UKC

Belaying second on a mega jul

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 Greasy Prusiks 21 Jul 2016

Hi everyone,
I can't seem to find out which way up a mega jul should go when you're belaying a second from your tie in loop. I assume the green thumb loop should point at the sky with the brake side of the rope on top and the climber on the bottom? Any advice on this one would be good.

I don't want to belay in guide mode.
Post edited at 16:55
 TobyA 21 Jul 2016
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

Exactly the same way as you belay the leader. Thumb loop on which ever side your dead rope is, but otherwise just like any other tube style device.
 Robert Durran 21 Jul 2016
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

Same as for leading.
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

OK thanks guys. Someone said to me that you flip an ATC style device so the teeth/grooves are still on the break side so I wondered if I should have been doing that with my mega jul.
Vero 21 Jul 2016
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

You can also find plenty of videos on youtube which explain this.
In reply to Vero:

OK thanks I'll have another look couldn't see my exact question when I checked.
 Ben07 21 Jul 2016

In reply to Greasy

No offence lol ........... but,
You honestly can't work it out?
When you bring up a second the only thing differ to belaying from the ground is that the rope is pulling down not up.
Post edited at 22:38
4
 bouldery bits 21 Jul 2016
In reply to Ben07:

> In reply to Greasy

> No offence lol ........... but,

> You honestly can't work it out?

> When you bring up a second the only thing differ to belaying from the ground is that the rope is pulling down not up.

No such thing as a stupid question - only a stupid Pr*ck with a sarky response.

No offence. Lol.
 EddInaBox 21 Jul 2016
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

With something like the Black Diamond ATC XP ( http://www.bananafingers.co.uk/black-diamond-atc-xp-p-328.html ) you can use it both ways round, with the dead rope coming out of the side with the teeth you get more friction which means it requires less strength to hold the dead rope when the live rope is weighted, the blurb for the ATC XP says three times more. With a fat fuzzy rope this may give too much friction and make paying out or abseiling awkward, so you may chose to use it in the lower friction mode. When bringing up a second (if you want to use an ATC XP in high friction mode) orientate the device so that the dead rope is still coming out of the side that the teeth are on, and your brake hand has room to move to the locking off position.

I believe that the Jul family of devices can be used either way round, one way gives assisted braking, but when turned around it acts like a normal tube style device. This video suggests it is better to abseil in non-blocking mode - https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_778457137&featur... . If in doubt, before your second sets off pull on the live side of the rope whilst holding the dead side and see if the carabiner drops into the slot and the device locks up.

Are you aware that tests done by Jim Titt show that at high loads the Mega Jul allows a lot of rope slippage, particularly with thin ropes at the lower end of its suggested usage range, and would make holding a high fall factor fall doubtful?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=638509&v=1#x8277810
In reply to EddInaBox:

Perfect answer thanks a lot.

I hadn't seen Jims tests, I'll have a look through them.
In reply to Ben07:

So far I've had both possible answers so I don't think it's a stupid question. If you have used one and think you know which mode is best I'd like to hear it if not kindly sling your hook. I'm sure there's some non climbing threads that could use a sarcasm top up.

No offence lol
 jimtitt 22 Jul 2016
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

The instructions only show belaying a second from the harness through a re-direct and then the device is in the normal belaying mode. There is no provision for "normal" belaying a second.
In reply to jimtitt:

OK thanks Jim. I've had a look at your research (much appreciated by the way) and through the climbing grape vine understand you know one end of a belay device from the other.

What do you reckon is the best device for multi pitch trad climbing using two ropes?
 jimtitt 23 Jul 2016
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

ATC XP.
That´ s what I carry out of my collection.
In reply to jimtitt:

Thanks Jim.

I'll pick up an ATC XP or similar next time I'm in the climbing shop.

Happy Climbing
 Cheese Monkey 23 Jul 2016
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

Have always used mine with the loop facing up like you said. Works well
 andrewmc 24 Jul 2016
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
> OK thanks Jim. I've had a look at your research (much appreciated by the way) and through the climbing grape vine understand you know one end of a belay device from the other.

Jim certainly does (far more than me), but all of his tests are static, not dynamic drop tests (because you need a drop tower etc and it is hard/expensive - I am grateful for the tests that Jim has done voluntarily and kindly provided to the public!). The massive unknown is whether a FF2 fall on the MegaJul, and consequent slippage, will result in:
a) catastrophic failure, continued slippage, and death for all involved, or
b) the slippage reducing as the energy of the fall is absorbed and the climber eventually coming to a halt.
It is almost certainly dependent on rope diameters, as the MegaJul will fail to hold bodyweight for certain ropes (single strand 8.5mm in my case, but static 9mm is fine).

I _don't_ trust my MegaJul to hold a fall unless I am holding the brake rope correctly, and I expect it to slip if subjected to a large enough force. But equally I don't trust myself to hold a FF2 fall - I have absolutely no experience of holding such dramatic falls and I don't intend to if I can possibly avoid it; it may very well be that having a belay device that will, for the correct choice of ropes, eventually lock up may stop a FF2 fall that I wouldn't have held myself. Or not. Who knows, unless someone does some dynamic drop tests? :P

Slippage can be good (the alternative usually being tearing a rope). When tying off a Petzl ID (industrial belay device/descender, bit like a big Grigri - which you don't normally need to tie off as they lock off but it is an option) you are supposed to leave at least 1m of slack rope downstream as in a big fall the rope will slip and absorb the energy of the fall, and if you don't leave the slack then the knot hits the device before the slippage has finished and Bad Things happen.

All of the above can be ignored - I'm just not sure Jim's results mean you should run out and buy yourself a new belay plate, when there is so much more shiny gear in the world to buy :P
Post edited at 21:15
 andrewmc 24 Jul 2016
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

> Hi everyone,

> I can't seem to find out which way up a mega jul should go when you're belaying a second from your tie in loop. I assume the green thumb loop should point at the sky with the brake side of the rope on top and the climber on the bottom? Any advice on this one would be good.

It works fine. It also (for certain diameters of rope, accounting also for single/double strand loading) locks as normal, which can be quite nice for holding climbers.

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