UKC

Are there any UK routes you would consider to be a world-class, five-star climb: a route a foreign climber would make a specific trip to the UK just to tick?

In the same way a UK climber would dream about and travel all the way to Norway for Vestpilaren, or Yosemite for The Nose...

In reply to A Random Climber:

This!

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=70358

In reply to A Random Climber:

At what grade?

I don't know about travel specifically to tick at the lower grades, but I'd put these forward as pretty awesome...

A Dream of White Horses (HVS 4c)

Dalriada (E7 6b)

Gaia (E8 6c)

East Face Route (Original Route) (E1 5b) (Old Man of Hoy)

Bat Route (8c)

Rainshadow (9a)


Obviously there are thousands of brilliant routes in the UK. This is a very unspecific question!

In reply to A Random Climber:

Uberwads from various places have visited the UK in recent years, so judging by some of those visits, our world class routes are:

Hubble
Rainshadow
Overshadow
Rhapsody
Master's Edge
Gaia
Partheon Shot

I think much of the attraction is the history of the climbing rather than the actual quality of the routes (although the grit ones are pretty good lines)

In reply to MischaHY:


If anyone travelled to the UK to specifically climb this "world class route" they would quite understandably go home thinking that UK climbing is a complete bag of shite! Probably the most overrated route I've ever done.

In reply to Jimbo C:


I think people have travelled to do those mostly because they are high profile prestigious big ticks rather than actual world class routes.

In reply to Robert Durran:

But one of the best final stances......


Routes like Point 5, Orion Face Direct and numerous others bring scores of visiting foreign climbers every year.

In reply to A Random Climber:


No (If you replace "would" with "should"). I doubt any individual UK route is truly world class.

People should travel to the UK for the variety and experience of climbing excellent routes in different areas.

In reply to A Random Climber:

Flying Buttress (HVD 4a)

In reply to MischaHY:

I knew Robert would be along any minute to slag off the East Face Route on the Old Man of Hoy. Personally I loved every second of it and it is in my top 5 climbing experiences. A route that is much more about the experience than it is about an individual of series of moves.

In reply to A Random Climber:

The Night Watch (VS 4b)

In reply to A Random Climber:

There's plenty of winter routes that are world class - more so than rock routes I'd think. This is largely due to the unique way that routes form in Scotland, due to a combination of weather, being next to a large ocean and the freeze thaw and sticky snow provided by the gulf stream.

In reply to The New NickB:

It was certainly an experience (one of my 5 most disappointing ones) but there are many equally memorable UK experiences available which also give good quality climbing.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Yes agreed but I think that's what Jimbo meant when he said the attraction is more the history of the route rather than quality. It's the history that makes them prestigious, rather than the grade.

The UK is pretty poor when it comes to rock quality compared to other parts of Europe. We do have some high quality routes but there are far, far more in places like France, Spain, Italy etc. that the only reason to choose the UK would be the history of a particular route. Factor in the unpredictable weather and there's even more reason to choose another country.

I think most climbers go abroad for a climbing area, rather than a single route (though admittedly the climbing in France and Spain still p*sses on anything we have here). It's different if the route is something like the Nose of course, but then there aren't any 36 pitch routes here either, or anything like.

In reply to nniff:


I wouldn't put it like that. People come to experience the Scottish Winter scene, or Peak Grit, or Scottish Sea Cliffs - and so climb some of the classics while they're here.

In reply to stp:


Only for sport.

In reply to A Random Climber:

Foreign climbers don't visit the UK for single stand out routes in the same way as we go to Yosemite or Squamish or the alps. We just don't have that kind of route.

What they visit for is variety and tradition / history. By those measures UK climbing ranks with the best.

In reply to A Random Climber:

Speaking as someone who has lived abroad, talked to other climbers about what they think of British climbing, and subsequently had foreign friends visit the UK, I'd agree with many others in this thread on the idea that there are very few world-class routes here - or at least routes on international climbers' radars.
What we do have that is seen as unique, however - and this will be upsetting for many, but I'm simply commenting on what I have experienced, and should note that I'm speaking in terms of rock, rather than winter - is grit. Consider Hard Grit, the insanity of ethics from an international perspective (a UK-wide obsession but best exemplified by the esteem and over-protectiveness accorded to grit), the self-perpetuated myth that grit routes are intrinsically and ubiquitously bold and dangerous: This, in my experience, is what climbers in other countries are familiar with, if they're familiar with UK climbing at all, and is what the vast majority of foreign climbers that I've spoken to have come all the way to the UK to experience.

In reply to Robert Durran:


For rock climbing, regardless. There's is just so much quality rock over there.

But I don't think anyone would travel here to do one route that didn't at least take them several days. And to me that implies sport (or headpointing) rather than trad.

In reply to DBoothroyd:

You see a lot of visiting foreign climbers in Cornwall, and rightly so the Cornish granite is very high quality climbing on good rock in a quality setting.

In reply to A Random Climber:

The Cioch on Skye
Napes Needle
The Indian Face (not done this but ohhhh what a route)
Dream of White Horses

Ok not the hardest routes around but for atmosphere, history and pretty great climbing they have to be world class well they are in my book

In reply to DBoothroyd:

Grit on only on foreigners' radar because it has been massively (over)hyped - nothing wrong with grit but I don't think it's anything special in world terms.

What the UK has which is unique and which does live up to the hype (or would if it were hyped) is world class sea cliff climbing.

In reply to stp:


So are you trying to tell me that Spanish trad pisses all over UK trad?

In reply to Robert Durran:

I would have thought that Dinas Cromlech, though very small on a world scale, would be regarded anywhere as an unusually interesting piece of rock (geologically), providing unusually good climbing of its type.

In reply to A Random Climber:

It's a sad foreign climber that doesn't dream about climbing Stanage classics on a perfect spring evening...

As was said by one Californian notable (about Almscliff as it happens, but we'll let that pass) 'Your climbs here are little inlaid jewels...'

In reply to Robert Durran:
I agree for rock the sea cliff climbing is the main event in the UK

Winter climbing especially on Ben Nevis sees a lot of foreign visitors also and rightly so as it can be very high quality climbing IMO.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

For me, I think British climbing compares very favourably to international classics.


Our sea cliffs are exceedingly unique and I think that any foreign climber who came over and got a good haul of classic routes at their grade would definitely come back singing our island's praises! Pembroke, Gogarth, the South West, Scotland - all IMO have routes that are equal to if not better than many world classics I have done.

Inland, the variety of rock types within a days' drive is pretty unbeatable! Again, we have some great routes in the mountains - Right Wall and The Axe stand out as mega classics to me. Bet there are some absolutely amazing things in Scotland and the Lakes also but not done much up there.

Our Gritstone high balls are just as good and usually more historic than those in say Bishop (though maybe that is coming from someone who doesn't know much about US climbing). I'm still unconvinced by Grit trad - a lot of faff for not much rock climbed + headpointing is a bit whack if you ask me!

Sport climbing wise I think we can compete but you probably have to be climbing in the upper end of the 7th grade minimum for this to apply.

I have no experience of this but Scottish Winter seems to always draw foreigners over so it must be good (maybe its just unique?) Isn't Point 5 supposed to be the most famous ice climb in the world?

When the weather is good here there is no-where I'd rather be climbing!!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Agreed. Ive met plenty of foreigners who've visited for pembroke, some even pabbay and mingulay. Those who ask i dirdct to the sea, perhaps via the peak just to what the grits sbout, but no more

In reply to Robert Durran:

Would you say that no individual UK route is even world class it its, er, class, or just compared to bigger and more imposing routes abroad? As in, it'd be a bit daft to compare Almscliffe to El Cap, but how would it stack up compared to similar sized outcrops?

Edit: this question open to anyone else who's been saying roughly the same thing...

In reply to A Random Climber: I'm going to agree with some and disagree with some , and I don't live in the UK

Grit - yes, it's only 30 feet tall, but the lines and moves are distinct and fantastic. It has renowned ethics and a strong sense of history. It has top quality hard routes and some very, very good hard routes, just for purity of line. It's not totally unique in the world, but it's close to it , and I'd say world class.
Seacliffs - some more than others. I'd say some of the routes at Pembroke are world class single pitches
Scottish Winter - a world class experience, end of argument. Routes might be a bit short, but so what.

Sadly for Gordon I'd say the Cromlech as a piece of rock is not exceptional at all. The wall at Dirdal is similar, but twice the lengh and twice the height and not unusual. It has history, and good routes, but isn't unique in it's geology or geoemtry-

To STP - you vaunt the quality of rock in France and Spain. I'm not going to argue against that but lets be honest, a lot of the routes are rather samey. What's the best sport route in France, in terms of line?

In reply to A Random Climber:

Darkinbad? Dream/Liberator? Il Duce? Doorpost?

In reply to martinturnchapel:

The first 3 are very much on my to-do list!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Haven't done any Spanish trad so I've no idea. But unless you've been there and traveled about quite a bit then you've probably no idea of simply how much quality rock there is in these countries. It's staggering. Much of it is still unclimbed. Even old and popular destinations like Siurana have whole sectors yet to be developed. Most of what we climb on here they wouldn't even bother with. Britain, I'm sorry to say, is a poor climbing destination, compared to much of the rest of Europe.

In reply to A Random Climber:

I agree mostly with what Duncan said, though I'm not so sure about the sport (admittedly I haven't climbed the hard stuff but c'mon, it's not the Verdon is it...)

Regarding grit, the real reason it holds the position it does is not for the moves or the lines or any of that stuff - in those it is good but not particularly special. Its popularity and fame boils down to so much of it being so convenient. The fact that it is so well-developed and consequently has so many hard and famous routes is a consequence of most of it being a short walk from a short drive from about 20 million people. And there's nothing wrong with that - I love the convenience.

In reply to wbo:


I've no idea. I've climbed in France on many occasions yet I've still only visited a small fraction of the areas there.

I suppose if you want a famous one then Biographie will no doubt take some beating.

In reply to stp:


Have you been to the Outer Hebrides?

In reply to A Random Climber:


I suppose another way to think about it is: has a foreign climber ever made a trip here for a single route?

In reply to stp:

So where's these top notch euro trad venues then? They may have lots of rock but to suggest they have a similar variety of quality established trad climbing in a small area as the UK is a bit silly.

In reply to stp:


Yes, Rhapsody I believe. But that does not necessarily mean it is a world class route; more likely one of those high profile hard ticks.

In reply to Andy Moles:


I think stp is coming at this entirely from a blinkered sport climbing perspective. The UK clearly cannot compete with Spain for sport, but Spain clearly cannot compete with the UK for trad.

In reply to ebdon:


Depends on the grades you're after...

Lofoten, Kvaloya and Jössinfjord are just a few of the world class trad locales... in Norway.

Yurp has many of them, Elbesandstain springs to mind, as does Annot and Cadarese...

But there are actually numerous others, that aren't overhyped.

In reply to Andy Moles:

You are probably right that our sport climbing can't compare to the Verdon but I'd argue you'd be comparing two different things there?

In all honesty I don't think I've climbed many UK sport routes that I would say bettered foreign ones, but with routes like Supercool at Gordale, Infinite Gravity at Swanage, Statement of Youth at LPT, etc. I don't think we do badly.

I forgot to mention Ireland also - having only been to Fair Head I can't fully comment but I thought Fair Head was pretty good and the Burren looks fantastic also.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Done much trad in spain ?

Ever been in Picos, what about Cavallers or Pedroforca... or Montserrat... or Pedrosa... or....

In reply to A Random Climber:

Surprised no one has mentioned TPS

In reply to A Random Climber:
The best rock routes I have done in the UK are in Mingulay and Pembroke. The three that stick out are:
Voyage of Faith
Star Wars
Pleasuredome

In terms of winter climbing the three that stick out are:
Poachers falls
Orion face direct
Gemini

In my opinion these routes would be super Classic in any country. Of course there are many more I could quote and many more I could do in the future. That is the great thing about UK climbing.

In reply to A Random Climber:

I really like British climbing but I think it's strength is in its compact variety rather than a single route. Would anyone get on a plane just for dream of white horses? No probably not. But I can't think of any where you could start a weekend on world class sea cliffs doing trad and DWS (Pembrokeshire) then hit steep limestone sport (mallham Cove) before finishing up on a bouldering and highball venue as good as stanage.

In reply to A Random Climber:

I'm going to go out on a precarious limb here and say that there is an important difference between 'world class' and 'unique and interesting'. The UK climbing scene (in my opinion) has an abundance of locations that are very different from what is available elsewhere.

Slate is a great example of this. It's not brilliant rock quality, it's not clean splitters like Indian Creek, it's not as high as El Cap.

It does, however, comprise some of the most absorbing and technically demanding climbing I've ever personally experienced and is, I think, somewhat unique.

The grit is another classic example. Bolted, it'd be pretty rubbish. Combined with a bold style and strong ethical stance, it provides brilliantly strenuous and bold routes that unquestionably draw attention from the rest of the world.

As a wise man once said, 'It's not what you've got, it's how you use it.'

I think we make excellent use of what we have.

In reply to stp:


?!

Gneiss, Torridonian Sandstone, Gabbro, Granite, Rhyolite, Andesite, all superb...

In reply to Robert Durran:



Agreed, the climbing is mediocre, but it's the best summit in the UK, and with the events encountered just getting to it (only from Dunfermline mind) made for one of the more memorable entries in my (so far) 51 year climbing diary.
I'll maybe write it up one day. It was 2 or 3 days that felt like 7 thanks to a missed ferry, a missed bus, a lift in a pick up truck with pigs, a lift with a ferry boat navigation officer who drove like a maniac and needed us to fix his puncture in the dark mid island, plying him with beer (at his insistence) till closing time at 10, a night in a fisherman's hostel redolent of The Marie Celeste (advantage: no-one in residence = no-one to pay!), a chance meeting on Hoy with characters we knew, snatching the route (ahead of them) on the afternoon we arrived, a whisky and beer punctuated night in the bothy, and utilising the day saved to make an impromptu business visit to a very surprised Orkney Islands Council trading standards officer made it unique.
Oh! Looks like I have just written it up. Sorry.
I'd recommend it to anyone who, like me, takes to heart the oft heard mantra of a some time climbing partner of mine - "there's more to climbing than climbing".

In reply to Martin Bennett:

I expect the pigs still talk of little else!

In reply to A Random Climber:

A lot of the attention given to UK trad by well known foreign climbers is driven by popular films (Hard Grit and E11 mentioned above). Perhaps a big film about sea cliff climbing would do wonders for the international reputation of climbing in the UK?

In reply to stp:

>> What's the best sport route in France, in terms of line?


L'Ange en Decomposition?

In reply to A Random Climber: Many routes on Fairhead could be considered world class trad climbing. Indeed I have come across a greater % of overseas climbers there than elsewhere in the UK. I think it rather sad that most parochial UK climbers have yet to visit one of if not the best crag in the UK!!

In reply to A Random Climber:

Henry Barber always said that gritstone was his favourite of all !

In reply to Robert Durran:


From the blog of Sonnie Trotter, who many justifiably consider a world class climber:

"Rhapsody is a very hot topic during the last few years and I’m sure will continue to be so because it is a bench mark climb and a world class route."

Original: http://sonnietrotter.com/2008/12/20/oh-the-irony/

Maybe that still doesn't necessarily make it a world class route - who knows?!

In reply to A Random Climber:

"So where's these top notch euro trad venues then?"

Alpes?

Maritime Alps?

In reply to A Random Climber:



UK climbing is quaint, varied and eccentric. But as much as I love it, as much as it is part of my dna, and despite the magical memories I have of our glorious routes here, in all hand on heart honesty, it can't compete when it comes to world class routes, if a logical measurement of what constitutes world class, is used.

In reply to Fraser:



Rhapsody is a wandering eliminate. It's only famous 'cause it's hard.

In reply to DaveHK:


I thought it was a 15' variation finish to Requiem?

In reply to DaveHK:

I'd agree about the first part. Not so sure about the second though - there are plenty of hard routes, it's probably rather good too. I'm just pointing out the opinion of pretty decent climber ... who has actually climbed the route, unlike either of us, or Big Bob!

In reply to planetmarshall:

No, that's not the case. Whilst hosting on BMC International meets I have spoken to many climbers from around the world, and I can assure you people travel to Scotland from South Africa, Slovenia, Spain and Hungary to climb Point Five. They, not us, describe it as the most famous gully in the world. Enjoy your climbing..........Jeff

In reply to A Random Climber:

Anyone fancy taking a stab at a top 5/10 UK sea cliff routes? I Dream of White horses....

In reply to boxmonkey_tv:


I can tell you a few I've done that would be worth a trip from overseas for:

- Voyage of Faith, Dun Mingulay
- Geriatrics, Sheigra
- The Moon, Gogarth
- Star Wars, Pembroke
- Mastodon, West Penwith

In reply to A Random Climber:

What about some of Franco's E11/12s on The North Yorks Moors?

In reply to A Random Climber:


I think the short answer to this question is 'no'. But there are plenty of places they could go and have a really excellent trip.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Hmmm... don't suppose someone like Dani Arnold might be interested in something like Anubis?

In reply to Robert Durran:


No. You introduced the artificial trad/sport divide, not me. I've repeatedly said that the climbing, which has nothing to do with the protection used, is far, far superior in other parts of Europe.

It seems that some people want to exaggerate how good Britain's climbing really is. It might be ignorance, misplaced patriotism or some kind of denial perhaps. Sure the climbing is better here than some places, like Holland or Belgium for example. But it doesn't compare to places like Spain or France. I don't understand why anyone would argue against that. They're bigger countries with more mountains and a hell of lot more rock.

In reply to A Random Climber:


At its grade and style: The Dubh Ridge.

In reply to A Random Climber:

Not world class.

But didn't a photo of Mark Edwards on Isis at Pendower Cove bring Stefan Glowacz to the UK for the first time to repeat it and travel around years ago? It looks amazing in Bill Birkett's SW climbs book. And always good to see Boreal Ninjas in action.

In reply to Coel Hellier:


Actually, that's a brilliant suggestion. 3000 feet of perfect gabbro in a beautiful isolated setting (though I guess there's loads of similar in Norway).

In reply to petestack:

OK, but that's pretty niche.

In reply to stp:

That makes no sense. If you're making a value judgement on quality, you can't dissociate 'the climbing' from the experience of the climbing, and the nature of that experience is affected massively by the way a route is protected. As well as the setting, the quality of the rock, the level of commitment required, etc etc.

In reply to stp:


Yes, although a lot of it is limestone, and of all the different types of rock I've climbed on Limestone is my least favourite. And yes I know there are granite and sandstone areas in both countries, but I guess the significant majority of Spanish and French climbing (particularly if you don't include mountaineering style routes) is on limestone. Norway has amazing climbing that makes UK routes seem a bit weeny, but if you don't like granite as a medium, again your not going to find too much else. British climbing can be a bit "meh" in comparison to other countries but this is really impressive variety of rock types. I don't think many other countries have that variety particularly within a quite small area.

The other thing that UK climbing has in spades that attracts foreigners is info - particularly guidebooks. Norwegian winter climbing IS more impressive than Scotland, but where does a visitor even start? Well, Rjuken would seem to be the answer to that, as it is the easiest place to get info about.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Yup, really good thinking. Or the Skye Ridge? Hard to imagine anyone being disappointed with that.

In reply to Coel Hellier:
Really? I mean the gabbro is novel I suppose, but ridges like that must be ten a penny across the Alps (and Norway as mentioned). In fact one of the reason the Cuillin is so special is because it is our only 'alpine like mountain region' isn't it?

I'm saying this even though the route and a mountain range that holds a special place in my heart as well, stemming from youthful adventure with my old man.

In reply to Removed User:

Not starting from sea level though. Part of the problem with this thread is failure to consider UK routes as part of a whole package (history, location, rock quality etc) and just focussing on their small stature.

In reply to Removed User:


Not really, most alpine ridges of that grade would not be good climbing, they'd be mostly rubble or very broken climbing. Routes that were good-quality rock and continuous climbing would usually be much harder, e.g. the Walker Spur. They'd also tend to be mountaineering (i.e. take an ice axe) as opposed to a rock climb.

In reply to boxmonkey_tv:

Lost Horizon (VS 5a)

In reply to stp:


You're distilling a hell of a lot of factors into a very reductive statement. Of course we don't have nearly as much as Spain or France in terms of pure volume of rock, but we do have a variety of climbing venues that are very different to anything you find in those places - or anywhere, probably. Is Pichenibule better than Prophecy of Drowning? Pretty meaningless comparison, it depends on you and your situation, but they're obviously very different and both great.

In reply to stp:


http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=70357

In reply to TobyA:


The thing with climbing is that some rock types throw in lots of moves and interest in a tiny space, whereas others don't. Sandstone and grit might only be small but the climbing is really complex, often more so than granite, on which one can cover a lot of ground with fairly similar movements. Font isn't "meh" because there's a lot of it, but also because the climbing is really engaging. Grit's the same, so is slate, and our sea cliffs have similar features on a larger scale: difficult to access sometimes, tricky route-finding, intensive climbing.

As for Euro lime being of endless quality, in my experience the premier cliffs are simply the best in the world. But the second-tier crags are simply okay.

In reply to TobyA:


I totally agree. But that's irrelevant when considering whether we have world class routes good enough to entice foreign climbers to visit here for.

In reply to stp:

Didn't one of the top French climbers (Menestral?) come all the way to the UK specifically to do Gaia, and then came to grief on it, breaking an ankle?

In reply to Fraser:




I wonder whether he more means world class difficulty or world class quality.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

This one? Jean-minh trinh-thieu

In reply to Martin Bennett:


I went to Orkney fort he first time last summer. Don't get me wrong - it was a fantastic trip and the Old Man is an essential tick and, yes, a unique summit. But the day after we climbed Roring Forties. The whole package was significantly more adventurous and committing and the actual climbing far, far better quality. Move for move the climbing at Yesnaby was much better again.

In reply to A Random Climber:

Cuillin ridge - haven't done it yet, but can well imagine this to be worth a trip for anyone.
Napes Needle - not a 5 star climb, but steeped in history and in an amazing location.
But in general a visiting climber may be better off visiting another European climbing destination, one where the weather is somewhat more settled. Climbing may actually take place!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Some of the trad in Spain is excellent. There's much more of it than in the UK, longer routes, amazing settings be it sea cliffs, or big mountain routes. Tens of thousands of new routes still to be discovered, new crags, new areas. Whilst the UK provides very unique climbing experiences and is a beautiful place to climb, for sheer amount of rock, easy access climbing, and quality mountain routes the UK doesn't get anywhere near Spain for a trad or sport climber.
And yes, i've climbed a lot of trad in Spain and look forward to many more adventurous days out there.

In reply to A Mountain Journey:

Ok. I'll take your word for it; I stand corrected.

.........but I bet stp wasn't thinking about the trad at all!

In reply to A Random Climber:

I think some is world class and some massively overrated. But by comparable scales - eg cragging. It seems silly to compare the cromlech with el capitan or Crib Goch with a 1000m ridge in the alps.

For example, the cromlech, the slate, tremadog and the easy ogwen mountain routes are superb

Grit also has some world class lines, examples being gaia and masters edge

Pembroke is undoubtedly worth travelling for
As is some parts of cornwall, notably carn barra

Most of the routes at these places are comparable in quality to climbs I've done in joshua tree, red rocks, TRAD routes in Spain, Greece etc.

I think the Sport is brilliant but not as good as Spain / France, but where is comparable to these places???

Is the troll wall not world class cus it ain't El capitan? Is bishop not world class cus it ain't font? Of course not.

In reply to TobyA:


+1 (though I might draw the line at conglomerate)

In reply to A Random Climber:

You could just play top trumps. One person suggests a world class climb and others try to top it?

Old man of hoy vs totem pole?

Sron Na ciche vs dent de geant?

Tower ridge vs kuffner arete?

Point five gully vs super couloir?

Cassin vs ....

Comici vs ....

In reply to TobyA:

Agreed. Altough over its expanse it holds some good routes, I find limestone, of all the rock ive climbed on, frankly quite boring, and generally unmenorable compared to other stone. Therefore the vast majority of high quality euro rock is in my eyes invalidated when it comes to the best routes. Even the best routes ive done at the verdon come nowhere near my favourites at gogarth or the islands.

In reply to A Random Climber:

After all, everyone know the best three crags in the world are main cliff, north face of the jorasses, and el cap

In reply to A Random Climber:

I've met climbers from Japan, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Germany, Spain and the US who had travelled to climb on:

- The Grit (A marketing campaign worthy of R*d B*ll clearly works)
- Scottish mixed crags
- Cloggy
- SW Sea-cliffs (including the Deep Water Soloing would you believe)

And generally to experience an unusual and historic climbing culture, which seems about right to me.
Rarely for individual routes, though one was here to climb the Old Man of Hoy. Disappointingly for Robert Durran, he thought it was great. He was a connoisseur of Utah sandstone towers, so it was a bit of a busman's holiday.

If I went to Czech sandstone it would be for very similar reasons.

In reply to A Random Climber:

Defo not world class (well potentially peak/Yorkshire bouldering is? Not my bag really) but I've got loads of it 15-30mins from my house. Trad, sport or bouldering, I'm surrounded by climbers to climb with and 3 decent walls for when it's pissing down. And the summers aren't hot so you can climb all year round.

So I'd say is a world class place to live as a climber just individually the routes are generally a bit meeeeh (apart from fairhead and Pembroke of course).

In reply to snoop6060:


FTFY

In reply to Robert Durran:

You might be right...

Perhaps he was purely thinking about the quality of climbing and lines...

not climbing experience. Which British trad might mark highly (albeit, I'm still going to claim Elbesandstein being more of an exprience... and longer history to boost).

In reply to stp:


I think the reason is that we look back on our climbing experiences and many of those that really stick out in our minds are on UK routes, probably mainly because of the lack of bolts, the unique settings, and character of the crags including rock type. I don't really think you believe that the type of protection used "has nothing to do with it", considering how dramatically it alters the climbing experience.

France and Spain obviously have loads more bigger bits of rock. But our experiences of climbing them are quite often fairly bland: we're on holiday in a hire car, driving to a convenient crag and clipping bolts on limestone, often in great scenery but sometimes on the edge of an ugly holiday resort. Meh. On the other hand, if you've climbed on Dun Mingulay, it's a very intense, rich experience, and there's a lot more that contributes to that other than the narrow strip of rock we've climbed that's been given a name.

To get philosophical about it, climbing is an experience that happens in the concious world of the climber. The quality of a route is a measure of the quality of experience that the route provokes in the mind of the climber, not some objective character of the rock. We think the trad climbing in the UK is amazing because we look back at the experiences we've had on those routes, and they're amazing. It isn't "ignorance, misplaced patriotism or some kind of denial", it's a reflection of our experience here and abroad.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Lots of likes! (says the man packing for Kalymnos!!)

In reply to Goucho:

What is a logical definition of world class? No one seems to have done that exercise.

In reply to A Random Climber:

To assess world class quality, you have to look at what the perfect example of a genre would be:

Single pitch grit.
Single pitch mountain onsight.
Short winter route.
One day alpine ridge.
Limestone single pitch sport climb.
Boulder problem.
Highball Sandstone.

Obviously for some of those the UK is rubbish and we do least well when we try and 'compete' with foreign styles. I rate LPT and Raventor for sport, but it's always going to look rubbish in comparison with France, Spain, Italy or even Austria.

Where the UK is truly world class is in highballing and traditional (especially bold traditional) routes. Things like Gaia, The Tormented Sole, The Quarryman, Dynamics of Change and The Nightwatch are unbeatable in their genre.

You have to compare like with like. Comparing Parthian Shot to the Frendo Spur is a nonsense.

In reply to Lusk:


Surely they are 'Galaxy class' rather than just 'world class'...

Andy F

In reply to HeMa:


To repeat what I said to stp above, you can't dissociate the two. Climbing has no intrinsic value - it only exists through the experience of the climber. Take away the climber and you just have bits of rock.

You might value the experience of climbing an immaculate line on perfect rock over the experience of climbing something remote and committing - either way, you're still looking through the lens of experience.

In reply to Andy Moles:


At least I can. What is the most important is the "line", next how it climbs... followed by how did it feel that particular day and did you have curry or pizza for lunch....

After numerous other attributes, comes the climbing experience based on protection, which some here seem to think is the only thing forming the climbing experience... Which is why I used the same exact wording.

As stated above, protection is only a small part of the climbing experience and not even a major factor at that.


Oh, btw... I'm not generally that fond of bolt clippin' and have a love-hate relationship with limestone (in the sense that I love to hate limestone climbing). Granite cracks and slabs is my preferred medium.

In reply to A Random Climber:



Well, if you are talking The Nose, then you are talking long and easy enough for most climbers, not an E11, so I'd say it would have to be:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69926

In reply to HeMa:



I'm not just talking about protection, like you say that's just one part of it. 'How it climbs' is part of the experience. Even the admiration of a 'line' is part of the experience. You can't say anything meaningful about the quality of a climb without recourse to your (or others') experience of it.

In reply to A Random Climber:
I think, and the list of foreign visitors bears me out, that Beinn Eighe is a world class mixed climbing venue. Maybe no single route would justify a trip but as we've already discussed, length is important in that regard. Although if you consider the length of the whole day rather than just the route then Beinn Eighe starts to look much better!

In reply to DaveHK:


Yes... it can be a lengthy day... especially if you get stuck by someone for 3 hours or so...

In reply to Andy Moles:


Indeed... but certain people above seemed to think the experience being all about the protection... or mostly about it.


And like I wrote, protection is not on the top 3 criteria, when it comes to climbing experience...


How ever, you do not even need to touch a route before you can judge if the "line" is good. Sure, you will use your own experience and then from the looks decide, that the certain climb seems to have really a stellar "line".

In reply to The New NickB:


IMO it would be a route which the top 0.01% of climbers (ie. the strongest performing) in any country would aspire to climb.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


If you are arguing that trad is better then it seems like most of the world outside of the UK doesn't see it that way. The main reason for Brits having more memorable experiences here is surely down to the fact the vast majority of our climbing is done here because this is where we live. So statistically the most memorable experiences are bound to be here too.



Well, as above, I'd say our experiences are limited of climbing in France and Spain. Most of us have only seen a tiny proportion of what is over there so if we assume that what we've seen is basically all there is then that is obviously a blinkered and misleading view.




Well you are mixing two different things here: the subjective experience and the objective quality of climbing. I totally agree with you about the subjective experience. One can have a wonderful experience on the scrappiest piece of rock. But this thread is whether we have routes good enough here to entice foreign climbers to visit. That's the objective part, how many stars a particular route is worth on a global scale. I think we do have some great routes here, as good as anywhere, both trad and sport. It's just that there's not that many of them.

It's also worth noting that plenty of climbers emigrate to France and Spain purely for the climbing. Yet I don't think any Spanish or French climbers (or any nationality) have emigrated here for that reason. I think that pretty much says it all.

In reply to HeMa:
Before the discussion gets too badly sidetracked, my point is simply this: given that our assessment of quality stems from our experience, it is reductive to talk down British climbing merely on the basis that we have a lower volume of quality rock than elsewhere - we have the scope for lots of rich and brilliant experiences that have a distinctly different flavour to what you can find anywhere else.

Whether or not they're 'world-class' depends on your criteria, but I'd say we've got plenty (mostly on the peripheries) which is very special. Cut the bottom half off the top-trumps cards and just enjoy the pictures.

In reply to Fraser:


Eh? Surely that should be 99.99% of ALL climbers.

In reply to Fraser:


That's just basing things on difficulty. Difficulty and quality/world class are two completely different things.

Many - in fact possibly the majority - of the best routes in the world, are probably not the hardest.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


I think of it like relationships. We truly love a woman/man when we have built up a deep relationship with them. Although we see photos of impossibly attractive and intelligent people in magazines and perhaps even brush (or even sleep!) with them on our travels, we will still always come home to those we love despite their flaws. Likewise, few of us would swap Mingulay/Gogarth/Cloggy/Beinn Eighe for Yosemite/Arapiles/Indian Creek/Ceuse despite knowing that by all attempted objective measures they probably give better climbing.

In reply to stp:


All it says is that it rains less in France and Spain (and that they have more bolts).

In reply to The New NickB:


I think the OP did this rather well:

"Are there any UK routes you would consider to be a world-class, five-star climb: a route a foreign climber would make a specific trip to the UK just to tick?

In the same way a UK climber would dream about and travel all the way to Norway for Vestpilaren, or Yosemite for The Nose..."

In reply to Fraser:


That sounds like a definition of the hardest, not the best quality?

Chris

In reply to Goucho:

Well, that wasn't really what I was getting at. It was more that these are the people most likely to have climbed the most routes of any grade and to have travelled more extensively than us mere mortals.




'Best' is just too subjective, but based on on my personal criteria, I'd definitely disagree there. I think climbing undoubtedly gets better with grade, nomatter what type of climbing it is. But that's the subject of a whole separate thread!

Edit: I think the top (strongest) climbers probably have the pick of the bunch, so I suppose it's those routes I'm referring to.

In reply to Goucho: But it does open up for another thread...

'Of the 'worlds hardest climb' (I've seen in a magazine or real life) which looked the most dross?'

I can think of some boulder problems in caves that may well have been 8b+ but still looked rubbish and stank like a leaky bog outlet. So , no , difficulty doesn't equal quality

In reply to David Coley:

We probably get a good idea of what foreign climbers come to the UK for based on enquiries on the forums. It tends to be grit. Is this the best of UK climbing or the most famous and easily accessible?

My question is what is the mix of factor that contribute to making a world class climb.

In reply to wbo:


I think that only a rough correlation is being claimed - not an absolute relationship!

In reply to David Coley:


As a thought experiment, we could hypothesize what would happen if our crags were not here but somewhere else.

For example, if the whole of Stanage edge was located in Catalunya, or in the North of Italy, would people here fly all the way to climb on it? Would even local climbers have developed it to the extent it's developed here? Would you find 200 people climbing there over the weekends or is it more likely you'll find yourself alone most days?

I honestly doubt the crag would have even had more than a cursory glance to be honest, and i doubt many of the UK crags would fare any better if they were to be in Spain, France, Alps, Italy, etc

In reply to Fraser:


Again I disagree. I've probably climbed more mid grade routes - in a number of different countries - than Sharma, Ondra etc put together. Top climbers go to other countries to climb the hardest routes. Ondra didn't come over to the UK to tick DOWH, Right Unconquerable etc did he?



Some do, some don't. I've climbed Severes which have been utterly magnificent, I've climbed E6's which have been a crock of shite.


They certainly have the pick of the hard routes - but let's be honest, that's all they're interested in for a variety of reasons, including their sponsorship deals.

Just because a route is E11 or 9a, doesn't automatically make it a great route.

In reply to Mr Lopez:




That's a nice way of looking at it but I don't think it's nearly that simple. Climbing in the the UK has developed the way it has largely due to the nature of the rocks available. Similarly in France but different rocks mean different norms. In the UK we have pretty much all kinds of climbing, so import Buoux to the Peak and it would be the most popular crag there because people appreciate the value of that kind of climbing. But France has little or nothing like Grit so import Stanage to Provence and local climbers would largely wonder what to do with it (probably bolt the bigger bits and then leave them to grow vegetated!)

I suspect that if there was a crag just like Stanage discovered somewhere in Europe with reliable weather then it might attract quite a lot of interest from travelling Brits.

In reply to A Random Climber:


Surely if there's one it has to be The Chasm (Summer) (VS). Epitomises everything that makes UK Trad what it is and anywhere else in the world would barely qualify as rock climbing.

In reply to john arran:



Well, that didn't happen in Annot. True, it's not really gritstone but close enough... and also a tad taller.

In reply to Mr Lopez:



If memory serves, Gresham/Emmet went all the way to Mongolia(?) because they'd heard there was some gritstone there. So the answer may well be YES, though it might have to be relatively undeveloped and definitely not bolted!

In reply to HeMa:



It's hard to tell how the experience of a route would be with different protection as obviously a bit of imagination is required. However, when I think of many of my favourite routes I'm fairly sure the experience they provide would have been a far less satisfying one (to me) had they been bolted.

In reply to Robert Durran:


I think a lot of that is to do with the whole place rather than just the crag. Put any of those venues on a Scottish island and it would probably be a different story?

In reply to stp:


Don't worry, I'm not!


I agree - I'm not arguing about what's "better", I'm explaining why if you ask a bunch of Brits on an internet forum whether we have world-class routes, we'll say, "yes, the best routes I've ever done have been here". This might be due to unrepresentative sampling as well as other biases (e.g. that you rate highly what you consider "yours"), true, but it isn't "ignorance, misplaced patriotism or some kind of denial" - it's genuine reflection on experience.


Not really: all climbing *is* subjective experience. You can make statistical measures about those subjective experiences, such as "how many people said they preferred x to y", which is the closest you'll get to objective.


It says a lot about the quantity and accessibility and weather, as well the quality. I don't think either that UK is a better place to live as a climber, or that the routes here are objectively better than elsewhere. Just that if you ask British climbers whether we have world class routes, we'll say yes because *our experience* reflects that the routes here are as good as or better than anything we've done abroad.

When I was on Pabbay and Mingulay, we met a couple of Scandinavian blokes who were spending weeks there. If you haven't been, and you fancy a change to some trad, it really is worth travelling a long way for!

In reply to Robert Durran:


Nice analogy. It wouldn't take much for me to dump Gogarth for Arapiles though! I mean there's loyalty, and there's being covered head to foot in green pubes.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


I only included Gogarth and Arapiles to account for some people's unaccountable tastes!

In reply to Robert Durran:


Well that's just pure denial. Of course the weather plays a factor. But basically the random geological formations on the earth are not distributed evenly and some parts of the globe are better for climbing than others. Britain is not the worst place but it's certainly not the best either. To believe that it might be is like burying one's head in a paper bag and refusing to look at what else is out there.

It's also worth noting that even Americans (eg. Chris Sharma) have emigrated to Europe for the climbing. And there's no shortage of bolts or good weather in the US.

In reply to stp:


Nonsense. If the weather in the UK was as reliable as in Spain, the number of British climbers flying to Spain would plummet, because most of us would prefer to be climbing in the UK - we book cheap flights to Spain as an insurance policy against our holiday being a wet write off at home. Of course out and out sport climbers would still go to Spain, but that is because the sport there is far superior. Those more interested in trad would stay at home because its definiely more varies and just as good if not better here.


Sharma is a world class sport climber who presumably wants to be at the world centre of gravity of sport climbing - in my experience even quite heavily hyped US sport climbing is a bit disappointing. And I certainly can't imagine a US trad climber moving to Spain (or to the UK) for the climbing.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


I would call that 'ignorance'. Not in an insulting way (it's a loaded word) but simply not knowing what else is out there. Also if someone doesn't have much experience of one thing over another then they should be able to recognize the fact they're not in good position to judge. Better to be honest and say 'I don't know, haven't seen much of xyz' than argue that the UK equals elsewhere.

Racism and xenophobia are, in part, based on ignorance or unfamiliarity with different cultures. Thoughtful people recognize their own cultural biases and try to take account of that. The thoughtless will just assume the different culture is inferior to ours.

I think one can divorce one's subjective climbing experience from what a good route or crag is and I'm sure we do it all the time. We can get on a fantastic route and completely cock it up, climb badly and generally have an unpleasant experience but still understand the reasons for that and not claim that it's because it was awful route. We can appreciate the quality despite having a bad experience.

In reply to stp:


Nothing to do with him previously having a Spanish girlfriend of course.

In reply to Mr Lopez:





This is an interesting point. But i think it shows just how complicated these issues. If Stanage was sitting ignored in Catalonia it would be of little climbing worth. But that is in part because it would more competition but it is also because it would be of less use in an undeveloped state

Part of what gives Stanage its value is that you can stop in Hathersage and choose your prefered style of guide book and perhaps ask behind the counter for advice on routes and parking. You can then enjoy your day on clean and sound rock

So to me that shows that world class climbing is about more than the "the rock". Its about the rock, the climbs established on the rock and the documentation of those routes and even facilities for climbers

I think the climbing here is good and in particular I have enjoyed the sea cliffs of Pembrokeshire, Gogarth and Cornwall.

On the other hand a short low grade trip with my wife to Arapiles was a revelation in terms of quality of routes. It might be that for higher grades the difference would be less marked but around severe to Very Severe I think they are the best routes I have experienced.

Arapiles

Eskimo Nell (10)

Lamplighter (14)

Bard (12)

I'd say The Bard is probably the best route I've ever done. My log books isn't in use here but I have done some classics. All the "hard Rock" Routes at Gogarth for example. But maybe the holiday sunshine blured my judgement

Also while i think about it on the same trip we did this

Eldorado Canyon

Bastille Crack (5.7 4c)

https://www.mountainproject.com/v/the-bastille-crack/105748490

I think when I done this one I said" That felt like a pile of gritstone classics"

So based on having been lucky enough to climb in a few spots outside the Uk and found them very good I would be surprised if the climbing of England and Wales was the best in the world

In reply to HeMa:

I think this is bonkers. I recently went to Riglos, and the fact that it's bolted means that I could get up unbelievably steep terrain that (even if there was any gear) I simply couldn't contemplate on trad gear. On the other hand, unprotected grit routes like Archangel (or the equivalent classic at whatever grade) wouldn't be anything if you stuck 2 bolts in them. The gear makes all the difference.

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):


It's a good route but not that good. More historically significant than anything else. In fact my whole feeling about El Dorado was that I might as well have stayed in the UK. Pushed off to Utah pretty promptly.

In reply to Robert Durran:


This doesn't completely contradict my point. I was there as i planned to travel with my girl friend and we planned to stay with a friend in Boulder. Just before we left she took up climbing. So I was in Eldorado canyon by chance. I enjoyed Bastille more than Nutcracker in Yosemite, same trip. The fact that I happened on a good route makes me wonder how much good climbing there is around the world. But I though that Arapiles was a level above, but we planned to go there for climbing.

PS i assume that I was at University with you. Your climbing experience must totally eclipse mine as I haven't done much over the last 20 odd years

In reply to Jon Stewart:


No it doesn't...

You're lookin' at things through the tinted glasses of a tradster... And it's clouding your judgement.

Archangel is a boulder (albeit a highball one). Were it twice as long, it would still be a stellar line... but if unprotected... most likely it would be unclimbed. Now a few bolts on such a line, and it would be good climb that would get also done.

A line is a line, it is about how it looks (ie. esthetics), later how it climbs and so on. The gear is newer the deciding factor...

A shit*y line is crap, even it it has marginal gear, no gear or bolts.

A stellar line is stellar line due to numerous things (see above), but protection (or lack off) isn't at the top of the list.


And guess what, in order to have a world class route... well start with a world class line...

In reply to HeMa:


Trad and aid climbing are the oldest forms of rock climbing so how can gear be a newer factor?

In reply to HeMa:

Archangel would still see plenty ascents if it were twice the length, just at a harder grade (E4/5?).

Speaking more generally though, I think you exaggerate the importance of the 'line' slightly. That's mainly the route's appearance before you set foot on it. It only affects the climbing in that it could be an arete, open book corner, crack etc but it doesn't mean it will have good moves or even good rock. Of course we all like a big imposing feature on a cliff - it's another aspect of a route's quality - but that's all it is.

In reply to HeMa:


Yes it does. The type, quantity and quality of protection makes a massive contribution to the experience of climbing a route. And the experience of climbing a route is what we are talking about; how else can you talk about the quality of a route (and yes, the quality of a line is part of the aesthetic experience)?

In reply to stp:

But there is a massive shortage of high quality limestone in the US, as there is in Britain. If you want to climb limestone sport routes year round with good weather you move to spain or france. If not there's no reason. For me to move to Spain would be to leave behind a hige amount of what I enjoy in climbing. Your entire argument is based on an entirely subjective opinion of what constitutes good climbing. As is the rest of this thread. But that's exactly it. What is good to some isn't necessarily good to others. I agree that the stone in places like Siurana and the Verdon is perfect, but frankly I find the lack of genuine lines (face it, the closest most of those routes get to an actual line is a streak down the wall - I like actual features), and the repetitive nature of climbing on limestone a bit dull, so I'd pick something like Conan or the Cumbrian or Edge Lane over Spanish limestone almost every time (even if they were bolted).

In reply to Goucho:

It appears we'll have to settle on disagreeing.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Yes... unless the line is even somewhat inspiring, why would you want to climb it.


And Robert, the protection is only part of the experience if you make it so. I've climbed some really good lines that follow these nice scoops, and have no protection (so bolts). And I've climbed some nice strikin' cracks (that eat gear)... and i've climbed some aretas that have spaced breaks for gear.

All have been worthwile or even stellar climbing because on how the line looks.. and while on it, how it climbs. not on how it is protected or not protected.

That said, protection can also ruin a line... like a nice crack that you bolt.

But a stellar line looks the business and climbs like it is supposed to climb... and protection plays little role on it.

In reply to HeMa:

You could say the same about line, moves, rock quality etc, etc, etc.......
Actually they are all part of the experience whether you want it or not.

In reply to HeMa:


Routes can be inspiring without being strong lines. It's just one factor, and some might say a less important one, relatively speaking.

In reply to HeMa:


In the case of many sport routes, and long bolted routes too, the protection *is* the line.

In reply to A Random Climber:

I can think of three routes which have had regular attention from foreign climbers: -

Strawberries
Masters Edge
Gaia

Not sure if that makes them world class/5 star, etc. but I suppose it must be an indicator.
They probably epitomise what the UK is good at: Single pitch trad that pack a lot in, that have a sense of history and are a little bit 'quirky'.

In reply to A Random Climber:

As Henry Barber put it.... sort of: it's the small and perfectly formed nature (and variety) of our routes that is so special. Otherwise, how can you have so much discussion about 3PS?

In reply to bensilvestre:



That the climbing in Spain (and France, or Italy, or anywhere in europe really) is mostly bolted limestone is a major misconception. There's tons of trad climbing in a variety of rocks and styles all over the country, you just don't hear of it.

For a quick example, have a browse through here and click on the pics for some developments in the NE http://escaladatradicional.com/

Or through this page, which is all about a single crag in central Spain http://www.clownclimbing.com/articulos/32-razones-para-ir-a-galayos/?lang=e... (click on the faces for pics)

Or how about this for a 7c trad? http://paredesdelmundo.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/risco-del-fraile-gredos-via-g...

In reply to A Random Climber:

Obviously there's other stuff to do there but if the trad were of the same quality as the sport we'd know about it. Im not suggesting bits of it aren't, just that it's unlikely that the mentioned british expats are moving to spain for the trad climbing. My wording when I said 'no reason' was perhaps misguided, however.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

Great links - cheers for those!

In reply to bensilvestre:

In my early visits to France I used to carry a trad rack because I wasn't really sure what to expect and thought we might need it. One day at St Victoire we spotted an unbolted finger crack and decided to climb it. It was a great little route, about E4 6a and we thought as good as something like Bitter Fingers at Stoney only on better cleaner rock. In France a route like that is completely insignificant because there is just so much rock. No one had even bothered to bolt it, yet situated over here it would have been considered a classic route. There must be thousands of lines like that scattered around the enormous amounts of rock in France.

I think its a matter of perspective. When in Sardinia a friend I was with decided to take a rest day and go walking. In the evening he said he'd been up one valley that had more limestone than the whole of the UK, and of course it was much better quality.

People who move to France and Spain have that perspective. The best climbing we have here is alright but there simply isn't a lot of it. What makes our routes special to us is their history and reputation, far more than their quality. Take that away and just compare quality climbs with quality climbs and the UK just can't compete.

In reply to stp:

Similarly, I watched a Brit try and climb a bolted F6b(-ish) crack climb at La Turbie in 1997 on trad gear. He was maybe 7-8m up and having a complete sweaty-forehead, knee-trembler as none of his gear would stay in place. In the end he admitted defeat, clipped the bolts and I'm fairly sure had a more enjoyable experience. Whilst he was placing his own gear, I'm not sure who was the more nervous - him or me, trying not to watch!

In reply to A Random Climber:

Baildon Bank. 'nuff said.

In reply to boxmonkey_tv:


DOWH isn't even the best HVS on Wen Slab

In reply to A Random Climber:

Ben Nevis- Tower Ridge in winter
(the fact that I was on it with a group from Italy, another from Spain and some French people too) seems to add up.

Lakes- Dow Crag, Eliminate A
or Scafell- Central Buttress

Cornwall- Sennen- Demo route

In reply to kevin stephens:


Whichever one is must be pretty spectacular then. Care to enlighten us?

I fail to understand why DOWH gets a bad press from some people on here. In 50 years of climbing, mostly around VS - E1, it remains one of THE standout climbs for me.

Is it world-class? Perhaps not. But if it isn't, it will be because nothing in the UK qualifies (eg for lack of length).

Is it worth coming half way round the world just to do that route? Almost certainly not, but I agree with others on here that the UK sea cliff experience is very special, and DOWH is a top example of that genre. I would travel a long way for a week of climbing that included days at Gogarth, Pembroke and/or Cornwall.

Martin

In reply to Martin Hore: I've always found Concrete Chimney a better route; spectacular climbing rather than nice climbing that looks spectacular from a distance

In reply to jezzah:



Not even close to the best route at the crag, but world class? Really?

In reply to stp:


So I've just skimmed through the 38 pages of your UKC logbook and have to ask (things conspicuous by their absence)... do you ever climb on big mountain crags, in Scotland etc.?

In reply to kevin stephens:


I agree. It has really good climbing rather than nondescript climbing albeit in spectacular situations. Of course the real contenders for world class status seas cliff routes have both brilliant climbing and spectacular situations.

In reply to petestack:

No and its a good point I know there is a lot of rock there. One time there we were midged out. Did do a little bit of stuff on Skye. And a little bit of cragging when working up there many years ago.

I suppose it depends where you live but for me France isn't that much further and you're far less likely to get bad weather/midges/ticks all of which I've experienced on my few visits in the past. Plus being more into sport these days makes France and Europe an even more logical choice.

In reply to stp:

Ah well that it explains it! Saying British rock climbing is a bit rubbish when you've barely climbed in Scotland is a bit like saying Peak limestone is a bit rubbish when you've only climbed in Horseshoe quarry

In reply to kevin stephens:


Ah, well I've not done Concrete Chimney - put off by the name possibly. Must get to do it.

Martin

In reply to A Random Climber:

Little Chamonix.

In reply to A Random Climber:

I would say there are some world class venues. Ben Nevis (summer or winter) is one. Other I would suggest: Scafell East Buttress, Cloggy, Gogarth, Stanage, Sron na Ciche, Shelterstone, Mother Carey's Kitchen.

In reply to Peter Metcalfe:

Is quite fun. Troutdale Pinnacle in the same valley is arguably better, if not world class. But maybe an excellent trad route in a beautiful Lakes valley is, in a way, 'world class.

In reply to Peter Metcalfe:


I can't decide if that was a joke or not?

In reply to A Random Climber:

the one I did come over for: Old man of Hoy.

The next one in UK will be hebrides, so probably prophecy of drowning (But it will have to compete with some other places I haven't been to: Lofoten, Bohuslan, Orco)

In reply to A Random Climber:

I thought the Canadian visitors' write-ups of their Scottish adventures were really interesting. They reassure me that we're not just being parochial in saying that Scottish winter climbing is brilliant:

http://alpinejustice.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/if-its-not-scottish.html?m=1

http://alpinejustice.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/if-its-not-scottish.html?m=1

These guys are genuinely world class climbers so if it's good enough for them to be making multiple visits from Canada (which isn't exactly lacking in good winter climbing), that tells me something.

In reply to A Random Climber:

Deam of White Horses
Old Man of Stoer
Cuillin Ridge

In reply to Neil Adams:

The Scottish winter climbing is certainly brilliant.

And even though I really enjoyed, can't really say it was because of the routes (didn't do Point 5 nor Orion). It was more about the style, heritage, available selection and the weather. Not to mention the compact nature of Scotland... And I took part in the BMC meet 2 years ago, so we ended up driving quite a bit.

Canada and Norway certainly have more suitable rock available for winter climbing... but is far less developed. Where as in Scotland you can't shake a stick, without hitting the start of a historical climb .

In reply to HeMa:


I'd say that was debatable. Most of the stuff I've seen in Norway involves more of a Euro style bolted dry tooling that could be climbed during any season were it not for discontinuous sections of ice needing to be linked. The stuff in the mountains I've yet to be convinced is better than Scotland because the rock is often looser. Scotland's rock seems generally more weathered and more featured with more in the way of natural winter lines. I know Senja is supposed to be excellent but then I haven't seen a huge amount of easier stuff there. I'm not strictly disagreeing, I'm just saying I'm not yet convinced.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

I've climbed certainly some lovely granite near Trondheim that was not all that loose.

But I'm sure there's also an abundance of choss as well.

That said, there was choss in Scotland too...

I think the main difference would be the different rock types available in Scotland (from sandstone to granite), where as Norway is pretty much all about granite, quertzite and gneiss...