UKC

Hi all, wondering if anyone can help me....

I am in the Alps and, for the second year running, am suffering from a weird reaction illness to my first foray up "high". This is now day 9 of it, and i am confined to the valley barely able to go for a stroll or round the supermarket right now.

Within 48 hours of our first trip up (only a 7 hour day; to only 2500m, a few scrambles, a small abseil, some exposure etc - nothing much), I am foggy headed, shattered, feel frail & "nervous", and feel ill.
Last year, the same thing happened, but we had a bit of an "epic" on the first foray up, & it was generally accepted that the "epic" part of the trip caused my "illness". I recovered in 9 days; & subsequently summited three 4000ers in the following weeks. So we assumed it was just a "blip". This year, it's clearly not.

Has anyone else had an experience like this, and if so, what can be done about it, & what can I do to avoid these toxic reactions to a fine day out exercising in the Alps? I am a thoroughly fit person (winner, D Class at the OMM last autumn; 36 minutes for 10k 6 weeks ago, masses of hillwalking & climbing experience, etc). I do have diabetes (despite being very thin) and had serious 6 year bout of CFS/M.E. 1997 - 2004 from which I assume I'm recovered (though this seems similar if not identical). I have no history of stress-related or mental illness. I have summited nine 4000ers to date, with no "altitude" issues on any of them beyond normal puffing & panting. I'm 52.

Thanks in advance..... am concerned that this may halt my Alpine activity in the future ...

In reply to Phil Murray:

Has it only happened in the Alps? Have you by chance touched any plants to which you might have had a bad reaction? A friend of mine suffered similar symptoms each (well almost) time he came to climb over here (not high up, just valley rock) but we never really got to the bottom of it. The only things we could come up with were either contact with some plant or a reaction to more sun/heat than he was used to.

In reply to Phil Murray:

Sounds like exhaustion, is your sleeping and eating okay? Fit people are also tempted to push it harder, though sounds like that didn't contribute the second time?

In reply to jon:

Hi Jon, thanks for the reply. It was Val Veny last year, I'm currently near Gstaad; I don't think I've been near plants that have given me an adverse reaction, no .... lots of livestock though here. Was your friend "foggy" in the head too?

I think the combination of more sun & heat, whilst going "high", plus some "stress" (none in isolation should affect me, as I climb a lot, and I've had hot holidays elsewhere on many occasions, & long hill walking days - BUT in the UK that's usually in mist & cool!!!! - etc), could be the cause.... but it's still weird & trip-ruining & ... going on for too long.......!!!

In reply to jonnie3430:

Definitely sleeping like a baby - 12 hours last night! Eating I need to work on, I think we get used to just grabbing a roll at lunch & when out all day burning calories , it's not enough, especially as back home I'd have a more substantial lunch... we're cooking big suppers tho & last night I had seconds then fell asleep..... (no booze, either.....)

Thanks....!

In reply to Phil Murray:

I've never had such prolonged symptoms. But I have occasionally felt very ill due to not eating and drinking regularly enough on a climb. Dehydration + hypoglycemia + lack of oxygen is bad news. Could it be something to do with your glycemia (you say you have diabetes)? Or salt depletion maybe, which can be pretty devastating?

In reply to Phil Murray:

Aye, my rules go out the window and all the bad delights are enjoyed on a trip, open chewy sweets and continental haribo in a pocket for munching on, and over the top water consumption and cool clothes after nearly getting heat stroke on a glacier in Peru.

In reply to Phil Murray:


Foggy, I'm not sure - all I can say is that he wasn't his 'usual' self.
Near livestock - horse flies or other insects, perhaps?
I sympathise. Hope it sorts itself out.

In reply to Phil Murray:
The dangers of internet diagnoses, and so in an entirely unqualified way, have you considered heat exhaustion/stroke:

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Heat-exhaustion-and-heatstroke/Pages/Introduct...

In reply to Phil Murray:

I think the BMC have a medical department, which will probably know more about altitude related illness than regular GPs. It might be worth contacting them for advice.

In reply to Phil Murray:

Try a spoonful of salt and see how you feel. I felt something like you describe, just not recovering two days after a long hot day, and felt better in minutes.

Thanks all for your advice. Really appreciated, guys. I'll contact the BMC ("Climb Britain"?) too.

Yes - as a diabetic, I've been throwing out the "good" habits on the hill- powerade, choccy cereal bars, bananas etc, - as this isn't "normal" life..... I've been self-testing my blood sugar levels (with my diabetic kit) (as I did last year when the same thing happened), and they're as normal as usual, ie. a bit high, but they would be, as i'm unable to process sugar normally, because I'm a type 2 diabetic.

Salt - yep good idea..... i'll try that

I don't think I had heat stroke, but I've read that link, cheers.

I found this & have several symptoms, including the dry skin (on face / forehead) - totally realise I may be wrong, of course: http://adrenalfatiguesolution.com/adrenal-fatigue-symptoms/

- one of the things I noticed on our first foray up, was that we quickly found the going tougher than expected, and I had a novice with me, and I was not dealing with the "stress" of the situation as well & comfortably as I would expect to. Eg. I was worrying about possible accident outcomes like her tripping & falling off (it was an exposed ridge). So I wonder if adrenaline at altitude (2400m..... hmmm.....) wasn't firing normally ?

Anyway - back to my book & rest. Again, thanks all.

In reply to mysterion:

Maybe a bit drastic downing a teaspoonful of salt, and it may make you retch. I'd suggest a softer approach: make up a rehydration solution of 6 level teaspoons of Sugar and 1/2 a level teaspoon of Salt in a litre of water and sip at it till you feel better.

In reply to testagrigia:

Yes, good idea - I'll try that concoction.

I had a load of salt earlier & feel a bit better, but I've now had 2 days rest straight, so maybe I'm recovering naturally anyway.

In reply to Phil Murray:

Hi Phil, could it be a reaction to any medication you're currently taking with altitude and/or exertion?

Regards

Toby

In reply to Tobes:

Hi Tobes
I'm not on any medication at all, so no, i dont' think so.

my entire face & forehead is flaking off constantly, and before people shout "put on factor 50!" I've been using suncream & a sunhat the whole time I've been here, so it seems that's a symptom of what's gone wrong with me, too.

I've now written off the trip & will try to rest & enjoy the valley views before we go home. One disappointed partner

Thanks,
Phil

In reply to Phil Murray:

Hi Phil,

don't underestimate the effect of heat and dehydration, though your symptoms sound extreme.

Just wondering if you've had a thyroid test as this was a problem that manifested itself in my fifties and is now fully under control and doesn't affect me much as long as I take the thyroxine.

In reply to Phil Murray:

I had similar symptoms a couple of years ago which I put down to a mix of sunstroke & dehydration after a long walk on a very hot (>35°) sunny day just after arriving in the Pyrenees. That was at lower altitudes (1-2 000m) & I guess altitude would make matters worse. I felt a bit feverish in the evening, and very tired & weak for a few days afterwards.

Enjoy the rest of your trip even if you can't climb

In reply to Phil Murray:
Besides your flaking skin you have many of the symptoms associated with stress induced anxiety.
The foggy head, feeling shattered etc are all typical reactions to a situation which we have worries about. The fact that they happened last year and then went away only to return when you went back to the Alps seems to fit this theory.
You can experience these symptoms just thinking about the situation - in fact the symptoms are often stronger when not engaged in the stressful activity but when just thinking about it.
It's a vicious cycle in that you want to do something but this makes you feel ill so then you worry about not being able to do it and so you feel unwell again.
It is all in the head but that doesn't mean you aren't feeling unwell. It's amazing what stress can do to the body.
This diagnosis comes with the usual caveats attached to internet medecine,
Heat,maltitude,metc might also play some part but they aren't the main reason.

In reply to Phil Murray:


Don't have any more useful medical suggestions other than those already made, it doesn't fit with anything I have experienced, but just to commiserate with your disappointment. Certainly I don't suffer from excessive sun impact as I turn virtually black, dehydration is a different matter.

It happens though - Alpine trips can fail for all sorts of reasons - weather, conditions, lack of preparation or planning or just sheer bloody bad luck.


Understandable, but he/she just has to deal with it. It is clear that it is not "your fault" and is the last thing you would want, but there is bugger all, currently, that you can do about it.

Hope you make some progress with whatever is causing it and it can be treated/ameliorated.

Better luck next year mate.

In reply to Simon4:

As Baron suggested, the first thing I thought of was a panic attack.
Also might be a common viral infection you've picked up, I had a recent inner ear infection that made me feel weak and dizzy.

Best go see your GP and explain your symptoms. I suspect they'll find nothing wrong with you though (...as is always the way!)

In reply to Phil Murray:


What is the effect of just going for a high altitude walk? In a relaxed situation, light, wearing nothing on your feet but trainers and carrying only a light sack, with no real exposure?

If that is OK, it MAY be linked to the route stress.

In reply to Simon4:

I wish I knew! we had a good 6 hour nice easy-ish (tho quite hot) walk on sunday to only 2100m, & I felt fine! the next day I felt ropey & we made the mistake of "battling though" it (I hadn't given up at this point) and did a big via ferrata, which I know is safe, and I enjoyed the exposure, and the ease of the "climbing" on rungs......

.... next day, BAMM. Game over. hideously foggy headed & full of malaise all day. Still suffering. Not inclined to go up high any time soon....

Appreciate the post, thanks.

In reply to Dell:

Well I don't remember panicking, just being more stressed & worried on the ridge than I should have been.

by 6pm that day, we were sat on a balcony with cold beers, revelling in our great day out & how we'd overcome the scary bits - I was totally relaxed, if knackered, and then a Jacuzzi, then food & wine & sleep......

Then 10 days' illness.

I had a brief 48 hour sore throat virus a week before, which may well explain some of this, I guess.

In reply to Phil Murray:

Well not being medically qualified, but having a fair bit of experience of altitude (and being suddenly hit by it, like bulldozer suddenly hitting you from behind), this certainly sounds like a real medical problem. The difficulty will be finding out exactly what it is, it will probably be quite elusive and never show itself to any medical professional when required.

Almost certainly best to get to see someone who understands something about high altitude and exertion, medical generalists are either likely to struggle to understand or to be dismissive at worst. In the meantime, try to enjoy high level walks etc if they can be done, and not to think too much of the trip as a waste. You ARE in magnificent high mountains at any rate.

In reply to Simon4:

Thanks mate, appreciate that. "Real medical problem" - yep I agree, though I wish I didn't have to.

Sadly I've got worse, despite 2 days' rest, & we're giving it 48 hours before getting me on a flight home to see my GP.

Lets hope those 48 hours see an improvement - I feel like i've got full-blown CFS ("M.E.") again today.

Phil

In reply to Phil Murray:

Not directly related to your previous health, but I know someone whose bipolar condition is triggered by a combination of altitude and tiredness, even a hard day on the piste in winter seems to effect it.

In reply to Phil Murray:


That is within the range for altitude sickness, and apparently some people who are especially susceptible to it can start experiencing it around 2000m.

If it is altitude-related, you might just need to plan to acclimatize more slowly. And it seems to be advised to avoid strenuous activities during your first day at altitude; maybe something that would be an easy day for you lower down was enough to overload things.


Total wild speculation, but maybe the past CFS/ME has left you more susceptible in some way, and means that your system might react to physiological stressors with CFS-ish symptoms?

There's an unfortunate neurological phenomenon called "kindling" where the brain basically gets "good" at doing things like having seizures, so it gets easier and easier for them to be triggered.

It does sound like you had a pile-up of physiological stressors (altitude plus a long walk in the heat on the first day, plus pushing on the next day while feeling "ropey", plus a recent virus, plus some stress). Maybe none of them would have been a problem individually, but together they were too much.

Maybe that's been enough to make the old symptoms flare up a bit?

Hope you're doing better soon.

In reply to Phil Murray:

not wanting to harp on but I think the first hints I had of thyroid problems hit me in the aftermath of climbing the Jungfrau - I went into a period of unusual exhaustion during the glacier crossing - we had to stop impossibly frequently on the way across to the hut (this was after performing well on the climb and hard part of the descent - I just hit a wall and had no steam and seemed to have lost the ability to get steam up despite the route being well within my abilities for a not long Alpine day)

In reply to Phil Murray:

Ask your GP - or even better find a GP who is listed as having the DiMM, DipMtnMed or FAWM. They will have an insight into altitude sickness and other outdoorsy weirdness

In reply to TT999:

THanks for that - I will investigate on my return to the UK.

In reply to slab_happy:

Thanks for that reply - just about everything you say makes sense to me. Especially this bit:
"Total wild speculation, but maybe the past CFS/ME has left you more susceptible in some way, and means that your system might react to physiological stressors with CFS-ish symptoms?

There's an unfortunate neurological phenomenon called "kindling" where the brain basically gets "good" at doing things like having seizures, so it gets easier and easier for them to be triggered"

That would explain so much......!!

I had high hopes prior to the trip, due to running near-pbs at 10km on the last 6 weeks (36:44 then 37:46) (age nearly 52!!!) - but they were on cool evenings in the UK (Bristol), not at altitude, in the hot sun, with scary moves & long drags up scree etc. And "flashing 6a+ onsight" doesn't prepare you for this sort of Alpine day out, either......

My brain fogginess has cleared a lot today, so I'm moving in the right direction..... will build up slowly, the forecast in Bernese Oberland is excellent next week so hopefully I can enjoy the awesome views......

cheers
Phil