UKC

Hi, im wanting some advice on how to improve my climbing and confidence!

For a while now myself and my partner have a few years experience scrambling. The last two years we have been doing some climbing too, led upto vdiff outdoors and recently started indoor climbing.
We have been bouldering indoors to try improve our climbing which I think helps.

Basically it is always us two together so we don't really have anyone 'better' to learn from.

I know we could do some courses but I don't really want to be paying out for them when I could be spending the money on other things!

None of our mate's are into the great outdoors hence why it's only us!
Any ideas what we should do? Shall we keep bouldering to improve our climbing and confidence?

Thanks in advance

In reply to mc2006:
Hi,

I'd strongly suggest you join a reputable climbing club. This will mean you can learn from more experienced people. The problem with trad climbing is surviving the learning curve; the early days are apt to be the most dangerous. In learning anything, inevitably we make mistakes - but, with trad climbing, these mistakes can have dire consequences. Once you iron out most of these mistakes (and errors of judgement), the game becomes much safer - although never regard it as entirely safe because it isn't.

Given where you are, in climbing terms, at the moment (and we were all there at one time or another!), if it were me, I'd do routes inside, rather than bouldering. Do loads of 3s, 4s, etc. Doesn't matter whether you get up them or not; concentrate on good technique, particularly footwork. If you can, do low level traverses, again concentrating on good footwork. Good footwork is the best investment anybody can make in climbing.

You have so much climbing joy ahead of you - good luck!

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Cheers for the reply, yes that's a good idea about joining a club.
When we go to the indoor wall im climbing 4s comfortably, 5s im finding quite difficult but mainly due to fitness! (Top roping, haven't bothered lead climbing indoors yet as I thought id be best improving my climbing before I add lead climbing to it)

In reply to mc2006:

Clubs vary. Some are brilliant, most are pretty good, some (sadly) are cliquey. Ultimately, as in anything, either people will be keen to help you or they won't. If the latter, don't waste time - find another club! Most of the time though, people will be really helpful. We all had to learn from others and everybody in climbing knows that. So they know (or should know) to pay back. But, simplistically, in climbing, you'll tend to encounter pretty altruistic people and pretty selfish ones. Stick to the former!

Re indoor climbing, sure, depends on the wall but many walls have steep, juggy 5s, which are ridiculously pumpy. You almost never get climbing like that in the UK! So, while they're good for fitness, don't worry too much about them. More easily angled 5s, which require good footwork, will be far more valuable for you right now.

I would start leading (indoors) as soon as possible. If 4s are OK, are there any 3s you could lead? Or, if you've top-roped a 4 OK, could you then lead it? And could you have a go at 4s that you haven't top-roped? (Depends on how you're feeling.) It's just that leading is such a fundamental skill - working out what you're doing, clipping, resting, reading the plastic/rock, committing to a move. And the sooner you begin, the better. Leading on a climbing wall is pretty much as safe as it gets - but, if you're nervous, why not ask a staff member if they'd mind watching you just for a couple of minutes to make sure you/your belayer's doing everything OK?

The important thing to remember is that every last one of us has been where you are now! And the good thing is that a world of delight awaits you. You just have to enter it... safely.

Mick

In reply to mc2006:

Good advice from Mick on the whole, although I'm inclined to disagree with some of it.

Bouldering is definitely the best way to improve your climbing. The much more challenging and technical nature of bouldering will see your technique and strength improve rapidly. Climbing 3's and 4's will certainly not have this effect.

High bouldering volume will also give a much better power endurance base, especially if doing multiple problems in quick succession.

Definitely join a climbing club - it's a great way to touch base with the climbing community and meet some friends with similar passions!

Enjoy the journey

In reply to mc2006:

What are you prepared to put in?
You clearly state that you would rather not put in any money.
Clubs are very good with many people prepared to put a lot into helping people. They give up their time to teach people and run the club, maintain huts and all sorts. But people in clubs eventually get brassed off with people rocking up and having the climbing experience which is effectively free guiding by often very very experienced climbers, only for the "new members" to drift off to something else.
Mick says clubs can be cliquey, and I do know what he means, but really it is like other groups of people, they meet up after a couple of months of not seeing each other, and obviously despite all best intentions, they gravitate to the people they have known for years. But if YOU wait for a short while (10 mins), then YOU make an effort and say "Hi, I am Fred, I am new around here" they will take you under their wing. And to be honest if you have not got the bollocks to introduce yourself to someone, I doubt you have the bollocks for climbing.
Now I can clearly see that this could all be taken as negative.
So to finish, a Climbing Club could be brilliant for you. It could enable you to climb to the highest of standards, get you the best of instruction, a social network and access to years of experience and climbing huts.

In reply to mc2006:


I think it's a great way to improve your technique and get stronger in the process. To some extend, fitness will come and go, I see gains in technique and strength as being key to long term improvement. Bouldering is ideal.

Getting over mental handicaps is also worth doing as soon as possible, otherwise they'll always hinder you. As soon as you can lead overhanging indoor routes, get comfortable falling off when it's safe to do so, and then get used to climbing until you do fall. Not because you'll want to be doing this on vdiffs, it's about being able to push your limits physically.

In reply to mc2006:

Hi,

I'd suggest get used to leading indoors, and push your grade up to around 6a. Then when you get outdoors to trad climbing you should find S/HS grade routes well within your ability and you can focus on the gear rather than worrying about if you can make the moves.

If you have a good sports crag in your area try some bolted routes, you might find that difficult until you progress a bit as most bolted routes start at 5 and often are harder than the same grad indoors.

In reply to MischaHY:

I would say that while bouldering is good for improving your strength it often teaches the wrong technique - bouldering is all about a few short power moves taken with the attitude of try or fall, who cares. For outdoor trad climbing you want to be learning to climbing in control with something in reserve. Hence why I suggested indoor lead as a good starting point.

In reply to treforsouthwell:
I disagree. Outdoor bouldering is way better than indoor sports climbing for improving trad leading. Best done in combination with trad volume on climbs that are not pushing limits. Frankly an indoor F6a sport climber will soon get spanked on severes outdoors as the skill sets simply dont match and the gear isn't where you might want it.

Mick's advice is good too. Climbing with better climbers helps fast progress more than anything else.

In reply to mc2006:


If you want to do trad, and you don't already have a mentor to hand, then seriously, I'd say pay the money to do at least a quick course.

Based on my experience, after that you'll *still* have a tonne to learn, and need to find some more experienced people to climb with during your "apprenticeship" -- clubs are great for that. But then at least you're not turning up and going "hi, I know nothing, so please use your leisure time teaching me from scratch, for free, when you'd rather be doing your own climbing."

I'd also recommend investing in a bouldering mat and starting some outdoor bouldering -- it doesn't require the complex protection skills of trad, so you can go out on your own or with your partner, and it'll help you make the connection between the strength and technique you're building indoors and moving on real rock.

In reply to treforsouthwell:

I'd would strongly disagree. Trad climbing isn't about keeping something in reserve at all times - it's about being aware of the consequences of a fall. Falling off is fine as long as the gear is good and the fall zone is sufficient.

Especially on UK routes, leading 6a indoors will be considerably less useful than bouldering regularly and building a strength/endurance base.

In reply to mc2006:
There are so many different approaches that will work, as long as they involve going climbing a lot.

I would use the bouldering wall for honing strength and technique. By getting good at indoor bouldering you will get strong and learn to move like a climber. Indoor route climbing is a bit odd, it doesn't have much in common with trad climbing: I think it's the least useful way to learn to climb trad as the skills are so different.

If you can't hook up with experienced climbers to teach you to lead trad, then I recommend a course. Before you go for a course, make sure you have some experience seconding. Clubs are one way, or posting for partners on here being specific about your experience. Many people learning to be instructors want to have 'practice clients' - this might be handy. With some experience seconding you can then do a 'learn to lead' course which will teach you everything you need to know for a lifetime of successful trad climbing. This might be more efficient that joining a club and finding the right person to teach you these skills for free/beer. Less awkward too.

In reply to MischaHY:


I think this comes in more with high-end trad than learning trad. In order to get safely up for the first 50 or 100 trad routes, is a good idea to be doing it without descent into gibbering terror, absolutely boxed and at the point of falling. Pushing your limit with a rational undertstanding of the likelihood and consequences of a fall is crucial in the mid-E grades, but below that, staying in control with some in reserve is pretty wise.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Absolutely agreed!

Not just budding professionals, but UKC has been very good to many punters down through the years (including myself) when I'm stuck for someone to climb with.

I find that UKC is a bit like a second club (I am a member of the Cairngorm Club) of which I am a member.

I can guarantee to the OP that there will always be safe and experienced folk on UKC who want to lead outdoors at (at least some of the time) an appropriate grade which would be a good challenge for the OP (S-HS, perhaps?).

M

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Granted, a strong understanding of gear placement and fall consequences is crucial before approaching harder routes.

Thanks everyone for your advice and opinions.
I think it's sound's like a good option would be seconding more experienced to gain experience and watch others climbing techniques.

As for clubs it does sound a good idea but like someone said, I would feel cheeky as I would be basically using them to learn from.

Reading the replies it sounds like.....
Doing some bouldering to develop skills and strength, indoor lead climbing to build confidence (relating to not worrying about falls) and lastly getting out with some friendly experienced guys and second some routes.

In reply to Mark Bannan:

Thanks for that Mark. Well I will look into getting out this week hopefully and see if I can get out with someone with who I can learn from and in return belay them and buy them a pint 😀

In reply to Offwidth:





I think there is more than one way to approach things, personally I haven't done any outdoor bouldering and nor do a plan too as it seems way to dangerous and also expensive (requiring lots of high priced mats), I guess if I had time to go out in a group then it maybe different - but with a busy work schedule I only want to climb when I want to climb.

I still think a competent indoor 6a leader should be able to second up to VS grade, of course leading these routes requires more skills.

In reply to mc2006:

No bother! Cheers for the reply.

M

In reply to treforsouthwell:


I'm a thoroughly incompetent 6a leader indoors. I'd be surprised if I could lead half of them without rests. But I've led more than a hundred VSs outdoors. It all depends where you focus your efforts. Do the one you enjoy most.

In reply to mc2006:
from my experiences of moving into trad over the last few years, training wise -

1. slabby problems at the bouldering wall. Very slowly, taking breaks of up to 1 min between moves, as if placing gear. Great for building up resistance to ankle pump. Up climb, then down climb and repeat until you're so pumped you fall off.
Also, Spend lots of time as high as possible, maybe high level traverses. This gets you used to being in airy positions when it wouldn't be good to take a fall.

2. low level traverses at local trad crag, roped up, but with no belayer, placing gear along the way. Stripping it out on the return traverse. repeat until gubbed.

3. Get yourself leading sport routes at your wall ASAP. Stick to the lowest grades, but pick the longest routes possible. Again, climb them as slowly as possible, as if leading a trad route, pausing between every move.

4. mix all of this with crimpy smeary boulder problems at the bouldering wall to practice footwork for crux moves on your trad routes where you have to keep moving and you can't hang about thinking on every move.

It's worked OK for me and I'm slowly getting there.

In reply to ogreville:


I wish more people would do this.

In reply to treforsouthwell:
Of course there is more than one way. The way I suggested was based on efficient and less risky progress I've seen from many climbers in my club and others and those starting off on their own and finding partners in UKC.. I've also seen slow risky, slow less risky and fast risky. I'm not sure now where you stand as you seemed to have changed your mind about trying leading S/HS after being OK leading 6a sports climbs (which I know from talking to those who tried it, that it can work but is usually a scary bad idea). Since this is a beginners thread and arguing isn't good, I politely disagreed with reasons.

All climbing is dangerous .... read the BMC statement... I've seen almost as many nasty accidents indoors as outdoors on trad and bouldering. As for expense I find it pretty good as sports go and can be a lot cheaper with shared kit (UKC or club partners won't charge kit rent!?) my biggest expense over the years is travel costs.

In reply to treforsouthwell:


6a sport has no relation to VS? If you can lead sport 6a then you can probably second most trad tech 5c which could be E4.

"I haven't done any outdoor bouldering as it seems way to dangerous and expensive". First, how would you know - you haven't done it? It is very safe bouldering outdoors and if you buy a second hand mat off UKC it's far cheaper than going to the wall a couple of times a week.

In reply to ad111:


Not in my experience, I have top roped/seconded HVS outdoors and I think that maybe harder than 6a at our indoor centre - but they might well be over graded.

The problem is that british tech grades only count the hardest move (if done correctly) and ignore how hard it is to find the right move (harder than coloured plastic) and also how sustained the climbing is.

Plus I think trad tech wise you have to add two grades to get to French, so F6a would be trad tech 5b which is high end HVS or low end E1 right?


I did say "seems", but of course I maybe wrong - I don't think I would find maybe decent length boulders that could be protected by a single mat??

In reply to Offwidth:


Feel free to disagree, that's what makes an interesting debate )

I wasn't saying that if you can lead 6a indoors you can climb Trad, I was just saying that as a target to a newbie that's a good basic level of technical skills to acquire in order to start outdoors.

I've been pushing my indoor grade this winter, I can now onsite 6b and complete 6b+/6c with some rests/falls, but I'll still be sticking to VS lead outdoors for now...

Not sure what you mean by "decent length", but there are tonnes of great boulder problems out there that can be protected comfortable by a single mat.

I go bouldering outdoors on my own quite a lot, and I consider myself fairly cautious on the whole.

I certainly don't feel that it's more dangerous than doing trad, and if I'm going to be trying something where I expect I might fail a lot before I work the moves out, I'd rather be doing it a short distance over a mat than on trad gear (at least gear that I've placed, anyway ...).

Of course there will be problems that I wouldn't choose to do without another mat and/or a spotter, and different places can be better or worse in terms of suitability for bouldering with a single mat. But I've bumbled around happily on my own in various places.

Alex Honnold or Ned Feehally or whoever doing a super-highball with ten or twenty mats piled underneath them and a circle of spotters -- that's not actually *typical* of outdoor bouldering. *g*

If outdoor bouldering just doesn't appeal to you, of course, then don't do it. I completely agree that there are lots of different ways to approach things. But it's one way to practice reading the rock and improve your technique.

In reply to treforsouthwell:


I climbed my first E3 when I could barely get up F6b. Granted it was terrifying and mostly slab, but it wasn't technically super hard.



According to rockfax grade conversions F6a is equivalent to mid E2. Which sounds about right to me.


I've bouldered all over the place with a single mat. It just means choosing appropriate routes - of which there are many.

In reply to ad111:

Ah okay, depends if you compare bold or safe...

In reply to treforsouthwell:

Good point.

In reply to mc2006:

I think bouldering indoors really changed the game for me. It's obviously great for developing power, but it also improves technique and the psychological side too. It improves technique partly through sheer volume of routes (you do more routses and more variety) but also because each short 'problem' tends to centre around one or two difficult moves you have to figure out. So you get to refine technique through repeated trial and error. For the head game in climbing, I think it dramatically improves confidence when your lead climb as you've encounterd all these small holds and tricky moves when bouldering and you just think- yeah I can hold this and I won't fall. As opposed to discovering that hold when you are high up on a climb and feeling insecure. You just know you can do it as you've done it so many time ps before. it's a great way to get that volume of experience and encounter that level of difficulty at low level. Ultimately, the more confident you are the more comfortable you feel and the more you'll enjoy leading outdoors.

As far as meeting other people, I think that's important. Join a local club. Joining the London mountaineering club was the best thing I ever did.

In reply to ad111:

There's an interesting section in the Rockfax grading, basically they put HS-HVS into a similar group to F5a-6a+ sport and F6b-F7a into the same group as E1-E3 based on what climbers of that ability might be able to achieve based on the whole climb and not just the technical grade alone.

Which does match my personal experience....

"Rockfax Colour Codes
The grades in the tables are assigned a colour code which spans the various different grading systems. The aim of the colour code is to equate to routes which a climber of a certain ability might like to consider. This means that sport routes and boulder problems of a certain colour tend to have harder moves than their equivalent-coloured trad routes since they are, on the whole, less serious undertakings.

For example, a route given the trad grade Hard Severe may only have moves equivalent to a grade 3 or 3+ sport route, but a climber capable of leading a route at HS would probably also be able to attempt a sport route of grade 5 or 5+. Conversely, someone happy leading a sport route of grade 5+ should not assume that they can get up an E1 trad route despite the fact that the technical difficulty level is comparable, they should at least be happy on a red sport route of 6b before transferring their skills to trad climbing.
"

In reply to mc2006:

Choose some low grade v diff climbs and you'll start to learn and gain confidence. Trad is so far removed from indoor climbing. The route takes much, much longer. Route finding and gear placement can take a while so you'll find yourself spending much longer on a route. At v diff grade that only really results in aching feet rather than getting pumped. However route finding and gear placement can only be practised outdoors. Plenty of low grades around diff and v diff. Just watched out for low grade climbs where foot holds have gotten polished.

In reply to boxmonkey_tv:

I must admit around here (Bristol area) a lot of the VD grade routes are dirty and loose, which is rather off-putting for a newbie. It depends on the rock type of course!

In reply to ad111:

Right by that rule as I can just manage 6a at the wall I'll be OK for following Atomic Finger Flake at Mudrock! Then again, perhaps not!!!
I took a friend, who has never climbed outdoors but manages 6b easily at the wall, out to Chudleigh last week. We climbed Wogs, a lovely VD which he found interesting and enjoyed more in retrospect, but declined to follow me up an E3 afterwards. I wonder why?

In reply to Sean Kelly:

Cos it was a monster sandbag (err, acquired taste), Wogs is like glass and he was flash pumped and psyched out of his brain?

Been there, got the T shirt: Inkermann Groove/Black Death. (And 10,000th+ time outdoors. Your mate wasn't doing too badly!)

'...a lovely VD...' Once upon a time (in the west).

Mick

In reply to Sean Kelly:

The point I was trying to make is that the adjective grade has no relation to technical difficulty.

http://www.rockfax.com/publications/grades/

If you follow the link and read the two tables you will see that sport 6b correlates with the technical trad grade of 5c/6a.

The point is that just because there is no gear and it gets E3/4 doesn't make any difference to the person seconding it. Possibly your friend didn't want to second it because it looked scary.

In reply to ad111:


Surely it does. The adjective grade is partly determined by the overall difficulty of the route, and the overall difficulty is partly determined by the hardest move (or sequence).

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
I sometimes wonder if we missed a trick when we compared French grades to UK technical grades. I often find it more useful to compare the French grade with the UK adjectival grade and just forget about the protection element of the system. There are very few climbs that do not have a crux move so in my mind grading the hardest move seems perfectly logical.

To the original OP: Don't get too hung up on this, for the time being just climb more.

Al

In reply to ad111:

The table is wrong: a typical F6b will be no harder than 5c at the crux and if you are going to include the cruxy ones why not the super sustained 5b ones. My most recent indoor F6b (a long 50+ move boulder wall circuit problem) didn't have a move harder than 5a on it.

In reply to ad111:
Well in that case lets look at other classic examples of E4's that any 6a wall climber could manage by your theory....
Fingerlicker at Tremadoc?
Ressurection on the Gromlech?
Goliath at Burbage/
The Axe, Cloggy
All these climbs are bang in the middle of E4 but they would surely test any 6a wall climber. This is because the techniques for climbing outdoors are totally different and require experience and not just the ability to do 6a. For a start, getting gear out can be a whole lot worse than inserting it. If the holds are not chalked there is no 'follow the colours' answer. Even if you climb 8a at the wall this is no training for difficult crack climbing, whether using fingers, hands ot full body. Add the uncertain elements of weather, exposure, scary traverse etc. and it is a whole different ball-game!
You argue that you can omit these factors, but but can't because they are the reason a climb is E4 and not a 6a clip-up!
Oh! And we can all compare various tables of grades, but in the real world it's skill, technique and experience that really count!

In reply to Sean Kelly:






I don't remember saying that any 6a wall climber could climb hard E4s. I think I was suggesting that in terms of technical difficulty a 6b sport climber could second trad with a British tech grade of around 5c/6a. Which might include routes with adjective grades from VS to E4.



I accept there are differences in techniques between climbing indoors and outdoors but I have been being pedantic to try to make a point. Albeit not very well.


You're right the route is E4 to whomever is leading it. But it is whatever the tech grade is to the second.


Grade tables are ways of tabulating skill, technique and experience, so I don't quite understand that point.

In reply to Offwidth:

Your perhaps confusing the hardest technical move and how sustained the route is. The French grades include how sustained the route is, british tech grades don't however the overall Trad grade does. So you can only compare French Sport grades to Trad grades.

I was at Ban-y-gor last week, we climbed a couple of F5c's which were both originally HVS 5a before being retro-bolted. I have also climbed HVS 5b and it's certainly close to a hard F6a outdoors. From personal experience I'd say ignoring the gear factor:

VS 4b/4c => F5a/F5b
HVS 5a/5b => F5c/F6a

But, outdoor climbs are different to indoor, so if you can climb F6a indoors you should be able to second VS outdoors - that's the original point.

In reply to treforsouthwell:

What original point? I thought that was you saying a 6a indoor leader would be fine on a HS/S lead as the climbing was easy they could concentrate on gear. This was errant ninsense.

In reply to mc2006:

Bouldering is your best bet for improving technique and strength in the short term, but don't over do it and remember that you need easy sessions to work stamina as well. Might be worth reading up on movement techniques too, eg outside edging, flagging, etc. lots of articles on ukc and elsewhere.

In reply to Jimbo C:

Thanks for the advice, well I have been hiting the indoor bouldering walls the last two week and already can see an improvement in my climbing.

Im hoping to get out and 2nd some more experienced people too in the near future.

In reply to Offwidth:


No, I said that if you can lead 6a indoors then will make leading HS/S a lot easier, but there's still other aspects to learn and most people start on VD's.

In reply to treforsouthwell:

"I'd suggest get used to leading indoors, and push your grade up to around 6a. Then when you get outdoors to trad climbing you should find S/HS grade routes well within your ability and you can focus on the gear rather than worrying about if you can make the moves."

I'm beginning to despair with you. This is a beginners thread. I've quoted what you actually said and in what way don't you understand this might make someone think that it is OK to go and try to lead outdoors at those grades (when they push their grade to 6a). Even with a wall that grades sensibly that is plain wrong for most people in that position and hence dangerous advice for novices. On the other beginners thread you are making blatantly unfair comments implying safety issues with the use of a petzl gri gri for one of its designed functions: as an abseil device.

In reply to Offwidth:


Are you saying that a HS 4a = F4c would not be within the ability of an indoor F6a climbing?


No, I said I wouldnt use a gri-gri for abseil not that I said there was a safety issue with it.

In reply to treforsouthwell:
I am saying I have directly witnessed several indoor climbers of that 6a grade and above have dangerous experiences trying first leads outdoors on grades as low as Vdiff, usually because they trusted some moron who told them it would be fine. Learning to lead trad has all sorts of issues that may need a very wide safety margin and are best undertaken with much clearer and preferably on-the-spot advice by an experienced climber who knows the skills required and the routes very well. Some people learnt on harder routes with their mum's washing line but that's not what you sensibly advise on a beginners thread.

On the petzl point, keep digging, the thread is there for everyone to read.

In reply to Offwidth:


I said it would help, not that in itself it's enough....

In reply to mc2006:
Glad to support from a professional level, courses are not expensive. Best to start on the correct footing. IM me on FB for a chat.
Peak Athlete Climbing.
Cheers ed

In reply to Lenin:


I'm not sure there's that much of a correlation between social balls and climbing balls.

In reply to mc2006:

Indoor climbing will improve your climbing but doesn't help with placing gear and setting up belays, joining a club would be good for you or talking to some people at the wall and tagging along with them if they'll let you. You really need to have your belays dialled and good gear placing as it doesn't matter how hard you climb if your gear pulls and you die. Get loads of mileage on easy stuff, things that you could near enough walk up and gradually try harder stuff as you become more competent and comfortable with your gear.