UKC

Hello

This is in regards to sport climbing specifically. I led a route the other day where the belayer had to stand on top of and very close to the edge of a rather dubious slippy mossy very steep loose rocky hill thing, seeings as I didn't want them to fall whilst belaying I concocted the following:

Using a 70m rope to climb a ~15m route so plenty of slack,
1)Tied a figure of 8 on a bite right at the end of the dead end of the rope that was coiled on the floor
2)climbed up to the first bolt of the neighbouring route and put a quickdraw in it clipped the loop of the figure 8 knot
3)climbed back down, tied another fig.8 on a bite and clipped the leg and waist hoop of the belayer through a screwgate krab and clipped the loop of the second fig.8 through this, leaving enough rope between him and the quickdraw for him to move around a bit but not go off the edge of the steep hill thing.

Then I just climbed as normal on the other end of the rope and set up a top rope for them and clipped the safety rope myself when I belayed.

Does this sound alright? Fig 8 is the only knot I know but I gather it's hard as nails so presumed this was a "bomb-proof" setup....

Thanks. how long-winded- sorry.

In reply to elliot.baker:
What you did (if I'm understanding correctly) is perfectly safe, but personally I'd have just clipped into the belay loop rather than the waist/leg loops.

In reply to elliot.baker:

Was your free climbing up to the first bolt of a neighbouring route really the safer option between your belayer just belaying in the poor stance? As soon as you clipped the first bolt (on your line) your belayer is attached to you and has no chance of going down the hill if either of you fell.

In reply to Removed User:

True true... I just had this scarily thought through image of me taking a lead fall and then him tripping off the edge and letting go of the rope and us both ending in a pile at the bottom! I'm sure that outcome is physically possible and wanted to avoid that.

In reply to deacondeacon yeah I guess that makes no difference and would be fine too, we might have actually done that.

Say if there are belay bolts at the bottom of a sport route on a ledge for safety, does it matter if you use dynamic rope to clip into these or could you use something static like a metolious personal anchor system or a sling/krab? I presum static is OK as the climbers rope will provide all the dynamicness needed in the system?

In reply to Removed User:

I'd rather not be ripped off a route by a falling belayer. If it's a easy climb that he felt comfortable doing why not? You always have to climb to the first bolt anyway unless you have a clipstick.

In reply to elliot.baker:

Would have been easier just to climb up to the first clip of your own route and put a screwgate through that and clipped in. Back down to the belayer, pull your rope right through and tied back into the belayer harness. He's then secure to belay you while you clip your first draw onto the screw gate you just set.

In reply to elliot.baker:

Set up seems fine to me if a bit unconventional.

If it was a big drop instead of a slope though then you need to learn about building belays.

In reply to elliot.baker:

I have had similar situations and my setup is:

Tie belayer into the dead end of rope with standard fig 8 thru harness. Climb to first bolt and put in a screwgate and quickdraw. Attach belayer rope to screwgate with an italian hitch. This is a basic belay setup and well worth learning

The italian hitch is the most basic knot there is but is probably the best knot i know for building belays

In reply to minty1984:

Do you mean clove hitch?

Or if not, can you elaborate - I don't quite see how your setup works?

In reply to elliot.baker:


Putting a biner through the tie off points of a harness isn't a great idea - you're likely to cross-load the biner. Better just to clip the belay loop, as deacondeacon said.

In reply to elliot.baker:

Ultimately your call in situations like this. Only you and your partner were in a position to judge what the safest of the many alternatives actually was, or whether doing that particular climb was worrth the trouble. There is no one "right way".

In reply to elliot.baker:

Sounds fine to me if not a bit of a faff.

I would have take a spare sling from a screwgate on the first bolt down and had the belayer attach their cows tails to it (via another screwgate). There would still be space to quickdraw the first bolt also.

In reply to climbwhenready:

Apologies. Yes I do mean clove hitch.

I always get the name of those two knots mixed up!

In reply to elliot.baker:

Thanks for the input. I have another q tho, if there are "double belay bolts" at the bottom of a climb to prevent the belayer from falling, how should you use these? Would using something like a metolious PAS be OK or just a bit of rope? Do you have to equalise them?

Is building belays a trad term or a sport climbing thing as well? I've never climbed multipitch so if it pertains to that that's why I don't know about it. Thanks again

In reply to elliot.baker:

There are a million different ways of building a belay on a set of double bolts. Everyone has their preferred methods. The best answer is to keep things as simple as possible when building belays. This leaves less room for error.

Setups must be equalized when you are using 2 or more anchor points. The term "building a belay" is the same whether you are trad or sport climbing and the principles are the same also.

It would be best to ask someone to show you at your local climbing wall the different ways of building belays with your feet safely on the ground! There are too many ways to explain in a post on here and also getting it right is very very important.

In reply to elliot.baker:

>"Does this sound alright?"

Yes, it was fine. Improvements that could be made...
1) Belayer ties in to dead end of the rope with normal fig8 knot as if he was going to lead.
2) Clip belayers rope through a screwgate on adjacent route's bolt.
3) Clip belayers tie-in rope loop with a screwgate.
4) Clove-hitch returning rope (from the bolt) to the screwgate in the belayers tie-in rope loop.

In reality, I'd probably have been happy to use quickdraws rather than screwgates in that sort of situation you described and if i wasn't sure how to do a clove hitch a fig8 knot is bomber (though less easily adjustable).

In reply to elliot.baker:

>"if there are "double belay bolts" at the bottom of a climb to prevent the belayer from falling, how should you use these?"

1) Belayer ties in to dead end of the rope with normal fig8 knot as if he was going to lead.
2) Clove-hitch belayers rope to a screwgate on first bolt.
3) Adjust to desired length appropriate to the stance.
4) Leave a small loop of slack before tying a second clove-hitch to a screwgate on second bolt.
5) Clip belayers tie-in rope loop with a screwgate.
6) Clove-hitch returning rope (from the second bolt) to the screwgate in the belayers tie-in rope loop.
7) Adjust to desired length appropriate to the stance and equalized with other bolt.

In reply to JLS:

Thanks, sounds complicated though! Think I'll take the advice to wait til I'm shown this in person rather than using trial and error!

In reply to elliot.baker:

Yeah, it'll all be very straight forward once you've seen it done...

In reply to elliot.baker:

JLS is right. It sounds complicated but the methods are simple once you see them. The method JLS deacribed is the one i use most of the time too. Easy to setup and adjust and takes no time at all