UKC

As per the title - how much stuff (food, extra layers, emergency kit etc) do you take with you on a properly long rock route? And how do you divide it between climbers - a bag each or second carrying everything? I'm based in East Anglia, so I don't get the opportunity to get on all-day routes very often; I worry that I still tend to get my rambler head on and chuck the kitchen sink in, but I also don't want to be that guy who gets benighted in a storm at 3000m with just a t-shirt and half a Mars Bar.

Assume that the length / difficulty of the route is such that it's basically going to take you all day apart from a couple of hours walking in and out. And assume that there's no snow and ice on the route or the approach and that the weather is nice but not totally predictable - I've particularly got the Pyrenees in mind, but the climate high up there seems fairly similar to UK summer.

Thanks!

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Belay jacket (typically on harness, for spring/summer/autumn I'll use a Patagucci Nano Puff) per person, 1L water (refill near base of route/at convenient intervals post route), approach shoes, bit of lunch and maybe an little extra food. All in a small bag that the second gets stuck with.

If possible to leave kit at the base of the route, then do so and take some extra food/water/layers. If not, then the leader gets to carry a virtually empty bag.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Last time i did anything big; 1300m route in Oman. 17 Hours - up and over, tent to tent, high likelihood of a bivvy, but we got away without it.

First off - cut down on the climbing gear! Single rope eased faff massively. Skinny quickdraws and extendable dragon cams helped lots. Don't forget tat and a knife for setting abseils though.

Topo!
4.5L water each - some electrolyte tablets for flavour and hydration - drank all of it max temp of 28C)
Suncream.
Light downie each.
Headtorch.
Bag of peanuts or cashews each - high calorie density.
5x energy gels - 2x caffeinated.
2x chewy bars.
Money for the taxi back to the tent/car.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

An all day rock route, usually approach shoes, an extra layer and a few chewy bars. One small bag carried by the second. For walk in carry rack on bandolier and ropes over the shoulder to avoid extra baggage. Start early, and be first on the route !

In reply to Ally Smith:



Not sure about that. Doubles, either halfs or twins, would get you down quicker in an emergency. IMO this is where twin ropes come into their own. More flexibility without a huge weight penalty.

Al

In reply to Ramblin dave:

This book has some useful thoughts:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/High-Advanced-Multi-Pitch-Climbing-ebook/dp/B00UJG...

In reply to Ramblin dave:

All day mountain route. Belay jacket, water and first aid kit. I asked this question a few weeks back look at my posts

In reply to Ramblin dave:

It rather depends upon anticipated weather changes. In the main, very flexible thin layers that I can tie around my waist without getting in the way (baselayer, synthetic tee-shirt, synthetic long sleeve shirt, thin woolen jumper, pertex smock). The last three all tie unobtrusively around my waist, or I can climb wearing them all. One or more of the layers may be left behind if it's not cold. If it's very cold or windy, then add a buff and skinny gloves. Really cold, add a light down jacket in the small pack that the second carries (shoes, jackets, water, food, two tiny headtorches, guidebook). If rain is a possibility then then about a very lightweight waterproof instead of the jacket, or doing something else.

In reply to GridNorth:

We were committed to the up-and-over ascent and knew there was a walk off descent, so abseiling would have been emergency tactics only.

We used a skinny 80m single so had some options for 40m abseils if needed, and could do some massive pitches to keep the speed up.

In reply to Ally Smith:

Fair enough sounds as if you had it covered but as a heads up, I have done several routes, Ailfroide and the Ecrin spring immediately to mind, where the abseil has been 50 or even 60 metres, free hanging and I've only just reached the next bolts with twins. In these situations it was difficult to see an alternative.

Al

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Montane smock and a packet of werthers originals will suffice for most british multi-pitch routes

In reply to Chris the Tall:


Are the Werthers on wire or rope?

In reply to Ramblin dave:

It depends
- where
- time of year
- forecast
- reliability of forecast
- how easy/hard the route is for me

25 pitches in summer in south Spain with set fair weather and well within my grade would be head torch and a fleece.

25 pitches in the Alps in winter with a tight weather window and unstable forecast and at my limit would be, well, not started for one thing!

Generally if there's any chance of freezing to death I will have a bivi bag, foul weather gear and quite a bit of spare clothing. Cock ups are fine, but they do need to be survivable. I'm not bothered about uncomfortable - that's part of learning for next time!

In reply to GridNorth:



Depends. I've found in the Alps, and especially on a retreat from Mount Kenya in a blizzard, shorter single ropes are faster than two twins. The time you lose setting up belays and swapping over is easily cancelled out by time lost in untangling ropes, retrieving stuck ropes etc.

The exception would be on smooth walls like Yosemite, where you usually don't need to coil the rope, and anchors are harder to find.

In reply to JJL:

Glad someone mentioned a head torch... with the size and weight of these new LEDs there is no excuse. You can often keep going after dark (or start early) if things are obvious.

In reply to Fredt:
Well it's "horses for courses" but you would have been in deep trouble on some of the routes like those I mentioned. A couple of metres with your feet touching the wall then mid air for 50 metres. Twins will get you out of more situations than a single, that's all I'm saying.

Al

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Long ropes.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Up to 500m (but depending on difficulty) I would reckon on half litre water each, pertex wind-cheater, and an energy bar. Photocopy your topo to carry a single sheet; a camera copy works but fussy zooming in to the right part. If shoes have to be carried each can carry their own - fell running shoes are v light. Maillons & rapp cord good insurance.

Longer routes, greater difficulty, alpine etc fall into another cat.

In reply to Hat Dude:

I find that polos are lighter. Due to the holes.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

On the Westgrat on the Salbit (36 pitches) a few weeks ago we walked in from the road (normally you go from hut/bivi but we couldn't due to an earlier partner misdemeanour).

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=101018

This seemed to work ok (back to the car the same evening):

Ultra Light fell shoes carried on harness of each person
2 sacs to carry kit up in, one lighter sac with no back panel (crux 35l)
Fold the light sac into the one with a back panel (north face 35l shadow)
2 60m 8mm ish ropes (depending on route would be happy with one, but there's at least one big ab on this)
Take a rack as big as you need to climb quickly, confidently and safely. Don't over strip the rack, better confident in your rack than runout, nervous and slow.
Block pitch leading of about 6 or 7 pitches
Second carries the sac
Headtorch each (walked in, and out in the dark)
Nuts and raisins in your pockets to eat at every belay
I think I had 400g of nuts and raisins, two salami sausages, a couple of energy bars and a small pack of sweets
Heat sheets or similar bivvy bag each for emergency
One light down or synthetic jacket each with hoods
Lightweight thermals
2 litres of water each, top up at every opportunity but no water available on route until descent.
A good few metres of tat
Some ultra-emergency food that'll make you feel good when you don't (beef jerky for me)
Knife, very small first aid kit with painkillers, finger tape
Disposable Handwarmer for your chalk bag if it gets cold
Phone with topo on it
Suncream/sunglasses

The sac was quite a pain on this for the second but it is what it is! Gets lighter as you run out of water!

A bivvy wouldn't have been fun, but we'd have survived.

Tactics obviously always depend on the route and conditions, and style you want to climb in. Sometimes I might haul, even for a day route of a few pitches.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Thanks, everyone! Some really useful stuff here.

Obviously routes vary and conditions vary and people vary but it's good to get an idea of peoples' approaches.

Re single ropes - I'd always assumed that you'd want double ropes if you were doing a mountain route with long pitches (or with short pitches that you might want to run together) if only for reasons of rope drag. Is that not as much of an issue as I'd thought?

In reply to Ramblin dave:

if the climbing is not complex a single rope is faster - less mess at belays

In reply to Ramblin dave:


I'd certainly go doubles every time. The ability to do wandering long pitches more efficiently, the full length abseil option and, if one rope is stuck or damaged you still have a rope. Its one cutting down kit option I really wouldn't consider unless I really knew the route was amenable (which usually means a bolted route which is rigged for single ropes)

In reply to Ramblin dave:
I don't carry the really annoying HUGE Wired Lake district guidebook or the new HUGE Borrowdale one.....

In reply to Jim 1003:


They'd be pretty much dead weight in the Pyrenees anyway, unless I was expecting to get seriously off route! Although the guidebook for the area in question is a bit of a brick itself. We're probably going to do a fair bit of photocopying before heading off.

Anyway, let's not start that argument again.

In reply to LeeWood:

This summer around Piz Badile we simply took a picture of the topos with our mobile phones and had a quick look on the screen when needed. Worked fine.

In reply to GrahamD:

A 60m half rope weights 3.5kg
No where else can you save that amount of weight. That said, if you don't need to cut weight, then take two for sure.

In reply to zimpara:



and on top of that, a single is less faff at belays, you can belay with a grigri (shock horror), use a micro trax to move together......

even if you have to carry a half on your back to rap with, a single is faster if the climbing is non-complex (by that I mean simple crack systems or bolts). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think El Cap has been done in sub 24 hours with double ropes.

In reply to Ramblin dave:
Some questions to consider:

Will you need to bivvy? Hence do you need bivvy gear and if so how comfortable do you want to be?

Is the weather good enough? If not, should you really be doing an all day route in the first place? What's the descent like if you need to bivvy quickly?

A couple of days ago on the Gervasutti Pillar, an 800m Alpine route between 3,400m and 4,200m, the main weight in the sacks was mountaineering boots (we mostly climbed in rock shoes as that was quicker), crampons and axe (could have saved over a kilo by taking lightweight ski touring crampons and axe if we'd known there was no mixed climbing on the route itself at the moment, just a snow plod approach and descent.

I took 1L of water, should have taken 1.5L like my partner did. A few bars, no actual food. No time to eat it anyway. Belay jacket - wasn't really needed but just in case we got benighted. Thin gloves for climbing in on cold rock (a few pitches were quite cold) and thicker gloves for the approach (was a warm night so wasn't really needed). The usual essentials - altimeter, small medical kit, main headtorch plus a lightweight spare, whistle, etc. Would take a map and compass if not familiar with the area ( or if visibility is poor but then wouldn't be on that route anyway).

Did it on one 60m 8.5mm rope. Worked fine as most of the climbing was roughly in a straight line, we weren't generally placing a lot of gear, all our extenders were 60cm slingdraws and all our cams were the extendable DMM Dragons.

In reply to zimpara:


If you want to take that approach, don't take a rope at all.

But for me the rope is about the only thing I can't do without in the mountains for climbing. Other things I can improvise: harness ? bowline round the waist; Gear ? run the rope around spikes; Long abseil with short rope ? oops

In reply to Ramblin dave:


It really depends. Granite mountain routes tend to follow cracks, and with them rope drag is rarely a problem (unless you place too much protection). And as was pointed out, a single rope is a lot easier to handle (and thus quicker). Naturally if there is need for rappels, then twin or half ropes would be a good idea (full length rappels possible). I've used half ropes, a single rope and also a thin single rope (triple rated one) plus a pull cord (actually a thin half/twin rope).

Oh, and if you're linkin' easier shorter pitches together... perhaps simul-climbing them might also be an option (and a lot quicker). In which case a single rope is the best option (30 to 40m between climbers). Oh, and carry a few Tiblocks/Micro Traxions (might carry them anyway, especially on routes where majority of the climbing is easy and only a few hard pitches...).

In reply to GrahamD:

Using double ropes for me is more about the descent, either planned or otherwise, than the actual climbing. Many years ago I got into a very dangerous situation on the North Face of the Eiger when my partner and I got caught in a storm. If that wasn't bad enough my partner had a broken leg and we had to descend from Death Bivouac in thunder, lightning snow and intense rock fall. If we had been using a single rope we would never have made it, as it was we escaped with the skin of our teeth because we able to make long abseils and use two ropes to rig for me to lower him when necessary.

Al

In reply to Misha:




Yeah, I think the big thing that I need to work out better is how much stuff I need to carry to:
a) be reasonably comfortable (and not make bad decisions because of cold or hunger) if things go roughly according to plan and
b) not die or lose extremities if things don't go according to plan.

Obviously both of these depend on a load of stuff, but the comments here are definitely interesting reading.

In reply to David Coley:

It definitely has been.

In reply to Ramblin dave:
I made a belay bag, a dry bag with belt loops sewn on that goes on an old chalk bag belt. Long alpine rock routes means it is has featherlite or fleece, biscuits and guidebook. In winter it has biscuits , guidebook and warm gloves (will do a version that fits my das, though not sure how big/practical it'll be.)

Hanging it of the waist means less load on the shoulders than if I was carrying a rucsac (reduces moment about toes or front points)

I also string water bottles with Prusik cord held in place with duck tape that can be clipped on back loops for long routes. Energy juice in it so I don't have to carry food. I've just thought of a winter flask that can be clipped onto back loops which I'll make for this season, probably best having bubble wrap around all for protection and extra insulation.

Other random things that can be included are stuff from my rucsac left at the bottom of the route, such as car key (a friend fell off with one in a pocket and it broke a rib) torch, compass (met a couple of blokes that spent the night in the loch an basin once after they topped out on fiacaill buttress in cloud and couldn't find their way back to their bags.)

I should add that I'll dump as much as I can in my rucsac somewhere I can pick it on my way back down if possible, if you have to carry all on a route at your limit it usually goes to the second and just isn't pleasant, so I'll try to stash somewhere.

In reply to GrahamD:

Let me get this right! You want to weight save and leave 1.2kgs worth of rack, so you can take a full 60m abseil weighting 7kgs?
If you rely on a rope running around a spike exclusively for protection, add to that, a bowline round the waist-You'll die you know. With your experience, surely you know better?

You can get lifted off a mountain- but you want to be alive for that.

In reply to zimpara:

I think Graham is right, if the route (lots of big ones do) requires abseils to get off, then half ropes are the way forward, if there is a chance of retreat by abseil due to weather, conditions or crowds then again half ropes win.

I've also tried 8.1mm halves to save weight and found they were too stretchy for falling or prusiking so would go for an 8.4 or 8.6 any day.

In reply to zimpara:

It's not all about weight. If the route requires two 50m free-hanging abseil in a row to get down, then you are going to need two 50m ropes. There is no getting round this, and it isn't contrived because that's how many routes are bolted. The rope is the first and most important part of climbing gear if you actually want to protect the climb. A harness, rack etc. are useless without a rope, but most things can be improvised if you have a rope. You cannot climb protected without a rope. You cannot retreat protected without a rope. Everything relies on the rope. 7kg is more than two half ropes anyway.


You've obviously never successfully used the terrain alone for protection. I've only really used this technique effectively on a single trip where my friend led me on a route in the Alps. It was surprisingly effective on the spiky ridge; I've never really found it useful in N Wales because everything is just too small. It is no good on actual routes when moving together because they are too clean of random spiky bits of rock; it was great on the hundreds of metres of broken stuff on the approach (but with all the exposure of the Alps).

While it is obviously not as good as a harness claiming that bowline round the waist is death is just silly. It might be perfectly adequate for abseiling, and you can always tie some leg loops as well. People used to take lead falls doing that; cavers still regularly use load-bearing belts for belaying on ladders (and I have held people in belts on two occasions doing that without either dying).


You can't always get lifted off a mountain. It is precisely when you can't (bad weather) that you might want to make a retreat at full speed...

How much Alpine mountaineering have you done to be giving all this advice? I have done barely any and therefore if those who have say a rope is the most important thing, and give good arguments as to why this is the case, I am inclined to believe them.

In reply to zimpara:

Lets get this right: you want to save weight, judgeing from all your previous posts, almost to the point of excess. I only want to save uneccessary weight. To me a pair of ropes are neccessary weight, whereas half my rack is not (especially screw gates - leave those behind).

In reply to matt perks:




Guess I should have said the vast majority of NIADs use a single!

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Re single vs. double ropes.

1. People seem to be talking about different things. The North Face of the Eiger is one thing, a long crack system at low altitude is very different. What is wrong with horses for courses? One size does not fit all I would suggest.

2. Using a single rope to climb with does not mean not taking a second rope to ab with. Although this might seem strange, carrying the second rope on your back is common in North America. This means you get all the advantages of the speed of a single (simul climbing with a trax, less mess at belays, gri-gri belaying), but still have an easy life on the raps. On many long routes (i.e. 6+ pitches) most pitches are easy relative to the crux (or I'd never get up them), so the rope on the back of the leader doesn't really create an issue, then on the crux pitch convert to double ropes so you don't have the weight on your back and you have a wider choice of gear placements etc. This really doesn't seem controversial.

In reply to David Coley:
Spot on.

For big routes, one rope or two is a case by case decision. Are there abseils over 30m and/or might you need to retreat? Do the pitches weave around a lot? Will you need to move together? Is there a high risk of stonefall and hence rope damage?

An extra rope is extra weight on the walk in and out (the extra weight doesn't really matter for the actual climbing, unless you're doing something very hard). The extra weight on the walk in isn't really an issue in England and Wales (as long as you're fit) but perhaps it's more of a consideration for big Scottish walk ins. In the Alps it's much more of an issue. An extra rope is also more faff. Again, more of a issue for the Alps or anywhere with big routes, especially if moving together is involved.

I always use two half ropes for winter climbing though and I think most people do. Lower impact force, plus runners can be all over the place so drag can be an issue.