UKC

Tody's Wall?

I must have spent a couple of hours at a packed Froggatt today watching numerous climbers, all brave and many bumbling, attempt the mounting of the block. And about half as many suitors for the crux layoff/rockover. It was fascinating how many different approaches and techniques were essayed. Some wonderful belly flops took the prize for giving the most entertainment.

I never got on it myself owing to the huge queues. I wish I had because the penalty was to find myself on Broken Crack. Gulp!! And I thought I was steady at VS!!.

In reply to BnB:
Yes, Valkyrie (the Roaches one).
Especially when a novice second is trying the move off the flake with both ropes looping away under their feet

In reply to BnB:

Ive often stopped for a quick break by Central Crack (VS 5a) at Brimham when walking by.

In reply to BnB:
Telescope tunnel at birchen.
its only mod but if you're over equipped. ....

In reply to BnB:

Broken Crack is a right pig at VS. good work.

In reply to BnB:


I suspect I was one of them.

In reply to BnB:
while seconding i lay on the block, then as i tried reaching up i rolled off it then because the ropes rapped round me i then spun the other way!

btw browns mantle is quite fun to watch people on!

In reply to BnB:

The start of Hollybush Gully at Birchen is always good for a laugh. I never tire of seeing people grapple with that one. It varies from impossible to a hell of a desperate thrutchy struggle to relatively easy if you know the secret to doing it. Fortunately I was once shown how to do it by a well known Birchen regular.

In reply to BnB:

Maybe not quite the same, but I swear I shall make a short video film one day of people trying to get onto the lions in Trafalgar Square.

Made all the more entertaining but the garb of participants (high heels, dresses, flip flops...you name it) and the strutting young men in skinny jeans who think it will be easy but it spits them off and they have to be pushed or pulled by their mates.

In reply to Kevster:


Haha. I tried that once. My wife was belaying.
First I took off my helmet.
Then I took off my bandolier
Then I removed all the quick draws from my harness.
Then I removed the harness.
Then after another 20 minutes grunting, squirming, wriggling I gave up realising I couldn't remove the extra stone around my middle.
My missus was not amused after standing watching my pathetic struggles for nearly 1 hour.

In reply to planetmarshall:

How did it go? If you got it clean then I didn't see your effort. I'm going to sneak back for a secret midweek assault.

In reply to deacondeacon:


My effort was a gibbering thrash. The route obviously is VS on account of the gear but why is it so bloody hard?

In reply to BnB:

Could BAW's Crawl be a contender?

In reply to BnB:

Desperation crack at Brimham is always worth a spectate. Always the potential for grovelling and potential loss of clothes

In reply to BnB:

You do know you've ruined your chances of the onsight...?

In reply to Euan McKendrick:

In the current guidebook description for Every Man's Misery at Burbage South:
"A climb that could easily undress you."

In reply to captain paranoia:


Watching the discomfort of most pretenders this afternoon, I'll take all the beta I can get

In reply to BnB:

The flop around the jammed boulder at the start of Martello Buttress at Stanage can be a good one to watch.

In reply to BnB:

Well I'd done 'Tobycade' before, so it wasn't a true onsight, but even then I didn't actually find surmounting the block that hard. The next move on the other hand... I'm not sure for how long I was perched on that block, trying to commit to the move. It's not like it's easily reversible if you don't fully commit to it, either...

In reply to BnB:

The final pitch of DOWH if the second is a bit shaky is great fun.

In reply to lummox:


But you might get seasick watching progress from your boat.

In reply to BnB:

surely the sloth has got to be in there as well....

In reply to BnB:

Eh ?

In reply to lummox:

Isn't it by the sea?

In reply to BnB:

It is indeed but you get a better view of the shake,rattle and rolling from the side of the zawn.

In reply to lummox:

Never done it. Definitely one to tick. Or maybe just spectate as I'm a bumbly

In reply to BnB:

Get someone to lead you on it. Just make sure you don't fall off on the last pitch...

In reply to BnB:

Scratch arête(the overlap bit) or start of groove above (idwal).

In reply to lummox:

I don't remember the gear on the second pitch doing much for the second either....

I nominate Long John at Bowden, it's good for a chat too, as the difficulty is getting off the ground.

In reply to BnB:

Flying Buttress Direct and Peapod are always worth a spectate. Unfortunately I've never seen anyone having difficulty with Tody's, maybe I just need to loiter for longer

In reply to BnB:

Varjo (n6-) with a measly grade of FIN 6- means that quite a few people think they can climb it... Not that many flashes or OS though, but lots of swearing...

In reply to BnB:


It's about 3 mtrs tall! You're a tall chap, surely you do a couple of jams and its all over?

Actually, I did think it was steep but fine, but I do like cracks where just straight on jamming is the most obvious approach. Playing to strengths and all that.

In reply to BnB:

I always used to enjoy watching people flail through the top out on Right Unconquerable. Not that I exactly made it look pretty either

In reply to BnB:

Helfenstein's Struggle Helfenstein's Struggle (HVD 4a)

'only' HVDiff

In reply to BnB:

I've never been disappointed when walking by Flying Buttress Direct; the best performance has to be a friend who took the classic fall, got his ropes twisted when he pulled back on, and did a one-armed hang while desperately trying to untangle the ropes before falling off the next move from being pumped senseless.

In reply to BnB:

Verandah Buttress on Stanage is always enertaing to watch at HVD 5b!!!!

In reply to Kevster:

We gave Telescope Tunnel HD 3c in the definitive Froggatt guide and our grades are explicitly for people who have the technical skills. For the overequipt and underskilled it may well be harder than Tody's Wall. The only moderate sense it ever had was as a moderately nasty sandbag.

In reply to Offwidth:

Really (also are we talking about the same route - the Telescope Tunnel I know of is at Birchin)? I'm the very definition of a scaredy cat, and and found it very amenable as a solo, to the point where I was doing laps on it as it's such a fun little route. I didn't find it technical in the slightest, though I can imagine there'd be obvious difficulties for the larger climber.

In reply to tehmarks:
Yes really... checked with the keen locals and numerous others. Its slightly harder than modern grades for classic Diff chimneys and its awkward, a little precarious and might be serious if you slip part way as you rotate into the angled narrowing. You may be thinking of the route just right from the same start (Captains Crawl, M). As a reference we gave Hollybush Gully VD 4b (the start of Powder Monkey). As for non threatening for a scaredy cat: any experienced grit climber who can't solo properly graded fully enclosed VD chimneys should be ashamed.

In reply to Offwidth:

It was definitely Telescope Tunnel that I did. Maybe I need to up my soloing grade!

In reply to lummox:


Not when your freezing your nuts off on a belay in the queue behind them, it's not...

In reply to BnB:

Valkyrie at the Roaches can be good value.

"I'm just a puppet on a string..."

In reply to BnB:

Sapper at Bowles is fun to watch as well. You can lie on the grass and offer unhelpful comments and confusing advice to the poor person thrutching their way through the hole at the top. A proper re-birthing experience.

Nice comments on the climb in logbooks section Sapper (5b) Clinger obviously didn't appreciate the climbs finer points. And actually the rest of the climb is rather nice.

btw I seconded Tody's wall last year and, rather than congrats on mounting the block, I got barracked for using a knee (cough, knees) !

In reply to Slarti B:

Sounds similar to Helfensteins struggle. I need to take a look!

In reply to BnB:

Todys wall is an evil route I'll never do again, the first time resulted in a bad shoulder injury.

Broken crack is technically harder but not as pumpy as the file. Overall about the same difficulty I thought ( hard VS or mild HVS - I'd prefer the later to bring grit a bit more in to line with out areas crack cimbing where in most cases both of these would be HVS IMO)

In reply to Slarti B:

There's a reason I'm a climber and not a caver

I actually did think it was very nice climbing though - right up until the coffin-shaped grovel-on-your-back then udge your way upwards 'til you emerge from out of the hole like a particularly stubborn turd.

In reply to BnB:

Its normally worth a giggle watching beginner's climb lead leaning buttress crack Leaning Buttress Crack (VD)#overview . Very often see them belly flop the crux and not be able to easily then stand up again with legs waving in the air.

In reply to Babika:

My (then quite small) daughters were having trouble with these until I advised they took their shoes and socks off, after which they floated up...

In reply to CurlyStevo:


That's a good summary and comparison. I didn't get pumped at all on BC. But neither did I get off the ledge until I realised I might be there all night.

In reply to BnB:

I was there on Sunday too, people lining up to try! I was quite impressed by several attempts and amused by just as many. A wish list addition for me I think

In reply to BnB:
I always loved watching people try to lead Lorraine at Bowden Doors. Pretty much anyone trying to place gear in the flake below the jugs at the top would be doomed!

In reply to DaveHK:

I've stood under Lorraine on a non-climbing day and my first thought was "sandbag!!"

In reply to BnB: if you are tall enough there is a way of getting on the block elegantly, but I did the grovel method several times before I knew about it.

In reply to hazeysunshine:
Oh boy! Followed my skinny-as-a-rake mate up this during an soloing mission at Stanage. Ended up wedged in the hole at the top with my feet flailing in space, somehow made it through. Never again, even with a rope!

In reply to danm:


Ah happy memories ...

My climbing partner, not familiar with Stanage, based her choice of the route on the Grade - HVDiff. I expressed 'scepticism' (I looked at the name and the bloody squeeze of a chimney).

Viewing her legs from below reminded me of a beetle on its back.
She eventually required a toprope from a pair of gently heckling but ultimately kind Yorkshiremen

In reply to BnB:


It's not

In reply to Michael Gordon:

weird that most the uk votes give it HVS

In reply to CurlyStevo:


They're wrong.

In reply to BnB:

I have never been disappointed when walking by Flying Buttress Direct; the best performance has to be a friend who took the classic fall, got his ropes twisted when he pulled back on, and did a one-armed hang while desperately trying to untangle the ropes before falling off the next move from being pumped senseless!

In reply to DaveHK:

The uk grading system is based on the view of the many rather than the few.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Its not. Its based on the experience of guide book writers who may chose to draw on the call of the mob - or not.

In reply to GrahamD:

Less so now a days. Take rockfax / ukc for example the votes of the many are affecting the grading of routes in the rockfax guides.

The idea behind the UK grading is that the grade represents an average user experience of the difficulty of the route.

In reply to DaveHK:


We did this in 1968 when first climbing VSs, on the same day as doing the Direct on the Mot, and there's no indication in my logbook that we found it to be other than VS. (Just says 'Short, hard, enjoyable pitches.')

In reply to CurlyStevo:

It's benchmark VS 5a. Short crux, safe, too shortlived for HVS.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


A fair bit of travelling there!

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Well even if that's true, give it a decade or two more grade inflation and it will be E1 in any case :P

In reply to Michael Hood:

Yes there is a elegant way to mount the block if tall, a simple ***** on the ***** when holding the top of the block pull and you can easily reach the big holds above then its simple foot up and stand and ta dah! .

I always like Valkyrie (Roaches), the potential for poor rope work leading to "technical" problems and the ever present conundrum presented by lack of knowledge of the hidden foot hold often makes for an entertaining spectacle.

Kinky Boots at baggy point, especially if the person leading is short, its their first ascent, and there is a decent swell, perfect for a group bet on how long they take to commit to the fall across the zawn. I am 6ft 2 and I thought about it for a good few minutes before letting gravity take over.

In reply to DaveHK:


I once had to walk away unable to watch someone who hadn't placed any gear and seemed doomed.

In reply to DrIan:


Oh yes - most entertaining! Very active where I was there - a bit like hanging over the top of the world's biggest top-loading washing machine. My second was not long of limb

In reply to BnB:

Sifta's Quid, on Roaches Lower Tier. I don't know the grade, and I don't know how long it took me to get through that damn tunnel, but all I do know is that it was light when I went in and dark when I popped out of the other end. Afterwards my belayer and other friend who was there as a cheerleader told me that most of the time I wasn't being properly belayed because they were both laughing so much at the noises coming from the tunnel.

In reply to CurlyStevo:



Except there aren't any average users. I suggest that the 'vote' of someone who has very little experience of what constitutes a benchmark VS nationally and has only ever climbed a few soft touch VS grit routes is worthless compared with that of an experienced climber and shouldn't sway how a route gets graded.

In reply to GrahamD:

.... the consequence of that is bordeline HS/VS classic routes at Stanage get nearly mid-grade VS averages and knarly VS climbs on unpopular crags often get barely above mid-grade VS averages, despite being a full grade harder. The first set gets huge numbers with loads from those inexpereinced at VS; then to make things worse, confirmation bias works in opposite directions. I can estimate some grades to the nearest 1/6th of a grade for routes that have a good number of UKC votes and knowing what and where the route is (without having climbed it).

In reply to GrahamD:

Grade inflation is fine, as I get slowly more bimbly, the grades go up so I don't need to dent the ego by dropping the grade.

In reply to Kevster:

You are a mere youth, Kev

In reply to Offwidth:

Which sort of confirms what I said - the real grade is judged by experienced guidebook writers, yourself included.