example as a sports doctor or Occupational Health.
In reply to featuresforfeet:
First, providing such a certificate is not a NHS service, so your GP is likely to charge for it.
Second, it may be seen as transferring any liability for any incident onto the GP's medical defence organisation's insurance, which the GP pays for personally.
Third, very few GPs are trained in (extreme) sports medicine and may well decline to undertake a non NHS service, that could potentially provide lots of hassle for very little reward.
If, when practising, I was asked to provide such a certificate, I would alter the wording to read: 'I have reviewed X' s medical records and undertaken a limited assessment, I have found no reason to suggest that X should not undertake the activity'. Alternatively, I would ask the patient to contact the organiser to request their medical standard for participation.
First, providing such a certificate is not a NHS service, so your GP is likely to charge for it.
Second, it may be seen as transferring any liability for any incident onto the GP's medical defence organisation's insurance, which the GP pays for personally.
Third, very few GPs are trained in (extreme) sports medicine and may well decline to undertake a non NHS service, that could potentially provide lots of hassle for very little reward.
If, when practising, I was asked to provide such a certificate, I would alter the wording to read: 'I have reviewed X' s medical records and undertaken a limited assessment, I have found no reason to suggest that X should not undertake the activity'. Alternatively, I would ask the patient to contact the organiser to request their medical standard for participation.
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In reply to Removed Usersimonridout:
Your asking for a consultation with your doctor so that he/she can advise you whether or not you should undertake a form of exercise - I thought this was encouraged? That is an NHS service (unless things are now worse than I thought) - signing the form is just a formal reflection of that. As a medical professional would you want to encourage the public not to seek medical advice before embarking on physical activity?
It might be seen that way, but that is just ignorance of what the form is used for - this is in no way transferring liability to anyone. It is simply showing the race organiser that you've taken medical advice before racing.
Again, the certificate simply asks to state that you are not aware of any contra-indications for competitive running (I use the same form for 10Ks and ultras). It is fairly simple and is not asking GPs to do anything for which they're not medically trained. French GPs do this all the time.
And I wouldn't have thanked you for that, especially if you'd charged me extra for the privilege. The wording on the certificate is specific so you can't change it and expect it to be accepted. There isn't a 'medical standard' for participation as such, just a request that you confirm via a doctor, that there's no obvious reason why you should be excluded from competing.
I think this topic usually gets blown out of all proportion. Yes, I agree that the whole thing is ridiculous French bureaucracy but those are the rules of competing.
> First, providing such a certificate is not a NHS service, so your GP is likely to charge for it.
Your asking for a consultation with your doctor so that he/she can advise you whether or not you should undertake a form of exercise - I thought this was encouraged? That is an NHS service (unless things are now worse than I thought) - signing the form is just a formal reflection of that. As a medical professional would you want to encourage the public not to seek medical advice before embarking on physical activity?
> Second, it may be seen as transferring any liability for any incident onto the GP's medical defence organisation's insurance, which the GP pays for personally.
It might be seen that way, but that is just ignorance of what the form is used for - this is in no way transferring liability to anyone. It is simply showing the race organiser that you've taken medical advice before racing.
> Third, very few GPs are trained in (extreme) sports medicine and may well decline to undertake a non NHS service, that could potentially provide lots of hassle for very little reward.
Again, the certificate simply asks to state that you are not aware of any contra-indications for competitive running (I use the same form for 10Ks and ultras). It is fairly simple and is not asking GPs to do anything for which they're not medically trained. French GPs do this all the time.
> If, when practising, I was asked to provide such a certificate, I would alter the wording to read: 'I have reviewed X' s medical records and undertaken a limited assessment, I have found no reason to suggest that X should not undertake the activity'. Alternatively, I would ask the patient to contact the organiser to request their medical standard for participation.
And I wouldn't have thanked you for that, especially if you'd charged me extra for the privilege. The wording on the certificate is specific so you can't change it and expect it to be accepted. There isn't a 'medical standard' for participation as such, just a request that you confirm via a doctor, that there's no obvious reason why you should be excluded from competing.
I think this topic usually gets blown out of all proportion. Yes, I agree that the whole thing is ridiculous French bureaucracy but those are the rules of competing.
Post edited at 09:29
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In reply to featuresforfeet:
Fake everytime.
The lady at the Etape last year took some persuading that Little Wenlock was indeed a real place, even if it's medical practice and Dr V Alley-Parade were made up.
Fake everytime.
The lady at the Etape last year took some persuading that Little Wenlock was indeed a real place, even if it's medical practice and Dr V Alley-Parade were made up.
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In reply to featuresforfeet:
You won't be wasting the NHS time. When I did mine I was seen outside core hours. The doctor offered to do a 'half' medical, essentially 5mins for just some simple checks and a questionnaire.
He said he would have just signed it and sent it out to me but he hadn't seen me for 4years and thought it would be negligent if he hadn't at least seen me in the flesh.
Think it was £75, could have been £150.
Various doctors will do this for free I up to £150. There's no normal set amount.
The only issue I can think of is there is a problem and they find you have faked your certificate then their insurance will run rings round you.
The certificate lasts for a year and will cost less than a new pair of shoes or a return ticket to Paris.
The funniest question was "Do you excercise regularly?"
You won't be wasting the NHS time. When I did mine I was seen outside core hours. The doctor offered to do a 'half' medical, essentially 5mins for just some simple checks and a questionnaire.
He said he would have just signed it and sent it out to me but he hadn't seen me for 4years and thought it would be negligent if he hadn't at least seen me in the flesh.
Think it was £75, could have been £150.
Various doctors will do this for free I up to £150. There's no normal set amount.
The only issue I can think of is there is a problem and they find you have faked your certificate then their insurance will run rings round you.
The certificate lasts for a year and will cost less than a new pair of shoes or a return ticket to Paris.
The funniest question was "Do you excercise regularly?"
Post edited at 10:50
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In reply to yorkshireman:
The NHS is for treating you when you are ill, not certifying that you are well (despite the Governments BS rhetoric over sick notes). As has been noted above, to sensitively test for many serious contraindications to strenuous exercise is non-trivial, the question 'do you routinely exercise at these intensities without problems?' is probably as effective as anything a GP can do in 10 minutes.
Furthermore you will note the people who recommend you consult a physician before undertaking exercise almost invariably are gyms, personal trainers, event organisers and equipment suppliers - IE all the people who don't want to be liable for encouraging you to exercise in case you keel over and die. It all comes down to the culture of perceived liability/covering ones assess that pervades modern society - in reality it should be up to the individual to recognise their limits, know if their body is telling them somethings wrong and to not over-do it and seek medical attention if there is a problem. But that would be too much like treating people as independent adults who are responsible themselves...
> Your asking for a consultation with your doctor so that he/she can advise you whether or not you should undertake a form of exercise - I thought this was encouraged? That is an NHS service (unless things are now worse than I thought) - signing the form is just a formal reflection of that. As a medical professional would you want to encourage the public not to seek medical advice before embarking on physical activity?
> It might be seen that way, but that is just ignorance of what the form is used for - this is in no way transferring liability to anyone. It is simply showing the race organiser that you've taken medical advice before racing.
The NHS is for treating you when you are ill, not certifying that you are well (despite the Governments BS rhetoric over sick notes). As has been noted above, to sensitively test for many serious contraindications to strenuous exercise is non-trivial, the question 'do you routinely exercise at these intensities without problems?' is probably as effective as anything a GP can do in 10 minutes.
Furthermore you will note the people who recommend you consult a physician before undertaking exercise almost invariably are gyms, personal trainers, event organisers and equipment suppliers - IE all the people who don't want to be liable for encouraging you to exercise in case you keel over and die. It all comes down to the culture of perceived liability/covering ones assess that pervades modern society - in reality it should be up to the individual to recognise their limits, know if their body is telling them somethings wrong and to not over-do it and seek medical attention if there is a problem. But that would be too much like treating people as independent adults who are responsible themselves...
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