UKC

hi i need a bit of advice as it seem im getting conflicting answers off people im currently making my own set of cows tails and ive been told that its possible to girth hitch the cows tails to my belay loop which would allow me a bit of adjust ability in length when i clip into the ladder on the job im working on but i thought i had better ask and see what people say..

many thanks

In reply to Flyinggardener:

Is that 'girth hitched' with two seperate tails/karabiners? Not a very clever idea

In reply to zimpara:

sorry i have very little knowledge when it comes to all this

so you cannot use a length of rope with two karabiners on the end then girth hitch it on

if that's the case can you tell me the best knot to use ??

In reply to Flyinggardener:

A figure of eight is the knot to use.
A Girth Hitch/Larks Foot can slip if you apply load to one strand only.

In reply to Flyinggardener:

Unclipping one tail and falling would be potentially disastrous as Xfact said.
You can't improve much on the systems that are most used today, they might not be elegant but they work and most are simple to always get right. Which is more important!

In reply to FactorXXX:

I wondered about girth hitching recently, in context of homemade via ferrata kit, same question, would hitch slip if you fall on single strand, couldn't find any info. Do you have some data??

In reply to Flyinggardener:

3 options spring to mind:

1) have a single cows tail with an alpine butterfly knot in it at half way.
2) use a purcell prussic
3) instead of a cow hitch use a re-threaded figure of 8 at the harness.

In reply to John Kelly:

I wondered about girth hitching recently, in context of homemade via ferrata kit, same question, would hitch slip if you fall on single strand, couldn't find any info. Do you have some data??

No data to hand sorry.
However, think of it like this: Would you tie a Lark's Foot if one of the strands was only 6"/150mm long?

In reply to FactorXXX:
- are you then saying its exists?
- good point, in addition any slippage would be quite savage on the harness

For what it's worth I ended up using a rethreaded thumb knot

In reply to John Kelly:


You shouldn't be doing this. There's no dynamic elements in such systems, which means that your hips will be the ones to absorb the shock (read "you can break your hips").

In reply to Flyinggardener:

Personally I don't see a problem with a girth hitch. I sometimes lead on one doubled over half rope using it. Always seems secure enough

In reply to PPP:

I'm not going to go into a long explanation of what I was doing with the system, I didn't give a full description, suffice to say that I took care of the shock loading. Thanks for concern though

In reply to Flyinggardener:

Why not buy a Via-Ferrata kit?

In reply to Flyinggardener:


You might be getting conflicting advice because people have experience of different equipment and are giving answers relating to the equipment they are familiar with. For example a lanyard with a looped termination at each end ( like this: http://www.beal-planet.com/en/longes/290-longe-dynaclip-75.html ) could be girth hitched using the larger loop at the end, but is not designed to provide two tails by using a girth hitch in the middle. Whereas a V lanyard with a loop in the middle ( like this: http://www.beal-planet.com/en/longes/37-longe-dynadoubleclip.html ) can be girth hitched to your harness. However the looped terminations on these are sewn using industrial equipment and meet the relevant safety standards, something you cannot do if making your own.

In reply to Flyinggardener:
Did this recently.

Buy a cheap, thin half rope. Decathlon sell them cut to any size for around £1 per meter. This works out way cheaper than using slings (which are not dynamic) or pre-made lanyards (which are expensive).

I use about 1.5m of this rope.

Tie an alpine butterly knot halfway down with a large-ish loop. This loop will be hitched to your belay loop.

At either end take a carabiner and tie a half-fishermans a.k.a barrel knot onto the carabiners. The barrel knot will pull tight when loaded and also prevent the carabiners moving around and cross-loading.

Hitch both biners through your belay loop and now you have cows tails on a dynamic rope.

I use two wiregate carabiners on mine for ease of clipping. I imagine this would be ok for Via Ferrata too to be honest.

I've seen adjustable versions but this equires a third biner to be clipped onto the belay loop.

In reply to GrahamD:

Personally I see this as a poor choice of knots for your use case. If one strand is heavily loaded the girth hitch will slip and it may melt / damage the rope / your harness - perhaps dangerously so.

Its less of a problem for seconding climbs, especially if the climb is fairly straight up the ways.

In reply to GrahamD:

You larks foot into the half mark? Guessing that's for very simply routes that you don't fall off on?

In reply to Flyinggardener:

>when i clip into the ladder on the job im working on...

So this is not for a climbing application? What type of ladder? How high? How is the ladder secured at the top?

Sounds like you need a scaffold hook on one end, and a risk assessment carried out.

In reply to MrWayne:


I imagine this would be ok for Via Ferrata too to be honest.


Well, its not. Why on earth give advice if you have no idea whether or not its wise, this is typical of UKwhining!!! Via Ferrata kits have some sort of shock absorption in them (either the rope lanyards wound through tight holes in a metal plate, or a screamer-type rip-open sling). Without these shock absorptions you risk breaking anchors or damaging yourself in a fall.
You could use a lanyard, but then again you could use a microwave for drying your wet dog, with that level of sense.

In reply to Flyinggardener:

Hi,

Unlike most people here I am not going to give any advice because I don't know what you are have, what you are going to be doing with it, or what might go wrong. I am also not qualified to give advice for industrial applications (and I suspect few/none of the rest of the people here are either) although there may be a lot of cross-over; it depends on the situation.

What tasks are you doing? Is your system for fall-arrest or just restraint?

What gear do you have? Most of the industrial stuff I have seen is closed with a maillon (like a caving harness) or has a metal attachment point, in which case you might attach cowstails with a Fig 8 to the maillon or attachment point (and, as already mentioned, barrel/scaffold knots at the carabiner end). If you are using a climbing harness for industrial work, why? Climbing harnesses have a high attachment point and are quite different to a lot of industrial stuff. Incidentally, devices like the Grion are commonly used for adjustable lanyards.

What might go wrong - is the cowstail to prevent a fall or protect a fall? If you fall off, how far might you fall? Might you be above your attachment point? Do you need a long-ish attachment (up to a metre or so)? You talk about clipping onto a ladder - is this a safe and robust attachment point?

If you are not sure how to make up your own set of cows tails in an industrial setting then I suspect you require proper training...

More information is required to give a good answer, even if anyone on here is qualified to give it (I am sure there are a few IRATA type people knocking around).

In reply to zimpara:

see the Chris Tan Death Knot

(very unlikely to result in death)

In reply to zimpara:


I use it as a novelty more on routes I'm not likely to fall off or where the amount of gear means very low fall factor. Otherwise I tie to centre on a bowline. For a cows tail where it's just for clipping in (not for VF) it strikes me as a very neat solution.

In reply to Flyinggardener:

As attachment methods go a girth hitch at the harness, if kept snug would work fine, it won't slip under normal bodyweight and small shock loads. My question is why do you want cowstails? Outside of SRT/access-work where there are neat established solutions they're basically pointless clutter.

jk

In reply to MrWayne:


It wouldn't be ok for via ferrata.

OP: the way to achieve what you're after without the girth hitch is with a locking krab and a clove hitch in its place. The question remains, for climbing at least what is the point?
jk

In reply to GrahamD:

Thanks. I gathered as much judging by how experienced you are.