UKC

I tried Darius (E3 5c)yesterday but the guide, ukc logbooks and multitude of possible lines and solutions seems to me slightly confusing from the bolt.

From the bolt and tread i stepped up to gain a good pocket under a small undercutting flake and traversed left on more pockets with feet in the groove to the left (fairly polished) to then gain large downward pointing flakes of this groove where the holds sort of stop. Bit confused and having a bit of a moment I jumped off and abseiled down off the bolt + backup thread and cam.

on abseiling for this gear i was still not completely confident i knew where the route went for another attempt.

so do you step left again from my last position (seems along way left but not too hard and i could have finished the route doh) to gain another flake and worn break with cam placements then reach up right to gain the finishing groove or do you do something else? - i.e. should I have gone straight up above the pocket through the undercut or is this what is considered the direct? or from the groove should i have then tried to move back right into the scoop above the bolt (looked nails)?

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

It's many years ago, but I remember going up left from the bolt then up a groove.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:
I have a distinct memory of stepping rightwards! But as Crags once said you can climb anywhere on High Tor at 6c

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Unfortunately I didn't get far enough to share your dilemma. Another resounding failure. We never went back. Ho hum.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Up and left from the bolt to finish up a right-facing groove/corner with bigger holds is what I remember.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

I got to that position with only a few minutes before dark fall.i was a bit unsure about where the holds had disappeared to, I was about to go for it and take the whipper if I read it wrong,however my friends at the top decided to lower me a rope. After a minute of indecision I took the carrot and finished on TR. Felt easier than it looked but yes I went up from where holds disappear into the right facing corner to finish.

In reply to jon_gill1:

Hi Jon

Living near the top of High Tor I have done Darius several times, and whitnessed several whippers in exactly the spot that you describe. Where the holds run out I make another move left and place cams in the worn break, then reach up rightwards into the groove to finish on flatties. It's fantastic, and nails IMHO. I note that Scoop Wall now seems to have pushed it's self into the E3 catagory - I think Darius is harder than Scoop Wall (signal for heated debate)

I hope you get back on it soon.........Jeff

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Nearly 30 years ago but I remember it well as will be obvious from what follows.

I moved left after clipping the bolt and then diagonally left up the overlap/groove line to its top. My guide at the time ('86 BMC Limestone South) marks the normal line on the overlap. Rockfax Northern Limestone 2004 shows the line just above the overlap but as I remember I used hands on holds in the overlap. Both guidebooks show a harder alternative direct from the bolt.

At the top of the overlap I put my left forearm on the first good flat hold, levered up, and dislocated my shoulder! Just managed to get in a nut by hanging off the dislocated arm and fiddling it in with the other hand before the left arm became completely useless. I called to climbers at the top (by the long gone tree) and they kindly lowered me an end of rope. I had to tell them I couldn't tie a knot and they looked at me incredulously!

I'm pretty sure from there it was a step right into the finishing groove, but I didn't finish it then and have never gone back. E2 has been a bit too hard for me during most of the intervening years.

Martin

In reply to Jeff Ingman:

Wow I'm very envious of you Jeff,I've always thought that would be a nice place to live with that nice pub close by.seems like it has a real community feel to it with all ages enjoying outdoor games at the pub when I've been in the past. Sounds like I might have to go back for another go although I'm not looking forward to I as it felt nails to me! I tried scoop wall a couple of months ago and failed,forced to aid the last few moves after the peg!so not having much luck on the super classics Lim routes but I've managed a fair few others at the grade.perhaps it was headgame getting the better of me on big ticks!

In reply to Martin Hore:

Sounds horrendous Martin,definitely top trumps my story.haha although I was happy to escape in one piece.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

I too didn't quite know where to go. I went right of the bolt which felt hard! Great route!

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Are you trying to say that you've not done Darius years ago? What is the reason for this?

I remember clipping the bolt, going left to a groove, and then climbing it. Great route, and still probably much harder than most of the E4s I've done.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

"so do you step left again from my last position (seems along way left but not too hard and i could have finished the route doh) to gain another flake and worn break with cam placements then reach up right to gain the finishing groove"

I have led this route twice in the past 5 years. I did exactly what you have described above both times. I always assumed it was the correct way. BUT the pictures in most the guidebooks do not seem to show how far left you have to go. I may have been doing it wrong.

Incidentally it felt much harder the second time I did it. Probably less psyched and I assumed I would cruise it having led it previously. I found it a real struggle. Definitely just as hard as Persius. Harder than Robert Brown in my opinion.

A friend of mine took a big fall from above the bolt. For some reason he did not clip it and did not even back it up. He kept going and fell a long way. Still do not understand why he did not clip it or anything else. He says his quickdraw would not go through the eye of the bolt and he was getting pumped.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

I did this yesterday.

Beta below...

From the bolt make a difficult move up and leftwards too a poor rests. (I presume this is where you jumped off?)

From here stretch out left into a wide bridge and continue to the obvious flake.

Above the flake there are good holds and small cams. Place these and step back right into the groove. Climb to the top on good holds, easier than it first appears.

To Jon Stewart: which E4s have you done? I didn't find Darius too bad...

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

I went left at the top but found it much harder than anything else on the route. I think I probably wasn't left enough and was somewhere between going left and finishing direct. I agree that it is totally not obvious and I'm surprised there aren't more threads like this one.

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

Dont remember a thread! (jesting)

I remember seconding it in the 90's, my mate had gone a little to the right of the route all the way up, that made it harder, as I got to the bolt some guy popped his head over the top, he had a pint in his hand, he said, its easier round here mate. I remember it being hard after the bolt, was not expecting that, but I was tired, but the sight of the Pint made me push on......

In reply to Mark Grist:

Thanks for the replays everyone. The bolt currently has a malion on it so is easy to clip there is also an insitu thread and there is also a bommer small cam (slide in a rotate from side type) or probably a wire placement too.

Yes Jon unfortunately it is an large gap in my peak climbing CV I had been putting off for years!! Likewise there are still a few big gaps round the UK too of whole cliffs (cloggy) or areas (Northumberland and Skye that are more embarrassing) though at least reading the recent "I have never" (or similar title) thread I don't feel so bad

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


None in the Peak, but a couple in Pembroke, a couple in the Hebrides, Fay and the others at Sharpnose, Ressurection. Tbf I did Darius a few years before I started trying E4s, but I have this feeling that if I went back on it it would seem totally desperate - it was lower down that I nearly fell off, just above where Delicatessen crosses.

PS. If Darius is E2, then surely The Strand is 2 grades easier?

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Seem to be a bit of a theme for that crag - I did Debauchery there years ago and still not sure if I did the right route or finished in the right place. I have 2 guidebooks that cover the crag and each have slightly different routes and finishes!

In reply to Jon Stewart:


I thought there were 3 distinct 5c cruxes with excellent rests before and after. Like you I found the one crossing Delicatessen hardest.


The Strand was a bigger battle for me, but i have lost 10kg since I led it. I suspect it would feel easier now. It's too long to be Hard VS... Branflake at Holyhead Mountain wool get HVS on some Grit crags.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Does that put the Moon at VS, then?

In reply to jon:


Did you not see it in my top Hard Severe article?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Nice! And Bran Flake might well be graded differently elsewhere.

Mick

In reply to Graeme Hammond:
I had a similar epic last year. Got to the bolt, clipped it and backed it up with a nut in a break 3ft below. Spent ages looking around for "the obvious" anything. No sign of holds in any direction. Tried to go left, ended up on undercut/sidepulls and incredibly poslished feet. Reversed back. Had another look around. Still no obvious groove, flake or anything. Went out left again praying they'd appear, found nothing, went to reverse again, tried to trust a polished foothold and took a huge whipper. Climbed back up to the bolt, went right to a thread and on up to the top easily. Much more sensible.
I think that route's had it's day. It's incredibly shiny now. Even getting to there was scary (and not the good kind) all the way because you have to keep finding unused footholds if you want to live.

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:



You could say that about the whole of peak limestone (or the bits that haven't fallen down)!

In reply to Jeff Ingman:



It's in at E3 in the forthcoming BMC Peak Limestone South guide

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Phew, I thought at first someone had stolen it

In actual fact you can finish either left, straight up or right from the bolt, although the left-hand way is the easiest. It is true that the route is no longer worth three stars unfortunately. Very polished and very unpleasant when in the sun.

Cheers

Graham

In reply to ukb shark:


Well it obviously is E3, but where's the fun in putting that in a guidebook? I think taking down an uber-classic sandbag detracts from its status.

Scoop Wall, of course, actually is E2.

In reply to ukb shark:

I have probably a now outdated script too from one of the BMC area meetings which said it was E3 but didn't want to reply to say so above

In reply to Graham Hoey:

Sorry unfortunately I have been adding to the polish but it didn't seen that bad especially compared to some other routes on peak limestone though usually once you get to E2 it is usually a lot less. Think it might also depend on conditions I have frozen on High Tor in the morning shade and felt like i was climbing greased up rock in the afternoon (skylight is particularly bad). Lastly it still felt solid 3*s with brilliant climbing.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Isn't that polished, isn't e3, is tough for e2, is possible to finish in many directions, will always be a classic

In reply to Graham Hoey:

It's one of the best routes I've ever done and having been on it twice I don't remember polish detracting at all.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:


But more importantly, you smashed it yesterday

In reply to bensilvestre:

Yeah right - E2 if you climb E6

In reply to ukb shark:


I've only ever led 2 E3s and I got up Darius fine. There are hands off tests before all the hard bits. Hard E2 in my view.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Chalk and Cheese. Darius has distinct cruxes and rests. Strand has no real crux but a strength sapper with no proper rests.

Just because Scoop Wall was mistakenly upgraded there's no reason to upgrade the other standard Peak lime E2s

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:



I have a mental picture of you completing a series of sudokus and crosswords on your way up.

I first led it when in my first year of climbing when it was at my limit. That was over 30 years ago. Done it several times since and been able to compare it with a few others.

In reply to kevin stephens:
I'm ok with Darius staying at E2 but it is a bit of a sandbag, but you need a few hard in the grade routes at every grade and it's not a dangerous route. I managed to do both Robert Brown and Perseus clean on sight but I fell off on Darius.

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

I was also slightly confused where to go from the bolt, in the end I headed left on snappy undercuts, which did what snappy undercuts do (snap) and sent me whipping down the crag at an alarming rate. I haven't been back either......

In reply to bensilvestre:


I'm not sure how it can be harder than around 50% of the e3s in the country, and yet still E2.

And (IRT Si) it's certainly not one of the best routes I've ever done - it's on Peak limestone for goodness sake, it's polished, it's chossy, and it's right by a busy A-road in a semi-urban setting. It's quite long though, I'll give it that.

In reply to kevin stephens:


More like 2 different types of cheese, say Wensleydale and Cheddar. They're both long, sustained routes of crack or groove climbing. The first 20m of The Strand is about VS, then it gets slightly harder with no hard moves but is sustained 5a/b. The first 20m of Darius is sustained E15b, then it has 2 hard cruxes, the first of which felt 6a to me and the second was bold. The route is also loose. How these can of equivalent difficulty is beyond comprehension, there's 2 full grades between them.

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Difficult to compare E2s on the Tor as there aren't many. However it's next to, and significantly easier than Robert Brown and, say, Adjudicator Wall in Dovedale which are mid E3 so I think it's just 'proper' difficult to read E2. Makes most grit E2's look p**s by comparison

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Also next to Perseus which is way easier.

As for grit E2s, well they range from trivial to actually impossible.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Never got round to doing Perseus, but have been told it's good. Have you done Delicatessan? I seem to remember that's E2 5c, and around the same difficulty as Darius. Brilliant route.
Just got back from Font, so have just been experiencing 'trivial to actually impossible' at first hand.
What are the actually impossible grit E2s?

In reply to Graeme Hammond: Am amazed at the amount of response etc to this. Surely the answer is "at the top"

PS: I have twice seconded Darius in the evening and ended up (both times) rushing to get up before the rock became completely orange (from the streetlights being stronger than any remaining daylight). The nuances of the footholds became more difficult to determine as the evening fell and I remember being completely pumped, so much so that pulling up on the huge jugs in the finishing corner/groove was in doubt.

At the bolt, both times we went left with tricky thin moves including (if I remember correctly) a hand crossover with rubbish footholds.

People mention other moves as hard as just after the bolt but I don't remember that. Could it be that either they are where bits have since fallen off (near the Debauchery cross-over) or in the groove at the level of the optional stance halfway up (which comes out of the groove for a move or two).

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

I've done delicatessen as well.i really liked it and found it hard for the moves leaving the crack getting to the belay stance. I managed to get that one clean but found Darius much harder,that said when I tried Darius I was a bit tired and stressed which can make a huge difference. I'd like to try Perseus at some point although I've been told its a hard route, if its easier than Darius I might have to have a look sooner rather than later.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


No it isn't!

Tom - who didn't get up it this afternoon.

In reply to deacondeacon: Hi Deacon, trying to get in touch about some gear you found in Dovedale. Tried mailing but clearly did not work. Please get in touch. Thanks

In reply to Graeme Hammond:

I'm not sure which way darius is meant to go but I went straight up the wall from the bolt. I thought was desperate - thin and fingery pocket pulling and definitely not E2. I think I may have gone too far right though....