UKC

Holy shit, seems that the thread about Rockfax topos has been closed down after a few critical (but nevertheless polite and reasoned) comments. I suppose this is the problem when you have the same person controlling access to the UK's most popular climbing forum and running the UK's most successful guidebook publisher. You toe the line or we close the discussion!!

I am hardly surprised that Alan has felt the need to do this. Rockfax as a concept is fundamentally flawed in the same way that large distribution chains are. They steamroller the local producers and end up calling all the shots.

I don't think you have to worry though Alan, consumers overwhelmingly choose convenience over ethics.

Now you'll be happy to learn that my life is very full at the moment and I have no desire to get sucked into a public debate about the merits and faults of Rockfax (last time I was recovering from a broken ankle!). In any case I have found you to be much more conciliatory when communicating privately than when you feel obliged to don your Rockfax owner cap.

Nevertheless I'd like to bring up a couple of things you posted in defence of Rockfax so that maybe you and your customers can reflect on them.

First you say that revenue from Rockfax helps subsidise UKC. Are you seriously saying that money which could be used to finance crag maintenance in the areas where you operate is being channelled into this website to supplement advertising revenue. You also mentioned that you do not have enough funds to contribute to rebolting in Kalymnos. The Vampire analogy suddenly seems very appropriate!

Secondly, while you are correct in saying that re-bolting in the Mont Blanc massif is generally done through private initiative, this is not the case in the Arve valley (which your book apparently also covers to some degree) as you very well know. Here bolting, re-bolting and maintenance is organised by a local association and funded through guidebook sales. Now you say that you contribute to this effort by giving equipment to a friend and colleague, but don't you think your customers would rather see a more transparent and less cliquey scheme in operation ie. a given percentage of guidebook sales going to the local association who maintain most of the French crags which you describe in your book?

For someone who so stridently defended the UK's membership of the EU, I would have thought you would have been more willing to encourage local, inclusive initiatives rather than perpetuate the ex-pat dynamic which is so prevalent in many parts of France and Spain. But then maybe we don't share the same vision of Europe.

ps the Rockfax guide to the Mont Blanc massif was my idea (see original Vampire thread). I trust I'll be getting a backhander.

In reply to nb:

Chamonix Rockfax still appears to be up and running.

I have just posted a test post.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Yeah creepy, it's back up for me too now but it was definitely closed for a bit. This thread also disappeared for a while. I was waiting for the knock at the door!

In reply to nb:


Yes, how dare he run his own company as he sees fit.

In reply to nb:

At no stage have any of these threads been removed or closed. It can sometimes appear that a thread is closed if you have logged out and refresh an old cached page though.

Alan

In reply to planetmarshall:


It may be Alan's company but as nb points out (potential/actual ) conflicts of interest may exist.

In reply to nb:


No, I am saying that from around 15 years ago to about 3 or 4 years ago, UKC didn't earn enough money from advertising (zero before 2005) to fund itself. The support offered by Rock and Run (up to 2008) and Rockfax laid the foundation for the site as you see it today. It does now cover its costs which coincides with the same period that we have been able to set up the bolt funding initiatives like UKBoltFund.org


We tie the funds to our publications. The Kalymnos App has been out since February but hasn't sold many so far. This is why we haven't yet made a contribution from it.


I don't think any Arve Valley crags are covered in the Chamonix Rockfax unless Servoz is in there. We are working with Gilles to make an App version of his book so hopefully we will be able to generate some funds using that route.

Alan

In reply to Rick Graham:


He hasn't pointed out anything other than a load of anti-corporate and disingenuous waffle from what I can tell.

In reply to planetmarshall:

And a bizarrely contrived comparison with Brexit, don't forget the bizarrely contrived comparison with Brexit.

In reply to planetmarshall:

The two threads are discussions on guidebooks and bolt funding.

Clarity, openness and honesty are generally to be applauded.

In reply to Rick Graham:


Indeed. Which is why if nb really did

...have no desire to get sucked into a public debate about the merits and faults of Rockfax

This was an odd way to go about it.

In reply to Lemony:


Why not? The B word could affect everything.

In reply to Lemony:

Hopefully Corbyn will nationalise Rockfax

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

In which case, hypothetically, can I then assume that should another business be taking advance orders for the Chamonix Rockfax at a price substantially undercutting the Rockfax Special Offer price, any posts mentioning this would not be removed from any UKC thread?

In reply to Mr. Lee:


And call it 'Climb UK' possibly?

In reply to nb:

I think the responsibility lies with travelling climbers to buy the local topos (I try to even when it's just a photocopied piece of A4) to support the placement of bolts which we all use.
This is in addition to the (generally) excellent Rockfax (or not, it's up to you).
The publishers of excellent guides are guilty of, well, working hard and producing excellent guides.

In reply to nb:
The usual moan about RF. No mention of the fact that RF have propelled guide book standards by decades and the fact that RF guide books are often better than whatever is available locally (why should occasional visitors get a local guide book if it's not as good and not as easy to buy in the UK?).

Also, to what extent are locals buying RF instead of local guide books? Brits are presumably overwhelmingly buying RF but what share of the market is that? If there wasn't a RF available, how many of these British customers would buy a local guide book as opposed to just going somewhere else? In other words, to what extent does RF eat into thre local market as opposed to creating a bigger market? I was speaking with a Dolomites guide recently and he hadn't even heard of RF.

In reply to Misha:



I've occasionally seen climbers with a Rockfax around here and assumed that they were non French, only to find that they were, despite it being all in English. In general though it's rare and without getting into conversation with them or seeing their car it's difficult to tell if they're local. However, Nearly all Germans, Eastern European and Scandinavian climbers seem to have Rockfax.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:


Well if they paid for advertising then theoretically no, but we remove all commercial threads anyway so this is a bit of a different situation.

Alan

In reply to Mr. Lee:


brilliant!

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:


I always do when I can. But they're often hard/impossible to find and can almost never be bought in advance via the interweb.

In reply to nb:
I have been contacted privately by Alan and we have exchanged emails. After a rather chaotic start due to a bizarre miscommunication we were able to discuss the issues that I raised in my original post. He no longer wishes to communicate with me either privately or on this forum, but since I raised certain concerns, I now have a responsibility to address them again in light of the information he's given me. I will try to be as objective as possible and not divulge any information which Alan confided privately.

Concerning my suggestion that the thread may have been locked, Alan is adamant that this was not the case. For almost an hour I was unable to interact with the initial Rockfax thread, despite the fact that I was fully logged in and could interact with other threads and use other UKC features which are reserved for logged-in users. Alan insists that this can be a problem with some browsers, particularly Chrome (which I was using at the time). I have no reason to disbelieve him.

Concerning my wish for greater transparency with regards to his contributions to guidebook-funded bolting efforts, Alan went into quite a bit more detail privately than he did on this forum. He says that he cannot do this publicly because of liability issues, political issues and simply because the information is not always available to him. He seems to prefer private initiatives to using established funds, arguing that the money is channelled more directly to where he thinks it is most appropriate. However even with this extra information I am really none the wiser about what percentage of profits Rockfax contributes to crag maintenance. It seems that Alan would like us to trust that he is doing the right thing, however I personally still have serious misgivings about his statement that Rockfax subsides UKC but is unable to contribute to bolting in Kalymnos.

Concerning the new Chamonix Rockfax, the book apparently does not cover any areas where bolting is financed through guidebook sales, so on that front I have zero gripe about this book (as if anybody cared!).

Alan has also asked that if I post again on the forums I should 'come clean' about who I am. Now much as I'd like to admit to running a drugs' cartel or spying for Russia I am in fact just a common or garden mountain guide. Alan's request to 'come clean' is based on the fact that he thinks mountain guides should contribute to bolt funds because we also use the resource. It is obvious from this that not only do Alan and I disagree on Rockfax's responsibilities, but we are not even actually arguing about the same thing. As a has-been climber and an aging guide I respect the local consensus on how to equip and maintain the crags. I pay my taxes locally, buy local guidebooks, pay commission to guides' offices and even sleep in mountain huts. These all provide funding for bolting (whether you like it or not!). This system has its faults but it's functioned reasonably well for the past few decades. No guiding work I do will ever have an adverse effect on collecting money for bolt funds. If ever I go anywhere where bolting is funded through donations by mountain guides I hereby commit to pay my dues. I don't expect Alan as an individual to do any more than me, nor am I asking for UKC to contribute either (this would be slightly ironic since we now know that UKC is subsidised by Rockfax!). However in areas where bolting is funded through guidebook sales, Rockfax as a company have a moral responsibility to contribute on a par with the local guidebook. Alan seems to be saying "Trust me, we are", and I wish I could just go with that but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for more concrete evidence.

Alan accuses me of being an 'armchair moaner' and while I can live with that I should point out that I have consistently lauded the contribution that UKC's Jon has made to climbing in France (merci Jon!). So I'm also happy to give credit where it's due.

In reply to nb:

... and your point is, caller?

In reply to john arran:


"I don't trust Alan"

In reply to john arran:


"Also, my pension is invested in a keyboard manufacturer"

In reply to john arran:


That honesty is more important than ego.

In reply to nb:

Maybe you should trust Alan and approach this in a more mature manner. There is no regulations for bolt funds as such and no accountability as to how money is spent. There are issues and sometimes people who understand the system well, Like Alan, who needs to take steps that other people don't understand in order to ensure funds go to the right people. Rockfax DO contribute significantly to bolt funds, but this has to be the based on sales + contributions for the area the guide covers and nothing else. This also needs to be a fixed amount otherwise financially it becomes an issue.

Guidebook production has evolved and it costs money to produce them and lots of time and effort. So the question is really why should a single author who has spent many years creating a guide that helps both the individual using it and also brings recognition to the people who created those routes amongst may many other environmental awareness issues, then become the only person in the world that is responsible for financing the re bolting of a crag or the up keep of it? You seem to thing Authors press a magic button and,, puff out pops a book. Let me be clear, Authors contribute in so many way, not all financial or visible.

Realistically your in a worse position, as an ex guide you were making money from actualy using the equipment (bolts) every day. Guidebooks don't make there money out of the rocks so to say, they are a guide to them. So if any one was to contribute heavily its users as Rockfax is already contribute where appropriate. Also Authors bolt as well so we are well aware of what's involved.

Also think about this:
A guide is a product / tool used just like boots, quick draws etc. So perhaps the question is why are ‘climbing hardware equipment manufactures not paying for the bolts of which you buy your quick draws to clip into, ropes to protect you, boots to move you etc’. That is the view of some big bolters who dedicated years of their lives to developing areas. It’s important to understand a guide books role in all this, including how an area develops and the authors role in that process, which is always, positive no matter how you look at it. Writing a guide is giving back.

Some guide book producers who give all their money to bolt funds but they still have to re coop their costs and the question needs to be asked, what is the next step in the evolution of that guide and what is being financed, Some guides just die as they are unaffordable to produce, and this has already started to happen.

Have you written a letter to any manufacturers yet like DMM, Petzil etc? probably not, or even climbing magazines? Wow much do they contribute to bolts. Who knows? but stop pointing the finger at Alan, Rockfax, UKC and perhaps skip a session at the climbing wall, and donate that £10 to a bolt fund.

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:


Clearly you know nothing of the day to day work of the average guide.

In reply to nb:

This thread has definitely not been archived/locked AT ANY POINT IN TIME! http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=648951

It would show in the server logs.

Are you sure you didn't switch to private browsing or something (ie. you weren't logged in)

In reply to nb:


...and clarity's a lot more important than innuendo.

In reply to jon:

Possibly he doesn´ t but sure as sh#t I see the climbing holiday companies lining up to use bolts I installed for recreational climbers for their commercial operations and I know exactly how much they contribute. Never even a beer from the 14 companies using one of the areas I developed.
The only reasonable way to fund bolting and particularly re-bolting/maintenance is going to be a levy on all those making a profit from the areas, such as the local economies, the climbing equipment industry, organised groups and (probably last knowing a bit about the revenues and costs in guidebooks) guide book publishers.
Trying to get a fair contribution from the climbers themselves is a waste of effort most of the time!

In reply to jon:
Read it again Jon. I have worked with guides, know guides. And its a Job they are doing, and a hard one at that, but again guides and instructors are using the equipment, fact. Shift the focus please.

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:


I would suggest that we all need to contribute, users and associated businesses,

to bolting, bolt replacement programs, access and crag maintenance, local economies with time, expertise and money.

In reply to jimtitt:


Possibly true, unfortunately, but that is no reason for not trying.

In the early 90's the South Lakes' bolt fund main income source was topo sales. All income from them pumped back into bolts. We even did topos to pure trad areas to make money. It used to do quite well.

That's all well and good for a volunteer organisation, but a problem now is that a lot of/some areas are not adequately funded for bolt replacement programs which in my experience is a separate issue to original bolting.

As climbers, we need to wake up to the fact that unless we contribute personally in addition to commercial organisations, the situation is not sustainable.
Buying a Rockfax with a " we contribute to local bolting " note inside is just not enough.

( Other guidebooks/methods of contribution are available, not having a go, Alan )

In reply to jimtitt:

Yes, I can sympathise with your point about commercial operators... I see it all the time. However around Chamonix - and after all that's where this thread stemmed from, the crags that are mobbed by such groups have been specifically equipped by the local guides.

My point to Daimon and his 'using bolts every day', Jim, was that a guide's work (for your average guide) is rarely on bolted terrain. The bulk of a guide's work is in the mountains on classic alpine terrain. (Obviously bolts have unfortunately started to appear there also, but of course, as detractors of guides will point out, it will inevitably have been the guides that have placed them anyway! ). But I'd say that in twenty five years I probably spent less than a dozen work days on fully equipped bolted routes - and some of those were doing routes that I'd bolted anyway!

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:


It wasn't me that mentioned it...

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:
Yes but remember, Rockfax usually produce select guide books using the existing information from definitive books that have been produced locally by semi-volunteers, usually with much blood sweat and tears!

Maybe as well as contributing to bolt funds they should contribute to the clubs and individuals that produce the definitive?

In reply to jimtitt:


People seem to forget that if crag maintenance is funded through guidebook sales, it is ultimately the buyer (ie the climber) who pays. This is why it's important to know to what extent your guidebook publisher is contributing.

In reply to Long Pinky:

That is a very short sited view.  Yes, all new guides draw on information from many sources, It's what ALL guide book authors do, Rockfax or local. The evolution of an area needs modern thinking. Look at Clwyd Limestone. The last local guide came out 23 years ago. The Rockfax guide re activated it. And again, Rockfax authors work extremely hard, and they also have to put up with people throwing stones all the time, which is not on.

We live in a modern world, and we have a choice in the guides we buy. If people wish to buy a selective guide then great, or a local guide, then great. But let them choose. How many font guides are out there? How many versions of the Bible are out there? How many people actually knew Jesus who wrote those additional bibles?

Bolting can not be funded by guide books alone as pointed out in my last post. Also those 'semi volunteers' claim expenses, they have to as those doing lots of work will bankrupt them self’s.

In reply to nb:


What? Again people are buying a guide, guides cost money to make and years to produce. Rockfax is clear in what they give. You really need to look at what Jim put, he has a very good grasp of the situation, honest! And you need to expand further on the funding idea, not just focusing in on a book. Give 5.10 a call etc.

In reply to Long Pinky:



Rockfax and the other guide producers provide the information which enables customers to enjoy the outdoor experience, perhaps there is a case for the outdoor industry to subsidise Rockfax et al?

In reply to nb:

I can´ t think of an area where guide revenue would even start to make a dent in the maintenance, if there is one (probably one lurking in Spain or France) it must be either an amazingly good selling guide or a tiny area.
The guidebook funding concept in my experience either leads to piss-poor guides, piss-poor bolting or both, a guide written by someone dissasociated from the direct equipping of an area tends to be a better product and not some blinkered locals work of "art".
I deal with about 50 bolt funds and have developed a few areas myself, one of my climbing partners is one of Germany´ s biggest guide publishers and I don´ t see emasculating guide production to pay for a few bolts is the long term solution.
(I supplied the bolts to Rockfax for the Chamonix area and naturally the more Rockfax buy the better but I still disagree that they should be forced to do anything or "come clean on their involvement in any shape or form. They are a commercial operation, the don´ t hide the fact.)

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:

Daimon, just a word. Don't assume that everyone on this thread is stupid and doesn't know what they are talking about. It'd be a big mistake.

In reply to nb:
Incidentally, this criticism seems to be only ever levelled at RF, yet there are other guide book publishers out there (both volunteer and private) who contribute little or nothing to bolt funds (while at the other extreme you have people like Pete Harrison with NW Lime who is I believe donating all profits to the bolt fund).

In reply to jimtitt:


All fair comment, Jim, about the funding of maintenance.

Agreed Rockfax are a commercial operation.
How to run their business is their decision.
Putting money back into the sport and declaring such may be part of their business model.
It can be based on commercial or moral principles, perhaps both.

In reply to jon:

Jon, Just a word back. I don't.
And in addition to that I don't think I made comments leading to that effect. And in addition avoid making threats. Keep on subject, be nice.

In reply to Misha:
Mish, Rockfax bashing has been a national sport since 1994.

Alan must like the free publicity cos he even funds the website to do it on.

Edit. Most climbers still buy them though.

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:


Well stop acting like it.

In reply to jon:

Read my edited response please.

In reply to Daimon - Rockfax:


Well now you've just lost me completely.

In reply to jimtitt:


It seems to me like this is the real issue. Some basic numbers make it pretty clear:

bolts / route: 7 (inc belay)
price / bolt: 3.5 euro
routes / area: 1000
guidebook cost: 30 euro
prop guidebook costs to bolt fund: 10%

With the above, you'd need to sell 8,050 books just to fund the initial development, and I suspect these estimates are very conservative.

In reply to jimtitt:


I don't know of many guidebooks that publicise how much money they generate, or even publish information about how local bolting is funded. It has always seemed a bit of a missed opportunity to me if that is the raison d'être for some of these guidebooks to exist. I would have thought that proper information and associated Paypal donation sites would be the minimum these days to help publicise the cause. In a sample of French guidebooks I have here there is almost no mention of bolt funding in any of them.

From a legal standpoint I can understand this. It is better not to have any particular body/company associated with a set of bolts. If certain bolts are know to be 'the local guidebook bolts' then you open yourself up for liability claims and also put yourself in a position where you have a duty of care to maintain the bolts.

However, there are easy ways round this which the Paypal donation system works well with. You just keep a general pot which accepts all donations which is used by climbers acting as individuals and not on behalf of anyone. That way no donation is ever associated with any particular bolts. This also works fine in that most bolt funds are a bit ad hoc anyway and they don't tend to keep public records. As a climbing community we shouldn't encourage public records and full accountability for bolting activities since that way only leads to problems. That isn't to say that we shouldn't keep records - it is useful to know when routes have been rebolted - but don't make a big song and dance about finding out who did what when.

Alan

In reply to remus:

Its a bit late for finesse in accounting but the numbers make more sense if a locally produced guide topo funds bolt maintenance. Ball park figures.

Assume the crag has been fully developed by local enthusiasts.
The bolts do not last forever say average 15 years.
Using your figures rebolting cost 24500 euro
1635 euros per year or 544 topos at 3 euros each. All proceeds to bolt fund.

10 topos a week for a thousand route crag, easy ?

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

>

I think a lot of bolt funds understand or are at least aware of the liability conundrum. Their constitutions attempt to address these issues.

The Paypal donation system, however, will only work well when it is accepted that all bolt users should contribute.

"A Penny a Clip" could be a good standard. If everybody donated a penny for every bolt used on a day out, the bolts could be maintained to a good standard. Peanuts compared to the cost of gear and getting to the crag.
A simple to use formula only practical if the donation system is equally easy.

In reply to Misha:


The NW Limestone is an interesting one. That is an admirable effort that has generated a decent amount of money and needs all the plaudits it gets. However I am sure the publisher would also acknowledge that it was a massive labour of love and unsustainable in the long term. There is certainly no way I could run a guidebook publishing business if all the funds we generated had to be donated to bolting and access. It is a full-time professional business and we need something to live on.

What Jim says above about guidebooks for bolting funds leading to poor guidebooks is true. But why should someone who is good at climbing, bolting or guiding be good at producing a guidebook? - it is a very different and sophisticated skill nowadays. It doesn't surprise me that the end results are often unhelpful, badly designed, inaccurate, uninspiring, over-priced, difficult to get hold of and remarkably limited in their coverage. If it was really about generating money from these things then you'd think it would make more sense to produce a quality product that is desirable, inspiring and easily available. That way you would sell more and make more money.

Climbers have got used to better guidebooks that cover big areas, are glossy, inspiring and easy to get hold of before you travel to the area. It is not sustainable to have this type of guidebook and expect them to fund bolting in the same way as the local efforts. But they can do a job of promoting funding, encourage donation and make donations themselves. However the job is way bigger than just guidebooks could manage anyway and it needs all those that benefit from the presence of bolts to acknowledge this and do their part.

Alan

In reply to nb:
This is lame.
Buy what ever guide you want mate - no one cares.

If you thought of the Cham guide why didn't you go and do it yourself?

Go climbing or something instead.
Sad act...

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:


Well as I pointed out yesterday, Gilles's does. But rather than bang on about the Chamonix/Arve Valley area, if we look further afield and just pick the first guide that comes to (my) hand... the Dentelles (published by CAF Avignon). In the intro Olivier Gaude, talking about his equipping, re-equipping, and path maintenance, says:


However, it's generally accepted in France that topo sales go towards funding the equipment and so if a guide doesn't actually mention it, it's probably because it's a given. As you know, I've been a Rockfax fan for years and have all the French and Spanish ones - but also all the local ones of every area that I climb at. I think this is a good balance and I'm sure other climbers do and think the same.

In reply to remus:







Those numbers seem odd to me, 7 bolts per route including the belay would be pretty small routes, and £3.50 per bolt also sound very low - I suspect doubling both those numbers might be more realistic, which would quadruple how much you would need to raise,

Chris

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

As a side note:

Alan,

I have the occasional issue with the way you guys work, but generally... ukc and rockfax are fantastic, have massively aided my climbing and provided me with an unlimited amount of info for all around the world.

Thank you!

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Hence why I said '...these estimates are very conservative.' at the end of my post. Conservative in the sense that youd probably have to sell a lot more books than my 8k estimate.

The 3.5 euro / bolt figure is straight from Jim's website: http://www.bolt-products.com/ProtectionBolts.htm

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:


At least the choice is now clear!

In reply to bouldery bits:


Plenty of people do care, because the underlying issue is about how bolting efforts are funded.

Currently it relies on huge input in time and money from an exceedingly small number of very dedicated individuals. To use an example from the UK, Gary Gibson must have sunken tens of thousands of pounds of his own money in to hardware alone, not to mention the thousands of hours of his time that have gone in to cleaning and equipping. Now he's no saint, and Im sure he has his own motivations, but Id call that a pretty good effort.

Long term, relying on a small number of people putting in a back breaking effort isn't a good way of doing things.

In reply to remus:


Yes I realised that, I was trying to flesh the numbers out a bit.


Cheaper than I anticipated, I assume the glue needed is an add-on.

I was partly thinking of Kalymnos where many of the routes are 14 bolts long and the double crab lower-offs cost something like €60 (if my memory isn't going),

Chris

In reply to Rick Graham:


Who's going to produce this topo? It'll have to be a slick operation if you actually want to sell these puppies in volume. And what about keeping it up to date? Assuming some development occurs in this 15 year period. What about the cost of actually publishing this thing? and who are you going to get to distribute these topos?

In reply to remus:
I was trying to illustrate how the locally produced topo could and has funded bolting programs.

Local climbing shops and cafes managed before the internet age, I am sure it could be done efficiently on line.

However, I am not convinced it is the best option, just a facet in the equation, hence another bump to this thread.

(As if it needs it.)

In reply to jimtitt:



Check out Gilles Brunot's post on the other thread. He manages to spend 5000€ a year on maintenance and his topos and bolting are far from being 'piss-poor'. Despite what the Rockfaxers keep telling us, topo funding can actually work very well. Plenty of examples in France. Some of them even manage to be 'glossy'!

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
I just used NWL as an example of the other end of the scale - I wasn't suggesting that RF should emulate that. Pete doesn't make his living from producing guide books, whereas you do. My main point was that RF is being singled out for criticism, whereas many other UK guidebook producers don't contribute much or anything at all. Admittedly some of them cover primarily trad areas but not exclusively so.

In reply to nb:

So in your ideal world, what exactly is it you expect from Alan and Rockfax? Give up producing guidebooks, shut down UKC and start shelf stacking at Argos?

The idea of full transparency when it comes to bolt funding is a laudable one, but beyond a couple of isolated examples no other guidebook publishers see it is an issue, so why single out Rockfax for criticism?

The most well organised effort to encourage climbers to make a direct contribution seems to be UkBoltFund... and who was it who set that up?

In reply to Rick Graham:

The problem with your example is that you'd need to sell 500 books a year for 15 years. That's actually a hell of a lot as far as guide book sales are concerned! You'd be amazed how few guide books actually get sold to major climbing areas. May be the sales figures for Euro sport areas are significantly higher than for UK trad areas, after all it's sport climbing and some of the destinations are very popular. Even so, 500 guide books year in, year out is a lot. Climbers are tight so and sos!

The other thing I don't know is how much local guides sold through the coffee shook on the corner etc can afford to donate per copy. Perhaps it's a lot more than a UK guidebook producer could, if they don't pay anything to a distributor and only a small margin to the coffee shop. The margins for UK guidebook publishers are pretty tight.

In reply to jon:


I don't think it as clear as that. I know several areas where it isn't the case so for it to be assumed as a given is at best ambiguous. It also seems to be a major missed opportunity to actually appeal to the climbers using the books. An explanation of how much a book gives, and where other funding comes from would be a huge benefit to appealing to climbers to put their own hands in their pockets. Putting that in English would be a plus too. Combine that with an easy Paypal donation system and you have genuine fund raising potential. As it stands the system seems to be inflexible and inefficient especially at producing decent guidebooks.


I agree that both systems can work together and 7 years in from the first Rockfax we are still not sure what the actual impact is on local funding. Does it bring more climbers? If so, is that a problem, or do they end up visiting more different crags? Do they end up buying locals topos anyway? Is there a shortfall in funding? I don't know the answer to these question but I will try and put a bit of effort in to find out.

Alan

In reply to ashtond6:





And thank you for that comment.

Alan

In reply to jon:

Interesting - I would have guessed the other way round.


Do you know how these bolts etc are typically funded? Local guides? Tourist office/tax? I saw some work being done on Dent d'Herens this summer with four people being landed and collected by helicopter, which must have cost several hundred Euro at least for just two bolts and a chain.

In reply to Misha:


I am not sure this is such a big issue in the UK though. If you look at the actual sums involved, then guidebook production be it from clubs or companies like Rockfax, are the wrong target in the long run anyway. All our outdoor companies benefit from access to crags and bolted routes and the whole industry has a collective responsibility to fund it. If this is done as a proportion of turnover then commercial guidebooks would be fairly low on the list and volunteer-produced club guidebooks even lower.

Alan

In reply to Misha:


The margin may be better by restricting to selected self-supplied outlets, but the overall numbers sold and turnover don't even get close to what you get by doing full scale proper international distribution. I have never really understood this restrictive-distribution approach in bolt-funding guidebooks - it does seem to agree with the idea that it isn't really about the money raised.

Alan

In reply to nb:

As well as looking at cafes, publishers and quickdraw manufacturers, it would also be wise for bolt funds to make themselves accessible and easy to donate to. Make it easy for people to donate, tweet, share on Facebook, and they're more likely to. I was looking recently - it was Alan that helped me out with the right link. I've used the internet before, it wasn't obvious

In reply to Rick Graham:




A brilliant idea.

Mick

In reply to MG:


I'm sure Jon is correct, at least for French guides, but don't forget that rock climbing is mostly taught by 'monitor/trice d'escalade' (climbing instructors, maybe comparable to British MIC) in France. I'm sure they spend most of their time on bolted routes & they rather than guides might consider helping fund bolting, if they don't already.

Do the Swiss Plaisir guides come in for the same criticism as Rockfax?

In reply to remus:




I think my point is more that this thread seems to be more about some sort of perceived personal slight than the actual issue.

In reply to Doug:


I am sure he is! I was just a bit surprised but on reflection it makes sense.

In reply to Doug:


The only criticism that I've personally heard against them came from another guidebook writer! That isn't to say that there isn't more, of course. Also because Jurg von Kanel was Swiss, maybe they seemed more acceptable (even though he did rather push the boundaries of Switzerland!) I met him a couple of times and found him delightful. Very sad that he chose to end his life.

In reply to jon:

Did not know about that sad fact.

Met him once at a trade show. Delightful to talk to, a genuine enthusiast.

It was really good to be able to thank him in person for all the great Swiss rock routes and experiences that would have been missed without his guides.

To get back to the main subject, guides like Swiss Extrem/Plaisir and Rockfax with their international appeal and distribution are fully justified in their existence.
To his credit, Alan and Rockfax do give information on locally produced guides and some funding if possible to local bolt funds/bolters.

However, sustainable bolting programs will only be possible if Everybody contributes.
This includes all commercial organisations benefiting and individual climbers.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Yes but it's far easier to fulminate against RF on UKC than to dig into your own pocket... Which I've done the one time someone happened to be collecting for the bolt fund at a crag which I had been to a few times. Perhaps if the bolting activists did a bit more 'active collection' at crags when they're there anyway, they would get a reasonable amount over time.

In reply to MG:


Well I remember a conversation with Graham Frost when the Dent de Tsalion got bolted. As I remember it was the guides from the Arolla valley who did it and obviously them that funded it.

For the Dent d'Herens, no idea. It's on the border and I guess the route strays onto the Swiss side, but of course it's normal to start in Italy! I do remember a big stash of big steel stanchions hidden on a ledge just below the summit when I did it that could only really have got there by helicopter. That was last century, of course. Is there a via ferrata up there now?

Bit of a hijack there, sorry. As you were.

In reply to Misha:


One way of getting some money, but

Not everybody will get to contribute, only those " caught " by the bolters , who TBH have done enough already without spending time on collection.
Will they have a badge to prove its not a scam? Far better for the dosh to go to a properly constituted bolt fund.

In reply to jon:

The stash of stanchions is still there! They were replacing the chains on the Tiefmattenjoch.

In reply to MG:


You're kidding - it was 1999!

In reply to jon:

No - hanging on a horizontal bar on the summit block?

In reply to Misha:

What about an honesty box attached to the first bolt, or to the top anchors, of every bolted route? That way you could pay each time you pass the box. Or alternatively, bolt hangers with built-in cash box. This could either be embedded into the rock (might require a bigger drill bit), or could sit to the side of the hanger and as a bonus provide a useful foothold for anyone "french-freeing" the route. You would then pay-as-you-clip.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:



But there are often threads pointingh out bargains at different retailers?

£20.37 for the Cham rockfax at WHSmith seems like no different to those

In reply to JJL:

Well there shouldn't be.


Well I wouldn't order from them since they have the wrong RRP so they will probably cancel the pre-orders anyway. At that price they will be losing money after delivery and handling.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:



Of course it´ s not, it´ s all about "my baby" and control/"I made it and I say what goes on" syndrome.
When we developed San Vito we deliberately looked for an outside guide publisher who could do a professional job, promote the area properly and provide regular updates to a developing area, anything else would fail to do justice to the area (and our efforts). And that is from three people all who have published guides previously.

In reply to Chris Craggs:





I work on a ballpark of €7.00 per bolt plus a lower-off for reasonably long routes of 10 bolts or more for local unpaid installation to cover wear and tear, equipment etc so about €100 per route and €15.00 per bolt for paid work plus accomodation/travel.
A 1000 route area is in the €100,000 range to equip.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Let me be 100% clear - I have no personal vendetta against Alan (the last time I got stuck into a Rockfax debate was in 2010) neither do I want to see him stacking shelves at his local supermarket. I wish him every success with Rockfax, and hope he can find a way to produce guidebooks in the future while respecting the local climbing communities in the areas in which he operates. By this I only mean 2 things:

1) In areas where crag maintenance is funded through topo sales, he ensures that his customers contribute on a par with those buying the local guidebook.
2) He avoids areas with serious access issues.

I don't think this is either unreasonable or unattainable, although it may require a shift in the manner in which Rockfax interacts with local communities. Unfortunately reading his latest posts this doesn't seem to be his own personal priority (see my post Thurs 21.38)

However there is a glimmer of hope. In the area where I have lived for the past 25 years (Haute-Savoie, France) Rockfax are apparently planning to bring out a guidebook app in collaboration with Gilles Brunot, who is a main player in the local bolting association and author of 2 guidebooks (see his post in the other Rockfax thread).

This is going to create an interesting dynamic because Gilles, who has done a huge amount of voluntary work for this non-profit bolting association over the past couple of decades, is being invited to join a commercial venture. Now if anybody deserves to make money from crag maintenance here it is Gilles, and I wish everyone involved all the best in this project. However it could create a fundamental change in the way in which crag maintenance is funded if it affects guidebook sales. The present scheme functions very well allowing the association to invest €5000 per year in equipment, but it does rely very heavily on unpaid work.

So as crag users and guidebook customers, should we approach this project in a 'mature manner' as Daimon suggests and just blindly trust everyone involved, or should we keep ourselves informed as to how the money is being used? Certainly the 3 reasons Alan has cited for his current lack of transparency  (liability, politics and poor feedback) have never been a problem here and I hope that doesn't change. Bolting associations in France have a legal obligation for transparency and with the involvement of Gilles there will be a strong element of local input. I think this will in turn go on to ensure that the project will be subject to local oversight, which is very good news for climbing.

I hope that Rockfax will find a way of making this work in a way which benefits the community as well as being profitable. I'd quite happily see bolting in this area funded in ways other than uniquely through topo sales if the local consensus agrees, and am certainly willing to contribute more than I do at the moment (that said I'm particularly enamoured by Rick's idea of a penny a clip as I'd have paid less than 50p so far this year!)

In reply to nb:



Sounds like we both need to get out more. If it was a penny a deadhang/campus board rung, I'd be overdrawn - and yes, sad... I know.

Mick

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

As JJL has pointed out, the UKC policy is frankly a bit of a mess in this area.

To quote from http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/guidelines.html under Promotion, Research, Surveys, Advertising, Other Websites and Blogs :
7. Third party commercial web sites- Because of abuse of the forums by people in the past, we don't allow starter posts and thread titles linking to third party commercial sites even if you have absolutely no connection with the site in question. If you wish to alert UKClimbing.com users of a potentially good deal then please recommend to the site you are linking to that they consider advertising on UKClimbing.com.

First, starter posts linking to third party commercial sites, despite supposedly being explicitly banned are extremely common:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=647658 (GO Outdoors)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=647738 (Needlesport)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=647439 (Needlesport)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=647169 (RockandRun)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=647000 (Campingandcaravandirect)

Second, the wording of the second half para 7 is unclear. Is recommending a company product completely banned or not? Is it only possible if the company is a UKC advertiser?

If there is a general ban, then surely all threads specifically asking about potential deals (as below) should be removed?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=648302 (1/2 ropes)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=648302 (ropes)

Finally, we have threads discussing specific third party commercial websites, such as:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=648745 on www.bergfreunde.co.uk
How do they fit into the rules?

Even the BBC has almost given up its laughable policy of actively not endorsing anything and following any mention of a product with a panicked caveat of "other brands are available".

I know UKC has advertisers to keep happy but I doubt overt protectionism and more active censorship of discussions about product pricing will go down well with most UKC forum users. Equally the current situation with unclear rules and selective enforcement is not ideal either.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

Thanks for that detailed analysis. I don't think there is anything wrong with the policy, it is the implementation that is a little inconsistent. I fear that you may find other examples if you analyse all our policies in this way. We are only a few people, checking the forums is only a sideline activity and we don't read every post hence things do get missed. That is why we appreciate the Forum Abuse reports which are a huge help to us.

Alan