UKC

I have a 30 meter length of 8 mm Edelrid cord that I to use for anchoring for top roping. Is this rope suitable for abseiling?

In reply to ElvisMax1:

Its strong enough but being thin you need to make sure that whatever abseil device you use has enough friction and that the rope is protected over any edges.

In reply to GrahamD:

Thanks. What about using a an autoblock device like a gri gri? Will a gri gri work with an 8mm cord?

In reply to ElvisMax1:

No.

You should check this sort of thing yourself!

In reply to ElvisMax1:

Autoblock devices are not abseil devices (if they are used to partially lock they will damage the rope). In any case I would imagine a grigri would be too large to use with 8mm rope.

In reply to ElvisMax1:

Usable with care but I'm not quite sure why you would want to. Handling wise it'll be much like abbing on half rope or a thin static, controllable enough doubled but requiring extra care as a single strand.

You can boost the braking force in a number of ways without resorting to specialist devices, some quick and dirty (eg a turn of dead rope around your thigh), some fiddly and a bit over the top (eg additional carabiner brakes). One of the easiest with a plate/tube type device (most common type) is to use back to back krabs in place of the usual single HMS. Another option is redirect the dead rope through a krab on your leg loop, the acute bend adds friction which can be increased further with a friction hitch if you're really worried/struggling (can be useful on slick single strand full ropes and is easy to improvise mid-descent if you're having problems).
jk

In reply to jkarran:

on a solo traverse of the cuillin ridge, I once went down the vs side of TD gap on 6 or 7mm cord, Italian hitch with an extra krab to deviate for more friction. Whilst using a 120cm sling for a harness, light, fast, but pretty much on the limitations of the gear. I certainly wouldn't want to do it anywhere near a sharp edge, free hanging or a long decent. I had also tested it previously so I knew I could generate enough friction to stop and that the stretch was manageable.

To abseil on 8mm or less routinely without a special reason would seem a risk not worth taking.

In reply to ElvisMax1:

I've got 50m of 7mm that i have had for a year as a tagline/ab line, works fine with reverso and 2crabs.
Climbed mountains and sea cliffs as well as the usual cragging carrying it.

Never used it. Wouldn't like to. I'm cutting lengths off it now for jobs around the house. (Oh wait, we did haul bags up a few climbs with it. Carry your bags rather...)

A 50 or 60m is good enough for everything. If it's not, then the person is simple.

In reply to GrahamD:


Pretty sure this is just not true? Lowering is the same as abseiling, as far as the device is concerned, and Petzl describe use of the grigri for belaying, abseiling and lowering from harness (through redirect) or from fixed anchor point (with braking carabiner)

In reply to zimpara:


Or simply doing something you haven't considered; perhaps a free hanging ab into a deep zawn or descending a smooth granite slab between bolted belays.
jk

In reply to GrahamD:

Thin? That's fatter than my ropes

In reply to andrewmcleod:

It depends how you apply the friction. If you try to use the autolock as friction controlling mechanism it can damage the rope. If you keep the device unlocked and feed the rope through as lowering then it would be like any other device (assuming it has enough friction with 8mm rope) - with the added hindrance of needing to use one hand all the time to keep the lock off. Given the nature of the original question and the possibility of screwing it up badly with a GriGri, I answered on the side of caution.

In reply to Lil_Pete:

Those aren't ropes then, they're sho laces

In reply to GrahamD:

Good greif, you really got 3 dislikes for that?? What's going on.... people getting upset because a thought experiment got dashed? Petzl only rate their grigri devices from 8.9mm.

https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Belay-devices--descenders/GRIGRI-2#.VwPDy...

In reply to ElvisMax1:

Personally I would only use it doubled over through both holes of a belay plate. I think it would work with a fig 8 but I'd backup with a prussik as it will run quick

In reply to ElvisMax1:

I wouldn't use it with a gri-gri, they aren't good for abseiling even on fat ropes....

In reply to treforsouthwell:

Why not?
I rate the grigri as a fantastic bit of kit. Abbing, belaying, self belaying, ascending. Everything

In reply to zimpara:

Have to agree with this. Basically made for it. Its just a lightweight version of the standard industrial abseiling device

In reply to bensilvestre:

Basically a grigri is NOT made for abseiling on 8mm lines.

In reply to GrahamD:

Wasn't disagreeing with that, only with the idea that grigris arent made for abbing

In reply to treforsouthwell:

Given this and a previous incorrect and potentially dangerous statements on a beginners thread about indoor 6a sports climbers being fine to go and start learning outdoors on S/HS leads (both statements made with an air of certainty and with no detailed explanations as to why you are going against standard advice). I would now advise anyone to beware of anything you say on safety: the grigri its a perfectly acceptable belay device with clear instructions for that use. It should not be used on rope below 8.9mm as per the spec I linked above.

In reply to Offwidth:


You seem to like twisting what I said - I clearly said that I would _not_ use a Gri-Gri to abseil. I didn't mention using it for belay, which it's fine for on sports only......

In reply to zimpara:
Let me explain, the issue with gri-gri for abbing is as follows:

1. The handle can snag on something causing the device to unblock.
2. You shouldn't partially release the handle as it might damage the rope, so basically you are releasing it and using it like a normal belay plate - which could make it difficult to control for a beginner.
3. If you want hands free (e.g. to untangle a rope) you should have a backup (e.g. a prussik), but operating a gri-gri and moving a prusski isn't easy.
4. It doesn't support smaller ropes.
5. It doesn't support two ropes, which is the normal way to set a retrievable abseil.
6. It's fairly heavy
7. You shouldn't use a gri-gri to belay trad as it will shock load the system if someone takes a fall, so why are you taking an extra belay plate for your abseil when you could just have used your normal belay???

Do you see the point?

In reply to treforsouthwell:
It's a perfectly acceptable belay device for use in a specified abseiling mode in direct contrast to what you said.

Have you even used the device in the mode indicted in the manufacturers data? Why should anyone listen to you: what is you expertise in device safety testing??

It makes me wonder as most of the reasons you list as to why you wouldn't use it for abseil are either completely spurious or are just an issue of preference (where any sensible poster on a beginners thread would be saying something much more circumspect than 'I wouldnt use a grigri on abseil' which could be construed as it having safety issues in a designed mode of use.

In reply to GrahamD:


Who actually does this though? (fully pulls the handle all the way to the end every time they lower)

In reply to treforsouthwell:


Before we begin, let's just remember the grigri is both a belay device and a descender; abseiling is one of its intended functions.


As opposed to a normal belay device, which is always unblocked? Pretty unlikely and you should be holding onto the dead rope still...


Abseiling is the same as lowering as far as the device is concerned. If it is OK to lower with a device, it is OK to abseil with that device.


Just either a) follow the approved Petzl tie-off procedure or b) tie a knot in the rope, you don't need a prussik because 99.999% of the time it doesn't slip! Using a prussik with a grigri would get about a 6.9/10 on my insanity meter...


A MicroJul or a Bugette doesn't support larger ropes. Try using a standard belay plate on fat muddy 12mm caving ropes and you won't get anywhere either. Using the wrong rope with a device is not a fault of the device.


Normal, but not the only way; you can do a retrievable abseil on a single line with a knot or carabiner. This is standard practice in caving since all caving descenders are single-rope.


And? How is this a problem for abseiling, where you are going down? :P


Firstly while true it probably isn't really that important 99% of the time. Secondly that's not a reason not to use it for abseiling; we normally don't use grigris for trad because you can't belay a pair of half ropes with it but the OP was talking about abseiling on accessory cord. If you've brought a static rope/cord for abseiling bringing a device just for abseiling is not that mad...


No?

In reply to andrewmcleod:

I never said you can't use it, I said I wouldn't use it. I just don't see the point of another bit of gear when a normal belay plate and a prussik does a good job - why would you take a gri-gri when you don't have to carry the extra gear for little or no benefit?

Now I'm only talking about climbing and not caving for which I have no experience.

In reply to Offwidth:


I clearly said I wouldn't, not that it's dangerous - although the original poster was asking about small ropes which would be dangerous with a gri-gri but would work fine with a normal belay plate

In reply to treforsouthwell:

This is a beginners thread. Language is important "I wouldn't use it" normally will get interpreted as its bad to use. How about apologising to petzl on those 'rubbing salt into the wound' points you made which Andrew rightly challenged (some of which are plain outside their design spec).

In reply to Offwidth:


Okay, I would agree I should have explained why and made that one clearer.

Much as I would love to think so, I strongly doubt my comments have any impact on Petzl sales *lol*

I'm not saying Petzl have a problem with their product, just that their product is more suitable for Sports climbers than Trad climbers. Again it's personal preference....

In reply to andrewmcleod:


True, I'd normally use a normal device with a Prusik.


Yes agreed, it's more hassle but okay.


True, but I don't think we are talking about caving here?


But I'd be worried about that Krab getting stuck on a ledge when you pull the rope down.


What goes down must come up right?


It is if you have to climb with the extra weight.

In reply to treforsouthwell:

Your original statement was:


This statement is simply false.

Grigris are fantastic abseil devices within their rated limitations. Your personal preferences about whether to use it not when doing trad have no bearing on your original statement, which was 'they aren't good for abseiling'. There are many more reasons to be abseiling than just retrievable abseils for trad climbing.

If you post stuff that is either outright wrong or irrelevant, you may get shot down. I should know... :P

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Fair point, I was assuming a normal Trad climbing scenario - perhaps unfairly.

In reply to treforsouthwell:




Point 2: Is this true? Are you really supposed only to use a Gri Gri in an "on and off" way? Is that what Petzl say? The cam inside is smooth, so I can't see why using it to add extra friction would damage a rope. The Gri Gri's variable friction is a major plus; FWIW everyone I know makes use of it.

Point 7: Hasn't this idea been largely discredited? Arresting a fall with a Gri Gri won't shock-load the system because you have stretch in the climbing rope, plus the inevitable bits of slack here and there - and (if the belayer is doing their job properly) the rope shouldn't slide appreciably through an ATC type device in a fall, either - so there's little difference.

In reply to bpmclimb:




Most people feather the cam all the time, no problem. That is unless you are lowering/abseiling a long way, at speed. In which case because the heat can't get out of the inside you risk gazing the rope. This is more of a problem in hotter countries. However, if you do rap at speed, and don't heat the cam up you will be heating your hand up!

Re point 7. There are some tests that indicate that a grigri does load the system more. But in no way can this be called shock loading. More like a slightly larger fall factor. Remember most aid walls are climbed using a grigri, and the gear on them is more marginal than on normal routes.

In reply to ElvisMax1:

I don't mean this to sound patronising, but if you have to ask the answer is most likely no.

Most people will have done the progression of fat beginner ropes, to skinnier and skinnier, and they can make a judgement call in these decisions using their years of experience. This experience will also help them judge the various environmental factors when setting up the abseil.

You're asking people on an internet forum whether it's safe to take more risk. The question is contradictory, and the answers will always be mixed, but ask yourself this - why am I taking this risk? Ueli Steck might take this risk because he's going so light he can't risk a bivi. That's his call. But do you need to take this risk?

In reply to David Coley:

Check out Petzl's own research

https://www.petzl.com/US/EN/Sport/Influence-of-the-belay-device?ActivityNam...

In a factor 0.7 fall the anchor is loaded with 3 Kn on a reverso (normal belay plate) and 5 Kn with a gri-gri. That's likely to be difference between gear holding and gear pulling.

In reply to treforsouthwell:




Hi, the video and the plots show the situation very nicely, thanks.

1. the increase becomes smaller the lower the fall factor. For many falls it will be rather small. And about the same as swapping from half ropes to a single - and people in the USA aren't giving up their singles because of this.

2. The video shows very clearly what happens to the belayer in these falls - they either hit the first piece, or pile into the rock face on the simulated multi pitch falls. They really do fly. The question is whether all belayers would even keep hold of the rope in an unexpected fall of this type. It would be so easy to smash your fingers into a part of the anchors or a carabiner or a spike, especially if you were not focused after 9 hours of belaying - and possibly sorting out the rope at the same time.

3. If we think where the reduction of force is coming from using a reverso, it is a little worrying. The rope must be slipping through the device. This either means it is running through the hand, or the hand is travelling towards the device. Both could lead to lack of control if the hand wasn't in the right location or the belayer lacked the experience to hold unexpected falls.

I'm not suggesting we start using grigris on all trad, but I don't think it is a bad thing to do.

PS. The force needed to make gear fail is also interesting. Does anyone have any data on this? I've always suspected that in some sense that if normal gear is going to fail, it will fail at rather low forces, or hold well. I'm sure this isn't always true (e.g. copper heads, nests of RPs). Kind of a "fails for a reason" thing. E.g. we don't OFTEN see medium wires with much of the alloy removed from being pulled from a crack, or massive marks in the rock from cams pulling (although both have been seen). So data on pull testing real placements, by typical climbers, or real rock would be really interesting.

In reply to David Coley:


I think you are correct on this, gear is usually up to the job or not, little middle ground.

All I would add is that, often, failing gear has a time delay element, holding sometimes for quite a few seconds before ripping out.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Seems to be a contentious issue this, granted Petzl rate it for descending and used correctly under the right conditions and circumstances I'm sure it's perfectly fine. Personally, I'd never use one for this purpose unless there was no option. Seems to me there's less control and is overly complicated compared to an ATC with a prusik back-up.
Not saying anyone is wrong, just personal preference

I'll just leave this video here; originally seen on Rock and Ice website - quickly removed and taken down from source (was assumed at the time, by request of Petzl as was titled as a device failure)
youtube.com/watch?v=4A8-jsLAZV4&

In reply to Justin Reid:
If you want to get really fussy about descenders, then a standard ATC-type belay device is often not considered up to the job by cavers or (I think) canyoneers. If you have a long free-hang descent then they a) can be rather fast on single-rope descents, b) can equivalently be quite slow on fat ropes, and c) contain far too little metal and so get rather hot (the major issue). I would reasonably happily abseil a 100m free-hang shaft on a grigri; I do abseil similar distances on my MegaJul on double ropes but they are rarely totally free-hanging and I have to go slow because the thing gets pretty damn hot!

For me it's definitely the grigri, not the ATC, that is the superior single-rope descent device provided a) appropriate rope diameters are used, b) we aren't dragging the grigri through a cave (fancy devices don't work very well in mud), and c) the user is competent (in the video you show I can only assume that when the anchor appears to partly fail, the abseiler panic-pulls the handle and doesn't hold the dead rope...).

For serious descents people will either use a Fig 8 (much better heat dissipation than an ATC-type device), a rack or a dedicated descender like a Petzl Stop/Simple (the Stop is actually rubbish but better than everything else once you have dragged it through mud). If you have all the money, don't care about the weight, want all the features and all the safety and aren't going to get it muddy, buy a Petzl I'd :P

Or we could just relax and accept that there is nothing really wrong with descending on an ATC-type device, a GriGri, a rack or a Fig 8 as long as we understand their advantages and limitations...

In reply to andrewmcleod:

I vote for relax and use whatever you're comfortable and feel safe with.
I agree, figure 8 gives much better heat dissipation but care needs to be taken as they run a lot more freely than ATC, megajul or grigri.
Not being a caver I'll bow to your knowledge there, I've never needed to descend anything longer than 50-60 meters.

Megajul is a good option though to keep the weight of your rack down - had forgotten about those