UKC

Good afternoon UKC,

At one of our local crags, we have a mini-controversy brewing over the installation of fixed, permanent, stainless steel draws on several of the climbs. These Perma Draws were installed by a well-meaning individual after consulting few people. Some of the draws have been removed by other people. Arguments have ensued.

- Some people are thrilled with these (lower hassle, easy of working a route, easier for multiple parties to share a route)
- Some people are not thrilled with these (increased wear on the route, unclear as to who maintains the draws, potential for safety issues on worn draws)

So I turn to the UKC forums for opinions, abuse, ridicule, thoughts, debate and/or sage counsel. I'm suspicious I'll get lots of the former, and very little of the last, but I thought I'd try nonetheless.

- Has this been an issue in the UK?
- How was it resolved, if at all?
- If Perma Draws were installed, who maintains them?
- What happens with Draws which are left on a project? Do they get nicked?
- What are your thoughts on Perma Draws? I will withhold my personal view initially so as to not shape any discussion.

Many thanks to anyone who takes the time to consider and respond.

Best regards,

K

In reply to shouldbebetter:


Can you explain more on that please? I don't understand that bit.

In reply to shouldbebetter:
There are people around who are much better informed than me, but I believe that permadraws are effectively (informally) banned on many of the good sport climbing crags in the UK because of the potential access implications caused by their unsightliness to the general public and/or concerns over their maintenance. Even just leaving your own draws in overnight is severely frowned upon for the first reason above, it is good etiquette to strip the route fully every day.

In reply to SenzuBean:

Sure. By fixing draws on a climb, it becomes more approachable by people wanting to try something which may be above their limit. Traffic on the route will inevitably increase, and the rock gets polished faster.

There is a popular 8b out here, which is getting polished very quickly due to Perma Draws being there. The result of the Perma Draws is that 7c climbers feel comfortable jumping on and trying the line. Often, as they are not strong enough for the moves, they are quick sloppy with the footwork, exacerbating the issue and polishing the route even faster. The damage to the route is noticeable.

In reply to SenzuBean:

People setting off to dog something to death well beyond their ability without the hassle of retrieving their own kit when they inevitably fail, so polishing up the start and the first crux section that halts them.

In reply to ultrabumbly:


True, but I think they have just as much right to do this as anyone else.

That said, I'd prefer to place my own draws, that's part of the excitement of an on-sight!

In reply to shouldbebetter:

I too don't have the climbing pedigree to preach, but as a longish term climber and someone who enjoys the outdoors and a member of the society we all live in, here is my thoughts.

I think it is bad form to leave draws in for a length of time, I can see a reasonable case for the occasional overnight leaving of gear, but think it should be discouraged if possible.

If people can not put draws in by dogging or clipsticking etc a fully bolted sport route which they seriously intend to climb cleanly, then something isnt right. I dare say the draws mentioned by the OP are on a severely overhanging crag which makes it tough, but I'm not convinced this is enough reason for perma draws to be fully acceptable.

There will no doubt be a permanent gear (treads) on trad routes argument here too. Same with chalked holds, and I think they will also have some validity.

Where to draw a fuzzy grey line is always going to be tough to define. Good luck!

In reply to springfall2008:

Springfall, of course they have a right to get on any route they want. No-one said any differently.

It's that having permanent draws equipped lowers the barrier to entry - making it easier for people to get on routes over their head. At least when the draws are not pre-hung, you have to make a choice on "if I get on this, can I get my gear back off".

When the draws are hung, you can get on a route, and punt about with no hassle, increasing both traffic and wear.

In reply to springfall2008:


It's not about having the Right to do it, that's the new consumerist rock climbing ethic speaking, like everyone has the right to order a McDonald's Value Meal, it's about having an environmental responsibility.

In reply to shouldbebetter:



The best climbers dog the shit out of routes. Days, weeks, months, on the same project. 7c climber tries a 8b climb? Could not care less.

However, don't agree with perma draws in most cases for reasons already stated.

In reply to shouldbebetter:
If there isn't going to be an access issue, permadraws on steep routes mean less hassle and that's a good thing. If someone is concerned about the draws getting old and worn, they can replace them (I'm doing that at some of the dry tooling crags here where all the hard routes have permadraws). If there are particular routes which will get overly polished due to permadraws, I can see the argument against having them. It's just common sense really.

In reply to shouldbebetter:

http://eveningsends.com/perma-problem/

http://eveningsends.com/blue-steel-permadraw-solution/

That said permadraws should only be used on properly overhanging terrain, where cleaning/strippin' the draws would be a real hassle.

In reply to shouldbebetter:

I feel sad when I see or touch polished rock. But it'll happen sooner or later unfortunately, I think.
I'd vote for place your own draws though. Even if you have to carry 30.

In reply to shouldbebetter:


Yes


In the case of Raven Tor the permadraws were removed by local climbers after debate on UKB - see thread here: http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,18154.msg324450.html#msg32445...


Good question. The onus being on the installers to make assurances


Not usually


They are an eyesore and there are safety issues (some of which are not obvious) which overide the convenience advantages.

I would add that my opinion changed from mildly pro to strongly anti in the course of the debate on the above linked thread

In reply to shouldbebetter:

Convenient, if you want to get on a route which has them - otherwise a bit of an eyesore, and potentially a dangerous one.

http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/point-break-fight-over-fixed-draws

In reply to Misha:

Putting your own quickdraws in a sport climb isn't exactly 'hassle' though is it?!

In reply to Bulls Crack:

but getting them out again definitely can be if it's steep

In reply to shouldbebetter:


I think it's best if they're not used, I'd feel better putting my own in. Less of an eyesore and less of a safety concern. But there are always exceptional cases, for example there's a single perma-draw in Yosemite Wall at Malham, on a hard to reach bolt.

In reply to hms:

All part of the game