UKC

Should people with prams and pushchairs be allowed to push them around indoor walls, or are they a safety issue?
Saw an incident at the weekend where a belayer suddenly found themselves with a pushchair about a foot behind them, and the parent asking to get through. Belayer pointed out that it wasn't really a safe thing to do, and was told in reply that 'the wall allow it, if you don't like the policy, take it up with them'.

I've seen a number of times at different locations, parents leaving or pushing their kids around with no regard for climbers or belayers. I'm all for encouraging new people into climbing, and getting the kids interested is great for our sport, but I'm beginning to think that we don't really need extra obstacles when we climb; it's tricky enough when there are unsupervised kids bombing about, and well meaning parents standing in the way to watch their kids ("you might not want to stand there, that's an auto belay above you.."); having to contend with pushchairs as well just makes things a bit more hazardous.

In reply to two_tapirs:

They make great portaledges.

In reply to two_tapirs:

The only people who should be standing in the Belaying zones below a climbing wall are climbers who've just lowered off / about to start a climb and their belayer's.

Anyone or anything else should be well out of the way as they have no purpose being there / create a trip hazard. The only real acceptation is weighted ballast bags for light belayers, and personally I'm not keen on those being left around either, I've nearly tripped over them several times.

What wall allows you to push a pram around climbers while they are belaying? I've never seen it happen myself and I'd hope anyone would be sensible enough to realise it's a bad idea. Just wait until one gets taken out when a belayer suddenly has to step back or is pulled forward etc, then I think they might change their mind on the issue.

In reply to two_tapirs:

Inconsiderate people (with or without a pushchair) -> potential problem.

Considerate people (with or without a pushchair) -> probably not a problem.

Hope this helps.

In reply to two_tapirs:

No problem with pushchairs at the wall as long as they're somewhere where there is no chance at all of obstructing a climber or a belayer. Or the occupant crying loudly enough to hinder communication.


Parent can f*ck right off in this case.

What some parents fail to understand, and walls perhaps don't make clear enough, is that a climbing wall is a place where safety-critical activiites are carried out and the people involved in them have absolute priority. Would they blithely push their pushchairs around a building site?

In reply to two_tapirs:
I would suggest that for any child in a climbing wall that may require adult attention immediately (either a baby that may cry, or a toddler or child below about age 8 depending on maturity that may run around or do something dangerous), there should be another adult who will at no time leave the ground nor be belaying or involved in any other activity they cannot cease immediately to attend to the child.

The best solution to this is most likely to climb in a three, so one adult is spare to deal with the child at any given point.

I have no issue with prams provided they do not cause an obstruction. I do have a problem with belayers who have something possibly requiring their attention that isn't belaying.

In reply to Neil Williams:




No prizes for guessing that you are not a parent

If you have a suitable child you can get them to tail the belay rope which gives them something to do while they are not actually climbing.

Babies don't tend to get into much trouble by themselves. If they start crying just lower the climber down and go sort them out.

It's toddlers you've got to really keep an eye on.

In reply to two_tapirs:
Personally I think a climbing wall is no place for children too small to climb. I suppose you could make an exception for supervised children in the cafe.

Small children able to climb should be climbing and under proper supervision, not running round underneath people.

The only time I have injured myself was bouldering with some unsupervised little @#$& who ran under me as I fell. I landed awkwardly to avoid him.

Edit tailing the rope is fine.

In reply to MeMeMe:

I would find a crying baby very disturbing when climbing. If I was belaying it would also be a distraction. If you have to bring a baby to the wall, come as a group and take it in turns to look after it would be the considerate thing to do.

In reply to two_tapirs:

Which wall is this?

In reply to timjones:


Was that entirely necessary? Their point was fair enough.

In reply to timjones:

I'm not, but that makes no difference. Safety is paramount at a climbing wall. Convenience is secondary. A belayer cannot concentrate fully on the one task they are meant to be doing if another thing (their child) may distract them.

Children are welcome in climbing walls, indeed to be encouraged, but they must be supervised adequately by someone who isn't doing something else.

In reply to John_Hat:

Quite agree. Also he is a Scout Leader so has some clue about children and supervision.

In reply to marsbar:

And a parent is evolved to respond to their upset child at the expense of other tasks, like paying attention to belaying.

It is *very* hard for a parent to ignore their upset child as, if they are belaying, they must do.

In reply to marsbar:


I've had something similar, though fortunately the kid moved just in time in response to my shout to get out of the way. Had I landed on him I would certainly have killed him - a toddler's body is not designed to take 18 stone falling on it from 6 foot in the air. I'd have had to live with that.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I can sympathise.

In reply to two_tapirs:

I assume my disliker is one of those dreadful people who have children and inflict them on everyone else with some nonsense about freedom of expression, which actually means I can't be bothered to look after or discipline them and I'd rather be doing my own thing anyway.

In reply to marsbar:

The only time the parents are likely to be climbing is when the baby is asleep anyway, so the you'll only be 'very disturbed' for a minute if it cries when it wakes up (the time it takes to lower off, untie and remove baby to somewhere else).

A bit of give an take between people makes the world a better place.

Babies at the wall are pretty much a non-issue anyway aren't they? I can count on the fingers of one hand (or maybe two hands) the times I've seen one in what must be hundreds if not thousands of times I've been to a climbing wall.

Not that non-problems stop the moaning of the Victor Mildrews on here though!

In reply to two_tapirs:


Was the floor marked out with a belaying area, and if so was the pushchair encroaching on that zone or the belayer stepping out of the zone?

In reply to two_tapirs:

Old-school climbing danger...

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/ea/89/88/ea8988a1828a7f139565eb7d...

New-school climbing danger...

http://www.online4baby.com/arinclude/dl/uploads/wpmainl/mainimagelarge_1775...

In reply to MeMeMe:

I love babies, but the noise a baby makes for very good evolutionary reasons is probably one of the most difficult sounds to ignore. I don't want to be climbing or belaying with that sound even for a minute. To inflict that on people who are trying to concentrate is selfish.

In reply to marsbar:


More likely just someone who disagrees with what you've said or the tone. I do and I'm childless, I don't even much like children (it wasn't me though).

OP: It never ceases to amaze me how people find ways to come into conflict over trivia.
jk

In reply to jkarran:

If they disagree why not explain? Thats the idea surely?

In reply to marsbar:

Yeah, that frustrates me too.

I just think people with kids have a tough job to do, if they want to get on with doing stuff they enjoy with the kids in tow then I'm happy, within reason and despite finding kids irritating in large doses to accommodate.
jk

In reply to jkarran:

Anywhere else I would agree, and I love taking kids climbing, but I'm scared that a baby screaming might distract me from what I'm doing and kids running round are dangerous.

In reply to marsbar:
maybe they are busy looking after their kids instead of explaining themselves on ukc....?

In reply to marsbar:

You know why people don't take their babies to the wall?
Because it's a pain in the bum that's why.

Nobody takes their baby to the wall unless they are desperate to climb.
They don't do it very often (probably only once or twice ever as you really don't get much climbing done).
They don't do it for for long (you need to time your climbing for when the little darling is asleep).
If they've got any sense they'll only do it when the wall is pretty much deserted.

Go on, have a little empathy for someone else, I promise it won't kill you, you might even like it.

In reply to two_tapirs:

Not pushchair age but young children all the same (7 years old) and sort of relevant to this thread.

http://www.camptocamp.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=292936 A quick summary: man and friend plus two kids go climbing at le Fayet. Man leads then lowers off. In the meantime the kids have untied the knot that attaches the end of the rope to the rope bag. The rope is too short. The rope goes through the device and man falls 4 metres. Result one broken vertebrae and a broken heel. Who's at fault? Lots of opinions as you'd expect:

Should un-supervised kids be there?
Should the kids have been told not to touch stuff?
Should the belayer have double checked the knot was still there?
Should the climber have read the topo better and realised his rope was too short?

In reply to John_Hat:


That parents shouldn't climb unless they take a third person to look after their child?

It's perfectly possible to climb with a child without taking a babysitter as long as you have a reasonable amount of experience.

In reply to Neil Williams:



If anyone is unable to belay safely when they have a child with them then I would question whether they were safe to belay at any time.

In reply to timjones:

If your child is with you and not disturbing others then fine. Unfortunately that isn't my experience in general.

In reply to marsbar:

They probably can't be bothered to explain...

For what it's worth I agree. In general I think that well supervised children are very welcome at any climbing wall.

However in many climbing years I have seen a variety of levels of supervision of children, from very good to none at all. The "none at all" crowd are a danger to themselves and others.

I would add (in response tot he OP) that the problem with pushchairs and cots is their lack of mobility. A human who can move can move out of danger. A human who is shackled in a pushchair or cot - fairly obviously - cannot. They are, very literally, a trip hazard to other belayers who will, understandably, have 95% of their attention elsewhere.

Accidents do happen, climbers do fall, and as we all know, ropes have an irritating habit of attaching to things. my biggest worry about a pushchair in a wall is that a climber will fall off, the trailing rope will catch a wheel and pushchair will be yanked across the floor at speed before parent has a hope of doing anything about it.

In reply to marsbar:


A belayer that is so easily distracted is a liability. If there isn't a child to distract them there is likely to be something else.

In reply to timjones:

This brings me nicely onto a theory of mine. Kids make noise, scream, cry, etc, we know that. It's been that way since the dawn of humanity.

Parents - or those who are familiar with their kids noises - can (a) tune them out or are at least used to them and (b) know to distinguish between "I'm hungry" "I'm bored" and "Someone has just landed on my head".

Non-parents (or people whose kids have a different noise range, or people who had their kids a while back) - cannot. For very good survival-of-the-species-reasons a baby's scream inserts itself at priority 1 in your brain and stays there until it stops or you can see that the child is "safe". It is distracting.

Normally, not a problem. In a climbing wall, however, every time we go up a route, we all rely on our belayer *for our lives*. This is not, I would submit, a situation where any additional distraction is a good idea.

Parents wishing to climb is not, again in my view, a sufficient justification for adding an additional distraction to an environment where people's lives depend on concentration.

In reply to timjones:

So people should be allowed to let their kids run round and their babies scream until they can be lowered and its my problem if that makes my climbing unpleasant.

In reply to marsbar:


It doesn't take very long to lower off, a few minutes at the most.

At that point the parents are likely to have to curtail their climbing and you will be free to enjoy the rest of your day. Is that a major problem?

In reply to John_Hat:

If it's not someone elses child it could be a wasp or a passing ambulance. Belayers should not be open to easy distraction.

In reply to timjones:
Tim, I'm sure you're a lovely bloke and all that, but you're not coming across well in this thread.

For example, in the post above, you imply that a distraction for "minutes" is fine. As we all know climbing accidents take fractions of a second.

Walls take some effort to ensure that distractions are minimised. Doesn't it appear a little odd to be advocating the addition of (avoidable) distractions into a dangerous environment where concentration is paramount?

In reply to marsbar:

Had some of this a Millstone a couple of weeks ago. Four adults and several children, who were all running around 'expressing their freedom'. This included using my legs as something to hide behind while I was belaying. The parents thought I was mean when I asked them to control their children so that I could concentrate.

In reply to timjones:

That depends on the child.

In reply to two_tapirs:


>
Hazard.

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

good point, well made

In reply to timjones:

You know as well as anyone else on here that 99.9% of humans would turn if a child shrieked or shouted beside them. Besides if there was a disturbance next a belayer, if half decent they would look to ensure they weren't required to take evasive action to ensure the climbers safety. You seem to be following the trend of this thread by speaking on behalf of all parents when in fact your experience is quite unique.

In reply to two_tapirs:


Banning pushchairs won't stop people from being as thick as two short planks, as in this case.

If I ran a wall they'd not be allowed beyond the reception/cafe/shop areas - because nobody but climbers, belayers and staff would be. Quite apart from etiquette and climber safety there is to be considered the safety of the baby. Anyone on the floor is at risk from someone decking in an accident, and a baby has no chance to move itself or to survive an adult falling on it. It may only be a small risk but there is nothing to justify it that I can see.

In reply to timjones:


If the parents do as I suggest (and have done) the parents won't have to curtail their climbing, as the baby is in the cafe. It doesn't have to be a a baby sitter it can be a third climber swapping over. Parents happy, baby happy, everyone else happy. Win win situation.

In reply to John_Hat:


Not any wall at which I've ever climbed! Blaring loud music, kid's parties, swinging newbies, descending auto-belay users, tog-bags, water bottles and clutter lying about and general mayhem tend to be the status quo and sometimes even communication between the top and the floor is impossible - a problem about which I have often complained to the staff.

Is it just my imagination or has this topic been done, only recently? This thread seems identical to one we had just a few months ago - even the same arguments being bandied about.

In reply to two_tapirs:

Were you using a Troll harness at the time?

In reply to Xharlie:

Ok, I would say in the walls I use regularly there is an effort to ensure that:

Only climbers in the climbing area (Important, and done in more or less every wall I've ever been to). Probably the most important one as it means that those in the area should know the rules.
Reasonable segregation in between what could loosely be called "beginners walls" and the rest
No running or general screaming rules
Clutter to the side (might just be our wall) and/or in lockers away from the climbing area
Kids parties (and newbies under instruction) kept to a separate area, often cordoned off.
"beginners" area is co-incidentally overlooked by staff area
Music is loud but not blaring.


No idea, I'm only sporadically on here.

In reply to John_Hat:



I never said or implied that distraction for a couple of minutes was fine. A belayer has to be able to deal with distraction, if you are so easily distracted then you shouldn't be doing safety critical jobs.


Really? How many distractions can you name that walls "take some effort" to minimise?

In reply to Neil Williams:


Surely the parents will know their own child?

In reply to Fishmate:


100% of belayers should be able to retain control of the rope whilst turning due to any loud noise beside them.

I'm not speaking on behalf of all parents, I am speaking against the absurd and selfish suggestion that no babies or young childten should be allowed around climbers without a third person to constantly mind them.

In reply to marsbar:


Maybe they don't want to do as you suggest

We're all different we will all find different solutions but I think we need to learn to accept that babies and small children are part of any community. It's a shame to segregate them due to the intolerance of a few people.

In reply to timjones:

Like I say, you're not coming across well.

The reason that myself and others are putting for exclusion of *unsupervised* babies and young children (supervised children being absolutely fine [1]) is not for "selfish" reasons, but for their safety as well as the safety of all others in that environment. This does not feel "absurd".

However as I (and others) have tried to explain a few time the reasons for our views, and the response on your part has not really been to address the valid safety concerns that I and others have raised, I'm going to leave it there. Cheers. J.

[1] Note "Supervised" does not mean "parents are in the same wall". "Supervised" means "keeping an eye on the children and able to intervene rapidly if the children are in a position or doing something that compromises their own or others safety".

In reply to timjones:

I think it's fine to be intolerant of being unnecessarily distracted and obstructed while carrying out safety critical activities that require concentration.

It's also fine for parents to go clibming with their small kids, as long as they can arrange it in a responsible manner so that the kids don't distract and obstruct others.

In reply to John_Hat:

Exactly.

Keep screaming babies and unruly children out of the active area (cafe is fine) of the climbing wall.
For (obvious) safety reasons.

I can't see any possible argument as to any other policy. Parents don't have a 'right to climb' at the expense of other people.

In reply to John_Hat:


That is a matter of opinion, I'd suggest that those who are saying children should not be allowed in case they distract me from my belaying are not coming across well.




So where is the problem with a baby in a pushchair that is placed in a safe position?

Or a well behaved child that will sit on a bench out of harms way?

Why not have simple sensible rules that cover both adults and children rather than having special rules for children?

In reply to ClimberEd:

Perhaps you should address the argument put rather than one that nobody is advocating.

Nobody is suggesting parents should let their children run wild nor are they suggesting leaving screaming babies scattered over the belay zone.

Children (and babies) can the perfectly well accommodated at climbing walls if the parents are considerate to the other users. Just as other users of the climbing walls should be considerate to other users.

If you want to be fundamentalist about it then that's your prerogative but I don't really see where that gets you, apart from perhaps raising your blood pressure.

In reply to AlanLittle:



I agree that you shouldn't be obstructed but you should be rock solid when it comes to the ability to avoid being distracted. Belaying is a simple job with a default "failsafe" position if you can't master that under any circumstances then you shouldn't be blaming others.

In reply to timjones:
Ok, I'll engage on this last one.



No-one is saying anything about having any problems about either of the above.

Well, the pushchair possibly, only because if a "safe" location suddenly becomes an "unsafe" location then there's not a lot the child in the chair can do.

I think the impression you have given (in response primarily to Marsbar) is that it is perfectly fine to have screaming and disruptive kids in a climbing wall, and it's up to the rest of the climbers to cope as "we need to learn to accept that babies and small children are part of any community".

If that is NOT your view, and that you feel that kids are fine as long as they are well behaved, not disruptive, I think we are in general agreement.

However I would (sorry) exclude babies from the active area of a climbing wall.

In reply to ClimberEd:





I wouldn't have a problem with that as long as you aren't seeking to exclude all babies and children just in case they scream or they may be unruly.

In reply to John_Hat:

How do you interpret?

"Personally I think a climbing wall is no place for children too small to climb. I suppose you could make an exception for supervised children in the cafe."

or

"If the parents do as I suggest (and have done) the parents won't have to curtail their climbing, as the baby is in the cafe. "

In reply to John_Hat:



I'm finding myself agreeing, and then I'm remember somebody who worked for my Dad going on paternity/maternity leave with their new born and having a sports climbing trip around Europe, with the baby being next to the belayer while their partner climbed. I'm thinking adult humans can probably manage to belay and to keep an ear out for their child too? They both came back to the UK unscathed at any rate.

Indoor wall belaying is pretty straight forward.

In reply to Timmd:


Spot on!

We've had some great climbing trips like that. I think the Europeans tend to be rather more child friendly than us Brits .

I remember our daughter at the age of about 4 happily playing in the bushes at the foot of a Sardinian sport crag whilst I lead a route at the end of a family day on the beach. Half way up I heard the line "daddy I've just done a runny fart!" A few quick questions indicated that it was "very runny", it took a few seconds for me to secure myself to the nearest bolt allowing my wife to take me off belay. She was then able to start sorting the daughter out and it took a few minutes for me to clip in a bail biner and abseil off to assist.

We got some climbing done, the daughter got to play whilst we did so and we were both easily able to assist when needed. To cap it off the next person to climb the route got a free krab, everyone's a winner

In reply to timjones:
The main thing is probably to keep errant children out of the belay area and stop them crawling under people boulderers who might land on them or hurt themselves avoiding them.

In reply to timjones:


They will, but as amply demonstrated elsewhere they are very often, I guess unlike yourself, considerate enough to consider those factors when deciding whether to climb, or whether to go on a holiday requiring a long-haul flight, or whatever.

(Big hint re the latter for such parents - if a child is crying throughout a 10 hour flight, that means they *really* don't like it, and you are being cruel by putting them through it just because you want[1] a holiday. Drive, with frequent stop-offs, and see Mickey Mouse in France instead, if they aren't able to handle it, rather than indulging only your own desires to go to the USA or wherever - for the kid's benefit as well as for that of the other passengers).

[1] A few parents have little choice like ex-pats, but that isn't even many parents, let alone most or all.

In reply to timjones:

They are also more child *responsible* than many Brits. It sounds like you take a European attitude as a whole, which is welcome - for instance, they will take their children to a proper restaurant to eat proper food, but will expect (and receive) the proper standard of behaviour from them.

This is exactly how it should be. And (with the odd exception) nobody would be objecting to prams and kids in climbing walls were they not *actually* causing an issue because, largely, of a significant minority of selfish, inconsiderate and entitlement-shouting parents. Not most parents, but enough to cause an issue. Probably the same parents, FWIW, who won't fold their pram on the bus when a wheelchair user wants to get on.

Edit: or here's another example - supermarkets. Single parents have little choice but to take unhappy kids to the supermarket, though I suppose delivery is an option they may wish to investigate. What I really don't get is entire families (2 adults and 2 kids usually) doing family outings to supermarkets in which the adults bicker about what to buy and the kids run riot. Make a shopping list, and take one of the kids with one adult, and take the time to involve them in the shopping process and teach them about it - have them find things, have them choose some items (within limits), perhaps even pay by cash rather than card so they can help with counting out the right money to pay. They won't be running riot, they'll be engaged and interested, as well as having an educational experience. And everyone else will look on impressed at the well-behaved kid taking part in the shopping at such a young age, not complaining about tripping over them for the Nth time.

In reply to Timmd:

"I'm thinking adult humans can probably manage to belay ...."

I'm thinking adult humans as well. Hopefully so is everybody else, otherwise these annoying kids might be baby goats. And they should definitely only be in the cafe or shop area.

In reply to Neil Williams:



Goodness, is this 'grumpy Tuesday'? Could be that they were happy on the previous flight, and are fed up on the currrent one for some reason unknown to you?

A relative once beamed kindly at a small child who started to cry on a flight, and he laughed and cheered up and the mum looked very relieved...

In reply to timjones:



Perhaps I should clarify. I'm not trying to exclude children from the building, but none climbers of any age shouldn't be in actual climbing and belaying area in my opinion.

I am more than delighted for children of around 3 and up to be climbing. If your child is old enough to sit on a bench and not run around, they are old enough to climb, so why not have them climbing? As someone suggested above they can help belay by tagging ropes.

In reply to timjones:

A 4 year old sensibly playing outside is not something I would have the slightest problem with. She is old enough to understand what is going on, happy playing, and able to understand what you say to her and wait for help without danger or for the time it takes you to get to her.

A baby screaming indoors for the time it takes to get to them same thing at all.

Outdoor climbing isn't the same as indoors for so many reasons.

In reply to Neil Williams:



Are prams at climbing walls really such an issue?
I can't remember ever being inconvenienced by a pram/baby at a climbing wall, I'm unconvinced it's a major or even a minor problem.

Children at walls being an issue I've experienced, but in the main it's not the children of climbers, it's the children of non-climbers, or climbers with little experience themselves.
They don't really understand the rules or the culture at the wall themselves and so don't take appropriate care of their children in this setting. Sometimes they just need a bit of education and they'll realise that it's not soft play and it's not appropriate for little Johnny to be running around the belay area, and yes other times they are parents who don't take appropriate care of their darlings in any circumstance.

You're not going to get any wall that bans children because in general it's a large part of their income (besides the fact that why shouldn't well behaved children climb?)
You might get a wall that bans babies (although the climber run walls I've been to have been happy to have babies when they are taken care of appropriately (including having them in a pram when the parents are climbing if that's reasonably for the setup in that particular wall)).

The solution is for parents to act responsibly and appropriately and for the the staff to have an eye on things, educate the ignorant and if necessary enforce rules on safety and behaviour that apply to all wall users not just to children and their parents.

That sounds pretty reasonably to me and it's what happens at the moment (to a greater or lesser extent), I don't see what other solutions there are for the people here arguing against children in the climbing walls they don't run.

In reply to jkarran:


I see what you mean about the tone now I've read it again. Thanks for pointing that out, it is actually really helpful to me, as I didn't see it before, or intend it to sound like that.

In reply to MeMeMe:

I don't want to ban children, far from it. Taking my niece climbing has always been a great joy to me. By the sound of it Tim's daughter would be lovely too. However the reality is that lots of parents aren't responsible. Blame them not me.

In reply to marsbar:


I very seldomly climb with my kids (although I frequently climb with a friend who takes his daughter and who is very well behaved) and I dislike unruly children at the wall as much as the next person.
Possibly more than the next person as for some reason, as shown in this thread, some of the shit sticks to me even through I am very responsible with the kids at the wall.

I think my problem is I've mistaken this thread for a search for a solution to the problem when it's more just a rant about the issue. The problem with a rant is that it's likely to get people's backs up and re-enforce unreasonable behaviour on both sides of an issue.

I'm guessing the whole thing is a wind up anyway since the OP has not posted again...

In reply to Neil Williams:


This is a bit hard to decipher! Should I be offended by it


Many children seem to manage long haul flights perfectly OK. Are you suggesting that no parents should take their children on long haul flights just in case they cry?


Surely being an ex-pat is a personal choice

In reply to all:

A general observation.

Either those of you without children are much better parents than those who have them, or, children aren't robots and it's actually a teeny tiny bit difficult to predict their behaviour and being a parent is much harder when you actually, you know, are one.

I've never taken my children to the climbing wall but we do go shopping, eat at restaurants and fly.

Why all go shopping? It's a nice outing. Why are we arguing? Because on the way there was a car accident which means we've been out for an hour already and one child is now very hungry despite you buying them an emergency sandwich. The other child, a baby, has decided to do that three hour crying thing, starting the moment you arrived and it's filled his nappy. Neither of you have eaten because you had left in time to get home for lunch, a plan wrecked by the accident. You have to finish the shopping because there's no food in the house and you're out of nappies. Because of childcare and work, you won't have the chance to go again for three days. It's all very stressful and arseholes keep tutting at you.

In reply to marsbar:



Why on earth do you have such a problem with babies doing what babies sometimes do?


I'd suggest that indoor climbing is the UK equivalent of a sunny southern European sport crag, if there is safe space for a pushchair then I don't believe that grumpy climbers should be allowed to force responsible parents out.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:


>
Message to the woman who completely ignored her screaming baby for thirty minutes + in the cafe at the Reading Wall a few weeks ago:
"We don't want to hear your baby screaming. We understand that sometimes in the privacy of your own home it might be best to leave your baby to cry itself to sleep. A cafe is not your own home so please at least make some attempt to hush your baby or take it outside. Thankyou"

In reply to timjones:

Because it is highly distracting (we are evolved to be distracted by it) in an environment where distraction can actually mean death.

If a child is crying it needs its parent *now*, not when he/she has finished his/her climb. You appear to understand this. Many parents appear not to.

Many walls have a policy that when someone is supervising a child or inexperienced adult they may not leave the ground (i.e. they may not climb) unless another person is also supervising. Arguably that could extend to "they also may not belay for anyone other than that child (where under, say, 6[1]) while they are supervising". The easy answer, as I mentioned, is to find someone else so you can climb in a three, then one person can always attend to the child.

FWIW I haven't experienced this problem in a climbing wall - it's more public transport and supermarkets where I see it - but some clearly have.

[1] Or, to accommodate responsible parents, where a child runs unsupervised around a climbing wall in a manner that poses a risk to themselves or others, and a floor walker sees it, the supervising adult is immediately asked to leave with no return permitted on that day, and if it happens, say, on three or more occasions that adult is barred from supervising children/non-experienced adults for a period of time, say a year. It would probably make sense to extend such a rule to incidents like dangerous belaying, wearing helmets on autobelays, wearing harnesses while bouldering etc, reinforcing the point that the supervisor is always 100% responsible for the actions of the person being supervised, whether adult or child.

In reply to XXXX:

It really isn't, or not for your children, anyway, unless you are going to involve them fully in the shopping process, or at least (if they are old enough) give them a book to read.

Supermarket shopping is mind-numbingly tedious. Watching someone else do supermarket shopping is even more so.

The mistake was there, right at the start Select an outing that interests and engages your children, and have your shopping delivered (or if you prefer, have one adult do the shopping then all go somewhere actually nice together).

In reply to timjones:


I'm suggesting that most parents know whether their child is likely to cry / get restless when having to sit for 8 hours without any decent stimulation, and that if they think that they are a long-haul holiday is a very bad choice for everyone involved.

TBH I doubt, if I had kids, I'd take them on a long plane journey until they had sufficient speech for me to be able to explain, and for them to understand, all the odd and often stressful aspects of international economy-class air travel. FWIW my sister had me take her son on his first flight, a "nice and easy" domestic to Edinburgh booked only for that purpose, so I could explain it all to him - and he liked it - rather than him seeing her scared on his first go (she really doesn't like it) - for that we waited until he was about 5 so we could properly talk about what was going on. One of my earliest memories is of being on a flight to Malta (aged about 2-3 I think) and I remember hating every last minute of it - sore ears, stressed parents etc.

Take them to mainland Europe by car and ferry, and there's much more "fun stuff" and exploration to do during what is actually a longer journey!


True.

In reply to timjones:

True, but not wanting to point out the obvious, so is having children.

In reply to XXXX:
I think the reverse message would be "Yes we know parenting is stressful but you chose to do it. Given this, perhaps remember that having the highly irritating aspects of other people's children forced on you in environments where this might be dangerous is not on. Further, note that sometimes people pay quite a lot of money for an environment that is relatively quite and relaxing, such as restaurants. Imposing a screaming toddler on others in these situations for an extended period is rather selfish.

In reply to XXXX:


I've yet to be tutted at in my parenting adventure. Then again if we're in a resturaunt and Tree Jr starts making a noise that's above the background level and I can't calm them right away I take them outside. I couldn't stand the thought of being there whilst disrupting other people's meals. I'd rather go without.

As for shopping, I keep the house sufficiently well stocked such that there's never an urgent shopping need. I've done this long since before a small one came along, it's basic good practice born of living down south through the aftermath of the great storm of 1987 and living up north during a couple of winters around 2010. A side benefit is never having to inconvenience other shoppers with an unhappy child whilst in a bad mood myself.

I'm also prepared to not fly on a family holiday until we reach 6 or 7 years old.

Organisation. Being prepared. It really does work wonders.

I think we might be in a minority.

Edit: I should add; I try to be very tolerant of other people's choices in all these situations (no tutting) although I have been known to crack - in no uncertain terms - when someone mistakenly thinks it's acceptable to give their infant an iPad with the volume turned up to occupy them in a restaurant. I've also come to appreciate places with loud music (a pet hate of mine) as between that and strategic table choice you can manage a low level grumbly infant without disturbing others.

In reply to wintertree:

You sound like a very sensible parent indeed.

In reply to timjones:

I have a problem with the noise a baby makes when it's unhappy. Nature arranged that, as I said, it is deliberately and for good reasons the hardest noise to ignore. It goes right through the me, it really upsets me in some primal way. I don't understand why you find this so hard to understand, or why you think it makes me hate babies. If I hated babies, the sound of them being distressed wouldn't distress me. Maybe you find it easy to ignore it. A lot of my female friends can't understand how they hear the baby cry in the night and their husband/partner doesn't. Maybe women hear it more, I'm not sure.

It's like saying why do I like marmite and some people hate it. Presumably not everyone experiences things the same.

In an indoor climbing wall the sounds echo more, if I'm climbing or belaying I can't move away from the sound like I could in a supermarket, I can't do anything to placate the baby. I can't put ear plugs in as I could on a flight, and I have to maintain concentration.

In reply to wintertree:

Thank you for your consideration.

In reply to marsbar:


As you say it's very primal. Apparently a lot of breast feeding mothers will start to leak milk when they hear any baby cry. That's pretty hard wired stuff.

To respond to a few points made:

The issues wasn't a screaming child, it was a parent with a pushchair just stopping behind the belayer. The parent could have actually walked around the wall to where they wanted to get to, and taken the route that has a huge amount of space and safety.

The wall in question? The Reach. It's very accommodating to families, perhaps they need to just be a little stricter with marking out the areas that pushchairs can go. The area that the pushchair was trying to get through is the narrowest part of the centre, between the slabs and a wall. I'm going to contact the Reach and ask them to consider clearly marking some areas as not for pushchairs. if they could mark an area as 'not for morons who can't see the danger', that would solve an awful lot of problems.

As for the point that the someone made about a belayer should be able to cope with this sort of distraction? there are times when you just don't expect someone to park a pram directly behind you, e.g. when you're focused on your climber leading a pretty tough section.

In reply to two_tapirs:

I seem to remember their cafe is upstairs? which might be part of the problem, if it's difficult to get them up there out of the way. I'm just used to the rules elsewhere, non climbers watch from the cafe, and are not allowed elsewhere.

In reply to two_tapirs:

so close to 100.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I wouldn't dream of speaking on behalf of my children yet you feel you can? I'm fairly certain though that my son loves shopping. He has a shop at home with plastic food and a till with money. He loves to choose his fruit and veg, weigh it and then 'bip' it before putting it in the trolley. He says "can we go to tescos today daddy?" So I reckon he likes it.

The trouble is that toddlers are irrational. Once they've lost their shit that's it, you have no choice but to finish what you've started as fast as possible. Children are precious, in both senses of the world.

Try a little patience.

In reply to Irk


Why are all the good parents getting annoyed at critisism of bad parents.

If your child likes shopping and has his toys to go with it, you have fully involved him in the shopping process. Neil was not referring to you.

In reply to Irk the Purist:

I'm sorry that no one did your shopping for you while that was going on

Hope he or she is ok now.

In reply to two_tapirs:

I have had issues while setting where kids have gone into the "dropzone", ignoring the cones, rope strung between the cones and notes saying do not come over this rope. If I dropped a bolt from height and hit them it is going to cause a fair bit or damage, if I drop a steel krab or hold from that height it could very much be game over.

In reply to marsbar:

My point is that you have no idea who the good parents are. Lots of perfectly good parents have bad days because children are not robots, and neither are parents.

In reply to XXXX:

All I ask is that parents keep their children and other people safe. If they can keep the children, themselves and everyone else happy that's great too. I have every sympathy for people having a bad day. I don't for people who can't be bothered looking after their children. I'm sure even on a bad day you look after your children.

In reply to XXXX:

If I have to put up with your screaming child is it really so difficult for you to put up with my tutting (swearing usually, it's good to improve the little darling's vocabulary)? Have a bit of patience.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I fly to Australia annually with three kids under five. Anyone needs any advice, come to me...i'm here to help.

In reply to marsbar:

There are people on this thread who clearly have deep rooted problems with children.

Of course they should be kept safe but the idea that parents shouldn't take children shopping, climbing, to a restaurant, on holiday or just outside in case they make a noise and upset someone?

In reply to Sir Chasm:

Swearing at toddlers? That's where we're at now?

Thanks for reminding me what an unpleasant place this forum can be. I'm off to play in the garden.

In reply to XXXX:


But you must acknowledge there are also bad parents, and it is they who are causing the issues.

In reply to marsbar:


I think you put that well. Safety, in a climbing wall, is paramount. Happiness is good too, and most of us manage both.

However if there is a conflict then happiness should always come second.

In reply to XXXX:



Not at them, silly, about them

In reply to XXXX:

I think people have a problem with bad parents. It's not an easy job and I am genuinely sorry if I have upset any of the good parents on here who are the majority I imagine. But it does seem that you can't critisise bad parents without the good ones feeling it. That wasn't my intention.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

Sounds fun. Do let me know which flight to avoid

In reply to marsbar:
It does sound that way, doesn't it? I don't understand why good parents are often so defensive of bad parents rather than levelling criticism where due. Good drivers, after all, are very much *not* defensive of bad drivers.

If you're not sure if your teenager is heavy enough to belay you safely a useful tip is to clip a couple of younger siblings to them as ballast. Safety first!

In reply to two_tapirs:

Given the OP's post was about a baby in a pushchair this really should be a non-issue. They are immobile or strapped into their seat. Wait till they go to sleep, climb till they wake up. Have a cup of tea and cake and realise that in your sleep deprived state about 40 mins is all you could manage anyway. I can't see that it's likely that the parents would climb while the baby's bawling its lungs out, though sometimes they just take a bit of comforting. So taking babies to the wall is easy, and shouldn't cause anyone much fuss.

Totally different with toddlers, no matter how well behaved, and even with their best intention, there is no guarantee they will remember the drill not to run on the boulder mats or into the belay zone. But with close adult supervision (i.e 1 to 1, with the child climbing or bouldering) it's safe and to be encouraged, so long as they are having fun.

In reply to Neil Williams:


This is the bit that bothers me, anyone who is likely to get distracted and belay so poorly that their partner risks death is not fit to belay.


I'm not sure that I agree with this, if you jump every time that your child cries then you are likely to create a needy child that cries for attention. It's a balancing act and you shouldn't allow a child to cry for long periods if it upsetting other people but a crying child does not necessarily need it's parent right now.


Why apply rules that force other people to comply with a very narrow view of "good" childcare?


Children cry sometimes it's a fact of life, we're all members of a community and sometimes you have to live with some minor irritations.

In reply to John_Hat:


Correct

My point was why is it more acceptable for ex-pats to fly with children than it is for holiday makers to do the same?

In reply to Neil Williams:


I can't speak for everyone but I'm not defending what you might define as bad parenting. I'm speaking out against the suggestion that children shouldn't be allowed in climbing walls, on long haul flights etc because some children might cry.

In reply to marsbar:




I can appreciate that but to be blunt that doesn't justify excluding babies or young children from climbing walls.

Fortunately we live in a tolerant society and neither you, I or anyone else can ban people that might irritate or distract us from public buildings or spaces.

In reply to wintertree:



Couldn't have wrote it better myself.

In reply to Max factor:

The op was about a parent trying to barge through past a belayer. It's not about the kid.

In reply to two_tapirs:

Jesus wept,
it's hard to believe that the climbers on here are of the same ilk as those that first conquered Everest or the North face of the Eiger.
Is there any chance everybody could just stop their moaning?
What's happened to the great British stiff upper lip?

Joe Simpson could manage to crawl down from Siula Grande with broken legs and barely complained (apart from the book and the film and magazine articles and tv interviews etc), yet someone pushed past with a pram and the flood gates open from complaints about how I can't go to a supermarket without having to interact with the hoi polloi to complaints about how screaming children have killed thousands in tragic belay accidents.

Get a grip folks, this is just getting embarrassing.

In reply to timjones:


As I don't own a climbing wall I indeed can't. However, a climbing wall owner most certainly can. Children are not a protected characteristic in law, and it is perfectly legitimate (though unlikely, given the business of climbing walls, nor necessary[1]) to ban children from a sporting venue like a climbing wall. For example, almost no gyms allow children under 16 at all, and the "outdoor gym" thing I take part in only allows (and indeed encourages) them at specific "family" sessions promoted as such.

[1] It is only necessary to enforce against *inconsiderate* people, parents and otherwise, not all people.

In reply to timjones:


I don't agree with you for very young children. However, we can of course agree to disagree.

*However*, if you do intend to apply that approach, you do need to be considerate in public places with it. In particular that approach is not in any way acceptable on a long haul, overnight flight, for example, nor a restaurant or climbing wall. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few in that context, I'm afraid.


The rules I'd propose for climbing walls (which are very similar to the rules a lot of walls *do* apply, FWIW, though mainly to prevent someone signing someone in then climbing with them belaying without anyone tailing) relate to everyone's safety, not good/bad childcare. It is unsafe to have unsupervised children in a climbing wall unless they can *always* stay still where they are told to do so. It is nearly as dangerous a place for young unsupervised children as a building site.


A child crying is not a *minor* irritation. We are evolved to respond to it urgently - far more strongly than any instinct other than that of procreation and self-preservation.

In reply to Neil Williams:


Presumably you manage a climbing wall visit without procreating there though...?

(I'm limiting my comments to jokes now, or at least as much of a joke as I can manage

In reply to Neil Williams:



Are you suggesting that it is acceptable to make a rule and then only enforce it in a selective manner?

In reply to Neil Williams:


Wait until you have a young child and then you may well change your mind. How do youy think kids learn to throw tantrums?


I'd say it is acceptable where the child settles within a few minutes but necessary to respond if it takes longer. Maybe the time that it takes for a really irritating music track to finish on the sound system at a venue should be used as a gauge for how long is acceptable


Even adults blindly wander into unsafe areas, should all adults be supervised too


It has "evolved" as a means for a child to get attention, it has not "evolved" to be an irritation to adults. If you find it irritating that is not the childs problem, many things can be irritating, we can't restrict them all, tolerance is the key.

In reply to timjones:

Yes, provided the rule is itself selective, e.g. "if children, in the view of our staff, are unsupervised such that they are causing a hazard to themselves or other wall users, for example moving around the bouldering or roped climbing area under other climbers, we will ask you to leave immediately without refund and not return on the same day. If we have to do this more than once, you will be banned from supervising others in the wall for six months. If we have to impose such a ban twice, you will be banned from the wall entirely for an indefinite period, the length of which is at the sole discretion of the wall management."

Anyone who has anything to fear from a rule like that is being irresponsible. And such a rule need only exist if people *are* being irresponsible.

In reply to timjones:

I've been closely involved in the bringing up of my nephew and niece, and my sister and her husband didn't leave them to cry in public as they were conscious that this is not a good thing to do for everyone. Calming a baby is not the same as giving a child having a tantrum the thing they unreasonably want - and if that occurs it's time to go outside with them and tell them off properly, not ignore them and leave them screaming to everyone's detriment.


We certainly differ on that. Leaving a baby to cry for minutes seems to me too much, both for them and for others around you.





Inexperienced climbers need to be supervised properly, yes. If they wander into dangerous areas, that's the fault of the supervisor, and I'd be happy with that leading to consequences for the supervisor, yes. Some people don't take seriously signing people into a wall, and they do need to do so. Such as the muppet I saw wandering around a wall the other week with an un-doubled-back harness - I think his supervisor had gone bouldering and left him to play on the autobelays - this is totally unacceptable and could easily have led to his death.


It has evolved into adults to feel compelled to respond to it, which if they can't (as it is not their child) it is highly stressful. Maybe you don't respond that way (people have after all got different traits and responses) but you should really consider all those around you, not just those who respond in the same way. I personally find an upset person in general quite distressing if I can't help them - a child even more so.

As a result I certainly find it a lot more stressful than e.g. someone playing music out loud, even if I don't like that music. (Actually, that leads me onto another bugbear - people who don't think it is necessary to use headphones when listening to / watching media on tablets/laptops/phones on trains and the likes - but that's for another thread )

In reply to timjones:

No one has suggested they shouldn't. I am pointing out that responding to a distraction is a sensible thing. That doesn't ridiculously imply that they throw the rope up in the air whilst doing so! But no belayer can prevent someone crashing into them which is rather more the point here.


You kind of are. Wait! no, you are completely. Your child may well be in tune with you, well mannered and even have a few brain cells. I'm assuming that is near the truth judging by your comments. Tim, guess what? not all kids are and not all parents care about that. If families were as you claim to be, we wouldn't be having this discussion. To reiterate Marsbar, yes, many parents do need that extra person. It is less absurd and selfish when you are looking in from the outside in 2016.

In reply to Fishmate:


That's what mothers-in-law are for - stepping in to belay while TOH wrangles Junior

In reply to Fishmate:
Surely climbing wall operators are required to check the competence of climbers when joining (You know, can they put on a harness, belay properly and tie a figure-8 etc)

It's about time babies also proved their competence before being allowed into walls (You know, are they still at the screamy, throwing food stage or can they sit quietly long enough for mummy to crank out a 7a?)

'bout time the Baby Mountaineering Council (or as they are now known "Climb U Kid") got involved in this.........