UKC

What it the maximum length quickdraw generally accepted when redpointing and setting up hard routes to work before it gets a bit crazy as is classed as aidding? 120cm? Or a 60cm max? Interested

In reply to zimpara:

What does the length of your quickdraw have to do with aiding? You can have draws as long as you like! Just don't pull on them but climb the route free! But the length can be whatever you want, mainly people use longer ones to reduce rope drag

In reply to zimpara:

If you spent as much time climbing as posting on the forums.............

In reply to zimpara:

If you feel that a particular clip is too necky, preplacing a long extender to enable clipping from a lower position can help (put a short one on as well). Some may say that a lead done that way is a little flawed, but hey, who cares what they think?

In reply to zimpara:


And I'm interested to know how much time you spend redpointing.

Mick

In reply to zimpara:

Measure the height from the bolt to the ground. Divide by 2 (ish) = widely accepted maximum length.

In reply to zimpara:

The justification for extended quickdraws is that the bolt is in a bad place. Putting a longer quickdraw on is the same as if the bolt was placed a little lower. I don't think there's any limit but of course the longer the quickdraw the further the runout to the next bolt. On hard routes some bolts are so hard to clip it's sometimes easier to just skip them.

In reply to bpmclimb:
Or if it's just in a particularly hard to clip place and it's easier to clip from a bit lower down.

In reply to Mick Ward:

And I'm interested to know how much time you spend redpointing.

Zimpara has developed a new style of climbing. It's called nopointing which is essentially starting threads that are pointless. He's currently the best nopointer on UKC!

In reply to FactorXXX:

I think he's laying the ground-work for getting all of Ondra's ascents where he skipped a clip rescinded - presumably he would find that a more egregious crime than merely extending one.

In reply to zimpara:

To answer your question: use whatever length of draw or sling you want. Some people extend draws by a fair length when they're redpointing and have a reachy, awkward or intimidating clip. I've not used anything longer than maybe 3-4 draws long, but that was only one time, generally a double length draw is as long as I'd extend. Nomatter what you do though, someone will ultimately say it's 'cheating', as doing the run-out or making a higher clip is part of the route. Which I suppose is fair - either that, or it's a badly bolted route!

In reply to zimpara:

Even if you took the strange view that somehow making things safer was 'aid', just think about it for a minute. The longer you extend a quickdraw, the further you'll go if you fall off before you get to the next one.

In reply to Fraser:

Yes, I'm sure my daisy chain of 4 draws (or was it 5) on that fourth bolt on Silk Teds must have raised some eyebrows. Practical top-roping.

In reply to bpmclimb:


Some might say placing the bolt in the first place is a little flawed as well

Al

In reply to bpmclimb:


Well of course you can top rope a route too if you want. You can even rest on all the bolts and use etriers to get between them, none of which affects the route for other people.

The logic of where bolts should be is that they're easy to clip: not at full reach for a tall climber but a nightmare for anyone else. But having a run out is not bad bolting. Usually its there intentionally by the the first ascentionist and part of the character, part of the challenge of route. Sport routes are almost never 'necky' - meaning dangerous. But long runouts can be scary at times. If you're not up for a bit of runout then maybe just pick another route, just like if you're not up for doing hard moves do something easier.

In reply to zimpara:


You need to go back to basics and research your climbing styles / definitions.
True Aid Climbing has very little to do with what you are talking about, and which is probably better defined as 'spurt climbing'.

In reply to stp:

Sport routes are almost never 'necky' - meaning dangerous.

I beg to differ. Just off the top of my head, I can think of several in that category - with potentially dangerous runouts between bolts 1&2 or 2&3, or higher up but above ledges or other projecting features. I've clearly been choosing the wrong routes, and should perhaps take more notice of your logbook

In reply to stp:

If you're not up for a bit of runout then maybe just pick another route


Well, that is an option, of course. But I would suggest that one can't usually reliably tell how necky a clip feels until you're on route and feel how hard/committing the moves are to get to it. I would also suggest that extending a clip (if it feels necessary) is a rather easier solution than immediately abandoning the climb for another. I don't think comparing a minor alteration of a clip point to top roping or aiding routes is particularly illuminating or helpful.

I would also suggest that "necky" is not exactly synonomous with "dangerous". It could simply be "a little too scary".

I would also point out that many routes are less than perfectly bolted: after all, anyone can bolt a new route, and once they have, it may be some time before poor bolting choices are rectified, if ever.

In reply to bpmclimb:

Another reason for necky Bolting can be significant gaps between sections of rock that are suitably solid to take a bolt.

In reply to bpmclimb:


Yes but in that case it won't have a quickdraw on it anyway.

I presume you're talking about working a route prior to redpointing since that's what this thread is about. I agree pulling up rope to clip the second bolt can be risky on some routes. The usual solution is to practice the clip when working the route and figure out a solid position from which to clip from. Another solution that's becoming more common is to simply leave the first two bolts clipped on such routes.



I've always taken it to mean dangerous - as in putting one's neck on the block. What counts as scary in terms of runouts is pretty subjective. Some people get scared as soon as their waist gets above a bolt.

But surely lead climbing is meant to be scary anyway. Isn't that the entire point of leading? Part of the challenge of lead climbing.



Well I definitely agree with that - and the UK seems to have more than it's fair share of badly bolted routes. As I said above I think extending bolts with long quickdraws is fine as a temporary fix to a badly placed bolt. But if you have both a long and short draw on a bolt then obviously the fact the short draw can be clipped suggests the bolt is not in the wrong place.

In reply to stp: I must say deliberately bolting sport climbing to be deliberately strikes me as a nonsense. The bolting should be there to leave you free to concentrate on the climbing.

As a gnome I encounter occasional bad bolting and just extend the draw to 'fix' it. Which is ok for rp's but no good for onsighting

In reply to stp:


+1

A big but safe runout may well feel scary but wouldn't be 'necky'.

In reply to stp:

obviously the fact the short draw can be clipped suggests the bolt is not in the wrong place.

I did it myself recently (on a 7a at Wyndcliffe Quarry called Wilkinson's Sword, in case of local interest). The route has two initial bolts, the second coming quite soon after the first; then a third bolt some distance up and slightly off to the left. I should add that the route is a rather subtle arete climb, on which the clip positions involve holding balance positions, from which it is possible to barn door off while pulling up rope. UKC logbooks show a good number of ascents, and the position of the third bolt is questioned by a few people. I probably wouldn't go as far as to say the bolt is in the wrong place, unequivocally, but it does give pause for thought, and not just by me. A fall from clipping that bolt would be very uncomfortable, to say the least - and might well result in injury. Hard to say for sure, of course. Anyway, I wanted to lead the route, but felt that the risk/consequences of falling while clipping that bolt was too great, so I came to the compromise of preplacing a long extender as well as a short, to make two clips - as I know some others have done on that route.

Long winded story, I know - but the point is that positions of such bolts are often neither definitely right or wrong, but in a grey area.

In reply to zimpara:

The challenge in sport climbing is linking the moves. The bolts and extenders are simply there so you can try that challenge in reasonable safety and without adding more physical difficulty than is really necessary.

It's different for 'designer scare' routes, where the equipper deliberately added to the difficulty by adding a notable mental element. But for typical sport routes there's really no limit to how you choose to extend clips to effectively change their position or effectively add more clips. After all, that's presumably how you would have bolted it were it to have been your route and to do otherwise would be to turn a natural physical challenge into a man-made mental one (albeit where most of the difficulty may still be physical.)

In reply to zimpara:

Why are you all bothering to reply....oh

In reply to john arran:

+1.

I sometime use long extenders, I sometimes skip clips. I use whatever tactics allow me to climb the route most efficiently with a reasonable degree of safety . If on a given route, I prefer not to clip every bolt using a 12 cm extender, I cannot be bothered considering whether it is due more to my own ethical failings or the original bolting being poorly thought-out. I just get on with climbing the route with the protection that works best for me. If you lower a draw, you pay for it with either a potentially longer fall afterwards, by having to waste energy reclipping it into a second qd later.

In reply to zimpara:
You can also drape a sling with a biner off a bolt in addition to putting a quickdraw in the bolt itself. Then you get the best of both worlds - extended clip and ability to clip the bolt as intended, thus avoiding a bigger fall afterwards. Essentially it's like an extra bolt. I'm using this set up at the moment on a route I'm working. There's a real risk of groundfall if I come off clipping the second bolt, so I've added a 120cm sling to clip from lower down. But if I don't clip the bolt itself, it will be a bit spicy getting to the third bolt, though I probably wouldn't deck.

The climbing past the second bolt and up to the third one is fairly easy for the route and I shouldn't come off but the risk of clobbering my ankles and being out of action for weeks is simply not worth it. It makes no difference to how hard the route is as it's on the easiest section. The reason the second bolt is high compared to the first one is that there is a flake in between and sticking a bolt in a flake isn't a great idea. If it was a trad route, I would stick some gear in the flake. Being a sport route, I just extend the bolt with a sling. That's fair game as far as I'm concerned, others might disagree.

In reply to Misha:

If there is a flake in-between the 2 bolts why not use trad gear as who I climbed with used trad gear on route at Malham like Tremolo Mescalito and Zoolook, and other sports crags.

In reply to FactorXXX:



I'm sorry to say, that Nopointing has widely been used for ages... So don't be stealin' already used style descriptions...


Nopointing = figuring out the moves and not even bothering to climb the route since you already know what to do... No rappeling or testing the moves allowed...

In reply to HeMa:

Brilliant!

In reply to keith sanders:
Because it's a sport crag (or at least that part of the crag is), shouldn't need trad gear and no one does that these days. I'm all for trad but it makes no sense to me to be adding trad gear to a sport route when you can just use a sling. We aren't talking about a 'mixed' route here.