UKC

James McHaffie has continued his proactive streak of new-routing by making the first ascent of what could be Wales' hardest trad route yet on Dinas Mot in the Llanberis Pass. Dark Religion follows the slab left of the top pitch of Direct Route.

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In reply to UKC News:

Nice One!!

"Is there any unclimbed rock left in North Wales to keep James busy?!"

I could show him acres!

In reply to Urgles:


How about the wall next to Time is the Fire in Which We Burn (E7 6b) on Cadair Idris? Too hard for Martin Crocker, so Caff could be the man?

In reply to UKC News:

I thought Choronzon E10 (8b+) was the hardest trad' route in Wales?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/videos/play.php?i=2313

UKC calling Mawson's grading into question?

In reply to UKC News:

i dont wanna start a fight but calum said he thought it was E10

In reply to UKC News:

Fantastic looking bit of rock

In reply to UKC News: Not decrying James's achievement at all but this is really just a variation on Direct Route.

Are there any unclimbed big lines, I.e. multipitch, in Wales that are still unclimbed?

In reply to UKC News:

Great effort on a stunning bit of rock.

Could the editor or any users explain what a "proactive streak" is? I'm usually happy being active.

In reply to HStudierende:


Whenever it's used you can be certain that it's simply someone trying to make what they write sound better with no clue about the meaning of the words they're using. If you're new routing you are, by definition, being proactive.

In reply to Ally Smith:

Is there a gap between that and Brass Butterfly?

In reply to UKC News:


Ha! A non too subtle attempt to blow any future onsight!

In reply to Frank the Husky:

So Caff is in a bit of a proactive streak then??

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

So Caff is in a bit of a proactive streak then??

Does that mean he's a proactive streaker?

In reply to Duncan Campbell:

I'm currently in a very passive streak, which doesn't help much with getting up E9s! Maybe I should become retroactive and upgrade some of my E1s to E9.

In reply to HStudierende:
Since my original question has been negatively received, I think I should nuance it. As a non-native speaker and a languages graduate I am interested in semantics and my question was genuine. The author / assistant editor is a journalist and also a languages graduate but their choice of the word 'proactive' piqued my interest. If, as a student, I had used this word I believe my teachers / lecturers would have corrected me and suggested either active or productive:

- Productive streak: i.e. yielding many first ascents (e.g. House of Talons, Gravity Wave etc)
- Active streak: i.e. participating or engaging in a specified sphere of activity [ie climbing and FAs], esp. to a significant degree (c.f. all of James' FAs and repeats)

My understanding is that proactive is sadly not a convenient conflation of these words. Instead its meaning centres on anticipatory action. Arguments that 'if you're new routing you are, by definition, being proactive' seem somewhat tenuous and potentially totally amorphous. That is to say, what is one anticipating? The future of climbing? (if I did some HS FAs would that be proactive as it could just as easily be argued that the future of climbing is a mean average climbing grade of HS?) The eventual erosion of rock into a non-climbable state (hence his ascent is before that has happened)? Hence my question of whether some could explain what a proactive streak is.

I have seen many job applications where the word proactive has been used when applicants basically mean 'I did stuff' or was active. James' ascent looks awesome and I am not questioning it in any way. Languages are diachronic and vernaculars thus change, but as a non-native it baffles me why words whose meanings are accurate and adequate are replaced (by journalists!) with ones that ostensibly have a totally different and ill-fitting meaning.

In reply to HStudierende:

If English isn't you're first language then hats off!

"My understanding is that proactive is sadly not a convenient conflation of these words. Instead its meaning centres on anticipatory action. Arguments that if "you're new routing you are, by definition, being proactive" seem somewhat tenuous and potentially totally amorphous."

In reply to HStudierende:
This link gives more insight into the modern use of the term proactive.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=proactive

This seems to be a case of popular usage altering a meaning which was originally more specific.

I think it is often used to mean someone is being especially active or is making extra effort in their activeness.

However it is expressed this spate of new routing is remarkable.

In reply to Michael Simpson: I loved this bit from the urban dictionary

One is 'active' as opposed to being 'passive' or 'reactive'. One is 'proactive' as opposed to 'speaking English'.

In reply to Michael Hood:

yes there seems to be a bit of a subtext going on in the hashtags and related terms in that entry.

In reply to HStudierende:

I agree. 'Pro-active' to me would tend to mean doing something to ensure results later (or to stop something happening later). So training in advance of a climbing trip could be seen as pro-active. But doing some great routes on the climbing trip would not be.

My guess is the word was used mistakenly when the word 'productive' was meant.

In reply to UKC News:

Brilliant name - will be iconic. Why is it that the key figures in our game have also an ability to bless their routes with evocative names?

Inspiring to young and old.

In reply to HStudierende:
You're right. The usage of 'proactive' to mean 'productive' is just illiterate, an example of people who don't know what words mean using them because they sound a bit like a word they once heard. See, e.g. 'diffusing' tension. Of course, in time the usage becomes 'correct' as the overwhelming majority start to make the same mistake, language being a living thing and all. At the moment though 'proactive' does not mean what the author of this piece thinks it does.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Man alive - there is nuance in language, not just right and wrongness. As I read it "proactive" was used to emphasize the creativity of McHaffie's recent efforts on new lines - clearly a different kind of activity to climbing routes that others have established, which could be considered somewhat reactive. The most straightforward meaning of proactive - tending to initiate change rather than reacting to events - is not so far away from this. Yes, if the author had been more traditional with her language she'd have used "creative" or "productive", but it's not hard to understand the distinction that she was making, and therefore rather presumptive of you to regard such usage as "illiterate" rather than creative. If you become overly conservative about language you just might start looking stupid yourself - like an elderly schoolmaster whose charges have outgrown him.

Anyway, if we were less pedantically critical about the language used in news reports on this site, we might find we got more news. I hate to think of the authors checking and re-checking and re-re-checking what they've written just to be sure it will pass the grumpy old man test. Grumpy old men really aren't that important (and I speak as one myself).

Thanks for the news report Ms Berry: don't let the bastards grind you down.

In reply to Michael Hood:



I always thought proactive was a word used by David Brent management types to make them sound superior without actually knowing anything about anything.

Andy F

In reply to Wicamoi:
No, the word is just wrongly used in this context. It doesn't mean 'productive' or 'to initiate change'.

In reply to UKC News:

Dear UKC,

I would like to suggest that you deliberately insert a misspelling, misnomer or grammatical error into every news article, as an experiment to see just how much of a froth your house pedants can work up. Then you can have some sort of roundup - maybe there could be some sort of get-together in a room where they can hug and cry etc.

Thanks.

P.S. Did someone climb a thing?

In reply to Wicamoi: You mean presumptuous, not presumptive. Presumptive means a diagnosis based on presumptions rather than facts.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Words change their meanings, as you know, and they've got to do it some place. Why not here? Surely the true the test for effective communication is not whether it passes arbitrary rules, but whether it is easily understood. I doubt any of the people over-reacting to the use of the word "proactive" had any difficulty understanding its meaning in context.

In reply to John2:

You are quite correct - a useful distinction, thanks.

In reply to Wicamoi:


Because, if "proactive" is allowed to come to mean simply "active" or "productive" then it actually becomes redundant and the language, as a result, less rich (unless a new word is found to replace it). Yes, a language evolves, sometimes enriching it, but at other times, as here, impoverishing it and it seems to me perfectly reasonable to me to resist change when this is the case.

Other examples are the way "athlete" has come to mean pretty well anyone doing anything active - virtually meaningless in fact - leaving a gap in the language for somebody who actually does athletics. And "boulder", now seems to mean either a lump of rock or an actual boulder problem - if I say that I found a new boulder, it is not clear which I mean; the distinction has been lost and the language is less rich.

"Send", on the other hand, is fine because there is never any ambiguity in meaning - if anything the language is enriched.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I share your opinion about all those words (including that "send" is a useful one). Resisting change by example and argument is fine. My objection is to people lording it over others with their efforts to police the arbitrary language rules of the status quo that existed whenever it was that they stopped learning the language. Appeal to 'right' and 'wrong' in language is infantile: there is only more common or less common usage. New usage and meanings rise and fall on their merits, and things that you and I may find impoverishing may be enriching to others. There is no golden age but one's youth - and we do not all share that at the same time.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I would say your 'boulder' example is just another language misuse, i.e. wrong. When used as a verb it makes sense but for the noun unless a large rock is meant then folk should use the word 'problem'.

In reply to Wicamoi:


I guess that depends on your take of 'effective communication'! I'm not sure whether if something is easily understood should be the only consideration. The article could just as well said his presumptive streak of new routing and the basic meaning in context would be understood. I could say I drove my carp to work today and most would guess what I meant.

In reply to Andy Moles:



No, Andy. The route was given to Caff. It says so in the headline.

In reply to Robert Durran:


When one 'sends' something, one err... climbs it, does one not?

Or, in vulgar parlance, (mostly) from the past - "I did it."

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Whether it comes from ascend or a variation of dispatch etc (I think the latter), I guess the term is fairly unique in that it just refers to the successful ascent after working the thing. Particularly regarding bouldering I suppose since you've already got redpointing and headpointing for sport and trad.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Wrong, ambiguous, confusing and deeply annoying (though not as much so as "bloc") - but very widespread usage.

In reply to Mick Ward:


Yes, you could say it is a synonym, but my point was that there is no meaning lost or confused by its usage.
I would in fact argue that "send" usually implies a certain style though - a send, for instance, will never involve any dogging*.

*That is dogging in the sense of hanging on the gear.

In reply to UKC News:

What a fantastic thread. I thought I was going to read about a hard first ascent and the usual load of congratulations in the comments after it but this is much more interesting.
Keep up the good work chaps

In reply to pec:

What a fantastic thread. I thought I was going to read about a hard first ascent and the usual load of congratulations in the comments after it but this is much more interesting.
Keep up the good work chaps

They're probably the sort of people, that as children, played with the packaging as opposed to the actual present...

In reply to Wicamoi:

>The most straightforward meaning of proactive - tending to initiate change rather than reacting to events - is not so far away from this.

Yeah, but even if you allow that then it's just bad writing, isn't it - as someone said, on that basis all new routing is proactive.

jcm

In reply to pec:

Quite. I wonder if forums for grammatical pedants are full of dissections of first ascents.

In reply to pec:


Indeed. UKC at it's best - threads can go off in such weird and wonderful and interesting directions.

In reply to John2:


This reminds me of something I was wondering about - when did "fora" get abandoned as the plural of forum?

In reply to pec:

It's probably a backhanded compliment to Caff that he can put up a new E9 and it's considered less remarkable than someone misusing the word "proactive".

In reply to Robert Durran:

You did ask - 'The plural of forum is usually spelled forums; the plural fora (as in the original Latin) is chiefly used when talking about a public square in an ancient Roman city' - OED

In reply to Robert Durran:


Your apostrophe in it's is incorrect. The apostrophe is only used in it's when you're using a contraction of it is.

In reply to tony:

Nonsense. 'It's been a great week' - it's a contraction of 'it has'.

In reply to John2:

In that case 'its' is a possessive though and doesn't take an apostrophe. It's = it is/has

In reply to tony:


Apologies - just a typo.

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Buuuuurn!

In reply to Ramblin dave:


Not in any way less remarkable. Just less to discuss (so it seems.......)

In reply to Robert Durran:


So a post gets three dislikes for simply agreeing with a post that gets seven likes - very odd!

In reply to John2:


So do we only retain Latin plurals when the exact meaning has not changed or evolved?

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

That is also nonsense. In that context has is an auxiliary verb.

In reply to John2:

I was referring to Robert's "UKC at its best," not your "It's been a great week.' Sorry, wasn't very clear!

In reply to Robert Durran:

I think the point is that the word forum in its modern meaning of a place for discussion is widely used by people with no knowledge of Latin, and therefore by force majeure the plural form which the majority use has become the accepted usage.

In reply to Robert Durran:


I did wonder - not like you to make a mistake like that.

In reply to John2:


You're right - I should have said the apostrophe is only used in it's when you're using a contraction of it is or it has.

It does remain the case that the use of an apostrophe in it's as a possessive is incorrect.

In reply to John2:

Whereas people using more technical words such as phylum or polyhedra probably had a decent classical education?
I am struggling to think of a latin plural still in common everyday use........

In reply to Robert Durran:

Data.

In reply to Ramblin dave:


I think that probably only survives because the singular is never (or hardly ever?) used. We talk about data points - shouldn't that really be singular "datum point"?

In reply to Robert Durran:

I can give you a Greek one - phenomena. Well done James, by the way.

In reply to John2:

Excellent! I wonder whether phenomenons would be considered wrong though. Funny how we don't talk about electricity pyla though - case of the original greek meaning having evolved?

In reply to Robert Durran:

pudendum / pudenda

In reply to Robert Durran:

Scientific journal proofreaders care ('the data are rubbish', never 'the data is rubbish').

In reply to Robert Durran:

Media? One medium, many forms of which has become media? Interestingly sometimes used as a collective noun in English. The French have done the inexcusable "les médias" with a horrible double plural! I prefer a singular with an -s to a plural with an -s! But I might be mistaken and as per usual on a forum entry, I have obviously not cross-referenced my statement...t'would spoil some people's fun!

I have a big appetite and can eat many pizze. I guess it all depends on a persons' knowledge of the language those words are borrowed from. I couldn't make any comment on German, Russian and any asiatic language!

BTW: awesome climbing from James...it seems it got somewhat lost in the thread

In reply to tony:


Indeed, its (in the possessive form) is the gender neutral form of his or hers which of course don't have apostrophes.
It's as in it is/has is a contraction and the apostrophe replaces the missing letters, the same for there's instead of there is etc.

In reply to French Erick:


We've done a similar thing with other imported words. A pet hate of mine is "paninis", panini is already plural, panino is the singular.

I can understand the error as most people don't speak any Italian but the often seen on menus "panini's" is inexcusable. Panini's what?

In reply to Robert Durran:

What's wrong with 'bloc'? Are you scared the foreigners are taking over the english language? But I bet you use 'traverse' and 'arete' and eat curry...

In reply to olliebristol:


No, its the wankiness rather than the foreigness which I object to.

In reply to Robert Durran:

A bit like a group of Brits shouting 'Allez, allez' at a crag somewhere in Derbyshire?

In reply to jon:


Yes, unless it is done ironically of course.