This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Hi all.
I'm looking for an all-purpose rope for general mountaineering. I like pure climbing, but being free and self-sufficient in the mountains is what I'm always going enjoy most - being able to get from A to B by any means necessary (within reason!). In practice, this means routes up to and including 'Dificile'. I also like travelling as light as possible (don't we all), so weight is a major consideration.
I'm trying to decide between a thin single rope (like the 8.5 mm Beal Opera) and a similar or even thinner half-rope. My trusted belay device, the ATC Guide, will probably baulk at ropes much thinner than 8 mm (although experience to the contrary would convince me otherwise), so that sets some kind of lower limit to thickness. I suppose that along with weight, durability is what I'm most concerned with here - are there halves with thickish sheaths? I have a long, sturdy rope already, so the second one needn't double up for sport climbing.
Another consideration is length. Do you experienced folks have opinions on how often the extra 10 m of a 60 m rope make the difference between being able to retreat by rappel and not (on an AD to D route, for example), or having enough for a crevasse rescue when travelling in a party of three?
I'm looking for an all-purpose rope for general mountaineering. I like pure climbing, but being free and self-sufficient in the mountains is what I'm always going enjoy most - being able to get from A to B by any means necessary (within reason!). In practice, this means routes up to and including 'Dificile'. I also like travelling as light as possible (don't we all), so weight is a major consideration.
I'm trying to decide between a thin single rope (like the 8.5 mm Beal Opera) and a similar or even thinner half-rope. My trusted belay device, the ATC Guide, will probably baulk at ropes much thinner than 8 mm (although experience to the contrary would convince me otherwise), so that sets some kind of lower limit to thickness. I suppose that along with weight, durability is what I'm most concerned with here - are there halves with thickish sheaths? I have a long, sturdy rope already, so the second one needn't double up for sport climbing.
Another consideration is length. Do you experienced folks have opinions on how often the extra 10 m of a 60 m rope make the difference between being able to retreat by rappel and not (on an AD to D route, for example), or having enough for a crevasse rescue when travelling in a party of three?
In reply to Jonny:
A half rope will be more durable than a skinny single at the same diameter - generally for durability the half rope will have a higher fraction of sheath, while the single will need a thicker core and thinner sheath in order to pass the more stringent single rope fall tests. If it's for general mountaineering, you shouldn't be falling on it (if all goes to plan) so the reduced 'fall' durability of the rope is much less important than the 'abrasion' durability. A single undamaged strand of half rope should take even a full-on fall factor 2 mega-whipper quite happily at least once.
A half rope will be more durable than a skinny single at the same diameter - generally for durability the half rope will have a higher fraction of sheath, while the single will need a thicker core and thinner sheath in order to pass the more stringent single rope fall tests. If it's for general mountaineering, you shouldn't be falling on it (if all goes to plan) so the reduced 'fall' durability of the rope is much less important than the 'abrasion' durability. A single undamaged strand of half rope should take even a full-on fall factor 2 mega-whipper quite happily at least once.
Post edited at 23:15
5
3
In reply to andrewmcleod:
I see, that does make sense.
In terms of the impact force ratings, what is the general recommendation for mountaineering ropes? Comparing, for example, two ropes of the same weight: the Beal Rando (8mm, 8.5 kN impact force, 37 g/m) and Beal Gully (7.3mm, 5.2 kN impact force, 36 g/m). I can see the advantages of a less dynamic line (for abseils, shortening crevasse falls), but for those (admittedly rare but inevitable) occasions when a fall will be taken on possibly dodgy protection, wouldn't you say that having the more dynamic rope will outweigh its disadvantages? Is a more dynamic rope really such a hindrance in the absence of falls?
I see, that does make sense.
In terms of the impact force ratings, what is the general recommendation for mountaineering ropes? Comparing, for example, two ropes of the same weight: the Beal Rando (8mm, 8.5 kN impact force, 37 g/m) and Beal Gully (7.3mm, 5.2 kN impact force, 36 g/m). I can see the advantages of a less dynamic line (for abseils, shortening crevasse falls), but for those (admittedly rare but inevitable) occasions when a fall will be taken on possibly dodgy protection, wouldn't you say that having the more dynamic rope will outweigh its disadvantages? Is a more dynamic rope really such a hindrance in the absence of falls?
In reply to Jonny:
Impact force is basically meaningless. But in your figures above, you're comparing numbers from the Rando as a twin vs. the Gully as a half, so don't do that.
Can I suggest you get advice from somewhere that's not an internet forum for this?
Impact force is basically meaningless. But in your figures above, you're comparing numbers from the Rando as a twin vs. the Gully as a half, so don't do that.
Can I suggest you get advice from somewhere that's not an internet forum for this?
In reply to climbwhenready:
I know the Rando is marketed as a twin rope, but that 8.5 kN figure is for half tests (80kg) so they should be comparable. Why do you say impact force is meaningless? Seems like a nice, well defined physical metric to me. Do you prefer % elongation numbers?
If it's because you guys are sick of this type of thread, I understand, but this and other fora are goldmines of information, with a bunch of very experienced people together in one place. I would prefer a consensus opinion here over the word of the spotty lad down at the outdoors shop any day.
I know the Rando is marketed as a twin rope, but that 8.5 kN figure is for half tests (80kg) so they should be comparable. Why do you say impact force is meaningless? Seems like a nice, well defined physical metric to me. Do you prefer % elongation numbers?
If it's because you guys are sick of this type of thread, I understand, but this and other fora are goldmines of information, with a bunch of very experienced people together in one place. I would prefer a consensus opinion here over the word of the spotty lad down at the outdoors shop any day.
2
In reply to Jonny:
No, that's when used as a twin. The Beal gully when used as a twin is 7.9 kN. These are what you should be comparing.
It's a beautiful physical metric, but it doesn't tell you very much about the rope in a real world scenario! What exactly are you concluding from the 0.6 kN difference between these two ropes?
> I know the Rando is marketed as a twin rope, but that 8.5 kN figure is for half tests (80kg) so they should be comparable.
No, that's when used as a twin. The Beal gully when used as a twin is 7.9 kN. These are what you should be comparing.
> Why do you say impact force is meaningless? Seems like a nice, well defined physical metric to me. Do you prefer % elongation numbers?
It's a beautiful physical metric, but it doesn't tell you very much about the rope in a real world scenario! What exactly are you concluding from the 0.6 kN difference between these two ropes?
In reply to climbwhenready:
You're quite right about the 80 kg test being for twin ropes, and therefore about the figure for the Beal Gully. My mistake. And of course, now the difference in impact force is pretty marginal, and reading into it would certainly be pushing the test beyond its purview.
So what's the general preference for stretchiness in a mountaineering rope then?
You're quite right about the 80 kg test being for twin ropes, and therefore about the figure for the Beal Gully. My mistake. And of course, now the difference in impact force is pretty marginal, and reading into it would certainly be pushing the test beyond its purview.
So what's the general preference for stretchiness in a mountaineering rope then?
In reply to Jonny:
It's simply irrelevant in the great scheme of things (beyond "it's a dynamic rope"). Infinitely more important is how a) durable and b) heavy the rope is. And of course you can't get both...
(PS it would be good if people explained why they disliked my post?)
> So what's the general preference for stretchiness in a mountaineering rope then?
It's simply irrelevant in the great scheme of things (beyond "it's a dynamic rope"). Infinitely more important is how a) durable and b) heavy the rope is. And of course you can't get both...
(PS it would be good if people explained why they disliked my post?)
Post edited at 23:46
1
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Alright. I suppose I was convinced otherwise by the fact that there exist all sorts of 'glacier ropes' on the market (as long as and with the same dry treatment etc as the halves). Just a marketing thing, I suppose.
Re your dislikes, beats me. Perhaps they didn't see or understand the qualifier 'for rope of the same thickness', or perhaps surviving a mega-whipper on a half rope sounds like too much to believe? Polarising post indeed!
Alright. I suppose I was convinced otherwise by the fact that there exist all sorts of 'glacier ropes' on the market (as long as and with the same dry treatment etc as the halves). Just a marketing thing, I suppose.
Re your dislikes, beats me. Perhaps they didn't see or understand the qualifier 'for rope of the same thickness', or perhaps surviving a mega-whipper on a half rope sounds like too much to believe? Polarising post indeed!
In reply to Jonny:
has anyone mentioned rope length? thats a crucial factor in weight. For instance for the hornli ridge a single 30m max is fine (I have heard of people using less). But a rock route with lots of abs you may need double 60M (for instance east face of the requin)
For general mountaineering up to about AD I find a single 40m is fine but you do need to know the length of abs in advance. Generally available on the internet
has anyone mentioned rope length? thats a crucial factor in weight. For instance for the hornli ridge a single 30m max is fine (I have heard of people using less). But a rock route with lots of abs you may need double 60M (for instance east face of the requin)
For general mountaineering up to about AD I find a single 40m is fine but you do need to know the length of abs in advance. Generally available on the internet
In reply to philipjardine:
No, you're the first to go there!
That's useful to know (that a 50+ is rarely needed for AD mountaineering routes). Any experience with crevasse rescue in a 2-3 man team, and what one needs left over on the tail for hauling, in the case of an entrenched rope? I imagine 10m or so would usually do it, and therefore with 10-12 m per man on a 3 man team a 48m rope should be enough, accounting for tie-ins.
No, you're the first to go there!
That's useful to know (that a 50+ is rarely needed for AD mountaineering routes). Any experience with crevasse rescue in a 2-3 man team, and what one needs left over on the tail for hauling, in the case of an entrenched rope? I imagine 10m or so would usually do it, and therefore with 10-12 m per man on a 3 man team a 48m rope should be enough, accounting for tie-ins.
Post edited at 14:25
In reply to Jonny:
I use 50 m of 9.5 mm "dry treatred" single rope for general mountaineering. For me it is good balance between weight, versatility, ease of handling, durability and safety.
Twin and half ropes are not suitable for leading on rock on a single strand. I don't know if they can snap midair but ropes do get damaged when loaded over a sharp edge. I does not happen every day but when it does you need a safety margin which comes with extra thickness or the second strand.
Very thin or very short ropes will also complicate self rescue.
Belay devices like ATC Guide are not designed to work with thin ropes used singly (the lower limit for ATC is 9 mm).
I use 50 m of 9.5 mm "dry treatred" single rope for general mountaineering. For me it is good balance between weight, versatility, ease of handling, durability and safety.
Twin and half ropes are not suitable for leading on rock on a single strand. I don't know if they can snap midair but ropes do get damaged when loaded over a sharp edge. I does not happen every day but when it does you need a safety margin which comes with extra thickness or the second strand.
Very thin or very short ropes will also complicate self rescue.
Belay devices like ATC Guide are not designed to work with thin ropes used singly (the lower limit for ATC is 9 mm).
Post edited at 20:02
1
In reply to PMG:
OK, although that doesn't sound like much of a compromise (unless the rope is 20 years old and you're comparing it to its contemporaries!). A tough 9.5 will be pretty durable even for sport climbing. The weight saving is only for its length.
Somethings have got to give to save weight, and one of them will surely be safety. This is alpine-style mountaineering after all!
I think you're probably right about the self-rescue, although there's a sense in which a thin rope is more likely to entrench and catch your fall, providing there are knots tied along its length. Makes rescue harder, but at least there's a rescue to be done!
The ATC Guide is good down to 7 mm when used with two strands (for abseiling, or for belaying with two halves), and in my experience it's fine with an 8.5 mil single.
OK, although that doesn't sound like much of a compromise (unless the rope is 20 years old and you're comparing it to its contemporaries!). A tough 9.5 will be pretty durable even for sport climbing. The weight saving is only for its length.
Somethings have got to give to save weight, and one of them will surely be safety. This is alpine-style mountaineering after all!
I think you're probably right about the self-rescue, although there's a sense in which a thin rope is more likely to entrench and catch your fall, providing there are knots tied along its length. Makes rescue harder, but at least there's a rescue to be done!
The ATC Guide is good down to 7 mm when used with two strands (for abseiling, or for belaying with two halves), and in my experience it's fine with an 8.5 mil single.
Post edited at 20:44
In reply to Jonny:
I had a thin (8.9 mm) single rope before this one. It did not last. May be bad luck.
I had a thin (8.9 mm) single rope before this one. It did not last. May be bad luck.
In reply to Jonny:
like most people i have never had to do crevasse rescue in anger. with 2 people i would aim for a good distance apart (20 metres plus) and prioritise distance apart over spare rope. Take a few coils and and put some knots in the rope. always seems much safer to have a big gap between 2 people and then keep the rope tightish.
with 3 its less of a problem as with any luck you should be able to stop a fall and get them out more easily. but 3 is much, much slower for climbing unless you are super efficient and the terrain is friendly.
like most people i have never had to do crevasse rescue in anger. with 2 people i would aim for a good distance apart (20 metres plus) and prioritise distance apart over spare rope. Take a few coils and and put some knots in the rope. always seems much safer to have a big gap between 2 people and then keep the rope tightish.
with 3 its less of a problem as with any luck you should be able to stop a fall and get them out more easily. but 3 is much, much slower for climbing unless you are super efficient and the terrain is friendly.
In reply to climbwhenready:
Where exactly would one find advice of this nature, if not on here?
-Manufacturers will always quote/advise base on their liability line.
-the BMC etc will probably give some good advice, but again, will always provide the super super safe, party line option...and I can't really imagine being able to email them the OPs query and get a straight answer from anyone.
-Every instructor or 'mountain professional' will have a different opinion on the subject, and be able to quote various sources to back themselves up.
At the end of the day, this forum is probably as good a source as anyone is going to find for a question like this.
> Can I suggest you get advice from somewhere that's not an internet forum for this?
Where exactly would one find advice of this nature, if not on here?
-Manufacturers will always quote/advise base on their liability line.
-the BMC etc will probably give some good advice, but again, will always provide the super super safe, party line option...and I can't really imagine being able to email them the OPs query and get a straight answer from anyone.
-Every instructor or 'mountain professional' will have a different opinion on the subject, and be able to quote various sources to back themselves up.
At the end of the day, this forum is probably as good a source as anyone is going to find for a question like this.
Post edited at 23:08
3
In reply to Jonny:
I think the sort of routes the op was asking about wouldn't really involve leading as such more roped together sort of ground and for that 8 to 8.5mm half rope is ideal imo. Bare in mind on rock a fall is very unlikely and on a glacier any diameter climbing rope is highly unlikely to get cut through. Have a search on here for posts by Jim Tit he's done lots of test of belay devices and ropes 8mm on an atc guide is pushing things too far for,a big fall by the way.
I think the sort of routes the op was asking about wouldn't really involve leading as such more roped together sort of ground and for that 8 to 8.5mm half rope is ideal imo. Bare in mind on rock a fall is very unlikely and on a glacier any diameter climbing rope is highly unlikely to get cut through. Have a search on here for posts by Jim Tit he's done lots of test of belay devices and ropes 8mm on an atc guide is pushing things too far for,a big fall by the way.
1
In reply to Jonny:
OK, so here's some kind of consensus so far:
- For a rope of given diameter, a half rope is more durable than a single, owing to its greater sheath proportion.
- A not-unreasonably-thin half rope should take at least one or two decent lead falls (provided it's rated for 5-10 falls as a half rope). For general mountaineering, that's plenty good enough (until those falls materialise). For short sections, it can always be doubled up.
- There exist cheap belay devices that can deal with single strands of 8 mm rope.
So regarding length: in the absence of knowledge about a specific route (except that it will be a big mountain), or number of team members (though probably two or three), are we agreed that a 40 m rope is likely to permit the vast majority of routes (if not with optimal efficiency), and be sufficient for a drop-loop crevasse rescue? Have we found the graaaaiiilll?
OK, so here's some kind of consensus so far:
- For a rope of given diameter, a half rope is more durable than a single, owing to its greater sheath proportion.
- A not-unreasonably-thin half rope should take at least one or two decent lead falls (provided it's rated for 5-10 falls as a half rope). For general mountaineering, that's plenty good enough (until those falls materialise). For short sections, it can always be doubled up.
- There exist cheap belay devices that can deal with single strands of 8 mm rope.
So regarding length: in the absence of knowledge about a specific route (except that it will be a big mountain), or number of team members (though probably two or three), are we agreed that a 40 m rope is likely to permit the vast majority of routes (if not with optimal efficiency), and be sufficient for a drop-loop crevasse rescue? Have we found the graaaaiiilll?
Post edited at 08:42
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Actually I can think of several scenarios climbing myself or friends where ropes have been damaged general mountaineering. A slip leading to a fall with the rope on a sharp edge, and abseiling issues are favourite.
Currently have 50m 8.5m mammut genesis for this, had to retire my last single rope due to.. sheaf damage!
Actually I can think of several scenarios climbing myself or friends where ropes have been damaged general mountaineering. A slip leading to a fall with the rope on a sharp edge, and abseiling issues are favourite.
Currently have 50m 8.5m mammut genesis for this, had to retire my last single rope due to.. sheaf damage!
In reply to Jasonic:
If I was worried about sharp edge rope damage (which I am as it is exactly what you should worry about) I would much rather have the option of doubling a half rope, or even using just one strand of a burly half rope, than one strand of a skinny single.
Am I completely wrong in thinking that using a single half (or even twin) rope is standard for Alpine mountaineering? (unless you are Ueli Steck and just bring 6mm cord, of course)
edit: this is informative.
http://stephdavis.co/blog/straight-from-the-mammoths-mouth-things-you-want-...
If I was worried about sharp edge rope damage (which I am as it is exactly what you should worry about) I would much rather have the option of doubling a half rope, or even using just one strand of a burly half rope, than one strand of a skinny single.
Am I completely wrong in thinking that using a single half (or even twin) rope is standard for Alpine mountaineering? (unless you are Ueli Steck and just bring 6mm cord, of course)
edit: this is informative.
http://stephdavis.co/blog/straight-from-the-mammoths-mouth-things-you-want-...
Post edited at 14:24
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Very informative, and nice to see a manufacturer being upfront about trade-offs in their ropes (and in everyone else's), and encouraging free-thinking about specific usage rather than being liability conscious.
Now for that length issue...
Very informative, and nice to see a manufacturer being upfront about trade-offs in their ropes (and in everyone else's), and encouraging free-thinking about specific usage rather than being liability conscious.
Now for that length issue...
Post edited at 15:57
In reply to Jonny:
Basically some D routes go up to around UK VS for these you are certainly going to need either a single or pair of half ropes. Half's would be best - I would probably go for 8mm over 8.5mm for the weight saving and definitely 60 metres - ive seen some euro routes rely on this (on in Croatia but still).
The mammut phoenix are great, hard wearing yet light and supple. Get a pair of DMM buggettes for belaying.
Basically some D routes go up to around UK VS for these you are certainly going to need either a single or pair of half ropes. Half's would be best - I would probably go for 8mm over 8.5mm for the weight saving and definitely 60 metres - ive seen some euro routes rely on this (on in Croatia but still).
The mammut phoenix are great, hard wearing yet light and supple. Get a pair of DMM buggettes for belaying.
In reply to Jasonic:
You seem to have misunderstood my point. I was saying on roped together rock routes a fall is unlikely and on a glacier
a rope is unlikely to get cut through - which is why for this level of alpine experience an 8 - 8.5mm half rope is ideal. Remember you need to balance added safety against increased weight, in the alps light is right!
I've also retired ropes due to sheath wear, in fact for my outdoor ropes that's the normal scenario as I don't tend to fall off much outside so flat sections in the rope are rare.
> Actually I can think of several scenarios climbing myself or friends where ropes have been damaged general mountaineering. A slip leading to a fall with the rope on a sharp edge, and abseiling issues are favourite.
> Currently have 50m 8.5m mammut genesis for this, had to retire my last single rope due to.. sheaf damage!
You seem to have misunderstood my point. I was saying on roped together rock routes a fall is unlikely and on a glacier
a rope is unlikely to get cut through - which is why for this level of alpine experience an 8 - 8.5mm half rope is ideal. Remember you need to balance added safety against increased weight, in the alps light is right!
I've also retired ropes due to sheath wear, in fact for my outdoor ropes that's the normal scenario as I don't tend to fall off much outside so flat sections in the rope are rare.
Post edited at 17:54
1
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Useful- interestingly a Mammut Dry 8.5mm half and 9.2mm single are exactly the same price!
http://www.needlesports.com/32618/products/mammut-revelation-dry-9-2mm-50m-...
One friend of mine uses a skinny 60m single plus a rap line on fairly technical climbs to TD+
Useful- interestingly a Mammut Dry 8.5mm half and 9.2mm single are exactly the same price!
http://www.needlesports.com/32618/products/mammut-revelation-dry-9-2mm-50m-...
One friend of mine uses a skinny 60m single plus a rap line on fairly technical climbs to TD+
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Elsewhere on the site
Alpine Conditions
This Alpine Conditions page gives a summary of what is being climbed at the moment, what is 'in' nick and what the prospects are...
Loading Notifications...