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Hi,
I went climbing at an indoor wall this weekend. I've been climbing in doors for some time and understand that holds can spin occasionally, I'm fine with this.
However, we climbed four routes, and found dangerously spinning holds on three of them. We left as I injured my knee in a fall on one of them. We notified the instructor and were told to use a manual Allen key to tighten the holds - to be fair we struggled to do this - I was surpised the center didnt use eletric drills to secure the holds, at least this would mean a standard was applied for all routes.
What are your thoughts? Is this an abnormal number of spinners or am I just overreacting ? I did get quite a bad knee injury on one of them so thats possible!
Thanks
I went climbing at an indoor wall this weekend. I've been climbing in doors for some time and understand that holds can spin occasionally, I'm fine with this.
However, we climbed four routes, and found dangerously spinning holds on three of them. We left as I injured my knee in a fall on one of them. We notified the instructor and were told to use a manual Allen key to tighten the holds - to be fair we struggled to do this - I was surpised the center didnt use eletric drills to secure the holds, at least this would mean a standard was applied for all routes.
What are your thoughts? Is this an abnormal number of spinners or am I just overreacting ? I did get quite a bad knee injury on one of them so thats possible!
Thanks
1
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In reply to Richardtodd:
Climbing or bouldering?
Wondering why your belayer didn't catch you when you fell?
Climbing or bouldering?
Wondering why your belayer didn't catch you when you fell?
Climbing.
My belayer did catch the fall, I fell standing on the spinning hold and hit my knee on it on the way down (quite a big jug).
My belayer did catch the fall, I fell standing on the spinning hold and hit my knee on it on the way down (quite a big jug).
1
In reply to Richardtodd:
Do you mean they told you to tighten the holds?
Apart from the amount they charge for these walls, I would say it's their responsibility to ensure all the holds are secure.
> ... were told to use a manual Allen key to tighten the holds
Do you mean they told you to tighten the holds?
Apart from the amount they charge for these walls, I would say it's their responsibility to ensure all the holds are secure.
23
In reply to Richardtodd:
Spinners are a hazard you need to be aware of just as loose rock is sometimes encountered on real rock. It's all part of climbing.
In your case however, having reported the spinners to the wall, I'm surprised that they expected you to tighten it! It's their responsibility and they should either have done so immediately ,temporarily closed the route or put a warning at the bottom until such time that they could.
From a legal liability point of view, this appears to be bad management. Leaving a reported spinner undealt with might impact on their liability insurance as would getting customers to deal with it rather than doing so themselves.
Spinners are a hazard you need to be aware of just as loose rock is sometimes encountered on real rock. It's all part of climbing.
In your case however, having reported the spinners to the wall, I'm surprised that they expected you to tighten it! It's their responsibility and they should either have done so immediately ,temporarily closed the route or put a warning at the bottom until such time that they could.
From a legal liability point of view, this appears to be bad management. Leaving a reported spinner undealt with might impact on their liability insurance as would getting customers to deal with it rather than doing so themselves.
17
In reply to Richardtodd:
Ouch
> Climbing.
> My belayer did catch the fall, I fell standing on the spinning hold and hit my knee on it on the way down (quite a big jug).
Ouch
In reply to Richardtodd:
They definitely shouldn't be asking untrained customers to use tools at height.
They definitely shouldn't be asking untrained customers to use tools at height.
13
1
In reply to Richardtodd:
They probably did when it was set but breaking out a drill just to tighten a spinner seems a bit overkill, also you can usually get more turning force using a hand tool and a better 'feel' for when the bolt is tight, helping avoid stripped threads.
3 holds in one session does seem unusually high, if it's a regular occurrence then perhaps the wall should look into using secondary securing screws on larger holds. Has there been a recent significant change of temperature or humidity? That might affect things due to expansion, contraction, all that good stuff.
> - I was surpised the center didnt use eletric drills to secure the holds, at least this would mean a standard was applied for all routes.
They probably did when it was set but breaking out a drill just to tighten a spinner seems a bit overkill, also you can usually get more turning force using a hand tool and a better 'feel' for when the bolt is tight, helping avoid stripped threads.
3 holds in one session does seem unusually high, if it's a regular occurrence then perhaps the wall should look into using secondary securing screws on larger holds. Has there been a recent significant change of temperature or humidity? That might affect things due to expansion, contraction, all that good stuff.
4
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In reply to Richardtodd:
Thanks for the replied.
At the start of our "initiation" safety talk we were asked to tighten any spinning holds we found ourselves if we found them. I thought this was pretty odd.
The first hold we found out had the wrong size bolt put in it which made it particularly loose.
I climb quite regularly indoors (2-3 times a week) obviouslyt spinning holds happen but this was just one after another.
Not sure if I should mention the climbing wall by name on here, I want to, but I also wanted to see what others thought first.
Thanks for the replied.
At the start of our "initiation" safety talk we were asked to tighten any spinning holds we found ourselves if we found them. I thought this was pretty odd.
The first hold we found out had the wrong size bolt put in it which made it particularly loose.
I climb quite regularly indoors (2-3 times a week) obviouslyt spinning holds happen but this was just one after another.
Not sure if I should mention the climbing wall by name on here, I want to, but I also wanted to see what others thought first.
Post edited at 14:16
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In reply to Richardtodd:
Cool, does that mean you can change all the undercuts/sidepulls to jugs? Suddenly your project gets really easier! Our local wall almost never has a single spinning hold because they pin holds in place with screws (even those that don't have secondary screw holes). I'm not sure why this isn't more routinely done, unless walls are very precious about not getting screw holes in their panels.
> At the start of our "initiation" safety talk we were asked to tighten any spinning holds we found ourselves if we found them. I thought this was pretty odd.
Cool, does that mean you can change all the undercuts/sidepulls to jugs? Suddenly your project gets really easier! Our local wall almost never has a single spinning hold because they pin holds in place with screws (even those that don't have secondary screw holes). I'm not sure why this isn't more routinely done, unless walls are very precious about not getting screw holes in their panels.
3
In reply to Richardtodd:
Back in the day customers were often given Allen keys to tighten holds. Then walls realised the potential issues with having punters up a wall with tools so they stopped.
When I set I would often use a drill to wind the bolt in then finish it by hand. This has a few advantages, with the drills we used you could get the bolt tighter by hand and there was less chance of cracking the hold on an uneven wall surface.
Back in the day customers were often given Allen keys to tighten holds. Then walls realised the potential issues with having punters up a wall with tools so they stopped.
When I set I would often use a drill to wind the bolt in then finish it by hand. This has a few advantages, with the drills we used you could get the bolt tighter by hand and there was less chance of cracking the hold on an uneven wall surface.
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In reply to DaveHK:
Thanks Dave that's interesting.
The wall was Calshot Activities Center near Southampton.
Thanks Dave that's interesting.
The wall was Calshot Activities Center near Southampton.
In reply to MrWayne:
It's the "spinning time of year" I'm afraid, as temperatures fluctuate and what were tight fastenings become loosened off with metal expanding. Having said that, most decent walls would (should) add a retaining screw either in the hold designed for that purpose or underneath it, to prevent it from spinning when leverage occurs.
Did you sign a disclaimer when you signed up to climb at the wall?
It's the "spinning time of year" I'm afraid, as temperatures fluctuate and what were tight fastenings become loosened off with metal expanding. Having said that, most decent walls would (should) add a retaining screw either in the hold designed for that purpose or underneath it, to prevent it from spinning when leverage occurs.
Did you sign a disclaimer when you signed up to climb at the wall?
4
In reply to MrWayne:
3 is definitely an abnormally high number. I don't think I've ever found more than one in a single session and the vast number of sessions I don't find any. It could be that some new routes/problems have been set recently. So I'd say it was down to the routesetter and telling the wall about it so they don't make the same mistake again would definitely be a good idea.
I think it's normal in roped climbing walls for climbers to tighten holds with an allen key and usually easier for the climber to do as they have their harness and rope right there already. Not really a big deal, especially if you look at it as a kind of community thing. The only risk for walls is that inexperienced users may overtighten the bolt and crack the hold.
Sorry to hear about your knee. Can be really painful - I did mine a few months ago when my foot slipped.
3 is definitely an abnormally high number. I don't think I've ever found more than one in a single session and the vast number of sessions I don't find any. It could be that some new routes/problems have been set recently. So I'd say it was down to the routesetter and telling the wall about it so they don't make the same mistake again would definitely be a good idea.
I think it's normal in roped climbing walls for climbers to tighten holds with an allen key and usually easier for the climber to do as they have their harness and rope right there already. Not really a big deal, especially if you look at it as a kind of community thing. The only risk for walls is that inexperienced users may overtighten the bolt and crack the hold.
Sorry to hear about your knee. Can be really painful - I did mine a few months ago when my foot slipped.
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In reply to MrWayne:
Had a feeling you were going to say Calshot when I started reading your posts.
At Calshot I have often found that the abrasive sandy paint used on the walls comes of the ply easily. As this wears off behind the holds from them slightly moving they get a bit of a gap behind them and spin. You can normally hear the crunch of the sand as they spin.
Were the spinners in the main on the wall to the left of the competition (overhanging) wall? Found a few there myself the other night. That wall has just been re- furbished and I was finding the issue worse there than usual.
As for the tightening your own holds, I guess I have always been used to the policy as it has always existed there. Calshot is a bit of an odd one as far as climbing walls go as the wall isn't the primary financial driver of the centre. As such it can sometimes feel a little unloved by the county council in terms of staffing and regularity of setting. (Although the excellent staff, in particular Anna do a fantastic job of setting routes in the time available to them). As such self tightening the holds sort of feels like helping pitch in at the wall. There is a lanyard to attach the allen key to your harness so you can't drop it on your belayer. If you don't feel confident then perhaps ask the staff then?
I'm in no way connected to the facility other than a very regular customer!
> Thanks Dave that's interesting.
> The wall was Calshot Activities Center near Southampton.
Had a feeling you were going to say Calshot when I started reading your posts.
At Calshot I have often found that the abrasive sandy paint used on the walls comes of the ply easily. As this wears off behind the holds from them slightly moving they get a bit of a gap behind them and spin. You can normally hear the crunch of the sand as they spin.
Were the spinners in the main on the wall to the left of the competition (overhanging) wall? Found a few there myself the other night. That wall has just been re- furbished and I was finding the issue worse there than usual.
As for the tightening your own holds, I guess I have always been used to the policy as it has always existed there. Calshot is a bit of an odd one as far as climbing walls go as the wall isn't the primary financial driver of the centre. As such it can sometimes feel a little unloved by the county council in terms of staffing and regularity of setting. (Although the excellent staff, in particular Anna do a fantastic job of setting routes in the time available to them). As such self tightening the holds sort of feels like helping pitch in at the wall. There is a lanyard to attach the allen key to your harness so you can't drop it on your belayer. If you don't feel confident then perhaps ask the staff then?
I'm in no way connected to the facility other than a very regular customer!
7
In reply to MrWayne:
Holds can and do spin. Personally I just get the allen key where one is available and tighten them. If there isn't one available I mention them to management and leave it at that.
Hope your knee heals well,
jk
Holds can and do spin. Personally I just get the allen key where one is available and tighten them. If there isn't one available I mention them to management and leave it at that.
Hope your knee heals well,
jk
6
In reply to thermal_t:
If it's that new bit of wall at Calshot then it might be that the t-nuts are still bedding in, they'll take a while to fully crush into the panels
If it's that new bit of wall at Calshot then it might be that the t-nuts are still bedding in, they'll take a while to fully crush into the panels
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In reply to MrWayne:
3 holds spinning in a busy wall in one night is not much at all - especially if they are not pinned. One person being on the end of all those is maybe a bit more unusual. Customers tightening the holds is not such a good idea, this was common practice at walls 15yrs ago but shouldn't be happening now. There is a bit of a risk that you will drop the allen key. There is zero risk that you will strip the threads - (you're only going to do this if the bolt is already cross threaded. To strip the threads on a correctly inserted bolt by over tightening would either require a drill with a 500 horse power engine attached to it or a bolt made of plastic. You would snap the allen key way before you could put enough force through it, especially with a 6mm key). There is however a risk that you will break a hold and either drop part of it on to someone or leave a cracked hold up there ready to break at some point later on.
I am curious as to what you mean by the wrong size bolt? Was it not fully threaded and had too much of the unthreaded section protruding out the back of the hold?
3 holds spinning in a busy wall in one night is not much at all - especially if they are not pinned. One person being on the end of all those is maybe a bit more unusual. Customers tightening the holds is not such a good idea, this was common practice at walls 15yrs ago but shouldn't be happening now. There is a bit of a risk that you will drop the allen key. There is zero risk that you will strip the threads - (you're only going to do this if the bolt is already cross threaded. To strip the threads on a correctly inserted bolt by over tightening would either require a drill with a 500 horse power engine attached to it or a bolt made of plastic. You would snap the allen key way before you could put enough force through it, especially with a 6mm key). There is however a risk that you will break a hold and either drop part of it on to someone or leave a cracked hold up there ready to break at some point later on.
I am curious as to what you mean by the wrong size bolt? Was it not fully threaded and had too much of the unthreaded section protruding out the back of the hold?
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In reply to lx:
It still happens at my local wall. Admittedly my pals and I generally ask the staff for the allen key if we find a loose hold - I don't know whether they'd ask us to do it ourselves if we just reported the loose hold. The allen key is on a lanyard with a krab at the other end, so if you clip it to the rope you can't drop it far. If you either forget or don't bother, though, then...
> Customers tightening the holds is not such a good idea, this was common practice at walls 15yrs ago but shouldn't be happening now. There is a bit of a risk that you will drop the allen key.
It still happens at my local wall. Admittedly my pals and I generally ask the staff for the allen key if we find a loose hold - I don't know whether they'd ask us to do it ourselves if we just reported the loose hold. The allen key is on a lanyard with a krab at the other end, so if you clip it to the rope you can't drop it far. If you either forget or don't bother, though, then...
Post edited at 10:25
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The whole "they could drop the allen key" thing confuses me.
1. Does your belayer stand that close that if you drop the allen key it would hit them?
2. They are not very heavy so wouldn't hurt that much if they happened to hit you
3. Would someone be likely to drop one? I have dropped an impact driver from height once (in a cordoned off area and no belayer) but never an allen key.
Very little risk or impact.
1. Does your belayer stand that close that if you drop the allen key it would hit them?
2. They are not very heavy so wouldn't hurt that much if they happened to hit you
3. Would someone be likely to drop one? I have dropped an impact driver from height once (in a cordoned off area and no belayer) but never an allen key.
Very little risk or impact.
1
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In reply to MrWayne:
Spinners are good practice for climbing in numerous Peak quarries. Learn to test a hold and be ready for the unexpected. I occasionally come across loose holds indoors. Quite often I deliberately find a way to use them as practice for loose outdoor holds. I then report them and, mostly redo the route and tighten them myself.
Climbing is an inherently dangerous sport. Everywhere has BMC signs pointing this out. Take personal responsiblity.
Spinners are good practice for climbing in numerous Peak quarries. Learn to test a hold and be ready for the unexpected. I occasionally come across loose holds indoors. Quite often I deliberately find a way to use them as practice for loose outdoor holds. I then report them and, mostly redo the route and tighten them myself.
Climbing is an inherently dangerous sport. Everywhere has BMC signs pointing this out. Take personal responsiblity.
2
In reply to MrWayne: I would say the answers to all 3 of those questions is maybe, maybe not, but having an allen key dropped from 10+m onto the upward looking belayers face would certainly hurt.
The only time I've found so many spinners was after a local sports centre had reset every route on their wall. Probably one per route.
The only time I've found so many spinners was after a local sports centre had reset every route on their wall. Probably one per route.
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In reply to JoshOvki:
A T-bar Allen key dropped from a few meters can actually do quite a bit of damage, they don't weigh a lot but are rather hard and sods law says the bit that hits you will have a fairly small surface area.
They also bounce fairly well if they hit the rubberised mats at the base of the wall.
A T-bar Allen key dropped from a few meters can actually do quite a bit of damage, they don't weigh a lot but are rather hard and sods law says the bit that hits you will have a fairly small surface area.
They also bounce fairly well if they hit the rubberised mats at the base of the wall.
2
In reply to MrWayne:
I have a wall in my garden http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=219874
I have certainly noticed that I get frequent spinners after big changes in temperature, when this happens I have to tighten every hold. The bigger the hold, the more prone it is to spinning. I assume this is due to the direction of pull. I don't have many big holds, but I can imagine that indoor jug ladders would be much more sensitive to temperature change than small crimps. I imagine in a large unheated place like Calshot there could easily be big temperature changes, in which case many holds are going to be affected in a short period. Unless they pin every hold, I'm not sure that there is anything that anyone can do.
I have a wall in my garden http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=219874
I have certainly noticed that I get frequent spinners after big changes in temperature, when this happens I have to tighten every hold. The bigger the hold, the more prone it is to spinning. I assume this is due to the direction of pull. I don't have many big holds, but I can imagine that indoor jug ladders would be much more sensitive to temperature change than small crimps. I imagine in a large unheated place like Calshot there could easily be big temperature changes, in which case many holds are going to be affected in a short period. Unless they pin every hold, I'm not sure that there is anything that anyone can do.
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Do other walls not attach their allen keys to a bit of string and a carabiner to stop them from being dropped?
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In reply to SDM:
People do stupid stuff though so why bother with the risk of giving them out to punters?
> Do other walls not attach their allen keys to a bit of string and a carabiner to stop them from being dropped?
People do stupid stuff though so why bother with the risk of giving them out to punters?
In reply to Fraser:
No one signs a disclaimer at walls in the UK as you cannot disclaim liability. What people sign is a document that shows evidence of the knowledge of the risks of the activity
> Did you sign a disclaimer when you signed up to climb at the wall?
No one signs a disclaimer at walls in the UK as you cannot disclaim liability. What people sign is a document that shows evidence of the knowledge of the risks of the activity
4
In reply to MrWayne:
Me and my daughter are regulars to indoor climbing walls. Never seen 3 holds spin in any one session tbh and would be a bit dissapointed if that were the case (I would consider climbing elsewhere if it were).
Must say though each and every time we have found a spinner, myself and my daughter have walked up to reception, told them about it and then walked a member of staff back to the hold to witness them tighten it up (TBH never had to say anything, the members of staff i have witnessed are all pretty hot on this kind of thing).
Daughter had a recent incident at Keswick wall where she was onto the last hold which was a huge phalic shaped hold and i stupidly turned my back from spotting her. As she hung from it the bloody thing spun 180dg and she fell from the top. I didnt see it but when i asked her what happened she pointed at this hold now pointing downwards. Whoops. Hold was tightened straight away by hand but then i believe hand tight can be as good as any drill.
Me and my daughter are regulars to indoor climbing walls. Never seen 3 holds spin in any one session tbh and would be a bit dissapointed if that were the case (I would consider climbing elsewhere if it were).
Must say though each and every time we have found a spinner, myself and my daughter have walked up to reception, told them about it and then walked a member of staff back to the hold to witness them tighten it up (TBH never had to say anything, the members of staff i have witnessed are all pretty hot on this kind of thing).
Daughter had a recent incident at Keswick wall where she was onto the last hold which was a huge phalic shaped hold and i stupidly turned my back from spotting her. As she hung from it the bloody thing spun 180dg and she fell from the top. I didnt see it but when i asked her what happened she pointed at this hold now pointing downwards. Whoops. Hold was tightened straight away by hand but then i believe hand tight can be as good as any drill.
In reply to MrWayne:
Anyone who's not worried about someone dropping an allen key whilst tightening bolts on a climbing wall please have a look at:
youtube.com/watch?v=Q7DDsCP6y8k&
This is one of the training videos we use in the oil and gas industry regarding the impact of dropped objects and trying to encourage people to wear their hardhats and has a similar weight of item involved to an allen key.
Anyone who's not worried about someone dropping an allen key whilst tightening bolts on a climbing wall please have a look at:
youtube.com/watch?v=Q7DDsCP6y8k&
This is one of the training videos we use in the oil and gas industry regarding the impact of dropped objects and trying to encourage people to wear their hardhats and has a similar weight of item involved to an allen key.
Post edited at 16:45
2
In reply to MrWayne:
Spinning holds can be reduced by careful route setting. Orientate any large hold so that in use it turns clockwise, this will tighten the bolt if the hold slips. Not many walls do this.
So far as dropped Allen keys goes. I am awaiting another told you so day when walls start insisting on helmet use, it will only take one bunch of keys, coin, mobile phone or similar absent mindedly left in a pocket to find its way out and I will be smug. And some poor sod will be very sore
Spinning holds can be reduced by careful route setting. Orientate any large hold so that in use it turns clockwise, this will tighten the bolt if the hold slips. Not many walls do this.
So far as dropped Allen keys goes. I am awaiting another told you so day when walls start insisting on helmet use, it will only take one bunch of keys, coin, mobile phone or similar absent mindedly left in a pocket to find its way out and I will be smug. And some poor sod will be very sore
Post edited at 17:00
2
1
In reply to Mike00010:
Thanks for the email with that too Mike, very disturbing! Kind of makes you realise the impact of carrying things in your pockets too.
Thanks for the email with that too Mike, very disturbing! Kind of makes you realise the impact of carrying things in your pockets too.
In reply to thermal_t:
Unsure about your description but yes it sounds like the wall we were on. One of them was on the very tall wall at the back of the comp wall. The two others were on the wall opposite.
Liked the comment about orientating the holds to spin clockwise too.
Unsure about your description but yes it sounds like the wall we were on. One of them was on the very tall wall at the back of the comp wall. The two others were on the wall opposite.
Liked the comment about orientating the holds to spin clockwise too.
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
Yeah, fair dos, I was using the term rather loosely!
> No one signs a disclaimer at walls in the UK as you cannot disclaim liability. What people sign is a document that shows evidence of the knowledge of the risks of the activity
Yeah, fair dos, I was using the term rather loosely!
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