UKC

Lawrencefield The club will be having its annual freshers climb on Sunday 25th of September, meaning we will be taking many people down to Lawrencefield. Just a warning then that the crag will be extremely busy for the majority of the day. We will have top ropes on Gingerbread Slab from 11-4, possibly later. Sorry for any inconvenience caused.

In reply to Elis Evans:

Unacceptable. You can't simply block-book a popular section of a popular crag for 5 hours or more.

Here's last year's post equivalent to yours:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=625297
"This Sunday (27th September) the University of Sheffield Mountaineering Club will be running our annual Freshers' Climb at Lawrencefield. We expect the crag to be exceptionally busy, so suggest avoiding it if possible. If you do come to Lawrencefield, we will try our best to not get in your way."

Do you see why this is better?

Have you read these?
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/5-steps-to-planning-the-perfect-freshers-climbing-...
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=1330

In reply to deepsoup:


They haven't so much 'block-booked' it as said that they plan on putting topropes up, specifically so that anyone who was, say, planning on making a long journey to climb there has the opportunity to consider another venue, of which there are a few in the Peak. I'd say that it's also pretty decent of them in the sense of simply letting people know that a large quantity of people will be there in the first place, especially as they'll mostly be first-year uni students - I sure as hell don't want to be anywhere near that lot while trying to climb (having once been a first-year, I know how much shit gets chatted), even at the other side of the quarry, so I appreciate the heads-up. I'm pretty confident that, were someone to turn up and want to lead one of the routes, they'd be very accommodating, considering the fact that the people running these meets are, in fact, real climbers themselves.

Honestly, though, it's a shit part of the crag, so why not let them have it? It's convenient for their purposes, and I'm sure we'd all rather the topropes were on already-trashed, not particularly good routes at Lawrencefield than three-star ones at Stanage or Froggatt. I can't help but feel that anyone who has their day ruined by finding topropes on one-star routes probably needs some sort of short sharp shock anyway.

In reply to Elis Evans:

I am there from 9am to 2pm with my team and we will also be on the slabs.

What do you propose we do to sort this out?

In reply to deepsoup:

Informative links, I feel the following is particularly insightful:

"Something that has worked well in the past has been a single online thread [...] Unfortunately these threads have sometimes descended into general criticism of student clubs, which isn’t what we’re trying to achieve."

In reply to Valkyrie1968:
And plan also on leaving them in situ from 11-5, maybe later - extremely poor form from those bringing groups of novices to the crags, commercial or otherwise.

Also, I don't recognise your description. Gingerbread Wall doesn't strike me as "a shit part of the crag" at all. Gingerbread is a nice fluttery VS/HVS. Snail Crack and Nailsbane are both good routes for the early leads of relative beginners. The bold and technical slab climbs in between are not 3 star classics, granted, but don't need any further trashing from top-roped novices with no chance of climbing them cleanly.

Here's another previous Sheffield Uni freshers' meet heads up:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=475888

"Hi all, just a message to let you know that the High Peak Club from Sheffield University will be conducting their Freshers Climb at the Roadside Bay at Lawrencefield throughout the day of the 25th of September (Sunday Coming). The Pool Wall will also be fairly busy with leading pairs as well. We apologise for any problems caused."

Some freshers' meets are run better than others, and for the last few years I believe Manchester and Sheffield (among others) have done particularly well, setting an example of good practice to minimise the impact of their large groups on the crag and other users of the crag.

Bunging multiple top-ropes on Gingerbread slab and leaving them in situ all day is most definitely not good practice, and it would be a shame to see the Sheffield club setting a different kind of example.

In reply to deepsoup:

We'll just have to disagree about the quality of Gingerbread Slab, but that's incidental to the point here. What's salient is that you're judging the actions of a group before those actions have even occurred, on the basis of what has been said in the past and what hasn't been said today. It's such nonsense to suggest that, because they haven't said that they'll happily move topropes, they won't; the phrase "We will have top ropes on Gingerbread Slab from 11-4, possibly later" doesn't, admittedly, reek of a desire to keep others happy, but it equally doesn't mean that those in charge on Sunday will tell anyone who walks over and asks for a toprope to be moved to piss off. Those who grumble under their breath about topropes being in the way and don't actually say anything, or act confontationally, probably won't get what they want, but such people don't deserve to.

More importantly, I think that your replies here evince the classic UKC perspective on top-roping and uni groups: That anyone who wishes to notify others that toproping on a large scale will be occurring must acknowledge its inferiority to leading and prostrate themselves before the community, demonstrating sufficient humility and knowledge of the etiquette of British crag climbing that they will be allowed to do this by our benevolent overlords. All of this, however, is wrong. Freshers meets, and toproping more generally, are going to happen, and they're going to happen somewhere; the organisers don't have to announce when and where, but doing so means that those of us who use UKC know where to avoid on the day. Coming out with the sort of crap that you've come out with will do nothing but make future discussions of freshers meets include the question 'what's the point of posting on UKC anyway, when all it leads to is baseless slandering?', and so in the future people may not even bother notifying us. As Chris's quotation above observes, this kind of thread usually degenerates into all sorts of accusations being thrown around, in this case before anything has happened, and so only serve to widen the gap between university clubs and UKC, or at least the older, more vocal element, who have nothing better to do but bitch and moan.

In reply to deepsoup:

They definitely do read the BMC guidance.


Tick
This will be thought about and covered


Tick
A careful crag choice (and routes) has been made and has worked well for freshers meets over the last however many years without issue.
Whilst micro groups are ideal, it's not always convenient. BMC says that top-roping is fine if done considerately. Given the numbers often in attendance it is hard to split into small groups without having to take over the full crag. By choosing some easy, low/no starred routes to allow people to top-rope, it is minimising the impact to others. If someone really wants to climb one of these routes I'm sure they would be happy to put the rope aside and let they have a go.

By having slacklines up etc it keeps everyone occupied without the need for everyone to be climbing.


Tick
The club always seeks to minimise damage.


From my experience of this meet, other people at the crag have always had a good day out too and not been impacted. Seems to have worked thus far.


Clearly this has been done. Perhaps the wording could have been better but shit happens.


In summary, UoSMC works hard to put on a successful freshers meets. Those in recent years have been well thought out and have received positive feedback from others. if the REALLY impacts your plans they will be more than happy to accommodate you but in reality one afternoon on some mediocre routes isn't going to end the world.

In reply to James Malloch:


Totally of topic but..... Has the SCUM moniker been dropped?

In reply to James Malloch:


I'd hope that that's the case as well, and I'd guess that it probably is, but I can see how the way that they've communicated it (or failed to do so) in the original post has rubbed some people up the wrong way.

In reply to neilh:

I think they got first dibbs

In reply to Elis Evans:

Thanks for letting everyone know.

If you edit your post to include something like last year's post-
If you do come to Lawrencefield, we will try our best to not get in your way - it would improve the tone, and you might get less grief.

In reply to James Malloch:





That rather has the ring of one of those bland policy statements you get from companies and politicians; it's not realistic to expect such a vague assertion to allay climbers' concerns.

Will you, for example, be making sure that all your climbers wear rock boots, and making sure they're clean before climbing the rock?

In reply to fromsinkingships:
They are informative links, i believe, that's why I posted them.
You feel that "general criticism of student clubs" is what I'm doing here? Not my intention at all.

I've encountered large uni groups on the Eastern grit many times over the years and have admittedly sometimes found them very irritating. On other occasions though I've found them an absolute delight to be around. I'm not the curmudgeonly old tw*t Valkyrie1968 thinks I am, believe it or not, and the enthusiasm of the young is immensely uplifting.

The Sheffield Uni groups of the last few years would definitely be more of the latter for me, their freshers' meets have been pretty exemplary, long may that continue. The OP that began this thread didn't seem to me to bode well, hopefully I'm as wrong as you think I am.

Valkyrie, I'm not asking anyone to "prostrate themselves before the community, demonstrating sufficient humility and knowledge of the etiquette", but I would hope that everyone taking large groups to these busy crags is aware of, and makes an effort to follow, the code of practice laid out in that Green Guide.

In reply to bpmclimb:



I'm an ex-student/member now living away so will not be involved and therefore can't speak on behalf of the new committee. However in the past, when I was helping run this event, if rock boots could be found or borrowed then they were used. There was also an emphasis on the cleaning of shoes prior to climbing.

Sure, some people will be climbing in trainers which can't be perfectly clean and it's not ideal, but that's an unfortunate problem when you have clubs with limited funding and resource combined with lots of people who are interested in joining / trying out climbing for the first time.

However that's where sensible route choices (such as low grade, low starred routes such as on gingerbread slab) make a difference.

Nothing is ever perfect and not everyone will be pleased, but the club tries its best to mitigate risks of damage, disruption and problems and brings many new people into an activity that they'll love and will become a dominant part of their life.

In reply to James Malloch:
Glad to hear it.

Yes, from what I've seen I'd agree that you've done well the last few years.

Indeed. You've tended to do the bulk of your top-roping in the Roadside Bay rather than over by the pool previous years haven't you?

If that's all it is, cool. It certainly could have been, but yes it does.

In reply to James Malloch:


Do you think so? I'd say it's one of the poorer choices available - a popular but relatively small crag, with an even smaller section which most visitors head for (I don't think I've ever been there and not found people climbing on gingerbread slab routes), and they've chosen this section to set up their top ropes.
At least if they'd picked somewhere like Stanage then there are hundreds of other routes available for others to climb.

Damn, I've got involved in a freshers thread.

In reply to deepsoup:

My point is simply that, by assuming the worst regarding behaviour that hasn't happened yet, based on nothing but some bad experiences (which as you say yourself, have been outnumbered by good experiences) and the tone of a post, you're coming across as somewhat (in your words) curmudgeonly. I'm sure that's not what you had in mind, and you simply wanted to ensure that people follow best-practice, but assuming that they won't and telling them off in advance simply means that next year's committee might not bother going to the trouble of putting up a courtesy post, as this year's generated more replies along the lines of yours - opening with the inimical "Unacceptable." - than ones simply saying "Cheers for the heads up, hope it goes well".

I think that that would be a shame; on a personal level, it means that I don't have to arrive at a crag and deal with the visual and aural horror of first-year students, rolling around in filth and loudly talking about how hungover they are, and more broadly it would signify an even more pronounced divide between uni clubs and the climbing community as a whole.

So, cheers for the heads up, hope it goes well.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

There are arguments either way. But if people are generally thinking about how to minimize their impact then I'd rather see them applauded for making the effort than taken to task for arguably not doing it precisely optimally - they'll still be a hell of a lot better than a group who just don't care.

(Although yeah, FWIW I'd always thought that the roadside bay was the canonical group toproping area at Lawrencefield, too...)

In reply to Elis Evans:
Seems to me that the main problem is that there are just not enough decent venues in the Peak. It's pretty obvious, to any old keyboard jocky in the know, that everyone will be wanting to climb on gingerbread slab on that day and no other day is actually possible for the next decade at least. The only other viable venue, of comparable quality, is the Hells Bells area of Millstone. Being in the opposite direction to where everyone, on that day, will be going, it is simply out of the question. I suggest you all go f*ck yourselves.

In reply to James Malloch:

But you need to remeber that a) people like to be outraged out of all proportion over simple things, and b) have an arbitary hatred of University clubs.

In reply to Elis Evans:
It's good to see that the annual "Freshers go climbing" car crash threads are getting off to a strong start this year. September is the best of all the months for internet climber rage!

In reply to ianstevens:

As an aside, if it were up to me they'd all be off to minus 10 - the real jewel of the peak. If any of the freshers are like I was then they'll soon defect to the limestone anyway when they realise they won't get strong fingers by climbing on grit.

In reply to nicmac:

I hope they get there before us then!

LOL

In reply to kedvenc72:

If everyone in the peak is descending on Gingerbread Slab then I'm going to take the rare opportunity to avoid the queues at Stannington Ruffs!

In reply to James Malloch:


Totally agree, along with the other Peak Jewels: Tom's Roof, Tom's Cave, Rubicon, Raven Tor and Blackwell Dale.
Mrs Paul_in_Sheffield and I were eliminate bouldering on Carreg Hyll Drem on Saturday rather than losing strength on Welsh trad.

In reply to davidbeynon:

ssshh, or everyone will realise the same thing.

In reply to davidbeynon:


Merman's Meander (M) <shudders>

In reply to Elis Evans:
With paid car parking such as Lawrencefield it is better to know beforehand, thanks for posting.

I'm sure as a long-founded club you will already know this, but please can you ensure the use of clean climbing shoes on the slab. Just saying as I've seen a lot of groups overlook this when busy/excited to get out, and trainers and/or mucky rock boots on an E1 slab are never a good thing!

Edit : just seen this was already mentioned, must have missed it oops - partially selfish concern as i still have one of the slab routes left to do!

In reply to davidbeynon:

There may be no queues but I've installed in-situ top ropes on all the classics.

In reply to DerwentDiluted:

That is one hell of a route description.

In reply to kedvenc72:

All the classics or just all the acknowledged classics?

In reply to davidbeynon:
ALL the classics. Pretty much the entire crag.

In reply to kedvenc72:

You rotter!

In reply to DerwentDiluted:
Ha ha. That's a great description.
Truly you are the choss botherer's choss botherer and an inspiration to us all.

In reply to DerwentDiluted:
That looks brilliant. Unfortunately it has a top rope on it for the forseeable future so I won't get to lead it.

If that kind of climb is your thing then you would love the Exmoor coast!

In reply to Elis Evans:

Good grief, how standards in SCUM have dropped. I remember the SCUM freshers meet being at Gogarth back in the mid-seventies

In reply to Graham Hoey:

The first freshers meet is, I believe, held at Tremadog each year. Though it's a few weeks into the semester vs. this which is something where anyone and everyone can come along for a quick taster before committing to joining and whether to go one the first proper meet.

I think sea cliffs are banned now too due to past accidents.

In reply to davidbeynon:


Agreed. The annual tradition is being celebrated strongly this year!


Disagree, it's normally October when someone climbs Pygmy Ridge fully tooled up after a sprinkle of powdery snow and the British climbing internet explodes.

In reply to TobyA:

I eagerly await the first frost on Kinder.

In reply to davidbeynon:

Is it in yet ?

In reply to GrahamD:

I did a google image search that suggested it might be.

In reply to Elis Evans:

The thing about Gogarth, although true (we did go to other less serious places as well on other years) was just a fun joke. What is wrong with some people? It was not a criticism of current SCUM members; you may have noticed the smiley face. I despair sometimes.

In reply to deepsoup:
It's got to be better than a Freshers meet I witnessed some years ago where someone kept falling off Billy Whiz onto the only piece of gear a cam in the slanting crack We offered some advice and left rather than witness a potential death fall
If on the rare occasion there is a top rope on my chosen route I pull it down !

In reply to Graham Hoey:
But it was rumoured you took freshers along blindfolded to the changing area at wen slab to try and frighten them........

In reply to GrahamD:


You sound like my wife...

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

They better hope the national trust dont show up and rig the place up again....

In reply to Elis Evans:

What is the value in bussing fresher's to crags for top roping? You're not an outwards bound centre - you're a university club for climbers. You should be supporting you members, providing access for climbers and welcoming to a sustainable number of newcommers. I thought this trend for mass recruitment of freshers for the first couple of trips had passed.

My old club would go to a large or less popular crag,and climb in pairs with leaders finding new seconds. Occasionally as 3s if necessary. Moving around the crag rather than dominating one area.

In reply to Elis Evans:
Like deepsoup I have been really impressed with SU introdutions at Lawtencefield in the past (including witnessing proceedings one year whilst climbing obscure lines on the same crag) and have repeatedly praised the club on UKC. I would request you consider modifying your plan to what has taken place in the last few years (top ropes in the first bay and lead groups elsewhere on the crag). Thank you for posting irrespective.

In reply to deepsoup:
at least your informed now.

In reply to neilh:



FIIIIIGGGHHHTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!

In reply to bouldery bits:

A plank over the pool and a couple of quarterstaffs should provide plenty of entertainment...

In reply to Elis Evans:

If my memory serves me right the Sheffield University Mountaineering Club Lawrencefield Freshers meet uses regular service buses to get students out to The Peak. Whilst that doesn't mean that it has to be Lawrencefield it cuts down the choice that are convenient. Traveline shows that by public transport today it would take about 5 hours to get to Holyhead and then its still quite a hike to Gogarth

I must admit that I'm not an impartial by-stander. My son went last year and loved it.

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

Last year was better organised... top ropes on Gingerbread slab are new and less than exemplory for a student club often used as a shining example of how to run such trips.

In reply to Offwidth:


Are you sure. I'm sure my son said that he did Every Man and his Dog (E1 5b)

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):


This in itself can be an issue. As a past member of a large sheffield university outdoors club we had a few issues with the buses being full and then not stopping for others further down the route.
We would try to make sure we weren't on the same buses as the high peaks club and We tried to get the bus company to put a special on for us or even just a double decker but had no hope. We also tried minibuses but didn't have enough drivers or access to enough buses.
Freshers week meets and "give it a go" (official sheffield union organised event) weekends were just a stressful pain in the arse for the committee and didn't really give a realistic impression of the club activities because it was impossible to do so when dealing with such large numbers.

In reply to gethin_allen:

The club generally go in three trips which will lessen the impact of buses. I.e. One group sets off at 10, 11 and 12, or something.

Means those with hangovers can have a lie in too.

In reply to Elis Evans:

Not really surprised at the number of outraged climbers. Typical.

Instead of "Hope you all have a brilliant day" ..."We're going elsewhere" it's

"We're going to get there before you and block the routes you intend to climb." Pathetic.

Hope all your freshers had a great time!

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):
I'm not 100% sure about last year but in the past the rest of the crag outside the first bay was used for leading. When I used the crag on the same day a few years earlier any routes in the main section were led first (albeit sometimes with mulitiple seconds belayed by the leader) and asking if they needed to move out the way if anyone else turned up nearby to lead. They were polite, having fun without being boorish, and broadly following the BMC green guidelimes. It would be a shame if such a previous known example of good practice are becoming lazy and monopolising popular starred routes with bottom ropes.

These are the sorts of posts we should be seeing:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=650395

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

I also forgot to say there should be no such route as Every Man and his Dog (E1 5b) .... Meringue and Gingerbread share runners without moving off-line so where is the route in between? This is either a pure eliminate on Gingerbread (avoiding use of the arete and the joint runners) or a similar one avoiding the crack on Meringue. If we applied such rules across the peak the logbooks would become so over-complicated as to be almost useless.

In reply to Offwidth:




It sounds like something similar this year. Son lead some easy routes in the first bay and the a VS behind the Pool. No idea what else was happening

In reply to Offwidth:


I don't think I can be held responsible for the existence of an eliminate that I've never done. But I see no harm in it

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

Any route can be climbed numerous ways with other rules. Navigating the logbooks becomes tricky if we head too far down that slippery slope by naming every possibility. Variations can be logged under the comments in the existing routes.

In reply to Philip:


Have you ever actually been involved in running a University club? :P

I've seen my Uni recruit over 100 new members in a year, some of whom will go on the outdoor Freshers trip (one of the best significant advertisements for the club if done well). You might see 20-30 members (including those of previous years) by the end of the year because of attrition, mostly shortly after joining. Most of those will only go outside once or twice on trips (often only on sport trips + Font). If you don't recruit heavily at the start of the year you don't remain sustainable. In the long run you lose competency and enter a negative spiral...

It's nice if you do have enough competent leaders to take people lead up stuff but that is often just not the case. Often what leaders you have might only climb Severe (often pretty trivial for anyone who has done indoor climbing and sometimes even for novices) and (depending on the crag) not really be OK taking two seconds up. Particularly with inexperienced leaders it is a lot slower than clipping someone onto a top-rope (uni trad faff is endless )

The end result is the next generation of climbers, so as long as it is done in a considerate way that doesn't cause excessive damage (remember ALL climbing results in some damage) and doesn't get in people's way more than absolutely necessary, what's the issue?

In reply to andrewmcleod:


Yes. For 7 years (undergraduate and doctorate degrees).

We had 100+ turn up for the first gathering I was treasurer (up from a handful in previous years). That was when we had to adapt, learn to spread out more. That was 16 years ago. Since then freshers meets have become less of an issue as most clubs are quite thoughtful.

What is the point of promoting climbing as top roping in the peak. That's far removed from the real sport.

Take people to North Wales. Climb in 3s on long VDiffs in wet conditions. That will sort out the wheat from the chaff.

In reply to Philip:

Ditto... 15 years helping out a student club and all our top roping for beginners was indoors. The idea that initial outdoor top roping trips cuts attrition and prevemts the decline of a club is plain ridiculous. Our major first freshers outdoor trip was nearly always Snowdonia around the end of October when all the the time wasters and posers had usually already left and keen club climbers felt that help teaching the remaining beginers was a good investment.

In reply to Offwidth:

I think several people on this thread might be misunderstanding what some of these trips are for. The "freshers trip" when I was at uni (about nine years ago) wasn't taking all the new members out for their first taste of what climbing is all about. It was about putting on taster sessions for people who are trying to decide which clubs to join. It's a recruitment effort. All the clubs at my uni put them on during Fresher's Week. If we didn't, only people who already knew they were keen on climbing would join and we'd have missed out on half of our members. You can't replace that with trips to Wales in late October. Those trips happen too but they're a completely different thing, long after people have joined whatever clubs they're going to join.

In reply to Luke90:
Good grandmother egg sucking lessons there. You think in 15 years that didnt dawn on me (and my contempories and clubs like Manchester Uni now) I couldn't see any sensible argument linking mass early top roping trips outdoors with club development: it simply wasn't what the club was about (ie trad, boulder, winter and alpine climbing) and it wasted precious club funds and experienced members effort when so many time wasters were still around. I could see the point of 'hard lesson' initial trips for boosting recruitment and raising money... then putting most people off quickly, so the club money quickly moved to maintaining an elite group and subsidising their kit and travel, but I always prefered a more honest broad based supporting approach. This was all especially so when we had initially OK and soon excellent local indoor facilities (with things like shoe hire cutting costs for the unsure). When we worked closely with the BMC (to stop bogus H&S ideas from an ill informed SU damaging our efforts and to engage with their excellent club training ) they seemed to agree it was a good approach. The obvious super keen newbies linked up in smaller groups and got out on real crags quicker.

In reply to Elis Evans:

New UKC opportunity, Route Booking Service. Damn, I hope not!

In reply to Elis Evans:

Even considering the fair fact that you haven't phrased it very well (which you haven't) I believe you have been given a hard time here. Your original post still only refers to ONE occasion where you and several others will be unfortunately contributing to the SMALL increase in human activity climbing on ONE buttress for just FIVE hours at a crag which is NOT known to be one of the most popular in the Peak on ONE day out of 364 others in the calendar year. I think a lot of people have their priorities wrong and have a lot of growing up to do. On that note I would just like to wish u all the best and I hope you and the other students left little artificial footprint behind and also had a fantastic day out climbing together

In reply to Rocknast:


yes it is

In reply to Elis Evans:

How did the meet go? I hope you all had a great time.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

http://www.tonybarrell.com/planet-zog-cosmic-truth/

In reply to Offwidth:

No, the trick with it these days is to get as many involved and paid up as possible before fobbing them off and using their cash to fun trips abroad.

The time and club funds invested by the committee in these initial trips more than pays for itself in subsidised pan au chocolat and chateau de burgundy in Font.

In reply to Tommy Moore:

I really do hope you're being sarcastic,
otherwise I fear you've lost all attachment to reality... but just in case I'll say the following in hopes others may learn something as well.

Uni clubs generally struggle to collect enough money to run the most basic trips and activitied. USMC in particular makes a constant loss, which - after lots of arguments and meetings with the committee - is luckily reimbursed by the Union. And no, it's not because we're buying wine and pastries or funding trips abroad for some excelling individuals, but rather because we're paying for students to get SPA assessed, MIDAS qualified, or first aid trained, just to name a few. All of these are essential for the club and more or less ensure it's survival. As a matter of fact, USMC runs no trips abroad as it would be impossible to fund, and
of no benefit to the club as a whole!

The reason you may come across us students while abroad is because we, like
you, enjoy the sport. And typically people pursue things they enjoy!

In reply to MSchobitz:

Genuine question here: Why are you paying for members to go on various training courses? Or more pertinently why do you think having sufficient SPA holders ensures the survival of the club? No club I've ever been involved with has had to have anybody qualified to do anything more demanding than drive a car.

In reply to MSchobitz:
No I was on about the other lot!

MIDAS is not essential, although bloody handy. Many clubs get by with public transport, student drivers and hitching lifts.

SPA is a luxury, unless a previous committee has foolishly backed themselves into a corner with the union by agreeing that all club leaders be professionally qualified.

Mandatory qualifications for student clubs is a slippery path towards undesirable professional liability and responsibility on the shoulders of students who should have other focuses at that stage in life, such as getting a degree for their chosen career.

In-house training and leadership schemes, the details of which should be agreed upon by the club and the union creates longer term stability in the club.

What happens when your ~5 committee SPAs graduate and move away? The club and/or union loses it's investment of ~£300 per person.

In reply to MSchobitz:

Having been a member of two outdoor clubs that manage their funding well through sponsorship, schemes and appropriate member subs, I suggest that the USMC needs to go through their accounts with a fine tooth comb!

Running at a constant loss is a worrying way for students to be taught about finance and committees.

There's money out there if you know where to look, and know how to stop it going missing.

In reply to Tommy Moore:

What do you suggest, young adults with less than a few hundred hours experience leading others with no knowledge or experience and running activities that can lead to serious injury and death with no form of standardised training? The death in Parsley Fern Gulley illustrated what can go wrong when inexperienced leaders get into terrain and situations they are ill equiped to deal with.

In reply to muppetfilter:
Common sense. Its impractical to train club members to the required standards of instructing outdoor leading, especially winter or alpine so you subsidise training and set a scope of operation for climbers to build on this and learn together as they would outside the club. The BMC helped us fight off changes that would have turned us into indoor only top rope club, with information and occasional direct advice.

In reply to muppetfilter:
Nope, you've ignored the bit I said about standardised training, Muppet.

Sure, there is a problem with inexperienced people being cocky or going too far beyond the realms of their experience, ramp it up bit by bit, leave your comfort zone, that's how we grow as climbers and people.

This can be mitigated by keeping older, more experienced members in the clubs who pass on their skills at a personal, not professional level. You know, that old trad apprenticeship that many UK climbers serve. Or am I the only person under 30 to have done that?

And besides, this forum is usually full of old farts reminiscing about the olden days when they were lads heading out with bits of washing line and nothing for gear but little filed out bits of hyperbole on string.

Is that another life experience the young must now be deprived of?

I appreciate I'm being more than a bit facetious. I just hate the way climbing seems to be going, losing the anarchy and turning into plastic.

I know how to keep myself happy and I understand what I enjoy isn't for everyone. It's just a shame to see those options being restricted.

In reply to Tommy Moore:

I didnt ignore your comment, i simply dont accept it. "In house training" being given by the inexperienced to the even more inexperienced is a proven recipe for disaster, personal climbing skills and group ones are different. Knowledge and skills become stagnant and insular with bad habbits and misinformation being passed on as best practice.

I will never forget meeting three members of staffs uni in the clachaig all sporting matching left eyebrow wounds all due to the "experienced" commitee member who assured them the correct form for iceaxearrest training was to hold the adze above theleft shoulder so as not to damage ones jacket....

Ps. As you seem so concerned about the young being robbed of experiences i would love to hear about your achievements in helping the disadvantaged and the under represented minorities discover climbing.

In reply to Tommy Moore:

Running a university club these days is a lot more complicated than just getting a bunch of people together and going climbing. If you charge a membership fee you automatically become liable for a lot of stuff.
The students union will not let you operate without sufficient first aid provision/risk assessments/training.
In Sheffield and Bristol universities (and probably others) you couldn't get a minibus without a MIDAS certificate and relying on public transport/personal cars just isn't sufficient.
If something happens on a club event the event organiser and the committee will be put through the ringer and every aspect of the event will be scrutinised.

Relying on older experienced members to teach the freshers isn't sufficient: For a start, the average member is only in the club for 2.5 years and only ~19 years old and everyone has their own idea of what if acceptable/safe and this is a unmeasurable piece of string.

In reply to muppetfilter:
There is a middle way and I suspect Tommy 's club won't be so far from that. It is simply impractical to train most students beyond single pitch awards in their time at Uni and the experience from those with lower level awards its good for them but isn't so useful helping the club outdoors (more normally about SU/AU insurance type arrangements or building their portfolio for their own use). Clubs have to rely on help from elsewhere: from organisations like the BMC, from experienced club members (one reason why it is a mistake to prevent ex-students or Uni staff being involved) and purchased training from people who have had the time and money to get the qualifications to teach leading on rock and ice (preferably subsididsed by the SU/AU and the club).

In terms of public knowledge (in the news and training lectures) of avoidable student 'climbing' club serious accidents most seem to be hiking related in winter conditions where the activity should be considered easy winter mountaineering. I do know of one avoidable serious accident: of the type you described: a climber was obviously giving bad advice in a club so was formally stopped from having a training role in the club... he bypassed this by taking new club members out individually in a private capacity and soon hurt one of them very badly.

In reply to muppetfilter:

You make a few assumptions in your first paragraph, who says the the training is being given by inexperienced individuals? Only you.

Knowledge and skills becoming stagnant is a culture issue with a particular set of people and that set only. Believe it or not there are ways and means to keep your knowledge about skills and techniques up-to-date and relevant. The amount of published material on paper and digitally, constant forum discussions from around the world (its bigger than UKClimbing thankfully) and training videos, that has never been easier. Also look at the support that the BMC provide to the clubs who need it most.

One thing that is lacking in the student climbing world is something like CHECC in the caving world. The BMC goes some way to mitigate this, but pure student representation and consideration would be invaluable to supporting student climbing clubs in health and safety discussion with unions and sharing skills between clubs - 'adopt a club' schemes when numbers and experience starts to dwindle.

Shifting the focus of the discussion from 'young climbers' in general to 'under represented minorities' seems a bit straw man but I'm no fallacy expert, I'll leave that to someone else unless you wish to elaborate.

Seeing as how you are so interested in my personal climbing, I often take friends and coursemates climbing who are not climbers, they may have a hill-walking background, or grew up in an area where the outdoors was never considered as a place to spend time.

So I do my bit to expose people to the hobby, some see value in it and continue, be it indoors or outdoors, some are happy to have tried it and subsequently choose not to continue. A great deal of my climbing has been shared with inexperienced people, because I love to show people my favourite thing: adventure for the sake of adventure.

People keep saying MIDAS is essential. In 3 years of university climbing and caving, I have never been on a minibus. Some clubs are lucky (or sensible) enough to have cars, local crags to get public transport to, or the bravery (sadly) to hitchhike.

Gethin: You state one of the key issues with university clubs - the high turn over rate of members. This can be knocked on the head by allowing alumni full, unfettered membership. This allows them to stay and support the club and pass on their experience, whilst still benefiting from the advantages a student club atmosphere provides. It's simple, but not many places do it.

Muppet: If you're doing ice axe arrests you're not climbing; you're winter hillwalking or mountaineering. There can be differentiation between these activities and different clubs to do them. My experience at the club level is mainly with pure rock climbing.

In reply to Tommy Moore:

Essential? No. Phenomenally helpful? Yes. Not everyone has the correct car/members ratio to get people out an about, some students don't want to drive on trips, and public transport is often awful. A minibus gets round this. Furthermore, I'd much rather have someone drive who has a bit of experience and has received an extra level of testing, than 18 year olds who, in my experience, are generally terrible drivers. Most dangerous part of the day being the journey rather than the climbing and all that.


That implies that the alumni a) live locally, b) want to be involved, and c) want to actually teach. Student clubs are meant to be a subset of the student body of the University, not for external members. Links with the current and alumni clubs (many places have them) would be far better.

In reply to ianstevens:

We never had the slightest problem with enough alumni wanting to stay involved and plenty of problems with the SU dealing with the issue on bogus safety or insurance grounds in ways that would have increased risk and greatly limited the club scope.... if they had won (which they didn't partly due to our experience and partly due to help from the BMC).

Minibus effectiveness depends on the subsidy... we found cars cheaper (obviously on just petrol costs, not full costs) and had a mix with usually only one minibus on bigger trips (as much for the pub as anything else) ...its amazing what an incentive climbing is to get people learning to drive and buying a cheap car.

In reply to Trangia:

It went really well thanks, everyone seemed to have a good time and some of our existing members managed to get a few good leads in

Regards,
Harry (Current chair of USMC)

In reply to Tommy Moore:
Which Uni are you from, just out of curiosity?

It is easier to attract new members in areas around climbing; some people will have come to the area for the climbing/outdoors anyway, more locals will have climbed before, better local climbing makes it easier to keep members.

It is easier to attract new members in big Unis and big cities than small ones. This probably explains part of why London universities often have reasonably successful mountaineering/caving clubs despite being a long way from either.

It is much easier to keep alumni if you are in a big city where more people will stay rather than in a small city many alumni will leave.

Some universities have massively differing policies about funding their clubs; some are much better at helping/hindering AU clubs gaining new members.

For example:
Sheffield University should never really struggle to get members for climbing or caving, as they are plonked in the middle of some of the best climbing in the country and not far from good caving. Oxford Uni clubs generally have all of the money. Both will tend to retain alumni well as they are big cities where alumni will linger.

I am currently based in Exeter which has a population of ~300k and bugger all around it, although there is some excellent climbing in the 1-3 hour drive range (plus Dartmoor a bit closer). It is a smaller Uni in a smaller city. The caving club is certainly smaller; the climbers don't do so badly but in both cases many alumni leave the city in search of somewhere a little less provincial...

Different universities have different contexts.

As for the external qualifications thing, the _less_ experienced the club the more you want external training. A large well-established climbing club would never need SPA. For a small club with only a few climbers who have ever even done trad then getting the external training in gives the club a chance to survive. In my limited experience of smaller clubs, you can end up relying on those who arrive with the skills and not really have the opportunity to teach them to many new climbers... especially when you have a hierarchy where 80% of your new intake need to learn to climb at all, 40% of whom you may end up teaching to lead indoors and 40% of whom you might end up taking outside on a sport trip (those 40%s do not entirely overlap either!)...