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Anyone else seen this story ? Although I wouldn't want any more they have always seemed part of the alpine tradition & on occasions I've been glad to see one appear through the mist
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/01/alpine-crosses-under-threat-a...
ps - wasn't sure which forum to put this in, maybe it should be in off belay or even culture?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/01/alpine-crosses-under-threat-a...
ps - wasn't sure which forum to put this in, maybe it should be in off belay or even culture?
In reply to Doug:
I agree with Messner - they are unsightly things and have no place on a mountain. They should be confined to churches and graveyards.
I agree with Messner - they are unsightly things and have no place on a mountain. They should be confined to churches and graveyards.
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In reply to Trangia:
So would you cut down strings of prayer flags in the Himalayas? Or do Tibetans have more right to their historical culture than Bavarians do to theirs?
So would you cut down strings of prayer flags in the Himalayas? Or do Tibetans have more right to their historical culture than Bavarians do to theirs?
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In reply to AlanLittle:
Ideally people wouldn't litter the summit of any mountain with religious symbols.
Ideally people wouldn't litter the summit of any mountain with religious symbols.
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In reply to Trangia:
They can make good abseil points. And lightning conductors.
> I agree with Messner - they are unsightly things and have no place on a mountain.
They can make good abseil points. And lightning conductors.
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In reply to Trangia:
As much respect I have for Messner (and that includes his atheist leanings), I think he has got it wrong here. The alps are a Christian heartland, and the crosses have been put up there for as long as people have been climbing hills. Of course, crosses on higher summits have only come up later. So, I would definitely retain the old, simple crosses, while banning or even removing abominations like the 30m summit "cross" on that Austrian mountain whose name just escapes me. That thing even has an entire room built into its base that can be booked for conferences and other events.
CB
edit: Just looked up the Messner interview in the original, and he comes across much more moderate.
As much respect I have for Messner (and that includes his atheist leanings), I think he has got it wrong here. The alps are a Christian heartland, and the crosses have been put up there for as long as people have been climbing hills. Of course, crosses on higher summits have only come up later. So, I would definitely retain the old, simple crosses, while banning or even removing abominations like the 30m summit "cross" on that Austrian mountain whose name just escapes me. That thing even has an entire room built into its base that can be booked for conferences and other events.
CB
edit: Just looked up the Messner interview in the original, and he comes across much more moderate.
Post edited at 20:47
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In reply to Doug:
Well they're clearly mad.
The most extreme scenario of this type of scenario is the string of 7000m+ peaks (I can't remember where, Pakistan or China or who knows) which have not been summited for religious reasons- the mountains are considered sacred by the local populace.
In comparison forgoing some of the world's greatest (in some people's opinion) challenges, having to look at a bit of a cross is pretty minor.
As an aside, the village I live in decided a few years ago that they'd like to put up a large metal cross. After much debate (no one wanted it in front of their house) it was planted at the bottom of our garden (the only atheists in the village).
We have not yet chopped it down.
Well they're clearly mad.
The most extreme scenario of this type of scenario is the string of 7000m+ peaks (I can't remember where, Pakistan or China or who knows) which have not been summited for religious reasons- the mountains are considered sacred by the local populace.
In comparison forgoing some of the world's greatest (in some people's opinion) challenges, having to look at a bit of a cross is pretty minor.
As an aside, the village I live in decided a few years ago that they'd like to put up a large metal cross. After much debate (no one wanted it in front of their house) it was planted at the bottom of our garden (the only atheists in the village).
We have not yet chopped it down.
Post edited at 20:55
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In reply to AlanLittle:
While Tibet is being changed by China (with the destruction of anything 'too Tibetan'), perhaps they are a special case?
> So would you cut down strings of prayer flags in the Himalayas? Or do Tibetans have more right to their historical culture than Bavarians do to theirs?
While Tibet is being changed by China (with the destruction of anything 'too Tibetan'), perhaps they are a special case?
Post edited at 22:01
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In reply to AlanLittle:
I very deliberately cut a string of 'Tibetan'* prayer flags off the summit pole of Mt Vinson on New Year's Day 2005, took them back to Chile and threw them in the trash bin. I'm against leaving anything on summits. Peaks like Aconcagua and Orizaba have all sorts of crap tacked onto their summit crosses - photos, pennants from clubs, champagne or beer bottles - and most of it ends up being blown away to litter the slopes of the mountain.
As for the alpine crosses, though I'm very much an atheist I have nothing against them as I've always considered them a product of the local culture, which I respect as a traveller. If the culture changes, then maybe the cross-placing should change. I encounter prayer flags on passes and the odd summit in the Himalaya (Stok Kangri must have about 150m worth of strings on it as of last year) and never feel the desire to chop them down, because they're part of the local culture.
In the case of Vinson, there is no local or traditional human culture of the area and in that case, not only do I believe removing trash from the mountain is the right thing to do, I also believe no one religious artefact should be left there like some kind of claim or display.
Climbing is about people, not mountains. Done by people, for people. You can't remove people from the multi-factored equation that is climbing.
*I'm guessing they were made and bought in Boulder, CO or somewhere similar.
> So would you cut down strings of prayer flags in the Himalayas? Or do Tibetans have more right to their historical culture than Bavarians do to theirs?
I very deliberately cut a string of 'Tibetan'* prayer flags off the summit pole of Mt Vinson on New Year's Day 2005, took them back to Chile and threw them in the trash bin. I'm against leaving anything on summits. Peaks like Aconcagua and Orizaba have all sorts of crap tacked onto their summit crosses - photos, pennants from clubs, champagne or beer bottles - and most of it ends up being blown away to litter the slopes of the mountain.
As for the alpine crosses, though I'm very much an atheist I have nothing against them as I've always considered them a product of the local culture, which I respect as a traveller. If the culture changes, then maybe the cross-placing should change. I encounter prayer flags on passes and the odd summit in the Himalaya (Stok Kangri must have about 150m worth of strings on it as of last year) and never feel the desire to chop them down, because they're part of the local culture.
In the case of Vinson, there is no local or traditional human culture of the area and in that case, not only do I believe removing trash from the mountain is the right thing to do, I also believe no one religious artefact should be left there like some kind of claim or display.
Climbing is about people, not mountains. Done by people, for people. You can't remove people from the multi-factored equation that is climbing.
*I'm guessing they were made and bought in Boulder, CO or somewhere similar.
Post edited at 03:58
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In reply to Doug:
When I was walking in the alps we climbed a small peak and it had an enormous cross on top. So big it needed many thick steel cables to support it, these totally ruined the view.
At the end of the day I guess it's up to the local population, I'm not a big fan though.
When I was walking in the alps we climbed a small peak and it had an enormous cross on top. So big it needed many thick steel cables to support it, these totally ruined the view.
At the end of the day I guess it's up to the local population, I'm not a big fan though.
In reply to Doug:
So what about that massive statue of Christ the Redeemer that we've all been seeing on top of a hill outside Rio on our TVs? Is that any different froma cross?
Leaving a cross or a statue on a mountain top strikes me as an act of selfishness similar to leaving your towel on a beach lounger; if God really did create all of this, what right do Christians have to claim it was their version of God?
So what about that massive statue of Christ the Redeemer that we've all been seeing on top of a hill outside Rio on our TVs? Is that any different froma cross?
Leaving a cross or a statue on a mountain top strikes me as an act of selfishness similar to leaving your towel on a beach lounger; if God really did create all of this, what right do Christians have to claim it was their version of God?
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In reply to Doug:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/carrauntoohil-steel-cross...
Comment perhaps superfluous ...
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/carrauntoohil-steel-cross...
Comment perhaps superfluous ...
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In reply to AlanLittle:
No I wouldn't cut down crosses either. But I still don't like to see the mountains littered with trash. It's 2016 now not the superstitious Middle Ages. Mountains should be secular. Just my view.
No I wouldn't cut down crosses either. But I still don't like to see the mountains littered with trash. It's 2016 now not the superstitious Middle Ages. Mountains should be secular. Just my view.
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In reply to Trangia:
maybe we should dissociate Great Gable with war memorials as well, and acts of remembrance.
maybe we should dissociate Great Gable with war memorials as well, and acts of remembrance.
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In reply to cb294:
I tend to agree. Either that or we become free to show disrespect for any cultural traditions that we feel we want to, whether they harm other people or not. To me they are part of Alpine culture and I decry more the people who just go to the alps to climb and care little for the history, people, culture or wildlife or flora.
I tend to agree. Either that or we become free to show disrespect for any cultural traditions that we feel we want to, whether they harm other people or not. To me they are part of Alpine culture and I decry more the people who just go to the alps to climb and care little for the history, people, culture or wildlife or flora.
Post edited at 10:39
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In reply to Doug:
Reminds me of the bench on Ben Nevis ha-ha
> ....I've been glad to see one appear through the mist....
Reminds me of the bench on Ben Nevis ha-ha
In reply to Trangia:
Nor me. Here's a magnificent cross that was made by a friend of mine in Monthey. http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=281458 The cantons of Valais and Vaud are still very religious, Valais being largely catholic and Vaud largely protestant. They therefore have quite different holidays from each other - so religion therefore affects them in everyday life.
Of course, summit adornments are not always religious. This one is dedicated to rescue helicopter pilots and their teams. A good cause... though I suppose it does look a little religious, come to think of it! http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=149424
Not sure about madonnas, though. Personally I've never believed her story...
> No I wouldn't cut down crosses either. But I still don't like to see the mountains littered with trash.
Nor me. Here's a magnificent cross that was made by a friend of mine in Monthey. http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=281458 The cantons of Valais and Vaud are still very religious, Valais being largely catholic and Vaud largely protestant. They therefore have quite different holidays from each other - so religion therefore affects them in everyday life.
Of course, summit adornments are not always religious. This one is dedicated to rescue helicopter pilots and their teams. A good cause... though I suppose it does look a little religious, come to think of it! http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=149424
Not sure about madonnas, though. Personally I've never believed her story...
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I actually quite like them (provided they are not 30m monstrosities), each and every one different in their own right, and ornate in design.
I consider it to be a part of European Mountain Culture and hope to get to see a lot more summit crosses in situ, before the PC brigade ban them and remove them for fear of offending someone.
I consider it to be a part of European Mountain Culture and hope to get to see a lot more summit crosses in situ, before the PC brigade ban them and remove them for fear of offending someone.
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In reply to Doug:
I generally don't like religion being pushed in my face, so am not keen on the crosses. More to the point is that most of crosses are far bigger than they need to be, and should at least be scaled down.
Perhaps it should be obligatory, that if there is to be a cross that it is no more than a metre high and made of the same rock as that part of the summit instead of metal, with no cables allowed.So a stone mason's cairn-cross. That would be at least a little more fitting with the environment.
I generally don't like religion being pushed in my face, so am not keen on the crosses. More to the point is that most of crosses are far bigger than they need to be, and should at least be scaled down.
Perhaps it should be obligatory, that if there is to be a cross that it is no more than a metre high and made of the same rock as that part of the summit instead of metal, with no cables allowed.So a stone mason's cairn-cross. That would be at least a little more fitting with the environment.
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In reply to veteye:
'and COULD at least be scaled down' is a rather less colonial way of putting it. But you should remember that often they are put in a position where they can be seen by the inhabitants of the valley (and not necessarily on the summit - the cross on the Aiguillette des Posettes above Vallorcine is one such). And hand in hand with that is the necessity for them to be of a certain size. A one metre high stone cross wouldn't exactly fit the bill there. However, far more obtrusive than a cross is the signpost that adorns that particular summit. It did disappear in mysterious circumstances a few years back but another was erected the following year. Really couldn't be arsed to cut it down again...
> More to the point is that most of crosses are far bigger than they need to be, and should at least be scaled down (...) if there is to be a cross that it is no more than a metre high
'and COULD at least be scaled down' is a rather less colonial way of putting it. But you should remember that often they are put in a position where they can be seen by the inhabitants of the valley (and not necessarily on the summit - the cross on the Aiguillette des Posettes above Vallorcine is one such). And hand in hand with that is the necessity for them to be of a certain size. A one metre high stone cross wouldn't exactly fit the bill there. However, far more obtrusive than a cross is the signpost that adorns that particular summit. It did disappear in mysterious circumstances a few years back but another was erected the following year. Really couldn't be arsed to cut it down again...
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In reply to jon:
A one metre high stone cross wouldn't exactly fit the bill there.
Why do you think that I said less in height than one metre?
The locals should get their religious experience by seeing the cross at first hand. Yes I know maybe some of them would fall off some of the peaks.What a shame?
However, far more obtrusive than a cross is the signpost that adorns that particular summit. It did disappear in mysterious circumstances a few years back but another was erected the following year. Really couldn't be arsed to cut it down again...
You may get inspired in the future.
A one metre high stone cross wouldn't exactly fit the bill there.
Why do you think that I said less in height than one metre?
The locals should get their religious experience by seeing the cross at first hand. Yes I know maybe some of them would fall off some of the peaks.What a shame?
However, far more obtrusive than a cross is the signpost that adorns that particular summit. It did disappear in mysterious circumstances a few years back but another was erected the following year. Really couldn't be arsed to cut it down again...
You may get inspired in the future.
In reply to veteye:
They do. Once a year they hold a mass there. Religion is very important to some folk even if you and I don't believe in fairies.
Don't be an arse.
> The locals should get their religious experience by seeing the cross at first hand.
They do. Once a year they hold a mass there. Religion is very important to some folk even if you and I don't believe in fairies.
> Yes I know maybe some of them would fall off some of the peaks.What a shame?
Don't be an arse.
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In reply to MG:
They probably think the same about us... 'Look at them walking around on their hind legs. And they haven't even got horns. Pah!'
They probably think the same about us... 'Look at them walking around on their hind legs. And they haven't even got horns. Pah!'
In reply to Trangia:
I rather support Messner on this. I've always regarded such things on summits as a kind of unnecessary litter. Just about OK if small (i.e. catering for the religious-minded). I feel much the same about gigantic cairns.
> I agree with Messner - they are unsightly things and have no place on a mountain. They should be confined to churches and graveyards.
I rather support Messner on this. I've always regarded such things on summits as a kind of unnecessary litter. Just about OK if small (i.e. catering for the religious-minded). I feel much the same about gigantic cairns.
In reply to Doug:
Removing crosses from Alpine peaks is like renaming the BMC.
If you were to start now with a clean slate, you wouldn't have crosses on peaks or call the national body the British Mountaineering Council. However both are now familiar parts of the landscape and we shouldn't rush to change them.
Removing crosses from Alpine peaks is like renaming the BMC.
If you were to start now with a clean slate, you wouldn't have crosses on peaks or call the national body the British Mountaineering Council. However both are now familiar parts of the landscape and we shouldn't rush to change them.
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In reply to ShortLock:
Funny that isn't it.
> As an aside, the village I live in decided a few years ago that they'd like to put up a large metal cross. After much debate (no one wanted it in front of their house) it was planted at the bottom of our garden (the only atheists in the village).
Funny that isn't it.
In reply to Doug:
The Alphubel has a nice modest little cross you can sit on.
http://tinyurl.com/alphubel
The Alphubel has a nice modest little cross you can sit on.
http://tinyurl.com/alphubel
In reply to flaneur:
One could also compare it to the intolerance of Isis destroying symbols of what it considers as ignorance. Live and let live for goodness sake. Our forebears put crosses sometimes at great effort on great summits. Respect them for their piety whatever you think. By the same argument one should destroy all our churches that form the center of our villages.
One could also compare it to the intolerance of Isis destroying symbols of what it considers as ignorance. Live and let live for goodness sake. Our forebears put crosses sometimes at great effort on great summits. Respect them for their piety whatever you think. By the same argument one should destroy all our churches that form the center of our villages.
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