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Hi all,
I've just been wondering what the hardest alpine peak is, ie. The peak with the hardest 'normal' route to the top?
I guess there are different answers depending on how you classify things, weather, etc etc but what are people's thoughts?
Nick
I've just been wondering what the hardest alpine peak is, ie. The peak with the hardest 'normal' route to the top?
I guess there are different answers depending on how you classify things, weather, etc etc but what are people's thoughts?
Nick
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In reply to NickH85:
Do you mean in the European Alps? I have a feeling the Schreckhorn has the hardest easiest route to the summit of any 4000m peak.
Do you mean in the European Alps? I have a feeling the Schreckhorn has the hardest easiest route to the summit of any 4000m peak.
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In reply to drunken monkey:
Normally thought of as the hardest 4000er, but largely because of its very remote, isolated situation. Haven't climbed the Schreckhorn but I would think that even the easiest route up the ABP is harder than the normal route on the Schreck, may find out this Summer.
Not sure I agree with the OPs criteria though, the route up is sometimes not as important as the route down, where there is no easy or straightforward descent route. On that basis, the ABP is certainly well up there, as is the Aiguille Verte given that is has no straightforward descent route either.
Normally thought of as the hardest 4000er, but largely because of its very remote, isolated situation. Haven't climbed the Schreckhorn but I would think that even the easiest route up the ABP is harder than the normal route on the Schreck, may find out this Summer.
Not sure I agree with the OPs criteria though, the route up is sometimes not as important as the route down, where there is no easy or straightforward descent route. On that basis, the ABP is certainly well up there, as is the Aiguille Verte given that is has no straightforward descent route either.
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In reply to drunken monkey:
From a purely technical perspective almost certainly some limestone needle like the ones found in the Dolomites or Karwendel Alps. Otherwise, Grand Capucin?
CB
From a purely technical perspective almost certainly some limestone needle like the ones found in the Dolomites or Karwendel Alps. Otherwise, Grand Capucin?
CB
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In reply to NickH85:
As others have said the elegant but very serious Aigulle Blanche de Peuterey is generally recognized by most as the hardest 4000M peak. Some more information about this bad boy on the following link:
http://www.summitpost.org/aiguille-blanche-de-peuterey/151151
As others have said the elegant but very serious Aigulle Blanche de Peuterey is generally recognized by most as the hardest 4000M peak. Some more information about this bad boy on the following link:
http://www.summitpost.org/aiguille-blanche-de-peuterey/151151
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In reply to BALD EAGLE:
That article is great and written by a guy who used to contribute on here a lot - Luca Signorelli
Anyone know if he still uses the forum? - his knowledge of the MB Massif - particularly the Courmayeur area was fantastic.
That article is great and written by a guy who used to contribute on here a lot - Luca Signorelli
Anyone know if he still uses the forum? - his knowledge of the MB Massif - particularly the Courmayeur area was fantastic.
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In reply to drunken monkey:
I think that although he was very patient and courteous, the endless repeated queries got to him in the end. I kept arranging to have a drink with him in Courmayeur, but for one reason or another it never quite happened, the last one being just after we had climbed the ABP, but were far too shattered to be sociable.
I think that although he was very patient and courteous, the endless repeated queries got to him in the end. I kept arranging to have a drink with him in Courmayeur, but for one reason or another it never quite happened, the last one being just after we had climbed the ABP, but were far too shattered to be sociable.
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In reply to NickH85: The ABP had a rare ski descent a few days ago..... http://www.powderlove.com/fi/event/5185
Its remoteness is somewhat negated when you're on skis but I didn't find it anymore difficult than other 4000ers I have done. When conditions are good its pretty much just snow plodding, there must be harder 4000ers out there? GPDA? or a small summit around the same area?
Its remoteness is somewhat negated when you're on skis but I didn't find it anymore difficult than other 4000ers I have done. When conditions are good its pretty much just snow plodding, there must be harder 4000ers out there? GPDA? or a small summit around the same area?
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In reply to Ben Briggs:
Yes, but you are Ben Briggs - the rest of us are human! Very human in some cases.
> I didn't find it anymore difficult than other 4000ers I have done
Yes, but you are Ben Briggs - the rest of us are human! Very human in some cases.
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In reply to drunken monkey:
I think he did, though I am not sure how widely it was distributed.
It was about Claudio Corti, who was comprehensively, and in Luca's view totally unfairly vilified in The White Spider, Luca was trying to set the record straight.
> He should write a book!
I think he did, though I am not sure how widely it was distributed.
It was about Claudio Corti, who was comprehensively, and in Luca's view totally unfairly vilified in The White Spider, Luca was trying to set the record straight.
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In reply to NickH85:
Some of the peaks that are just a bit lower than 4,000 metres are pretty hard by their easiest routes and very serious: the Bietschhorn, the Grivola, even the Eiger.
The Schreckhorn does involve some rock-climbing but the rock and belays are solid. It's a fantastic mountain with one of the greatest views in the Alps. I recommend the S Pillar especially: a fantastic 600m outing that varies between diff and mild VS. The SE ridge in descent is delightful.
Some of the peaks that are just a bit lower than 4,000 metres are pretty hard by their easiest routes and very serious: the Bietschhorn, the Grivola, even the Eiger.
The Schreckhorn does involve some rock-climbing but the rock and belays are solid. It's a fantastic mountain with one of the greatest views in the Alps. I recommend the S Pillar especially: a fantastic 600m outing that varies between diff and mild VS. The SE ridge in descent is delightful.
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In reply to NickH85:
If anybody is thinking about climbing the ABP, feel free to get in touch, I think I can give quite a lot of help. May not be unique, but may be somewhat more "immediate" than that found in guidebooks. One very useful thing to my mind is to go on an exploratory trip to the Eccles bivouac huts (from the Monzino hut), very good for acclimitisation and provides invaluable knowledge of the most common descent. It is NOT easy to find the huts from the Col Eccles (i.e. in descent), they are renowned for being hard to find anyway, so to have seen them from below beforehand is of great benefit.
If you DO decide to explore from the Monzino side, you will almost certainly need to stop at the Monzino. If you are trying to get from the valley to the Eccles in one shot, you need to start about midnight, even then it is not ideal. You do NOT want to be trying to get to the huts when the snow slope has been in the sun, much better to overnight at the Monzino.
The ABP is never very technical, including the North face, but is continuously serious and very remote. So the team needs to be very steady across the board, no room for passengers, hence my slightly flippant response to Ben - he is so used to being in serious mountain circumstances, he probably hardly notices them, also when going somewhere remote, he almost certainly goes with very competent companions.
If anybody is thinking about climbing the ABP, feel free to get in touch, I think I can give quite a lot of help. May not be unique, but may be somewhat more "immediate" than that found in guidebooks. One very useful thing to my mind is to go on an exploratory trip to the Eccles bivouac huts (from the Monzino hut), very good for acclimitisation and provides invaluable knowledge of the most common descent. It is NOT easy to find the huts from the Col Eccles (i.e. in descent), they are renowned for being hard to find anyway, so to have seen them from below beforehand is of great benefit.
If you DO decide to explore from the Monzino side, you will almost certainly need to stop at the Monzino. If you are trying to get from the valley to the Eccles in one shot, you need to start about midnight, even then it is not ideal. You do NOT want to be trying to get to the huts when the snow slope has been in the sun, much better to overnight at the Monzino.
The ABP is never very technical, including the North face, but is continuously serious and very remote. So the team needs to be very steady across the board, no room for passengers, hence my slightly flippant response to Ben - he is so used to being in serious mountain circumstances, he probably hardly notices them, also when going somewhere remote, he almost certainly goes with very competent companions.
Post edited at 19:13
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In reply to Simon4:
Schreckhorn is a walk in the park compared to the ABdeP....nice rock, bolted belays, pretty friendly glaciers on the former.....none of which you will find on the latter (as I think you know...).
http://www.camptocamp.org/outings/664019/en/aiguille-blanche-de-peuterey-no...
Schreckhorn is a walk in the park compared to the ABdeP....nice rock, bolted belays, pretty friendly glaciers on the former.....none of which you will find on the latter (as I think you know...).
http://www.camptocamp.org/outings/664019/en/aiguille-blanche-de-peuterey-no...
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In reply to NickH85:
I've not done it but I've heard local guides say that the Meije in the Ecrins has no easy route up it?
I've not done it but I've heard local guides say that the Meije in the Ecrins has no easy route up it?
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In reply to chris bedford:
That was the only thing that I found puzzling about Luca's article, the suggestion that the "voie normale" (to the extent that there is one for the ABP!), was over the Aiguille Noire. I would have thought that the route you refer to is MUCH more often done (though still not very often!), though I don't fancy descending the couloir to the upper Freney glacier plateau, not very far but quite steep, has a reputation for stonefall, was hard, unpleasant ice with stones encrusted in it while all around was deep snow and not a lot of belays as far as I could see. Not nice to go up (and invisible), and even less nice to descend as far as I can see.
But still a surer route than over the Aiguille Noire as far as I can tell.
That was the only thing that I found puzzling about Luca's article, the suggestion that the "voie normale" (to the extent that there is one for the ABP!), was over the Aiguille Noire. I would have thought that the route you refer to is MUCH more often done (though still not very often!), though I don't fancy descending the couloir to the upper Freney glacier plateau, not very far but quite steep, has a reputation for stonefall, was hard, unpleasant ice with stones encrusted in it while all around was deep snow and not a lot of belays as far as I could see. Not nice to go up (and invisible), and even less nice to descend as far as I can see.
But still a surer route than over the Aiguille Noire as far as I can tell.
Post edited at 14:58
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In reply to Simon4:
Certainly this article - http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2483
> I think he did, though I am not sure how widely it was distributed.
Certainly this article - http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2483
Post edited at 16:42
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In reply to BALD EAGLE:
Punta Luigi Amadeo must give it a good run for its money if you consider it a separate peak (I think it appears in some of the various 4000m lists). Not done the Aiguille Blanche myself though.
> As others have said the elegant but very serious Aigulle Blanche de Peuterey is generally recognized by most as the hardest 4000M peak.
Punta Luigi Amadeo must give it a good run for its money if you consider it a separate peak (I think it appears in some of the various 4000m lists). Not done the Aiguille Blanche myself though.
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In reply to chris bedford:
Actually I have just realised that it was you and Liz who put that posting on CampToCamp.
Nice pictures, good thing I couldn't see the Freney plateau with all those monster crevasses immediately below me, it would have frightened me.
Looking at your picture of the return route, I can now see why the couloir back to the Col Eccles was so hard to find in zero visibility. How DID you find it to descend?
Actually I have just realised that it was you and Liz who put that posting on CampToCamp.
Nice pictures, good thing I couldn't see the Freney plateau with all those monster crevasses immediately below me, it would have frightened me.
Looking at your picture of the return route, I can now see why the couloir back to the Col Eccles was so hard to find in zero visibility. How DID you find it to descend?
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Steady on Robert - there is a difference between a MOUNTAIN and even the hardest bump on a ridge!
> Punta Luigi Amadeo must give it a good run for its money
Steady on Robert - there is a difference between a MOUNTAIN and even the hardest bump on a ridge!
Post edited at 17:28
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In reply to Simon4:
ABDP is the hardest bump on the Peuterey Ridge. PLA is the hardest bump on the Brouillard Ridge
> Steady on Robert - there is a difference between a MOUNTAIN and even the hardest bump on a ridge!
ABDP is the hardest bump on the Peuterey Ridge. PLA is the hardest bump on the Brouillard Ridge
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In reply to Simon4 a while ago: "The ABP is never very technical, including the North face"
OK, it's been skied occasionally, but it was comparable to the Triolet NF when I did it long ago and the serac barrier present then (pic in my gallery) doesn't appear to have changed much judging by Ben B's skiing link. In those days the easiest way to the ABP was probably the couloir from the Brenva glacier up to the Col de Peuterey, which was then the standard approach to the Freney pillars.
Going back to the original question and your point about getting down, I certainly think the ABP was the most committing of the 4000ers I did. We didn't actually descend it, but continued up to Mont Blanc which made a great day out to a chilly Vallot hut.
Rob F
OK, it's been skied occasionally, but it was comparable to the Triolet NF when I did it long ago and the serac barrier present then (pic in my gallery) doesn't appear to have changed much judging by Ben B's skiing link. In those days the easiest way to the ABP was probably the couloir from the Brenva glacier up to the Col de Peuterey, which was then the standard approach to the Freney pillars.
Going back to the original question and your point about getting down, I certainly think the ABP was the most committing of the 4000ers I did. We didn't actually descend it, but continued up to Mont Blanc which made a great day out to a chilly Vallot hut.
Rob F
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In reply to rif:
That would certainly be problematic now, I think the tiny Brenva bivouac is hardly used at all these days. As huts go, that is a serious and unusual tick.
Impressive.
We thought about that at various times, but reality set in, as did the threatened storm, earlier than forecast rather than later as we had hoped.
> In those days the easiest way to the ABP was probably the couloir from the Brenva glacier up to the Col de Peuterey, which was then the standard approach to the Freney pillars.
That would certainly be problematic now, I think the tiny Brenva bivouac is hardly used at all these days. As huts go, that is a serious and unusual tick.
> We didn't actually descend it, but continued up to Mont Blanc which made a great day out to a chilly Vallot hut.
Impressive.
We thought about that at various times, but reality set in, as did the threatened storm, earlier than forecast rather than later as we had hoped.
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In reply to Simon4: I meant climbing Col Peuterey/ABP from the upper Brenva glacier, reached from the Fourche/Trident across Col Moore
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In reply to rif:
Ah, so not up the N face then? Finishing the same way as Chris and party?
Looked problematic when we did it, we were wallowing beneath the Col de Peuterey being bombarded by stones from the col. As soon as we were below the col, in the space of about 10 feet, it changed from soft snow to hard ice, and the stones stopped.
The face was quite long, but a lot more comforting than being under the Col.
Ah, so not up the N face then? Finishing the same way as Chris and party?
Looked problematic when we did it, we were wallowing beneath the Col de Peuterey being bombarded by stones from the col. As soon as we were below the col, in the space of about 10 feet, it changed from soft snow to hard ice, and the stones stopped.
The face was quite long, but a lot more comforting than being under the Col.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Actually it isn't - that would be the Aiguille Noire, terror abseils, loose crumbling death around the Dammes Anglais and all.
> ABDP is the hardest bump on the Peuterey Ridge.
Actually it isn't - that would be the Aiguille Noire, terror abseils, loose crumbling death around the Dammes Anglais and all.
Post edited at 18:53
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In reply to Simon4:
I think we may be getting crossed wires here. When I did the ABP it was via the original NF route, surmounting the seracs by a pitch of about Scottish III where a snow ridge abutted them, then descending from ABP to the Col (nasty descent as I recall) before doing the ridge up to Mt B. But I added the comment that in those days the NF of the Col (then a straightforward-looking snow face off to R of ABP NF) was used by people heading for the Freney pillars; I guess they go via the Eccles these days.
I think we may be getting crossed wires here. When I did the ABP it was via the original NF route, surmounting the seracs by a pitch of about Scottish III where a snow ridge abutted them, then descending from ABP to the Col (nasty descent as I recall) before doing the ridge up to Mt B. But I added the comment that in those days the NF of the Col (then a straightforward-looking snow face off to R of ABP NF) was used by people heading for the Freney pillars; I guess they go via the Eccles these days.
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In reply to Simon4:
But you can climb the ANDP (or, of course, the ABDP) without doing the whole ridge!
> Actually it isn't - that would be the Aiguille Noire, terror abseils, loose crumbling death around the Dammes Anglais and all.
But you can climb the ANDP (or, of course, the ABDP) without doing the whole ridge!
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In reply to rif:
Ah, right, understand now.
Yes, people climbing most of the big rock routes will go from the Eccles I think.
Funnily enough, when we got back down to the Val Veney, soaked and very tired, I thumbed a lift from someone who turned out to be a (I presume by his figure retired), Italian guide to get back to the car park for the cable car. He managed in 10 minutes to tell me in voluble, but not very accurate French that we had
1) climbed the wrong route (should have climbed the serac as you say)
2) descended the wrong way (didn't quite work out what the correct way was)
3) shouldn't have taken the chance with the bad weather
On the other hand, he knew exactly where I wanted to go and why, took me right to the car park and almost to the car, so that I was back with my mate before he had even got his boots off. Couldn't have been a better lift if I had been a pretty girl. So "si signor, whatever".
> I think we may be getting crossed wires here. When I did the ABP it was via the original NF route, surmounting the seracs by a pitch of about Scottish III where a snow ridge abutted them, then descending from ABP to the Col (nasty descent as I recall) before doing the ridge up to Mt B. But I added the comment that in those days the NF of the Col (then a straightforward-looking snow face off to R of ABP NF) was used by people heading for the Freney pillars; I guess they go via the Eccles these days.
Ah, right, understand now.
Yes, people climbing most of the big rock routes will go from the Eccles I think.
Funnily enough, when we got back down to the Val Veney, soaked and very tired, I thumbed a lift from someone who turned out to be a (I presume by his figure retired), Italian guide to get back to the car park for the cable car. He managed in 10 minutes to tell me in voluble, but not very accurate French that we had
1) climbed the wrong route (should have climbed the serac as you say)
2) descended the wrong way (didn't quite work out what the correct way was)
3) shouldn't have taken the chance with the bad weather
On the other hand, he knew exactly where I wanted to go and why, took me right to the car park and almost to the car, so that I was back with my mate before he had even got his boots off. Couldn't have been a better lift if I had been a pretty girl. So "si signor, whatever".
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In reply to NickH85:
I'm just putting the Weisshorn into the mix. No cable car access, giant, untameable. Watching avalanches go off the back of it when we were looking at it from the Bishorn, is a memory which never fades.
I'm just putting the Weisshorn into the mix. No cable car access, giant, untameable. Watching avalanches go off the back of it when we were looking at it from the Bishorn, is a memory which never fades.
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In reply to Simon4:
Why would you when there's a path round the side?
Over the top of MB, I'd imagine
Hmmm, well he's right there. I'm staying indoors today as it's rather warm out. Just can't be too careful...
> 1) climbed the wrong route (should have climbed the serac as you say)
Why would you when there's a path round the side?
> 2) descended the wrong way (didn't quite work out what the correct way was)
Over the top of MB, I'd imagine
> 3) shouldn't have taken the chance with the bad weather
Hmmm, well he's right there. I'm staying indoors today as it's rather warm out. Just can't be too careful...
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In reply to glaramara:
Nicer peak than the ABdeP for sure. And easier. Bonus.
> I'm just putting the Weisshorn into the mix
Nicer peak than the ABdeP for sure. And easier. Bonus.
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