UKC

We've recently been introduced to trad - have only seconded, practiced gear placement at ground level, and am off on a PYB course soon. I often see and read the news and other stories about gear popping out, placement failing, climbiers taking huge falls, and plenty of injuries, but how often does this actually happen?

tbh, I find the concepts behind trad scary, but I'm going to give it the best shot and want to learn as much as I can. Do you find that for every pitch you've climbed, you'll have x% of gear pop out, or does it rarely happen with you?

I'm interested to hear if it's a common thing for everyone, happens more to people pushing near their climbing limits, or mainly happens when you're complacent or not too fastidious about placement.

Cheers!

In reply to two_tapirs:

Trad climbing is actually nowhere near as dangerous as it sounds like it is. I can't remember the numbers but I remember it being safer than skiing.

Gear coming loose happens much more on higher grades or badly protected routes. Most people will find gear rarely comes out.

Hope that helps.

In reply to two_tapirs:


That's one question that is really difficult to answer. From my (granted, fairly limited) experience, the main reasons for a trad placement failing/popping out are:

i) It's a shit placement so no matter what you do, it's coming out

ii) It's a very directional placement so the rope may pull it out as you climb past.

iii) It wasn't seated heavily enough so again, the rope may pull it out.

The gear available is as much a factor of the rock features as it is on the leader's gear placing ability so trying to generalise on something that is very situation dependent won't (I think) get you a very conclusive picture in your head.

With the above in mind, I will say that there have been some routes I have climbed where the gear has just been abysmal with some pieces desperately thrown in pulling out as I climbed above them. Equally, there have been others where every placement has been bombproof.

If you're nervous about poorly protected routes then pick your routes accordingly and when you have more experience under your belt perhaps the idea of ticking off some bold climbs might not seem so scary.

In reply to two_tapirs:
I've had 3 pieces lift out, once on Pinnacle Rib Route (D) walked to the back of a ledge, climbed the wall, placed a 14 rock and over i went, (INSTA-ROPEDRAG) so I pulled rope up hard to fling it.

Second was on Snoozin' Suzie (VD) rock 14 again, (Ended up sellimg the rocks.) Not good bits of kit imo

Third on Eastender (HVS 5a) clipped the lower off and got lowered off, stripping gear as i came down, a small wire pulled outwards.

Never fallen on gear. Don't fancy it. Never lost a piece neither.

In reply to two_tapirs:

Easy vertical grades wil rarely pop gear. On sideways traverses I've had bits come out and on much harder routes with crap protection.
Easy cragging on routes graded in the 4's should get you in a good place to move forwards.

In reply to two_tapirs:
It's sort of a 'how long is a piece of string' question, for my dad who started in the 60's, and placed things like moacs and straight sided hexes, as well as tapered sided hexes and nuts on wire, he's never had a runner come out, with VS probably being the hardest thing he climbed.

I've got less experience than him in both leading and in placing gear, and had a wire wiggle out near the bottom of Knight's Move at Burbage, in hindsight because I didn't extend it or well enough.

If you know what you're doing there's 'probably' no reason gear should come out, but there's quite often a chance it could do with something as variable as rock being dealt with, especially when it's not something fairly beefy that's placed well into a tapering crack which is wiggled in from the side on reliably sound rock.

In reply to two_tapirs:

If it helps, there are plenty of well protected E3 & E4s. I try to avoid chop routes (dangerous ones) even at lower grades and don't have any issues finding suitably safe routes up to E3/4. I have only tied onto one E5 and fell off that a few times before being beaten, but one route isn't a broad enough brush.

I can't recall the last time a famous climber died on a UK style crag due to ground fall via risk taking/poor gear.
Infact, there are few accidents each year given the number of routes climbed. So trad is relatively safe in reality, but your head may not agree when on lead!

Gear does come out, but not that often, and its usually when you knew it was garbage any way, or gets shaken out/ pulled out by the rope after you have passed needing to rely on it.

Remember to extend gear. Have a good belayer (there is a lot to trad belaying that can help with a safe fall)

You should be risk assessing as you go up a route, if you want to avoid a death ground fall then there are few excuses for finding yourself in such a position - you should have seen the situation in the first place and either a) backed down or b) placed more gear or c) Made a better route choice in the first place.

Most people have plenty in the tank with respect to climbing the moves, hence most have a far higher sport (&bouldering) grade than their equivalent trad grade).

Personally I've flashed V7, and onsighted sport 7a+. This should mean I could onsight a number of E6s. But I still have achieved a hard for me grade when I climb an E3 (about sport 6b+). So its not climbing ability holding me back.

Trad is an adventure. Cliched, but enjoy the journey and take your own time.

K

In reply to two_tapirs:

Yes and No

It's complex
If you are comfortable at the grade, if the placements are good and if you place gear competently and make the ropes run well the gear should nearly always stay in.
If you are scared, need more pro than available, you will use marginal placements, you might clip the rope haphazardly then some (perhaps most) of your gear will fall out however if you fall off some may stay put and save you!
When learning you might want to select routes that have lots of good placements

In reply to two_tapirs:

I'd had 2 or 3 pieces rip, all of which I knew were shit.

If gear falls out below you, you were pretty much always expecting it. After just a little experience

In reply to two_tapirs:

As mentioned by others gear pops out for a variety of reasons. The poorer the placement and the less well seated by the leader the more likely it is to pop out. Mostly it happens because the gear is given a pull in a direction that wasn't anticipated, usually outwards or sideways.

Lower pieces of gear especially will often pop out when the leader takes the rope in having completed the pitch. It's very easy to generate an outward pull at that point. This doesn't matter much of course, but the same can happen if the belayer pays out rope too slowly while the leader is climbing - bigger problem - or the leader takes a fall - biggest problem. Fortunately the top piece of gear seldom pops in this circumstance. However it's worrying to take a fall on the top piece of gear only to see all or most of your other pieces "unzip" beneath you!

Experienced leaders will adopt various methods to avoid this happening. Long extenders help where the rope will not take a straight line through the placement. Choosing placements that will take a pull in different directions is always wise where these are available (they aren't always). Threads are especially good and cams are often better than nuts in this regard, though I prefer a well placed nut if I can find one as it will stay where I put it and not walk.

The most important precaution is to use double ropes. Most of the above problems are reduced if you do that.

Martin

In reply to two_tapirs:

Trad protection can be very good - as in way more protection than some sport routes, but sometimes it isn't. Don't enter into trad climbing seeing protection placements as your only safety - sensible route choice and solid movement are just as important. It's the amalgamation of all this and more that makes it what it is.

In reply to two_tapirs:

Gear lifts out if it has an upward outward pull generally. So to resist this extend gear well. For trad leave short sporty quickdraws in your bag! Also ensure your belayer does not stand too far out from the base of the crag. Gear hardly ever lifts if placed well and with experience you will have an idea if a piece might, in fact sometimes you may place a piece that may well lift, knowing it will protect you upto a more meaningful placement.

The reality is most trad leaders do not fall or take falls early in a climbing career, most usually climbing within their ability level. Developing gear placement assessment and climbing skills steadily together. This in itself can become an issue.......but that's a different question.

Trad climbing can be pretty safe, perhaps safer than sport climbing. Though be aware some easier routes can have dangerous fall potential, while some technically harder ones can be as safe as houses. Comes down to picking routes wisely.

Relax and enjoy your PYB course!

In reply to two_tapirs:

Yes, it happens a lot. Either because of placing token pieces that you think will probably fall out, and they do, or sometimes a few small bits are placed together and the sum total of them is what's protecting a fall. Or just because they lift out with the rope, or whatever.

The important thing is that it's rare in my experience for a crucial bit to fail. Since trad gear is fallible, you don't put all your faith in one piece unless you have to (and you've weighed up the risk of doing so with the difficulty of the climbing, etc). While gear pops all the time, it's very rarely of much consequence. With a bit of experience, it's perfectly possible to make sure, while accounting for the risk of gear failing (which might be high or minimal depending on the route), that you're still pretty safe.

In reply to zimpara:


There's nothing wrong with rocks! I think you need to work on your placements instead.

OP: In my experience gear doesn't come out all that often. If it does it's usually when I'm taking the rope in at the top or on marginal placements that I knew weren't very good. Seating your gear well, extending it properly and good ropework are the best things you can do, plus getting your belayer to stand well into the rock/using a cam near the bottom to avoid unzipping.

Go on your course then just go climbing, doing easy routes and placing loads of gear. Most of it will be shit at first but if you're on easy stuff you shouldn't be falling off. As you do more routes your gear placements will improve, as will your confidence, and you'll soon feel comfortable with it all. It's worth climbing with someone experienced to check your placements as well, getting a bit of feedback can be really helpful.

In reply to two_tapirs:

I think for openers you need a more refined description than "popping out." There are two broad types of "pop out" failures: (1) the gear fails because the load imposed on it is too high for the gear or the placement. (2) The gear fails because rope motions either extract it or move it to a place of low effectiveness. Within these categories, different considerations and approaches obtain depending on whether the gear is a nut or a cam.

In addition to the "pop out" failures, there are failures in which some auxiliary element of the system fails, i.e. a carabiner breaks, rope unclips from a carabiner, or even the rope itself gets cut.

There is actually quite a lot to learn, and no one, no matter how experienced, is immune to gear failures, expected and unexpected. The basics involve understanding when a placement is intrinsically good, anticipating and guarding against rope motions that will compromise the placement, and being vigilant about situations that could break carabiners, cause unclipping, or slice the rope.

It isn't wrong for this to feel a bit daunting. There are risks inherent in trad climbing, and these risks are elevated for people just learning the game. The best single thing you can do while learning, and to some extent after, is to strive for redundancy. Resign yourself to the fact that you may be slow and annoying to climb with at first. Try to never have a piece that is the only thing between you and a bad injury or death. Make sure you have enough on your rack so that you can double up in critical situations, and try not to run it out on easy ground and then only protect when you suddenly encounter something harder.

If you are coming from a sport climbing background in which most falls are trivial, most difficulties are solved by moving up, and the hardest thing about protecting is clipping a bolt that is already in place, then certain mental adjustments are also called for. Trad climbers climb down from cruxes more often and try to sort things out from a lower stance rather than blasting on in the hopes of reaching a bucket. Perhaps the hardest thing to learn, especially as the difficulty (for you) goes up, is the discipline to get protection arranged when you are under pressure and feeling either insecure or tired or both. The anxiety and tension fuel a powerful urge to stampede out of there, but this can end very badly if you manage to put a good distance between you and your last piece.

In reply to two_tapirs:

Always seat nuts, give them a good yank down and then a wiggle to see if they are secure or if there's any movement. Should the piece move, reseat it or replace it with a larger piece.

I've pulled gear, very disconcerting when you're above it but generally I saw it coming/knew the piece was marginal. Or commonly when pulling ropes through at the top of a climb, especially when bad placements combine with zig zaggy ropework and not enough extenders... (I only own 6 quickdraws and a half set of nuts as I haven't been able to afford to replace everything I had stolen yet...)

Once ripped a nut out in a fall but I knew it was too small and had placed the size I needed securely 2 feet below and decided it was better to leave that in place as there was no danger of decking. Scary, but a risk that I was aware of and had weighed up before committing to.

Generally I don't have gear pull, but there are certain things that will minimise the risk. For example, have your belayer stand close to the rock but slightly to the side instead of standing back from the rock (slightly to the side to avoid any falling debris). Standing back will place an outwards force on the lowest piece that may cause it to pull, "unzipping" each of your pieces in a fall. If it is unavoidable for the belayer to be stood back, consider placing a cam as the first piece on each rope, or an upside down nut.
Consider the orientation of each piece in relation to a fall, or a dragging rope, in particular be careful under overlaps or overhangs where there may be an outwards force, or around aretes and angle changes.
Gear pulling is part of good placements. Other strategies will include thinking about ropework to minimise drag, redundancy, protecting the second, etc. Pick up Libby Peters book, it's really informative. Sounds like you've booked in some courses which is good. Try climbing with more experienced partners as you'll learn alot quicker that way. If you don't know anybody, there are plenty of clubs. Good luck, and have fun!

In reply to two_tapirs:

When I first started climbing trad pretty much every other bit of gear I placed fell out and went zipping down the rope. After a while I learned how to place gear properly and since then very few placements have failed.
So it's all a case of learning, not just which gear goes where but also when to extend gear and when to seat heavily or climb gently past delicate placements.
I've only taken 3 falls onto gear iirc and try not to make a habit of it.

In reply to two_tapirs:

When you get to cams, cams are not symmetrical, there is 2 ways to place any cam
Place cam in crack , position 1, now take it out rotate through 180 degrees and replace it, position 2
They are different and only one of the choices is optimal
You probably have to try this with cam in hand on a real crack

In reply to two_tapirs:
It's a very good point to differentiate between lifting out, and pulling out when fallen on.

If you're climbing on easier routes on somewhere like Stanage where the rock is generally very sound, it should be pretty easy to start off climbing on routes with places to stand in balance at when placing gear - where you can safely wiggle in things like wires and hexes and things which are bigger than the width of your hand into cracks so they're really well seated into tapering cracks, where there's just about no chance of them pulling out in a fall (unless the crag falls to bits in a fundamental way). For the ones my dad was impressed by when teaching me to lead with him having fallen on gear in the past, my runners were in cracks which were noticeably tapering in a way which showed there was no way the runners would pull out, and they were wiggled in a long way from the side or from above, so it'd take a bit of time to remove them - or a very large of rope movement to wiggle them out through rope drag (if that would happen at all).

The urge for survival is pretty helpful in making you safe.

In reply to two_tapirs:

It's extremely variable from pitch to pitch and climber to climber.

Your experience of trad on welsh mountain volcanics which swallow up nuts in secure constricting placements is going to be very different to your experience of rotting fulmar infested shale where nothing is truly secure.

As a coward who doesn't like climbing where big ground/ledge falls are the likely result of a mistake I can tell you my experience of trad climbing is that the gear is pretty solid and closer together than most bolts. That said, I've lifted plenty of runners out with the rope but they were rarely my only bit in and I've ripped a couple of bits in falls which came as no surprise. I wouldn't have been risking the fall if they were my only bits.

It's a judgement thing, your judgement will start out pretty poor so take it easy, make your mistakes and avoid routes where a fall is probable then as you feel your judgement improve you can begin to choose the risks you take a little better. It's not death on a stick or at least it doesn't have to be.
jk

Many trad climbers climb well below their technical grade. As result they rarely fall or not fall at all for years. That makes it more safe and ruins statistics.

The fact that doing trad route I sometime will put 2 - 3 pieces of pro next to each other. But I would never bother to clip 3 bolts 5cm apart each other on sport routes.

In reply to two_tapirs:

whilst this post is so far down I'm probably talking to myself but ......

Trad protection unlike sport is all about redundancy. You have two ropes not just to ease you round the corners but also to give you two independent points of protection anywhere on the route.

Personally, having climbed for over twenty years mostly on trad, I find that it is best to assume that some of the trad gear will fall out. The consequence of that assumption is therefore to be extremely careful close to the ground, protect on both ropes, and reduce the possible pull angles on all the gear by putting in long extenders. 60 cm slings is my usual choice for extension. That is usually enough to guarantee that whilst climbing the pull angle is never above 90 degrees and in a fall it is always downwards on the top two bits of pro.

Your life is not in danger if lower bits fall out of course as its the top bits that are protecting you.

finally I am much happier on overhangs as there is nothing to hit and the pull angle is better on long run-outs.

In reply to two_tapirs:

It's normally quite easy to tell if a placement is good or bad.

My problem with nut placements is I normally seat them so hard my second can barely remove them. I'm certain they would take a leader fall. I'm working on getting a better balance between welded in and secure...

In reply to two_tapirs:

Some people place great gear, quickly and efficiently, and climb confidently past.

Others of us prefer to place one okay cam and then think hang on, the crux is ahead and am I going to trust my life to one bloody cam? And so stop to fiddle in a couple of dodgy wires. Then, realising how dodgy they are place another cam. Make half a move upwards and then think christ I'm pumped and all my gear is lousy, and have I got anything to protect the top moves. So place a nut and go back for one of the cams. Then realise that the ropes are crossing over, so stop to sort that out, before eventually struggling on upwards powered now mainly by adrenaline and fear...

I really should climb some sport.

In reply to jkarran:



You must carry a hell of a lot of gear

Al

In reply to two_tapirs:

I think on my first lead, I had 2 wires pop out. Since then, I don't think I've ever had more than 2 pieces of gear come out on a route. The vast majority of my routes, none of my gear will fall out, although when I've had falls, some of it has zippered out (always low-down nuts).

General tips to avoid gear coming out:
- Get familiar with the concept of the force on a piece of gear being at the bisection of the angle of the rope through it when taut. Visualize this whenever you are climbing.
- Properly extend any key pieces. It's often better to fall a guaranteed extra 60 centimetres than to risk having the gear coming out and then falling an extra 6 metres. Be careful extending too much at the bottom of the route, and around ledges however.
- Place an early cam (or other multi-directional piece, such as a thread, or deep-seated hex/nut). These will prevent zippering, as they can sustain upwards force and "protect" the upper gear from this upwards force.
- If a sling or nut could be pulled out as it's a bit loose, you can weight the placement with a big hex/cam to help keep it in.
- If a placement must not fail, there's nothing wrong with building a mini-belay mid-route (unless it's in a place where it's too pumpy). You can use screwgates here too for extra security (I often do on pegs).
- Get your belayer to stand as close in to the route as possible. However it's a trade-off between being hit my detritus/falling climbers/having good vis and zippering the gear out.
- A trick I use is to have 2x revolver wiregate slingdraws, and I place these on any "rope corners". If placed correctly they can heavily reduce rope drag, and this helps to keep gear in.
- If you are going to place a shit piece of gear (usually I do this only as a psychological thing, or to "get into the zone of placing and clipping gear") - tell your belayer that you've put a shit piece in, and why. This helps to allay any fears or doubts about your ability to be safe when it inevitably comes out, or if your belayer discovers a cosmetically placed nut.
- If you need to put crucial gear in to protect a crux, but you'd get too pumped getting it in - considering placing it properly then down-climbing to a rest before doing the crux. In other words there's sometimes no need to try and place gear and go for the crux in one go, when you can place a bomber gear, rest up for 5 mins then do the crux.

Hope some of that helps

In reply to two_tapirs:
For what it's worth......

I have climbed since 1997 and led about 500 trad pitches, VS to E1.

About 15 leader falls, none over 8 feet. No injuries to speak of, bar a couple of trivial bruises. In all but one of these, the top piece held and in the final one (6 years ago and poor choice or route and gear, as well as over-ambition!) the top bit ripped and the next bit held.

I firmly believe that Trad rock climbing is quite a safe sport with careful route choice.

hope this helps,

M

In reply to GridNorth:

Nothing exceptional: ~2.5 sets of nuts, full set of cams to fist size plus a few extras on 25+m pitches. Mostly then I add quickdraws so I can better use the nuts.

Around here 6 bolts sees you up a 15m route but by choice I'd probably put 10+ runners in that assuming they were mostly good and the climbing steady. That's just how I climb and when threads like this crop up I occasionally get mocked for saying so. Each to their own, it works for me
jk

In reply to two_tapirs:

I hate this term "pop". It implies that its just one of those things, nothing to do with user error. I would suggest most times someone says their gear "popped" or their toe "popped", its because their gear wasn't placed or extended properly or their climbing wasn't precise enough. A better / more experienced climber using all the same kit would not have gear or feet "pop"

So that's a long winded way of saying the frequency of gear failure is pretty much correlated with the competence of the climber to place it.

In reply to jkarran:

10 runners in 15 metres sounds a lot, especially on steady climbing. I think I would plan for about 6 or 7 but as you say "each to their own".

Al

In reply to johnjohn:

... and then realise that you've left your headlamp in the car because the climb was supposed to take four hours. It has now taken eight, it is now dark and you're still on the second-last pitch and know that the crag is notorious for having a completely obtuse walk-out.

In reply to Xharlie:
On the other hand, you haven't fallen off, ripped a critical piece of gear, hit a ledge and broke both your legs, so could be worse :P

(a big believer in being generally quite conservative in trad in the absence of genuine pressing concerns e.g. big mountain routes with objective danger - you are pretty unlikely to die if you get benighted on most UK crags...)

In reply to two_tapirs:


I taught my on to lead over Easter. I was far more scared that I was leading him into something dangerous than I was ever worried about myself. But I calmed myself be remembering that injury is rare whilst leading on Rock. Yes runners can fall out or fail under load. But that is only a problem if you fall off and they are your only protection. learning to place an assess runner is what you'll learn at PYB




Your skill as a leader includes having in your head all the variables. 3 foot below me is a cam in a good crack 6 foot below me is a solid wire. There are no ledges sticking out and the move is within my abilty. Push on and get the job done the risks are low.

Now we can think of factors that would increase the risk. You have to decide whether the risk of falling is justifiable given the level of protection.

Think about riding a bike. I wear a helmet as i believe that could reduce the risk of hurting myself if I fall off. But I don't think if i dive off my bike head first I'll be fine. I slow down as i approach a junction so i have more time to react to traffic. But I can't cover every moronic action of a driver. I ride in a way that makes the risk acceptable. Climbing is the same. The protection makes it safer. But the not falling off is part of the chain. So start on routes that you can you are unlikely to fall on




I'll i can say is that last Sunday I watched my son lead a V diff, a Severe and a hard Severe on Stanage. I then left my rack with him in Sheffield. I drove happy that he had managed the risks in a way that I was happy with, even though he still has loads to learn

Having been through the worried parent test I'd say that it is now possible to lead loads of UK routes with acceptable levels of risk. Some routes have higher levels of risks. But the sources of information are better now so again it is possible to manage risks

In reply to two_tapirs:

The real question for a second is do you tell the leader that his/her gear placed just before he/she stated the crux has just popped out, thereby psyching them up? Or do you say nothing, but then they might push themselves a bit too far thinking that if it goes wrong they think they've got that bit of gear in?

When this has happened to me a leader I think there is nothing more disconcerting to be committed and be told that it's just popped out........

In reply to two_tapirs:

I've been part of the coastguard team responsible for rescuing injured climbers in south Pembrokeshire for the past two years. I haven't kept strict count of how many climbing incidents I've attended in that time - somewhere between 6 and 10. But I do know that every one of them was the result of one or more pieces of gear ripping out.

So I would advise you to take time to learn how to place reliable gear, and not to climb on into territory in which you are not comfortable unless you are certain that your gear is well placed.

In reply to two_tapirs:

I placed 11 bits of gear(incl 2 rusty pegs) on Flashdance (E3 5c) (E35c) a couple of years back and as it rained I abseiled back down to retrieve the gear as my second didn't fancy it. Shocked to find that all bar the rusty pegs & 2 runners literally fell out. The 2 good runners were at the bottom and right at the top. So much for micro-nuts in limestone. Frightening in retrospect!

In reply to John2:

That's interesting to know. It was worth reading the thread for that.

In reply to John2:


But you definitely won't have any record of the number of leader falls which have been safely held by gear over the same period...

In reply to Jamie B:

What is interesting to know is what causes the majority of incidents. You can then worry about that, rather than about things that don't cause many incidents, and thus focus your safety thinking more effectively. If gear ripping causes the majority of climbing accidents (not saying it does), then this is the thing worth worrying about (even if it only happens occasionally) rather than whether you tie a left or right handed bowline/the alignment of the moon/exactly how many kN the belay device holds...

In reply to Trangia:


...when things go quiet down below. Or you hear a nervous shout of 'just keep going!', or 'can you get anything in?'

Thinking about it I've only witnessed one serious leader fall. Young lad on an e3 . Gear all ripped and he hit the deck, breaking a lot of bones and lucky to get away with it... Sticks in one's mind.

In reply to two_tapirs:

Anyone mentioned getting the belayer stood close in?

I have seen ground falls in the peaks and wye Valley and a good few near misses in Avon Gorge when the gear strips ground up because the belayer is too far out. If the last runner is dodge then it's a ground fall with all the gear unzipped from below. Indoors and on bolts it's not so much of an issue and belayers often stand back because their necks get tired. Gear doesn't like 45 degree upward forces. Trad rule - never pass a thread. Even a flimsy one will stop the rope tensioning out and guarantee a downward load on the rest.

In reply to two_tapirs:

I've not been climbing for that long, but I'd say that gear never "just pops out". Most of it's carefully designed, and super strong. It does come out - but there's always a reason for this - e.g.:

With nuts and hexes:
1. Poor placement
2. Not seated sufficiently
3. Shallow placement (e.g. flared notch in rock)
4. Rock movement (e.g. flakes that 'give' slightly, allowing gear to release)
5. Rock failure
6. Rope drag.

This last is a key factor, I think: your rope tends to pull gear slightly upward and outwards; aggressively pulling up a tight rope, or rope drag, can unseat gear. E.g. Often gear pops when you pull up all the spare rope between you and your second (important to remember on traverses!).

As for cams:

1. Movement/rotation of cams (e.g. again by rope drag) can release them
2. Shallow or tenuous placements
3. Under or uneven camming
4. Not being oriented in the direction of force (so that force rotates)
5. No friction on rock, e.g. because wet, dirty, frozen or... otherwise frictionless.

So, runners shouldn't "pop" if you:

1. Place and seat them well
2. Check the rock carefully
3. Check the direction of pull carefully
4. Avoid rope drag
5. Extend your runners properly

Of course, there'll always be some "iffy" placements, that you put in because there's nothing else, or in less than ideal circumstances, and some that look good but aren't (e.g. the huge block that wobbles; the greasy crack). So, you try not to rely on one piece of gear...

C

In reply to C Witter:

Comprehensive answer.

One point you perhaps did not highlight is the direction of pull.

Otherwise good placements can be useless if the belayer is standing too far out from the crag, typically on a short one pitch route.

Also can happen if say, the leader traverses left to a right facing corner crack from the stance.

In reply to Rick Graham:



Amen to that.

My mate (who places great gear) had all bar the top piece zip out at Millstone in the Plexity area because his belayer was standing 3m out. We all spent an anxious time watching him sort out while a long way up on the solitary remaining gear.

I spend a lot of time saying "can you move in a bit" to inexperienced belayers on trad.....

In reply to Babika:


After assessing my gear, I spend a lot of time saying "can you move in a bit" to experienced belayers on trad.....

This thread reminded me of this: youtube.com/watch?v=gvy4hUFuJiY& my best ever belaying experience.

In reply to rgold:






+1

In reply to Ram MkiV:

3 times and it's still funny. Good one

In reply to two_tapirs:

Thanks everyone for taking the time to respond; there's some really great advice here, including some stuff that is really simple to get my head around and apply. Also a lot has been posted that puts me at ease more, so thanks again- really appreciate it.

In reply to Mark Bannan:

sorry I meant 500 trad pitches of V Diff to E1!

In reply to two_tapirs:

My experience of holding big leader falls (and there were many) before c. 1972 was that a huge number of runners would typically pop. The gear really was just so inferior. The main problem was that the first Clog nuts (which themselves were a breakthrough) had wire that was just too stiff.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

So what is the OP supposed to do with this pearl of wisdom? Transport themselves back to 1972?

In reply to Helen Bach:
The question was about trad gear. So I thought it might be of some historic interest to mention how trad gear, and particularly small nuts, has improved.

In reply to two_tapirs:

I'm pretty new to Trad having only started a couple of years ago, I had a lot of gear just fall out when I first started - mainly just due to bad placement. Nowadays I find you know if the piece is dodgy and is likely to pull under rope drag, but sometimes it's just what you have and if it stays until the next good piece that's enough.

When do I find this is most likely to happen, when you are rushing and don't have time to work on your placement - e.g. climbing at your limit pumped or climbing easy stuff and your being lazy.

Isn't the question a little bit like say "do cars often crash?" - perhaps asking "when does gear pop out?" might be the right question

In reply to two_tapirs:

It used to happen to me a lot when I was a lot newer to leading. Sometimes it was poor placement, sometimes not extending properly, my (also inexperienced) second standing too far away from the crag and putting strain on the lower placements, or a couple of occasions of kicking it as I climbed past. It's scary when it happens but you get better at it over time. As has been said, if you keep away from the top of your grade for a while until you get more experienced at placing gear you're less likely to be in a situation where you're placing fear gear, which you often don't think through properly. You'll also avoid a fall onto gear which might not have been placed properly, resulting in injury. Enjoy the course!

In reply to two_tapirs:

Depends on the climber. I can do a route and not have a single piece pop/come loose. A guy I climb with ( I try to avoid doing this) can do the same route and have 50% of his gear placements be iffy! Placing gear soundly is a skill that should be learned and practiced.
Make sure you place gear before you need it so you can be in a solid place to do so. Only rarely should you have to stop mid-move to make a placement.
This is of course coming from an E1 or lower leader, at the moment. E2 is on the near horizon.

In reply to two_tapirs: IM me on Facebook peak athlete climbing. Glad to help.