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when you slip off the starting moves but then get back on and climb the route clean?
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In reply to Rob Powell LC&CC:
If the crux is the starting move then yeah, otherwise no take the onsight
If the crux is the starting move then yeah, otherwise no take the onsight
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In reply to Rob Powell LC&CC:
I'm afraid so. Falling off is falling off whether it's 1 metre up or 10 metres.
I'm afraid so. Falling off is falling off whether it's 1 metre up or 10 metres.
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In reply to deacondeacon:
I knew the onsight was blown but as I essentially restarted the route from the ground I wasn't sure if was classed as ground up or dogged due to falling. And yes the start was the crux. Route 2 at Wimberry
I knew the onsight was blown but as I essentially restarted the route from the ground I wasn't sure if was classed as ground up or dogged due to falling. And yes the start was the crux. Route 2 at Wimberry
Post edited at 23:56
In reply to Rob Powell LC&CC:
If I fell or jumped back to the ground or weighted gear and then restarted and got it clean I'd log it as G/U.
If I climbed back to the ground in a controlled way and got it clean I'd probably still claim O/S.
If I fell or jumped back to the ground or weighted gear and then restarted and got it clean I'd log it as G/U.
If I climbed back to the ground in a controlled way and got it clean I'd probably still claim O/S.
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In reply to Rob Powell LC&CC:
It's ground up as you've returned to ground level from where you fell and restarted the route.
So, say you fell at 20 metres up a route as long as you then lower to ground, pull the rope and restart from scratch, then that's 'ground up'. eg see link from BBC:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/climbing-how-to-talk-the-talk
Most people use 'dogged' to refer to when they fall, STAY at that height sitting resting on rope and then continue from there upwards by whatever means whether it be climbing, pulling on rope, pulling on draws or whatever!
It's ground up as you've returned to ground level from where you fell and restarted the route.
So, say you fell at 20 metres up a route as long as you then lower to ground, pull the rope and restart from scratch, then that's 'ground up'. eg see link from BBC:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/climbing-how-to-talk-the-talk
Most people use 'dogged' to refer to when they fall, STAY at that height sitting resting on rope and then continue from there upwards by whatever means whether it be climbing, pulling on rope, pulling on draws or whatever!
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In reply to JHiley:
Agreed. If you climb back down in full control then definitely it's still an onsight.
Agreed. If you climb back down in full control then definitely it's still an onsight.
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In reply to climberchristy:
Nah, that's bi sight.
For most tricky climbs I do at least a for sight.
😋
Nah, that's bi sight.
For most tricky climbs I do at least a for sight.
😋
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In reply to Big Ger:
If climbing matters, so does style at times.
Back to the OP I'd be relaxed about people slipping off hard start moves... give yourself a soft onsight with a bouldering slip (honesty is the issue) ground up is really for falls (where you lower to the ground or full rest point and start again and then climb it cleanly). Ultra-pure onsights can be tricky as avoiding any information is hard these days.
If climbing matters, so does style at times.
Back to the OP I'd be relaxed about people slipping off hard start moves... give yourself a soft onsight with a bouldering slip (honesty is the issue) ground up is really for falls (where you lower to the ground or full rest point and start again and then climb it cleanly). Ultra-pure onsights can be tricky as avoiding any information is hard these days.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Yet he still failed on it...
Onsight is not only about weighing the gear, it is doing the climb without prior knowledge and in a controlled succesful way. Falling off (even from the 1st move) is still fallin' off or failing to climb the route.
hence lead, 2nd go . or perhaps the current term elsewhere would be redpointed on the 1st go, after slippin' off from the starting move.
Yet he still failed on it...
Onsight is not only about weighing the gear, it is doing the climb without prior knowledge and in a controlled succesful way. Falling off (even from the 1st move) is still fallin' off or failing to climb the route.
hence lead, 2nd go . or perhaps the current term elsewhere would be redpointed on the 1st go, after slippin' off from the starting move.
Post edited at 19:04
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In reply to Rob Powell LC&CC:
I think this is getting a bit silly, I mean what if you slip putting on your climbing shoes do you lose your on-sight
But seriously, should it not depend on if it's a difficult start you benefit from the first attempt, otherwise who cares?
I think this is getting a bit silly, I mean what if you slip putting on your climbing shoes do you lose your on-sight
But seriously, should it not depend on if it's a difficult start you benefit from the first attempt, otherwise who cares?
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In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Disco leg blows everything, purely on the grounds of aesthetics
> Does a bit of disco leg blow the onsight?
Disco leg blows everything, purely on the grounds of aesthetics
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In reply to Rob Powell LC&CC:
Serious question for everyone, by reading a guide book description of a route, is that classed as beta?
Serious question for everyone, by reading a guide book description of a route, is that classed as beta?
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In reply to Rob Powell LC&CC:
If you don't weight the rope then it's a "tactical reverse dyno" (phrase nicked from someone on here). It's a legitimate move and you can claim the onsight.
If you don't weight the rope then it's a "tactical reverse dyno" (phrase nicked from someone on here). It's a legitimate move and you can claim the onsight.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
So does this mean that if I fall off soloing a route I can still later claim the onsight... since I didn't weight any gear...
Of course not. As that would mean all bouldering ascents would always be onsights (ok, flashes), since no one ever weighs any gear on boulders.
In order to claim onsight you need to do it cleanly (not weighting the gear), without prior knowledge (of gear or moves, other than what you can see from the ground or read from a guidebook... purist might even claim the latter will spoil the onsight) and not falling off from the climb. Down climbing is ok, jumping or fallin' is not.
So does this mean that if I fall off soloing a route I can still later claim the onsight... since I didn't weight any gear...
Of course not. As that would mean all bouldering ascents would always be onsights (ok, flashes), since no one ever weighs any gear on boulders.
In order to claim onsight you need to do it cleanly (not weighting the gear), without prior knowledge (of gear or moves, other than what you can see from the ground or read from a guidebook... purist might even claim the latter will spoil the onsight) and not falling off from the climb. Down climbing is ok, jumping or fallin' is not.
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In reply to Hooo:
Great... I'll be then changing all my bouldering logbook entries to flashed, as I've simply done a bunch of unplanned tactical reverse dynoes before finally stickin' the move or moves and climbing the problem...
...not.
Great... I'll be then changing all my bouldering logbook entries to flashed, as I've simply done a bunch of unplanned tactical reverse dynoes before finally stickin' the move or moves and climbing the problem...
...not.
In reply to HeMa:
If it's only Bouldering then who gives a shit anyway? I thought the OP was talking about climbing.
Please note smiley on this (and previous) post. They are not to be taken seriously.
If it's only Bouldering then who gives a shit anyway? I thought the OP was talking about climbing.
Please note smiley on this (and previous) post. They are not to be taken seriously.
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In reply to HeMa:
Yes
Bouldering is presumably different.
Far too arbitrary and contrived.
> So does this mean that if I fall off soloing a route I can still later claim the onsight... since I didn't weight any gear...
Yes
> Of course not. As that would mean all bouldering ascents would always be onsights (ok, flashes), since no one ever weighs any gear on boulders.
Bouldering is presumably different.
> Down climbing is ok, jumping or fallin' is not.
Far too arbitrary and contrived.
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In reply to Steve-J-E:
Surely that's alpha?
> Serious question for everyone, by reading a guide book description of a route, is that classed as beta?
Surely that's alpha?
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In reply to Robert Durran:
No it's not... other than since boulders are so short, you can't claim onsight on them and have to go with flash.
As stated, onsight for roped climbing is to climb cleanly the route without any prior knowledge. If you fall or slip, you haven't climbed it cleanly. However, if you downclimb to the ground... it's still ok. Jumping off on purpose is a bit of a gray area, but accordin' to my ethics it's failing and I ain't writin' it as an onsight.
That said, as with all these non-professional treads... I don't really care a rats ass... nor should anyone else. The only thing that matters, is that the person is honest to them selves.
Eg. have a look at this route and the public logbooks:
https://27crags.com/crags/nalkkilan-slabi/routes/smooth-operator-126644
Eg. Pasi Jokinen slipped off as soon as he stood on the wall (and no, that ain't the crux). Hence he claimed redpoint as he got it on the 2nd go, even though on principle he basically onsighted the whole route (except for the 1st foot placement).
> Bouldering is presumably different.
No it's not... other than since boulders are so short, you can't claim onsight on them and have to go with flash.
As stated, onsight for roped climbing is to climb cleanly the route without any prior knowledge. If you fall or slip, you haven't climbed it cleanly. However, if you downclimb to the ground... it's still ok. Jumping off on purpose is a bit of a gray area, but accordin' to my ethics it's failing and I ain't writin' it as an onsight.
That said, as with all these non-professional treads... I don't really care a rats ass... nor should anyone else. The only thing that matters, is that the person is honest to them selves.
Eg. have a look at this route and the public logbooks:
https://27crags.com/crags/nalkkilan-slabi/routes/smooth-operator-126644
Eg. Pasi Jokinen slipped off as soon as he stood on the wall (and no, that ain't the crux). Hence he claimed redpoint as he got it on the 2nd go, even though on principle he basically onsighted the whole route (except for the 1st foot placement).
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In reply to HeMa:
You see a boulder problem, you climb it. Onsight.
Why are you saying you are allowed to down climb a route but not a boulder problem? You are confused and inconsistent. The fact is that routes and boulder problems are treated differently.
> No it's not... other than since boulders are so short, you can't claim onsight on them and have to go with flash.
You see a boulder problem, you climb it. Onsight.
Why are you saying you are allowed to down climb a route but not a boulder problem? You are confused and inconsistent. The fact is that routes and boulder problems are treated differently.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Your compass is really screwed... I dare you to log a boulder in UKC as onsight... or any other proper climbing logbook.
You're allowed to down climb, be it boulder or route. But jumping off or slippin' is not down climbing, both are implications of failing...
> You see a boulder problem, you climb it. Onsight.
Your compass is really screwed... I dare you to log a boulder in UKC as onsight... or any other proper climbing logbook.
> Why are you saying you are allowed to down climb a route but not a boulder problem? You are confused and inconsistent. The fact is that routes and boulder problems are treated differently.
You're allowed to down climb, be it boulder or route. But jumping off or slippin' is not down climbing, both are implications of failing...
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In reply to Rob Powell LC&CC:
Is it still an onsight if someone tells you beforehand that the route starts at the bottom and ends at the top of the crag? I don´t think so, without this critical piece of beta you might have climbed the wrong direction.....
Seriously, if you don´t have problems create some!
CB
Is it still an onsight if someone tells you beforehand that the route starts at the bottom and ends at the top of the crag? I don´t think so, without this critical piece of beta you might have climbed the wrong direction.....
Seriously, if you don´t have problems create some!
CB
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In reply to HeMa:
OK, I'll take your word for it with bouldering, because I have almost no personal interest in it, though it would surprise me if down climbing to the ground to preserve the flash/onsight was ok. Maybe someone else could clarify.
But your thing about being allowed to down climb but not jump off routes is daft, and so is splitting hairs between jumping and falling.
OK, I'll take your word for it with bouldering, because I have almost no personal interest in it, though it would surprise me if down climbing to the ground to preserve the flash/onsight was ok. Maybe someone else could clarify.
But your thing about being allowed to down climb but not jump off routes is daft, and so is splitting hairs between jumping and falling.
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In reply to HeMa:
If down-climbing and starting again is onsight, is it still an onsight if you climb the first pitch of a multipitch route, then ab to the ground, then come back another day and lead the whole route clean?
Seems wrong to me.
> You're allowed to down climb, be it boulder or route. But jumping off or slippin' is not down climbing, both are implications of failing...
If down-climbing and starting again is onsight, is it still an onsight if you climb the first pitch of a multipitch route, then ab to the ground, then come back another day and lead the whole route clean?
Seems wrong to me.
In reply to humptydumpty:
Applying logic like that to multi-pitch seems a bit of a slippery slope. You could easily say that each belay is a point of aid and so no multi pitch is ever onsight or even clean.
Also abseiling isn't the same as down climbing since you're relying on gear.
If down-climbing invalidates the onsight then you could also say (with similar logic) that down-climbing back to the belay ledge on a multi-pitch must also invalidate the onsight and therefore any reversed moves or moves back to a ledge must too. That way lies madness.
I prefer to think of each type of climbing having it's own rules. For routes downclimbing doesn't cost the onsight but for bouldering (for me personally) it does. In multi pitch I don't count each belay as an aid point as long as they aren't in a silly place or clearly taken because the leader was tired. There are bound to be some grey areas and subjectivity.
Applying logic like that to multi-pitch seems a bit of a slippery slope. You could easily say that each belay is a point of aid and so no multi pitch is ever onsight or even clean.
Also abseiling isn't the same as down climbing since you're relying on gear.
If down-climbing invalidates the onsight then you could also say (with similar logic) that down-climbing back to the belay ledge on a multi-pitch must also invalidate the onsight and therefore any reversed moves or moves back to a ledge must too. That way lies madness.
I prefer to think of each type of climbing having it's own rules. For routes downclimbing doesn't cost the onsight but for bouldering (for me personally) it does. In multi pitch I don't count each belay as an aid point as long as they aren't in a silly place or clearly taken because the leader was tired. There are bound to be some grey areas and subjectivity.
Post edited at 11:36
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In reply to humptydumpty:
No, but it's ok to lower a rope and get your mates to jumar up with bivi gear and to re supply you with food.
> If down-climbing and starting again is onsight, is it still an onsight if you climb the first pitch of a multipitch route, then ab to the ground, then come back another day and lead the whole route clean?
No, but it's ok to lower a rope and get your mates to jumar up with bivi gear and to re supply you with food.
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In reply to humptydumpty:
The route wouldn't have been onsighted but you could say you managed to onsight each pitch (on different days).
The route wouldn't have been onsighted but you could say you managed to onsight each pitch (on different days).
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In reply to Rob Powell LC&CC:
Ground up means starting from the ground. It's not the same as onsight or flash. Though I'm not sure stick clipping one's way to the anchors is quite in the spirit of ground up.
Ground up means starting from the ground. It's not the same as onsight or flash. Though I'm not sure stick clipping one's way to the anchors is quite in the spirit of ground up.
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In reply to stp:
I feel ground-down by this discussion.
Jumping off a route with a boulder problem start wouldn't bother my ethical compass at all- it's just the nature of the route.
I feel ground-down by this discussion.
Jumping off a route with a boulder problem start wouldn't bother my ethical compass at all- it's just the nature of the route.
In reply to Bulls Crack:
I agree in respect of an onsight or a flash. On routes, not boulders, it's about weighting the rope.
But ground up is more like the opposite of of a headpoint, or pre inspecting a route by abseil to check out gear placements, holds etc.. Whether you fall off or not is nothing to do with it.
I agree in respect of an onsight or a flash. On routes, not boulders, it's about weighting the rope.
But ground up is more like the opposite of of a headpoint, or pre inspecting a route by abseil to check out gear placements, holds etc.. Whether you fall off or not is nothing to do with it.
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