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I was pondering how should stars be applied to multipitch routes.
For example you have one 3 star pitch and two 1 star pitches. Should the route get 1, 2 or 3 stars?
What if the 3 star pitch is one of the best pitches in the UK?
now imagine there is a forth pitch which is actually unpleasant say slimy rock or similar.
Personally I think you should primarily attribute stars for the best pitch and only start deducting stars for really bad pitches or if the route is very unbalanced quality / difficulty wise.
For example you have one 3 star pitch and two 1 star pitches. Should the route get 1, 2 or 3 stars?
What if the 3 star pitch is one of the best pitches in the UK?
now imagine there is a forth pitch which is actually unpleasant say slimy rock or similar.
Personally I think you should primarily attribute stars for the best pitch and only start deducting stars for really bad pitches or if the route is very unbalanced quality / difficulty wise.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Quality of the route as a whole.
Then take one off to reduce the "star inflation" that has been occuring for the last 10+ years.
Quality of the route as a whole.
Then take one off to reduce the "star inflation" that has been occuring for the last 10+ years.
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In reply to ianstevens:
Ok so a 3 pitch climb, say first and 3rd are very high quality 3 star climbing and the middle a 1 star pitch. Would you only give the route 2 stars?
An example is Clean Sweep on Hells Lum, a 4 pitch route.
I think its a 3 star route, the poor second pitch (either damp and slimey or dried and dirty mud / veg) doesn't take any stars away. Only the 3 rd pitch is 3 stars. The others 2 pitches (bar the poor one) are 1-2 star. A friend of mine thinks its 1-2 star route.
Ok so a 3 pitch climb, say first and 3rd are very high quality 3 star climbing and the middle a 1 star pitch. Would you only give the route 2 stars?
An example is Clean Sweep on Hells Lum, a 4 pitch route.
I think its a 3 star route, the poor second pitch (either damp and slimey or dried and dirty mud / veg) doesn't take any stars away. Only the 3 rd pitch is 3 stars. The others 2 pitches (bar the poor one) are 1-2 star. A friend of mine thinks its 1-2 star route.
Post edited at 11:17
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In reply to CurlyStevo:
Sorry slightly off topic and doesn't answer you questions. Whilst stars will give you an indication of the best routes at a crag, I have mixed feelings about their use in a guide book, because they tend to channel climbers onto them resulting in over climbing (including polish) of the best routes and more neglect of unstarred routes - tendency at times for vegetation to develop and more lichen etc.
Sorry slightly off topic and doesn't answer you questions. Whilst stars will give you an indication of the best routes at a crag, I have mixed feelings about their use in a guide book, because they tend to channel climbers onto them resulting in over climbing (including polish) of the best routes and more neglect of unstarred routes - tendency at times for vegetation to develop and more lichen etc.
Post edited at 11:33
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In reply to CurlyStevo:
As you've implied, it depends entirely as to whether you think the poor pitches detract enough from the overall experince of the route to result in the loss of stars that the "nationally significant*" pitch(es) earn. You can't have a hard and fast "rule" I don't think, it's different for each and every route and should be assessed as such.
I've not done the example you use so can't judge I'm afraid.
*I was always under the impression that this is what a three star route was supposed to be - good when compared with climbing in the country as a whole.
As you've implied, it depends entirely as to whether you think the poor pitches detract enough from the overall experince of the route to result in the loss of stars that the "nationally significant*" pitch(es) earn. You can't have a hard and fast "rule" I don't think, it's different for each and every route and should be assessed as such.
I've not done the example you use so can't judge I'm afraid.
*I was always under the impression that this is what a three star route was supposed to be - good when compared with climbing in the country as a whole.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I don't think you're going to get anywhere with trying to apply hard rules to an inherently subjective system. All you can do is judge the overall experience of climbing the route.
I don't think you're going to get anywhere with trying to apply hard rules to an inherently subjective system. All you can do is judge the overall experience of climbing the route.
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In reply to ianstevens:
Actually I think you've nailed it. You should be using the stars as quality comparing like with like. So four pitch mountain routes need comparing with other similar length mountain routes. My expectation of a 3 star mountain route for consistent climbing is totally different to a 20 metre grit route.
Actually I think you've nailed it. You should be using the stars as quality comparing like with like. So four pitch mountain routes need comparing with other similar length mountain routes. My expectation of a 3 star mountain route for consistent climbing is totally different to a 20 metre grit route.
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In reply to CurlyStevo:
My guess is you led pitch 1 & 3, and your friend seconded those pitches, leading the others.
My guess is you led pitch 1 & 3, and your friend seconded those pitches, leading the others.
In reply to Trangia:
people often say this, but I'm not sure it's true.
As an example, Holly Tree Grooves (HS) gets 2 stars in the latest guide, but when we did it earlier this summer there was no sign that it had ever been climbed before.
Getting back on topic - the main (2nd) pitch was a 3 star classic which if on its own and at a more mainstream crag would have permanent queues at the bottom. The 3rd pitch was mostly a vegetated scramble which might have attracted a star in a scrambling guide if it weren't for a Severe move right at the end. The 1st pitch however was dirty, friable, and poorly protected with some tree climbing at the end, a definite black spot pitch.
Very hard to grade as a route, I'd give it 3 stars for the overall experience. My partner gave it a grudging 1 star, even though she won the lead of the main pitch. Maybe 2 is about right.
> they tend to channel climbers onto them
people often say this, but I'm not sure it's true.
As an example, Holly Tree Grooves (HS) gets 2 stars in the latest guide, but when we did it earlier this summer there was no sign that it had ever been climbed before.
Getting back on topic - the main (2nd) pitch was a 3 star classic which if on its own and at a more mainstream crag would have permanent queues at the bottom. The 3rd pitch was mostly a vegetated scramble which might have attracted a star in a scrambling guide if it weren't for a Severe move right at the end. The 1st pitch however was dirty, friable, and poorly protected with some tree climbing at the end, a definite black spot pitch.
Very hard to grade as a route, I'd give it 3 stars for the overall experience. My partner gave it a grudging 1 star, even though she won the lead of the main pitch. Maybe 2 is about right.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I definitely think it has to be about the route as whole, and poor pitches in my opinion do detract form the over-all experience of the route. This probably does mean that it's harder to get a 3 star multi-pitch route as getting consistency of quality over that length is going to be less likely.
I climbed Grooved Arête on Tryfan recently which is supposed to be a 3 star classic, but I was generally underwhelmed by the whole experience. Boing broken up by walks/scrambles and lesser pitches made the whole route feel a little artificial (coming across walkers and a proper path half way up the route) and detracted from the whole experience for me.
Is it worth really going through all that effort for one good pitch, when you could have done 6 3* single pitch routes at the same time.
Don't get me wrong there are some fantastic multi-pitch routes out there (most of Bosigran for example) but I do thing a lot of them are over-rated in terms of stars. Perhaps they have to be so that people go to the effort of doing them.
I definitely think it has to be about the route as whole, and poor pitches in my opinion do detract form the over-all experience of the route. This probably does mean that it's harder to get a 3 star multi-pitch route as getting consistency of quality over that length is going to be less likely.
I climbed Grooved Arête on Tryfan recently which is supposed to be a 3 star classic, but I was generally underwhelmed by the whole experience. Boing broken up by walks/scrambles and lesser pitches made the whole route feel a little artificial (coming across walkers and a proper path half way up the route) and detracted from the whole experience for me.
Is it worth really going through all that effort for one good pitch, when you could have done 6 3* single pitch routes at the same time.
Don't get me wrong there are some fantastic multi-pitch routes out there (most of Bosigran for example) but I do thing a lot of them are over-rated in terms of stars. Perhaps they have to be so that people go to the effort of doing them.
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In reply to SuperLee1985:
I loved Grooved Arete did it about a year or two back.
I think you should judge long mountain routes against other similar experiences in the UK - stars should be relative IMO.
Out of interest which other long (200+ metres ish) VDiff in the UK mountains do you think is better?
I've not done it but perhaps observatory ridge. Still you get my drift, there aren't many that long that are better so for me its 3 stars as its a great experience and few better at the grade that length in the UK.
At lower levels Commando ridge is a popular choice although I think Grooved Arete is the better route.
I loved Grooved Arete did it about a year or two back.
I think you should judge long mountain routes against other similar experiences in the UK - stars should be relative IMO.
Out of interest which other long (200+ metres ish) VDiff in the UK mountains do you think is better?
I've not done it but perhaps observatory ridge. Still you get my drift, there aren't many that long that are better so for me its 3 stars as its a great experience and few better at the grade that length in the UK.
At lower levels Commando ridge is a popular choice although I think Grooved Arete is the better route.
Post edited at 15:11
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In reply to CurlyStevo:
Multipitch climbs are given stars for the full on experience. That means that if one of the 10 pitches would be about the best pitch in the whole country... and the remaining 9 so shockin' that you wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot stick... well, I guess it would get the -3 stars...
So, it depends... if the whole route feels like a 3 star experience... or 1 star (or 2). My gut feelin' is that most likely I'd be 2 star dealio... but the again, you never know...
For instance to me personally a 2 or more star route needs to be continuous and have stellar pitches (not necessary all of the pitches). Eg. Vestpillaren on Presten in Lofoten is not a 3 star route, and even 2 might be pushing it. It is simply too uneven not to mention the slimy ending. It's a great line though (namely 'cause of the history and 'cause even punters like me can climb it), but Presten has at least a few better lines (or combo of lines) at not much harder grade.
> I was pondering how should stars be applied to multipitch routes.
Multipitch climbs are given stars for the full on experience. That means that if one of the 10 pitches would be about the best pitch in the whole country... and the remaining 9 so shockin' that you wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot stick... well, I guess it would get the -3 stars...
> For example you have one 3 star pitch and two 1 star pitches. Should the route get 1, 2 or 3 stars?
So, it depends... if the whole route feels like a 3 star experience... or 1 star (or 2). My gut feelin' is that most likely I'd be 2 star dealio... but the again, you never know...
For instance to me personally a 2 or more star route needs to be continuous and have stellar pitches (not necessary all of the pitches). Eg. Vestpillaren on Presten in Lofoten is not a 3 star route, and even 2 might be pushing it. It is simply too uneven not to mention the slimy ending. It's a great line though (namely 'cause of the history and 'cause even punters like me can climb it), but Presten has at least a few better lines (or combo of lines) at not much harder grade.
Post edited at 15:16
In reply to CurlyStevo:
As others have said, you really have to consider each route on its own merits (but compare it with others of similar nature and length). Clean Sweep is undoubtedly a three star route - the first pitch is pretty good, the second easy but leads naturally and directly to the next belay. The 3rd is brilliant and the last one again easier but unremarkable but takes you nicely to the top.
I think the difficulty can sometimes play a part - an unremarkable easier pitch is more easily forgotten than a disappointing harder one, particularly if the latter is the crux of the route. At 4a the less good pitches on Clean Sweep are easier than the better ones but not easy enough to detract IMO. But if you had the same pitches breaking up an otherwise great E1 then I think they would detract more.
Speaking more generally, I don't think you can just go by the best pitch - the stars are for the whole route. So a route with a three star pitch and a couple of less good ones will often get two stars overall (but Clean Sweep has two quality pitches). Hence multi-pitch routes have tougher standards to meet than single pitch lines as one great pitch won't always cut it stars-wise.
As others have said, you really have to consider each route on its own merits (but compare it with others of similar nature and length). Clean Sweep is undoubtedly a three star route - the first pitch is pretty good, the second easy but leads naturally and directly to the next belay. The 3rd is brilliant and the last one again easier but unremarkable but takes you nicely to the top.
I think the difficulty can sometimes play a part - an unremarkable easier pitch is more easily forgotten than a disappointing harder one, particularly if the latter is the crux of the route. At 4a the less good pitches on Clean Sweep are easier than the better ones but not easy enough to detract IMO. But if you had the same pitches breaking up an otherwise great E1 then I think they would detract more.
Speaking more generally, I don't think you can just go by the best pitch - the stars are for the whole route. So a route with a three star pitch and a couple of less good ones will often get two stars overall (but Clean Sweep has two quality pitches). Hence multi-pitch routes have tougher standards to meet than single pitch lines as one great pitch won't always cut it stars-wise.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
That explains a lot!
> we climbed as a three - he got pitch 2, I got pitch 3
That explains a lot!
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Clean sweep
Pitch 1 2 stars hard crux
Pitch 2 Either slimy or dirty or both and not good climbing -1 star easy
Pitch 3 3 stars quite hard
Pitch 4 1-2 stars easy
So by your definition why 3 stars for the route?
I think its 3 stars as the crux pitch is very very good and Pitch 1 and 4 worthwhile climbing. So all in its a 3 star route, I don't down grade it for the inconsistent nature of the climbing and the poor pitch 2 as I expect this compared to other 3 star VS routes that length in the UK. This is why I think you should judge the stars as the route as a whole compared to other similar routes in the UK. Its too easy to get disapointed if you expect a long multipitch easy route to be perfect climbing throughout.
That said compared to Spartan Slab, Clean Sweep isnt really 3 stars IMO, although arguably the crux pitch on clean sweep is better than any pitch on Spartan Slab. I also think Scabbard is a star better than Clean Sweep.
Clean sweep
Pitch 1 2 stars hard crux
Pitch 2 Either slimy or dirty or both and not good climbing -1 star easy
Pitch 3 3 stars quite hard
Pitch 4 1-2 stars easy
So by your definition why 3 stars for the route?
I think its 3 stars as the crux pitch is very very good and Pitch 1 and 4 worthwhile climbing. So all in its a 3 star route, I don't down grade it for the inconsistent nature of the climbing and the poor pitch 2 as I expect this compared to other 3 star VS routes that length in the UK. This is why I think you should judge the stars as the route as a whole compared to other similar routes in the UK. Its too easy to get disapointed if you expect a long multipitch easy route to be perfect climbing throughout.
That said compared to Spartan Slab, Clean Sweep isnt really 3 stars IMO, although arguably the crux pitch on clean sweep is better than any pitch on Spartan Slab. I also think Scabbard is a star better than Clean Sweep.
Post edited at 15:34
In reply to CurlyStevo:
>Stars on multipitch routes
Disappointed. I thought this was an opportunity to tell the world about my watching Bob Carolgees working out where Darius finished, or encountering Rodney Bewes turning the air blue as he failed on the crux pitch of Gormenghast.
Not all of which... would necessarily... be true.
>Stars on multipitch routes
Disappointed. I thought this was an opportunity to tell the world about my watching Bob Carolgees working out where Darius finished, or encountering Rodney Bewes turning the air blue as he failed on the crux pitch of Gormenghast.
Not all of which... would necessarily... be true.
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In reply to CurlyStevo:
An issue I have is stars being given for historical significance/reputation, and not for quality of climbing.
I've sometimes thought that Rockfax draw names out of a hat when giving their Top50 list...
An issue I have is stars being given for historical significance/reputation, and not for quality of climbing.
I've sometimes thought that Rockfax draw names out of a hat when giving their Top50 list...
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In reply to SuperLee1985:
I don't think the Strand is anything other than *** despite having a very easy scrambly top pitch. I think the significance of the chossy pitches if they are done and dusted very quickly don't really affect the overall experience.
> I definitely think it has to be about the route as whole, and poor pitches in my opinion do detract form the over-all experience of the route.
I don't think the Strand is anything other than *** despite having a very easy scrambly top pitch. I think the significance of the chossy pitches if they are done and dusted very quickly don't really affect the overall experience.
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In reply to CurlyStevo:
>
Grooved Arete is superb, but I think Amphitheatre Buttress is at least as good, although it has some crappy scrambling at mid height amply compensated for by the good pitches. Bowfell Buttress is another quality V Diff with quite a serious crux crack which would be graded higher if it wasn't immediately above a wide ledge.
I think Bosigran (Commando) Ridge is very over rated apart from the superb first zawn pitch.
> I loved Grooved Arete did it about a year or two back.
> I think you should judge long mountain routes against other similar experiences in the UK - stars should be relative IMO.
> Out of interest which other long (200+ metres ish) VDiff in the UK mountains do you think is better?
>
> At lower levels Commando ridge is a popular choice although I think Grooved Arete is the better route.
Grooved Arete is superb, but I think Amphitheatre Buttress is at least as good, although it has some crappy scrambling at mid height amply compensated for by the good pitches. Bowfell Buttress is another quality V Diff with quite a serious crux crack which would be graded higher if it wasn't immediately above a wide ledge.
I think Bosigran (Commando) Ridge is very over rated apart from the superb first zawn pitch.
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In reply to CurlyStevo:
I don't think pitch 2 was slimy when I did it, but I did pick a good dry spell. I've probably said enough about the route already in terms of justifying stars and sounds as though we pretty much agree on it. I would say Spartan is probably similar quality overall (***), though obviously very different. Personally I prefer Clean Sweep as I really like Hell's Lum.
The thing with the Etchachan routes (whether Dagger, Djibangi, Scabbard, Sgian Dubh or Stiletto) is the 2nd pitches are much better than the first or top pitches so I'd find it hard to justify *** for any of these. Clean Sweep is different as there are two main good pitches, not just one (and it's longer). If I had to pick I'd say Dagger is the best of the Etchachan routes as in my opinion the big corner pitch is as good as any, anywhere.
I don't think pitch 2 was slimy when I did it, but I did pick a good dry spell. I've probably said enough about the route already in terms of justifying stars and sounds as though we pretty much agree on it. I would say Spartan is probably similar quality overall (***), though obviously very different. Personally I prefer Clean Sweep as I really like Hell's Lum.
The thing with the Etchachan routes (whether Dagger, Djibangi, Scabbard, Sgian Dubh or Stiletto) is the 2nd pitches are much better than the first or top pitches so I'd find it hard to justify *** for any of these. Clean Sweep is different as there are two main good pitches, not just one (and it's longer). If I had to pick I'd say Dagger is the best of the Etchachan routes as in my opinion the big corner pitch is as good as any, anywhere.
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In reply to Trangia:
I agree about Commando Ridge, although its still a fun climb.
I've embarrassingly not done those other VDiffs you mention.
I've done eagle ridge (S) which I thought was brilliant (both times ) but also some people think its over rated because not every pitch is top quality and 1 pitch in particular is quite poor.
I agree about Commando Ridge, although its still a fun climb.
I've embarrassingly not done those other VDiffs you mention.
I've done eagle ridge (S) which I thought was brilliant (both times ) but also some people think its over rated because not every pitch is top quality and 1 pitch in particular is quite poor.
In reply to Trangia:
I'd have agreed with you, but did it again a couple of years ago and thought it was superb. Perhaps the exact line taken helps.
I still have to go back as I've not yet done the first pitch - first visit was high tide, last time was low tide but I still managed to get engulfed on the way down so retreated to the top of the pitch.
> I think Bosigran (Commando) Ridge is very over rated apart from the superb first zawn pitch.
I'd have agreed with you, but did it again a couple of years ago and thought it was superb. Perhaps the exact line taken helps.
I still have to go back as I've not yet done the first pitch - first visit was high tide, last time was low tide but I still managed to get engulfed on the way down so retreated to the top of the pitch.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
The first pitch is the only 3* pitch on the route IMO (or is it technically the second pitch?). Anyway the steep one up the groove / crack system.
The first pitch is the only 3* pitch on the route IMO (or is it technically the second pitch?). Anyway the steep one up the groove / crack system.
Post edited at 18:01
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In reply to CurlyStevo:
There was a great pitch further up - the Rockfax book says to keep left here and go up a groove, I took the steep flake direct at about HS 4a so not much harder, I can still remember it in detail 2 years on so must be worth 3*
There was a great pitch further up - the Rockfax book says to keep left here and go up a groove, I took the steep flake direct at about HS 4a so not much harder, I can still remember it in detail 2 years on so must be worth 3*
In reply to Luke90:
yes! the scrambling and dirty rock will fall into insignificance when there's been otherwise quality content
yes! the scrambling and dirty rock will fall into insignificance when there's been otherwise quality content
In reply to Trangia:
Well, Grooved Arete is good in the second half, after a scruffy start.
The best v.diffs I've done (off top of head, may have missed some) are:
New West Climb, Pillar Rock
Sou'wester Slabs, Cir Mhor, Arran
Carrot Ridge, Ben Cor, Twelve Bens
Well, Grooved Arete is good in the second half, after a scruffy start.
The best v.diffs I've done (off top of head, may have missed some) are:
New West Climb, Pillar Rock
Sou'wester Slabs, Cir Mhor, Arran
Carrot Ridge, Ben Cor, Twelve Bens
In reply to Trangia:
I think the star rating would be wasted if it wasn't included in guidebooks, it might help drive traffic away from "classics" with queues on them onto nearby one or two * routes that visitors to an area might not have heard of.
I think the star rating would be wasted if it wasn't included in guidebooks, it might help drive traffic away from "classics" with queues on them onto nearby one or two * routes that visitors to an area might not have heard of.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Good call on sw Slabs that's a brilliant climb, never vdiff up those finishing chimneys also on s ridge direct, they have to be s / hs imo! 4 stars maybe
Good call on sw Slabs that's a brilliant climb, never vdiff up those finishing chimneys also on s ridge direct, they have to be s / hs imo! 4 stars maybe
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