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Just went to try The Flakes Direct (E2 5c) yesterday to find there was a block missing at the start (3m). Looks pretty recent, anyone know much about it? Is there going to be anything done? It's the start of a handful of classic lines which all break out different directions after this initial section.
There is a stuck wire at 2m where i'm assuming someone has fallen and dislodged the block. Me and my friend both had a go tackling the new scarred section, but it felt pretty nails.
Just going to be left and waited to be reclimbed at a higher grade for 3m then pretty steady ground for the rest of the routes, glue some of the block back on to make it climbable at the previous grade, or something else...
There is a stuck wire at 2m where i'm assuming someone has fallen and dislodged the block. Me and my friend both had a go tackling the new scarred section, but it felt pretty nails.
Just going to be left and waited to be reclimbed at a higher grade for 3m then pretty steady ground for the rest of the routes, glue some of the block back on to make it climbable at the previous grade, or something else...
In reply to CharlieMack:
I haven't looked recently but there was always a section where it looks like a rock had come out.theres also been a nut stuck there too ( for the last few years anyway).
I haven't looked recently but there was always a section where it looks like a rock had come out.theres also been a nut stuck there too ( for the last few years anyway).
In reply to deacondeacon:
As deacondeacon says, there's a block's been gone for a while and the stuck wire's been there for years too. How fresh did the scar look? If it's the last month (and so really dusty/obvious/blocks scattered around underneath) it might be new, otherwise it's the old one and I think the routes are graded for it (ie Windhover, which used to be HVS, is now a soft E2). The starting moves are definitely the crux for both Windhover and Armaggedon, (and the Flakes? not done it), but the crux on Flakes Direct is still moving through the overlap (if only cos it's harder to climb up and down to rest than it is at the start).
Last year a peg which you clipped just after the starting crux (a couple of feet above the stuck wire) came out. This makes the start marginally bolder but I don't think has changed the grade.
All this is not to say those starting moves aren't really hard!
As deacondeacon says, there's a block's been gone for a while and the stuck wire's been there for years too. How fresh did the scar look? If it's the last month (and so really dusty/obvious/blocks scattered around underneath) it might be new, otherwise it's the old one and I think the routes are graded for it (ie Windhover, which used to be HVS, is now a soft E2). The starting moves are definitely the crux for both Windhover and Armaggedon, (and the Flakes? not done it), but the crux on Flakes Direct is still moving through the overlap (if only cos it's harder to climb up and down to rest than it is at the start).
Last year a peg which you clipped just after the starting crux (a couple of feet above the stuck wire) came out. This makes the start marginally bolder but I don't think has changed the grade.
All this is not to say those starting moves aren't really hard!
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In reply to tebs:
The blocks on the floor looked a few weeks old. Pretty dusty still. Me and a friend both tried it for about 10 mins each and couldn't get anywhere (both E3-4 onsighters). Then just walked up Scoop wall round the corner (defo E2 for what it's worth :p ).
Seemed like quite a bit of chalk around but non higher up so looks like others have had similar difficulties.
The blocks on the floor looked a few weeks old. Pretty dusty still. Me and a friend both tried it for about 10 mins each and couldn't get anywhere (both E3-4 onsighters). Then just walked up Scoop wall round the corner (defo E2 for what it's worth :p ).
Seemed like quite a bit of chalk around but non higher up so looks like others have had similar difficulties.
In reply to CharlieMack:
The stuck nut I'm pretty sure is from my mate who took a decent lob off the start, summer 2014 (didn't pull any rock off). There's a perfect backup nut above it though for when its safety is in doubt.
I've climbed all the routes which start there (most recently Armageddon, June of this year), and can confirm the start is a proper bastard every time. It would be a shame if it's become even harder. I'll have a look next time I'm up.
Like Tebs, I reckon the crux of Flakes Direct is on the second pitch.
The stuck nut I'm pretty sure is from my mate who took a decent lob off the start, summer 2014 (didn't pull any rock off). There's a perfect backup nut above it though for when its safety is in doubt.
I've climbed all the routes which start there (most recently Armageddon, June of this year), and can confirm the start is a proper bastard every time. It would be a shame if it's become even harder. I'll have a look next time I'm up.
Like Tebs, I reckon the crux of Flakes Direct is on the second pitch.
Post edited at 11:25
In reply to ChrisBrooke:
said friend was me. I have done all these routes quite a few times, the start has defo got harder, i last did them in 2013. Not the move that used to be considered tough but wasn't too bad (left to the peg low down i seem to recall, the pegs gone now), but before that getting to the big blocky undercuts. But we are real shorties so it might be just something has fallen off that isn't noticeable to normal sized people .
said friend was me. I have done all these routes quite a few times, the start has defo got harder, i last did them in 2013. Not the move that used to be considered tough but wasn't too bad (left to the peg low down i seem to recall, the pegs gone now), but before that getting to the big blocky undercuts. But we are real shorties so it might be just something has fallen off that isn't noticeable to normal sized people .
In reply to snoop6060:
Me and my mates are both shorties too, but he has done all the routes there before and couldnt get more than 1m off the floor. Would be interesting to find out if we're both just being total punters, or if something has actually changed.
Me and my mates are both shorties too, but he has done all the routes there before and couldnt get more than 1m off the floor. Would be interesting to find out if we're both just being total punters, or if something has actually changed.
In reply to CharlieMack:
I'm actually climbing at Stoney tonight so I'll have a butchers.
The start is a real pig but there is a sequence that makes it fine, which involves a hidden crimp, and a cross through to a good pocket. The chances of using that sequence when Onsighting would be very slim
Scoop Wall= definitive E2.3
I'm actually climbing at Stoney tonight so I'll have a butchers.
The start is a real pig but there is a sequence that makes it fine, which involves a hidden crimp, and a cross through to a good pocket. The chances of using that sequence when Onsighting would be very slim
Scoop Wall= definitive E2.3
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In reply to snoop6060:
Lol. Well, I'm quite tall.... For me the move is committing to a weird side-pully-undercling on the chalky block, on poor feet, to get the weight over to the left, then a stiff pull up past where there was a peg to mantle onto the ledge and a nice rest.
Lol. Well, I'm quite tall.... For me the move is committing to a weird side-pully-undercling on the chalky block, on poor feet, to get the weight over to the left, then a stiff pull up past where there was a peg to mantle onto the ledge and a nice rest.
In reply to deacondeacon:
No logged ascents on UKC Logbook since mid-July for the routes which use the start. One failed attempt on August 13.
Could be worth a look.
Alan
> I'm actually climbing at Stoney tonight so I'll have a butchers.
No logged ascents on UKC Logbook since mid-July for the routes which use the start. One failed attempt on August 13.
Could be worth a look.
Alan
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In reply to deacondeacon:
Will be good to know. Those routes off Windy Ledge are some of my favourites, especially Armageddon.
> I'm actually climbing at Stoney tonight so I'll have a butchers.
Will be good to know. Those routes off Windy Ledge are some of my favourites, especially Armageddon.
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
I'd like to think we were both just having a bad day, as I'd like to do all those routes.
First time i've ever wanted to be a punter...
I'd like to think we were both just having a bad day, as I'd like to do all those routes.
First time i've ever wanted to be a punter...
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In reply to CharlieMack:
Sorry, I'd ididnt get a chance to look this evening. Climbing in electric quarry and didn't leave until it was pitch black.
Sorry, I'd ididnt get a chance to look this evening. Climbing in electric quarry and didn't leave until it was pitch black.
In reply to deacondeacon:
I tried it a few weeks ago and couldnt touch it, I was onsighting 7a and E3/4 at the time
So I handed over to my friend who was onsighting 7b and E4/5
Couldn't touch it either...
Both did Kelly's Eye (E4 6a) on the same day which is much easier
I tried it a few weeks ago and couldnt touch it, I was onsighting 7a and E3/4 at the time
So I handed over to my friend who was onsighting 7b and E4/5
Couldn't touch it either...
Both did Kelly's Eye (E4 6a) on the same day which is much easier
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In reply to CharlieMack:
Yes, I know. I'm your friend you Muppet. It's Simon of recent cannot repeat flakes direct fame.
Which has defo got harder since 2013, clawed my way up a few 7bs onsight recently so surely I can repeat a move on a e2 I've done about 5 times without fail.
> Me and my mates are both shorties too....
Yes, I know. I'm your friend you Muppet. It's Simon of recent cannot repeat flakes direct fame.
Which has defo got harder since 2013, clawed my way up a few 7bs onsight recently so surely I can repeat a move on a e2 I've done about 5 times without fail.
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In reply to snoop6060:
If it's really become so hard it's time to clean the rest of the loose rock off and perhaps place a solid bolt in the start for use as either a runner or an aid point so people can get on the fantastic climbing beyond.
Otherwise will be another relic gathering cobwebs.
Cheers
Simon Cundy.
If it's really become so hard it's time to clean the rest of the loose rock off and perhaps place a solid bolt in the start for use as either a runner or an aid point so people can get on the fantastic climbing beyond.
Otherwise will be another relic gathering cobwebs.
Cheers
Simon Cundy.
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In reply to Stoney Boy:
F*ck it. Let's just chip a jug.
> If it's really become so hard it's time to clean the rest of the loose rock off and perhaps place a solid bolt in the start for use as either a runner or an aid point so people can get on the fantastic climbing beyond.
> Otherwise will be another relic gathering cobwebs.
> Cheers
> Simon Cundy.
F*ck it. Let's just chip a jug.
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In reply to Stoney Boy:
It's about 7' off the ground. You could just get a bunk up off your belayer.
It's about 7' off the ground. You could just get a bunk up off your belayer.
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In reply to CharlieMack:
That start has always been hard, that's what the old timers will tell you. In practice, I suspect it's been getting harder as more bits have dropped off. Did it a couple of years back and thought it was 6a. May be it's even harder now.
That start has always been hard, that's what the old timers will tell you. In practice, I suspect it's been getting harder as more bits have dropped off. Did it a couple of years back and thought it was 6a. May be it's even harder now.
There is a ready made solution in UK climbing to the issue of climbs which have become more serious and technically harder.....
In reply to CharlieMack:
Loose rock is de-rigeur at Stoney isn't it? (or have I been climbing on the wrong bits)
Loose rock is de-rigeur at Stoney isn't it? (or have I been climbing on the wrong bits)
Post edited at 19:55
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In reply to snoop6060:
Haha, thought I recognised the user name :p
As per original post, think once there's been some consensus something should be done.
If it turned out the three classic E2s are now 6a/b start followed by 5b for the rest, they might fall into obscurity. Which would be a great shame.
Haha, thought I recognised the user name :p
As per original post, think once there's been some consensus something should be done.
If it turned out the three classic E2s are now 6a/b start followed by 5b for the rest, they might fall into obscurity. Which would be a great shame.
In reply to CharlieMack: Do the start of Choss and then traverse round the arête - only 5b
How to make a 3 star route into a 2 or 1 star experience
How to make a 3 star route into a 2 or 1 star experience
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In reply to Michael Hood:
or approach via Alcasan....... might be quicker to just bring a little set of steps to get past the first move though.
or approach via Alcasan....... might be quicker to just bring a little set of steps to get past the first move though.
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In reply to ChrisBrooke: Maybe it should end up similar to Carnage at Malham - consistent grade if done with a point of aid but freeable if you're good enough (certainly not me) and want to do that.
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In reply to Michael Hood:
From memory of the move I don't think the nut is that useful to aid through the move on - too low down - and there's nothing until past the crux. Maybe there's a new gear possibility with the missing bit though....? Step ladder/mate's shoulders might be the best bet Dying to go have a look now!
From memory of the move I don't think the nut is that useful to aid through the move on - too low down - and there's nothing until past the crux. Maybe there's a new gear possibility with the missing bit though....? Step ladder/mate's shoulders might be the best bet Dying to go have a look now!
In reply to ChrisBrooke:
Clip the in situ wire with a sling. Foot in the sling and off you go. That's what I've done a couple of times.
Clip the in situ wire with a sling. Foot in the sling and off you go. That's what I've done a couple of times.
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In reply to CharlieMack:
Climbed this today, it's the same as its been for the last few years, but the crucial block is fairly precarious and it's only a matter of time before it comes off. It's a boulder problem start, about English 5c/6a but tricky to on sight, I actually managed it clean today!
It would be useful if someone who knows what they are doing could go and cement the block in place to secure the start of 4 very good E2's.
Climbed this today, it's the same as its been for the last few years, but the crucial block is fairly precarious and it's only a matter of time before it comes off. It's a boulder problem start, about English 5c/6a but tricky to on sight, I actually managed it clean today!
It would be useful if someone who knows what they are doing could go and cement the block in place to secure the start of 4 very good E2's.
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In reply to Martin Haworth:
Why not let nature take its course and adjust the grade as appropriate? Or we could just tile all of Millstone to restore that crag to something approaching its original depth...
> It would be useful if someone who knows what they are doing could go and cement the block in place to secure the start of 4 very good E2's.
Why not let nature take its course and adjust the grade as appropriate? Or we could just tile all of Millstone to restore that crag to something approaching its original depth...
Post edited at 20:54
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In reply to Martin Haworth:
Sorry I forgot to come back and post on the thread. I also had a look last week and agree with you, the moves are the same as they've always been (although I think solid English 6a is fair).
There was some broken rock on the floor but it looked like it had come off from just right of the route, possibly from someone going off route. There's always chalk all over that section of wall where people have tried different sequences.
Sorry I forgot to come back and post on the thread. I also had a look last week and agree with you, the moves are the same as they've always been (although I think solid English 6a is fair).
There was some broken rock on the floor but it looked like it had come off from just right of the route, possibly from someone going off route. There's always chalk all over that section of wall where people have tried different sequences.
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In reply to Shani:
Where gritstone has a history of allowing routes to change over time limestone has a tradition of preserving an repairing routes and holds.
Broken holds are often sika'd back into place, and they're often invisible repairs which would be much more unsightly on grit.
> Or we could just tile all of Millstone to restore that crag to something approaching its original depth...
Where gritstone has a history of allowing routes to change over time limestone has a tradition of preserving an repairing routes and holds.
Broken holds are often sika'd back into place, and they're often invisible repairs which would be much more unsightly on grit.
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In reply to deacondeacon:
Yes, it's the gluing of holds on to rock i disagree with. I don't think climbers have any right to be gluing the countryside for reasons of vanity.
> Broken holds are often sika'd back into place, and they're often invisible repairs which would be much more unsightly on grit.
Yes, it's the gluing of holds on to rock i disagree with. I don't think climbers have any right to be gluing the countryside for reasons of vanity.
Post edited at 21:17
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In reply to Shani:
Can I ask why? How do you feel about pegs in limestone? Or chalk for that matter?
(I didn't dislike your post by the way. Genuinely interested.
Can I ask why? How do you feel about pegs in limestone? Or chalk for that matter?
(I didn't dislike your post by the way. Genuinely interested.
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In reply to Shani:
I do understand your point of view, I'm not usually in favour of intervening, but in the great scheme of things what I'm suggesting is fairly minimal. Intervening to keep one block in place to preserve the start of 4 classic E2's seems to me a very positive step.
I do understand your point of view, I'm not usually in favour of intervening, but in the great scheme of things what I'm suggesting is fairly minimal. Intervening to keep one block in place to preserve the start of 4 classic E2's seems to me a very positive step.
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In reply to deacondeacon:
I don't mind chalk and favour trad. I genuinely think we should top rope rather than bolt stuff (perhaps allowing bolts where necessary to facilitate the flow of the rope).
I think a lot of danger in climbing is contrived and the rock is damaged to facilitate that by bolting for example. As for gluing holds, it is a vanity. We're bringing an adhesive out in to nature to maintain this thing we call a route. The route is reified by naming it, but only exists for climbers. Why can't we handle the passage of time and the consequence of erosion? Let it go already - that's life. Gluing rocks out in the countryside seems an appalling thing to do from an environmental perspective.
> Can I ask why? How do you feel about pegs in limestone? Or chalk for that matter?
> (I didn't dislike your post by the way. Genuinely interested.
I don't mind chalk and favour trad. I genuinely think we should top rope rather than bolt stuff (perhaps allowing bolts where necessary to facilitate the flow of the rope).
I think a lot of danger in climbing is contrived and the rock is damaged to facilitate that by bolting for example. As for gluing holds, it is a vanity. We're bringing an adhesive out in to nature to maintain this thing we call a route. The route is reified by naming it, but only exists for climbers. Why can't we handle the passage of time and the consequence of erosion? Let it go already - that's life. Gluing rocks out in the countryside seems an appalling thing to do from an environmental perspective.
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In reply to Shani:
>Gluing rocks out in the countryside seems an appalling thing to do from an environmental perspective.
Appalling, really? Probably less environmentally damaging than dropping a cig butt
>Gluing rocks out in the countryside seems an appalling thing to do from an environmental perspective.
Appalling, really? Probably less environmentally damaging than dropping a cig butt
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In reply to Martin Haworth:
Why can't we let routes get harder & bolder? It'd reduce polishing and make their 3-stars last longer.
> I do understand your point of view, I'm not usually in favour of intervening, but in the great scheme of things what I'm suggesting is fairly minimal. Intervening to keep one block in place to preserve the start of 4 classic E2's seems to me a very positive step.
Why can't we let routes get harder & bolder? It'd reduce polishing and make their 3-stars last longer.
Post edited at 22:10
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In reply to Shani:
We're bringing an adhesive out in to nature to maintain this thing we call a route. The route is reified by naming it, but only exists for climbers. Why can't we handle the passage of time and the consequence of erosion? Let it go already - that's life. Gluing rocks out in the countryside seems an appalling thing to do from an environmental perspective.
Surely from an environmental point of view it would be an act of preservation. Preventing inevitable damage, and a potential eyesore. Also I'd expect chalk to be much worse environmentally than sika. It stops lichen growing and is visually much more intrusive.
Climbing is damaging to the environment wether we like it or not. Repairing a wobbly hold is nothing compared to the impact your having with rock erosion/path erosion/ the supplying of climbing gear/ travelling to and from the crag/even the sandwiches that we're eating.
> I don't mind chalk and favour trad. I genuinely think we should top rope rather than bolt stuff (perhaps allowing bolts where necessary to facilitate the flow of the rope).
Aren't bolts always 'to facilitate the flow of the rope'?> I think a lot of danger in climbing is contrived and the rock is damaged to facilitate that by bolting for example. As for gluing holds, it is a vanity.
I'm not sure what you mean by a vanity. Do you mean that we only bolt routes for our own self promotion/importance, or more in the biblical sense that it's a meaningless/futile endeavour.We're bringing an adhesive out in to nature to maintain this thing we call a route. The route is reified by naming it, but only exists for climbers. Why can't we handle the passage of time and the consequence of erosion? Let it go already - that's life. Gluing rocks out in the countryside seems an appalling thing to do from an environmental perspective.
Surely from an environmental point of view it would be an act of preservation. Preventing inevitable damage, and a potential eyesore. Also I'd expect chalk to be much worse environmentally than sika. It stops lichen growing and is visually much more intrusive.
Climbing is damaging to the environment wether we like it or not. Repairing a wobbly hold is nothing compared to the impact your having with rock erosion/path erosion/ the supplying of climbing gear/ travelling to and from the crag/even the sandwiches that we're eating.
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In reply to CharlieMack: To get back to the issue, who is best qualified to glue the block in place ...BMC local rep. maybe? Or perhaps Gary Gibson, he knows what he's doing with sika, if I donate to his bolt fund he might secure the block.
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In reply to Shani:
If the start of these routes became English 6b they'd no longer be three star routes. They're already unbalanced (windhover is a 6a move followed by VS climbing to the top).
They could keep their status as a great set of E2s and all they'd need is an invisible repair. This is on a piece of rock that is covered in pegs already. There was a peg until recently only four foot above this loose block and Windhover must have 5 or 6 pegs in it already.
I'm personally not a fan of pegs either and if a peg comes out and it doesn't massively alter a route (say no more than one adjectival grade difference) then leave it out.
If the start of these routes became English 6b they'd no longer be three star routes. They're already unbalanced (windhover is a 6a move followed by VS climbing to the top).
They could keep their status as a great set of E2s and all they'd need is an invisible repair. This is on a piece of rock that is covered in pegs already. There was a peg until recently only four foot above this loose block and Windhover must have 5 or 6 pegs in it already.
I'm personally not a fan of pegs either and if a peg comes out and it doesn't massively alter a route (say no more than one adjectival grade difference) then leave it out.
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In reply to deacondeacon:
Again, why not let routes get harder? Who determines 'balance' of a route? The loss of three star status wouldn't detract from the wild fun and exposure of the upper sections, and it would reduce traffic/polishing.
Again, why not let routes get harder? Who determines 'balance' of a route? The loss of three star status wouldn't detract from the wild fun and exposure of the upper sections, and it would reduce traffic/polishing.
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In reply to CharlieMack:
Noticed this a couple of weeks ago, as others have said it looks like the fallen block was to the right of the problem start.
As for gluing, like it or not nearby crags like Raven tor and Rubicon are peppered with sika-reinforced holds. I'd prefer to wait until a) the block actually falls off, and b) we are sure it will actually make it harder. You never know, it might add a hold or two.
Noticed this a couple of weeks ago, as others have said it looks like the fallen block was to the right of the problem start.
As for gluing, like it or not nearby crags like Raven tor and Rubicon are peppered with sika-reinforced holds. I'd prefer to wait until a) the block actually falls off, and b) we are sure it will actually make it harder. You never know, it might add a hold or two.
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In reply to Adam Long:
Adam
The block is in a very precarious state, and when it comes off it will definitely make the move harder.
Adam
The block is in a very precarious state, and when it comes off it will definitely make the move harder.
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In reply to Martin Haworth:
... and someone's head softer.
> The block is in a very precarious state, and when it comes off it will definitely make the move harder.
... and someone's head softer.
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In reply to deacondeacon:
They used to be VS The block falls at the start were tough for VS leaders 6a/b is just another evolution Hard luck if you can't lead at the new grade Go elsewhere try other routes
They used to be VS The block falls at the start were tough for VS leaders 6a/b is just another evolution Hard luck if you can't lead at the new grade Go elsewhere try other routes
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In reply to rocksol:
A valid point of view, but in this particular case I disagree. This is the start to 4 excellent E2's, if the start gets any harder then I feel the routes might fall into disuse as they will be routes that are sustained 5a to 5c climbing with a 6b start. The peg that protected the moves as you leave the blocks has already recently departed.
A valid point of view, but in this particular case I disagree. This is the start to 4 excellent E2's, if the start gets any harder then I feel the routes might fall into disuse as they will be routes that are sustained 5a to 5c climbing with a 6b start. The peg that protected the moves as you leave the blocks has already recently departed.
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In reply to Shani:
It all depends on the route.
Eroica (E4 6a) got harder and bolder when the crucial peg rotted. The peg was used for aid and was as much part of the route as the holds on the start of Windhover etc (which has also lost a pretty crucial peg). Here the consensus was to let the route get harder from E1 (although I can't see how it was ever E1 but anyway) to E4, with an unbalanced 6a crux. In this case, I completely agree, it's a fantastic E4 and it still gets done (because the other routes at the crag are E5 and up).
These routes have a different set of factors at play. Lots of people go to Stoney to climb E2s, and these are the best ones (except for the overrated Scoop Wall), and they're all afflicted by the awful crux start, which has now got even worse. And worse in a bad way - this is 10ft off the deck with a single wire and your belayer's head protecting you from Windy Ledge. This makes for a really shit route if you have to be climbing E5 to get up it and then the rest of the route is HVS (Windhover) E1 (Armageddon) or E2 (Flakes Direct).
Any arguments about damaging the rock are outright bullshit. Limestone isn't precious, holds are falling off all the time, chalk, polish, erosion, etc, all "damage" the crag. We care about chipping and bolting routes because it changes the route, it alters what is entailed in climbing it. Why would damaging the rock at Stoney matter, when over the road it's being quarried?
And the routes at Stoney don't want less traffic to avoid becoming polished! Have you ever climbed there!?
My suggestion for these routes would be to bang some shiny new pegs in to replace the one that's gone and provide a point of aid if you can't do the start. Bolts serving the exact same function would, of course, cause an outcry...
Edited: it's 10ft not 10m up!
> Why can't we let routes get harder & bolder? It'd reduce polishing and make their 3-stars last longer.
It all depends on the route.
Eroica (E4 6a) got harder and bolder when the crucial peg rotted. The peg was used for aid and was as much part of the route as the holds on the start of Windhover etc (which has also lost a pretty crucial peg). Here the consensus was to let the route get harder from E1 (although I can't see how it was ever E1 but anyway) to E4, with an unbalanced 6a crux. In this case, I completely agree, it's a fantastic E4 and it still gets done (because the other routes at the crag are E5 and up).
These routes have a different set of factors at play. Lots of people go to Stoney to climb E2s, and these are the best ones (except for the overrated Scoop Wall), and they're all afflicted by the awful crux start, which has now got even worse. And worse in a bad way - this is 10ft off the deck with a single wire and your belayer's head protecting you from Windy Ledge. This makes for a really shit route if you have to be climbing E5 to get up it and then the rest of the route is HVS (Windhover) E1 (Armageddon) or E2 (Flakes Direct).
Any arguments about damaging the rock are outright bullshit. Limestone isn't precious, holds are falling off all the time, chalk, polish, erosion, etc, all "damage" the crag. We care about chipping and bolting routes because it changes the route, it alters what is entailed in climbing it. Why would damaging the rock at Stoney matter, when over the road it's being quarried?
And the routes at Stoney don't want less traffic to avoid becoming polished! Have you ever climbed there!?
My suggestion for these routes would be to bang some shiny new pegs in to replace the one that's gone and provide a point of aid if you can't do the start. Bolts serving the exact same function would, of course, cause an outcry...
Edited: it's 10ft not 10m up!
Post edited at 23:02
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
Personally I'm pretty sad about the peg on Eroica. It was an aspirational and achievable route for me at E2, but beyond the pail at bold E4......but let's not rake over old graves....
P.s Nothing overrated about Scoop Wall. It's fantastic, and every bit as good as the sublime Armageddon and tough Flakes Direct.
Personally I'm pretty sad about the peg on Eroica. It was an aspirational and achievable route for me at E2, but beyond the pail at bold E4......but let's not rake over old graves....
P.s Nothing overrated about Scoop Wall. It's fantastic, and every bit as good as the sublime Armageddon and tough Flakes Direct.
Post edited at 23:28
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In reply to ChrisBrooke:
It's not actually bold. I fell off the crux, decent wire at my feet, and cleared the ledge without any deliberate effort. It gets bold after the crux, but it was like that anyway. Definitely 6a though!
> Personally I'm pretty sad about the peg on Eroica. It was an aspirational and achievable route for me at E2, but beyond the pail at bold E4......but let's not rake over old graves....
It's not actually bold. I fell off the crux, decent wire at my feet, and cleared the ledge without any deliberate effort. It gets bold after the crux, but it was like that anyway. Definitely 6a though!
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
Maybe there's hope for me yet, but the logbook comments make me shudder a little.
Maybe there's hope for me yet, but the logbook comments make me shudder a little.
In reply to ChrisBrooke:
I think people want to feel/sound brave and intrepid and things sometimes (but not always)?
> Maybe there's hope for me yet, but the logbook comments make me shudder a little.
I think people want to feel/sound brave and intrepid and things sometimes (but not always)?
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In reply to John Stainforth:
Some people are just mean spirited types I think, in they've decided what they think of him and are now disliking his posts?
> Why on earth are people disliking this comment??
Some people are just mean spirited types I think, in they've decided what they think of him and are now disliking his posts?
Post edited at 21:51
In reply to John Stainforth:
It's curious isn’t it?
> Why on earth are people disliking this comment??
It's curious isn’t it?
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In reply to Shani:
Anyway back to the point. Is the conclusion that this hasn't actually recently got harder? Well since 2013 when I did the routes. Not sure im having that. Unless I used the block that has fell for some weird shortys beta. Quite possible I guess.
Anyway back to the point. Is the conclusion that this hasn't actually recently got harder? Well since 2013 when I did the routes. Not sure im having that. Unless I used the block that has fell for some weird shortys beta. Quite possible I guess.
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In reply to snoop6060:
It is the same as it has been for quite a while. The move is tech 6a but not really obvious and it is reachy so harder if you are short.
It is the same as it has been for quite a while. The move is tech 6a but not really obvious and it is reachy so harder if you are short.
In reply to Martin Haworth:
I'm going to have to try it again now. I know the sequence it used to be, with RH sidepull in the little crack, crimp out left and reach up with the left to a pocket thing where the peg was. I think it sounds a bit dodge without the peg though.
I'm going to have to try it again now. I know the sequence it used to be, with RH sidepull in the little crack, crimp out left and reach up with the left to a pocket thing where the peg was. I think it sounds a bit dodge without the peg though.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
That's my sequence too Jon. The lack of peg defo makes it feel a little spookier though.
There's probably gear if you need it but you're in the sort this f position where it's probably better just to push on, if you know what I mean
That's my sequence too Jon. The lack of peg defo makes it feel a little spookier though.
There's probably gear if you need it but you're in the sort this f position where it's probably better just to push on, if you know what I mean
In reply to Shani:
And what if they become impossible? The hold glued back in Tom's Roof is used by all the problems. If it hadn't been glued back none would be possible. What possible advantage to anyone or anything would there be to not gluing that back?
If the start to Flakes is say possible but 6c then anyone with the ability to climb it is unlikely to have much interest in doing the top part because relatively it will be too easy to be interesting.
Loads and loads of routes are glued together on Peak limestone. I don't see what harm it does to anyone - at the same time it gives climbers a lot of enjoyment.
> Again, why not let routes get harder?
And what if they become impossible? The hold glued back in Tom's Roof is used by all the problems. If it hadn't been glued back none would be possible. What possible advantage to anyone or anything would there be to not gluing that back?
If the start to Flakes is say possible but 6c then anyone with the ability to climb it is unlikely to have much interest in doing the top part because relatively it will be too easy to be interesting.
Loads and loads of routes are glued together on Peak limestone. I don't see what harm it does to anyone - at the same time it gives climbers a lot of enjoyment.
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In reply to stp:
A hard stopper-move is no reason to glue on a hold. Sardine has got harder because of polish - as has bouldering at Water Cum-Jolly. Should we take measures to restore the abrasive nature of the rock in these places?
The loss of a climb or a small area again comes down to the vanity of climbers. What is wrong with leaving such routes to return to nature, or indeed, celebrating the emergence of a new Last Great Problem?
A hard stopper-move is no reason to glue on a hold. Sardine has got harder because of polish - as has bouldering at Water Cum-Jolly. Should we take measures to restore the abrasive nature of the rock in these places?
The loss of a climb or a small area again comes down to the vanity of climbers. What is wrong with leaving such routes to return to nature, or indeed, celebrating the emergence of a new Last Great Problem?
In reply to Shani:
I agree in principle, but your examples could be better chosen - polish or not both already have glued holds.
I agree in principle, but your examples could be better chosen - polish or not both already have glued holds.
Post edited at 11:54
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In reply to Adam Long:
Rock is a finite resource in the UK and there are competing claimants to both the rock and its environs. It's worth all climbers reflecting on how we treat rock and asking whether we give it appropriate respect.
http://images.mcn.bauercdn.com/PageFiles/590221/1752x1168/_GH29577.jpg
> I agree in principle, but your examples could be better chosen - polish or not both already have glued holds.
Rock is a finite resource in the UK and there are competing claimants to both the rock and its environs. It's worth all climbers reflecting on how we treat rock and asking whether we give it appropriate respect.
http://images.mcn.bauercdn.com/PageFiles/590221/1752x1168/_GH29577.jpg
In reply to Shani:
If there was a good way to do it, it might have already been done. There isn't a principle at stake here, why not just take each case on its merits? Should this peg be replaced? Should that dodgy flake be trundled? Should this block be glued back on? Why think in terms of principles about small practical decisions?
I don't understand what you mean by 'vanity'. If we're faced with the choice - shall we say goodbye to these classic routes we like (I nearly said love and then remembered the actual routes) or shall we keep them? - why would we choose to get rid? To avoid vanity? I don't understand the benefit.
As I said before, sometimes when a route gets harder it leaves behind a great route that still gets done, in which case, there's no reason to glue anything back on or replace pegs. Other times, a route will get harder so that it's no longer any good (such as having a nails crux at 10ft on an HVS) and won't get done. Sounds like you'd rather get rid of something great that lots of people like for the sake of not violating some vague and incomprehensible principle about 'vanity' - and I don't think that's a strong case!
But this is all academic as people seem to think it's just the same as it has been for years but without the peg.
> A hard stopper-move is no reason to glue on a hold. Sardine has got harder because of polish - as has bouldering at Water Cum-Jolly. Should we take measures to restore the abrasive nature of the rock in these places?
If there was a good way to do it, it might have already been done. There isn't a principle at stake here, why not just take each case on its merits? Should this peg be replaced? Should that dodgy flake be trundled? Should this block be glued back on? Why think in terms of principles about small practical decisions?
> The loss of a climb or a small area again comes down to the vanity of climbers. What is wrong with leaving such routes to return to nature, or indeed, celebrating the emergence of a new Last Great Problem?
I don't understand what you mean by 'vanity'. If we're faced with the choice - shall we say goodbye to these classic routes we like (I nearly said love and then remembered the actual routes) or shall we keep them? - why would we choose to get rid? To avoid vanity? I don't understand the benefit.
As I said before, sometimes when a route gets harder it leaves behind a great route that still gets done, in which case, there's no reason to glue anything back on or replace pegs. Other times, a route will get harder so that it's no longer any good (such as having a nails crux at 10ft on an HVS) and won't get done. Sounds like you'd rather get rid of something great that lots of people like for the sake of not violating some vague and incomprehensible principle about 'vanity' - and I don't think that's a strong case!
But this is all academic as people seem to think it's just the same as it has been for years but without the peg.
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
That is exactly the vanity I am on about; that once we climb a route, somehow we (climbers) have a claim on it (particularly those we deem 'classic') - that 'our' damage is excusable (we can erode, drill and glue the rock), and have priority over others and their interests.
We do accommodate the interests of others in some areas - bird bans etc.. but the erosion beneath and polish upon 'classics', and intentions to glue them back together when they crumble, makes me question whether we should embrace the drop in traffic and ultimately let nature do her thing.
> I don't understand what you mean by 'vanity'. If we're faced with the choice - shall we say goodbye to these classic routes we like (I nearly said love and then remembered the actual routes) or shall we keep them? - why would we choose to get rid? To avoid vanity? I don't understand the benefit.
That is exactly the vanity I am on about; that once we climb a route, somehow we (climbers) have a claim on it (particularly those we deem 'classic') - that 'our' damage is excusable (we can erode, drill and glue the rock), and have priority over others and their interests.
We do accommodate the interests of others in some areas - bird bans etc.. but the erosion beneath and polish upon 'classics', and intentions to glue them back together when they crumble, makes me question whether we should embrace the drop in traffic and ultimately let nature do her thing.
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In reply to Shani:
Shani, what would you say/do if someone pointed out an 'invisibly' repaired/glued flake that you'd used for the last 25 years without knowing it?
Shani, what would you say/do if someone pointed out an 'invisibly' repaired/glued flake that you'd used for the last 25 years without knowing it?
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In reply to Shani:
If you think climbing per se is in some way immoral, I don't think you'll get much sympathy for your view on here!
Climbing isn't environmentally damaging in a meaningful way. We remove vegetation from the crags and presumably frighten off shy species, but only on bits of rock that are good for climbing. It doesn't matter! The vegetation and wildlife has all the unclimbable choss in the country, we get the nice solid clean faces, and that's the deal. We're not wiping out species or poisoning rivers...
If you think climbing per se is in some way immoral, I don't think you'll get much sympathy for your view on here!
Climbing isn't environmentally damaging in a meaningful way. We remove vegetation from the crags and presumably frighten off shy species, but only on bits of rock that are good for climbing. It doesn't matter! The vegetation and wildlife has all the unclimbable choss in the country, we get the nice solid clean faces, and that's the deal. We're not wiping out species or poisoning rivers...
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In reply to Jon Stewart:
As a climber, I am certainly not making a claim that climbing is in any way immoral...probably the opposite, by allowing grades to get harder it is implied I am supporting we get better at it!
> If you think climbing per se is in some way immoral, I don't think you'll get much sympathy for your view on here!
As a climber, I am certainly not making a claim that climbing is in any way immoral...probably the opposite, by allowing grades to get harder it is implied I am supporting we get better at it!
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