UKC

So iv been climbing a while now and just wondering how much your guys grade differs when leading indoor to top roping? as iv found I pump out so much quicker when on lead, so routes I know I can breeze on top rope suddenly become pump endurance fests. Am I the only one?

In reply to edhawk21:

My indoor toproping and leading grade usually differ by 2 grades, sometimes 3. You probably pump out quicker due to clinging on more tightly as the psychological factors about taking a fall come into play.

In reply to edhawk21:

Tends to be a bit of a gap.

On Top rope you aren't pausing to clip, which is a factor, also 'headgame' comes into it a bit more of lead so you might be subconsciously over-gripping and/or be generally more tense all round.

Theres no real solid rules that i'm aware of, but usually if your toproping a lead route you can knock roughly a grade off. (presuming this is indoors and your talking 5-6c)

In reply to Alyson:

I used to find there was a difference of around a grade (e.g. 6c vs bc), but I found it was all in my head. Once you get confident leading indoors and don't mind taking falls you should be able to lead anything you can top rope provided you aren't using the top rope as an aide.

In reply to edhawk21:


This means you are over gripping/stressed.

In reply to treforsouthwell:

yeh your probably right on that one. I guess I just need more practice to keep my cool when on lead.

In reply to edhawk21:

You'll find leading a little more pumpy because of the clipping in, keeping leading and your 'lock off' strength will improve and clipping in will become smoother & faster too, then there should be little difference in grades.

In reply to edhawk21:

are you climbing the same routes on top rope and lead?

leading's obviously pumpy-er, because you need to clip. particularly when you start because you need to learn to clip efficiently - body position, and just getting the clip to go in

but I think at my wall the lead routes are probably graded a bit tougher than the top rope routes - ie the top ropes are a bit soft

In reply to Donald82:

iv tried a couple of routes I have top roped before but struggled to get good clipping positions (didn't have to think about that before).

In reply to edhawk21:

Find lead climbing about a grade easier. Concentrate more and climb better.

In reply to treforsouthwell:


I know you're right. I get more nervous leading indoors than outdoors which makes no sense at all, and consequently the gap between my lead grade and toprope (or seconding) grade is greater indoors too. I need to take more falls and stop fearing them!

In reply to treforsouthwell:

Agree, Ive been working on my mental 'game' lately. I used to top rope harder routes before trying to lead them but have found if im warmed up and confident I can often flash a route on lead at the top end of my grade. And if I dont then taking falls is also good training!

In reply to edhawk21:

I top rope indoors about 6b/6b+ and have lead 6b's but more comfortable leading 6a+.
I find I climb better on lead, probably due to concentrating more and taking my time.
I've never fell outdoors on lead (probably due to playing it technically safe), but have fell plenty of times indoor and after the 2nd clip doesn't worry me, hurts a bit more but doesn't kill you!

In reply to edhawk21:

On a related comment. do route setter take into account clipping positions when setting lead routes? I.E. does and easy climb say a 5 or something get given a 6a grade if all the clipping positions are strenuous?

In reply to edhawk21:

Route setters usually put in a good hold to clip off. Go to the good hold and clip. That isn't the moment you can reach the clip on tiptoes! Sometimes clips are desperate, but that's real life, nothing unusual to find a sport route only goes when you can work out the best clip positions.

In reply to edhawk21:

One strategy I used to reduce this gap was to take the opportunity on top rope to 'pretend' lead. Eg: Find a good relaxed clipping position at the bolts / lock off and sometimes simulate clipping.

In reply to edhawk21:

I find it depends on the route and how much body repositioning is needed in order to balance / hold on to make the clip. If its an easy clip from a jug it makes little difference, if its a precarious clip from a crap hold its the difference between impossible and possible

In reply to edhawk21:

I find that my leading and top roping grades are about the same. I think that I actually climb much better when im leading and am more focussed and probably try hard. I also prefer not to have the rope above me in my way. Id much rather get stuck in on a lead than top rope.

In reply to edhawk21:
The grade is the grade is the grade. It can also depend on how you top rope. I see many novices indoors almost being winched up routes. Even with a reasonably taught rope you do get lots of subtle assistance that may not be obvious at the time. I find it quite amusing when they get down to the ground and walk around their mates saying they've just climbed a 6b or a 6c or some such nonsense. Certainly in trad, routes are graded for the lead, with sport it is mostly graded for the Redpoint but again the lead.

On trad if you second, say an E3,5c, it's reasonable to claim you have climbed a 5c but in no way have you climbed an E3. For myself I don't really think I've climbed a route unless I lead it, but that's my personal ethical stance.

Climbing wise I climb better when I lead but I do not find that there is a huge difference between the lead and the second especially on sport.

Al

In reply to Sammi:

I must say it feels like a more applicable skills to lead rather then top rope. My problem is that im disappointed in my own performance and frustrated on routes that I know I can do but find myself getting shot down as soon as I get one lead.

In reply to edhawk21:

Just wait until you try trad, the gap is likely to be even bigger

Al

In reply to GridNorth:
I do climb trad, but I don't have the same expectation of myself when it comes to trad because its a different ballgame. I'm quite happy leading Severe for a while I think, though id like to be a confident VS/HVS leader in the next year or so.

In reply to Mark Haward:

Yep - great advice. As an extension to this get a metre or so of old top and tie into that aswell a a top rope. Clip the dummy rope when on TR to simulate clipping.

In reply to edhawk21:
I came across a technique to remove the fear of falling recently. You get on something close to your lead limit (perhaps a grade or two below) then as you go past the 3rd clip or where there is no chance of hitting the deck, fall immediately after clipping. It can help remove that tenseness, makes the climbing more sustained too as you have to keep reclimbing sections. Only do this on a route that is atleast vertical thou.. It will help your partner practise catching your falls and improve the mutual trust too

In reply to ms26g10:

This technique is called "Clip - drop". The idea is that you increase the distance above the bolt as you gain confidence. It does seem to work quite well.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1838

Al

In reply to edhawk21:


Yes, clipping positions should be taken into account for lead routes. But clipping takes very little time once you get good at it, so you won't get much of an allowance!

In reply to GrahamD:

Well said!

I find that my grades are the same for the climbing that I am most suited to (slabs, corners, roof overhangs) but I find that I climb better on toprope for stuff I'm not so good at (crimps and continuously overhanging faces). Probably due to the fact that I am a bit of a pie-eater!

On trad, I climb better on the lead - the intense concentration is something I really enjoy.

In reply to edhawk21:

leading and seconding are physically similar.

I lead many grades (MVS, HVS, E1, E2 and E4) before I seconded them.

Top roping is physically easier as you are not stopping

Some once told me that seconding is way harder. You're not expected to stop. Gear placed for the leaders height and to protect their interests not yours, welded in nuts and deep cam placements, not expected to go up and down between a rest and a hard bit while you work it out, rope tugging you all over the shop and all for some to tell you that haven't really done it

In reply to edhawk21:

Unless you consider seconding on trad to be "top roping" my grades are much the same whether I lead or second. Sometimes I've found seconding even more pumpy, particularly where the leader has placed protection so embedded that you almost wish you had a kango hammer to extract it.....

In reply to edhawk21:

In the first few years there was always a couple of grades difference. Once I got more confident, started taking proper falls, my top rope and lead grade levelled and its pretty much the same for indoors and out.

In reply to edhawk21:

My best tr and lead grades are the same however in reality there is about half a + grade in it as top roping is slightly easier (on some routes more than others)