UKC

Hi, I have been climbing indoors for about 3 years, in the last year I started to do more bouldering as training (and easier to get to the local bouldering center than the climbing wall) . In the last year I got 2 finger injuries and then in July my shoulder started to ache. Not thinking much of it, I went off on holidays for 2 weeks and came back, did a bit of climbing and swimming as my shoulder hadn't ached at all over the holiday (10 days of hiking in the Alps with poles). Started to ache again straight away, and still is. Anyone any experience of this kinda thing and how long until it heals? I haven't climbed now for about 7 weeks, am I too impatient?

In reply to RX-78:

You are going to need to supply some more information if you want any useful advice.
Describe how you first noticed the issue, a specific moment that injured it or a gradual awareness of a problem?
Does it ache all the time or only when doing specific movements?
What specific movements?
Is it a dull ache or a sharp pain?
Where is the pain? (don't say "in my shoulder"!)
Any other info you think might be useful

In reply to RX-78:

Sounds as though your antagonist muscles are just underdeveloped, which means your joints are being pulled out of alignment. The best exercises to keep them strong are basically: presses (dumbell press, barbell press or just pressups), overhead presses (dumbell or barbell) and tricep dips (if you have a workbench / kitchen bench corner that's a good place at home). In my experience, when I manage to keep to the schedule and do these a few times a week, all shoulder pains are gone.

Here's a UKC article with some other shoulder exercises: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=119 - although I don't do these ones so can't comment on their effectiveness.

I had shoulder pain issues in both shoulders which may or may not have been related to climbing. It took a year to get sorted, which finally involved treatment by a Consultant. Oh, and in the beginning a doubtless well-meaning gym instructor gave me exercises to do and to "work through the pain" which turned out to be the worst possible advice. I'd go and get an actual assessment from someone qualified if I were you.

In reply to SenzuBean:
I would advise against tricep dips, because they can wreck the shoulders.

Often used prehab antagonist exercises as follows:
- XYTs
- External and internal rotator pulls (using theraband attached to door handle, or cable machine)
- Barbell military press

I also do shrugs and dumbbell side-to-front raises, if I can be bothered, but not seen these in context of prehab.

Oh, and if it's painful when swimming (front crawl), it's probably rotator cuff (aka "swimmer's shoulders").

In reply to Pete_Mosely:


That's only for full-depth dips though as I understand it?


What are these?

In reply to SenzuBean:
Sorry - IYTs (not XYTs)
Lay prone on bench (face/chest down), with slight tilt in bench so head-end is raised. Small dumb-bells (e.g. 4kg). Then raise arms straight out in front to make the 'I' (like Superman). Then raise slightly beyond shoulder width for the 'Y' shape. Then 'T' - arms out to sides. I tend to do 10 reps IYT as a circuit for 3 sets.

Dips are primarily isolation exercises for triceps, not shoulders. Without the full motion, you lose half the gains. There are safer exercises for the shoulders, to work the tris (off topic, but I favour diamond presses, and bench press, close grip for tris).

Some helpful links
1) http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=119
2) http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=6022
3)
http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/one-workout-every-climber-should-d...

In reply to Pete_Mosely:
For IYT exercise, do you start with the dumbells on the floor beneath your head when you are laying on the bench?
I presume you pause at the I, Y, and T positions...? How long for?

In link 1, for the Scaption exercise, by 30' arc, is it meant that you only raise your arm only as high as 30', the ground being 0', arms horizontal 90'....?
Or, do you imagine a plane set leaning away in front of you at 30', vertical being 0', the floor 90', and you follow an arc using the stretch of the band keeping the arc in the 30' plain, but raising your arms quite high.... How high?

In reply to RX-78:
Once recovered you should engage in prehabilitation of the shoulder girdle; handstands/handwalks, L-sits/mannas, planch, frontlever & backlever/Skin-the-Cats. These exercises will build shoulder integrity, strength & flexibility/ROM.

In reply to richrox:
Also, what level of intensity are these rehab exercises best done out?.....
I suppose the first 2 or 3 weeks, or longer? maybe will be mild intensity to gently stimulate growth.?
Followed by perhaps increasing the resistance to 50% your max ability to complete the sets?
Should you, after about a month, be doing the exercises like a workout, to failure at the end of 3rd set?

Or would you always keep these exercises at a lower level of intensity?

In reply to RX-78:

Based on your description, and my lack of expert knowledge, I would say that you do indeed have a sore shoulder! An expert should be able to provide a more specific (and helpful) diagnosis. You are most unlikely to get that from this forum.

In reply to Shani:
Shani, Most of the exercises you listed, are quite high intensity calisthenics positions,.... in addition to climbing, rehab, prehab, how does one fit these into a training program, and remain fresh to climb 2 or 3 times a week?

Planch, front and back lever are quite diffucult, requiring their own progressive training routine, don't you think?

What is ROM?

In reply to RX-78:

I recommend Bikram yoga (the hot one).

I climb, cycle and work at a desk in a pretty stressful job, all of which seem to be bad for posture/a generally balanced body. I've had varous related should/elbow/back issues. I've generally tried to fix each one as it comes and it's soon been replaced by something else.

Started bikram last Sunday, been five times. Early days but it really seems to be helping.

Downsides - apparently you really need to go three plus times a week which is a lot of time and it's pretty tough going with the heat (you'll feel great afterwards though)

In reply to Pete_Mosely:
Link 1 says it would help to do the exercises 3 times a week, but also says best if done everyday...
Wouldn't these muscle groups benefit more from rest days too, in which case 3 times a week would be more ideal?..... is it because they should be done at low or medium intensity that they can be done daily?

In reply to RX-78:

Having read the replies, my best suggestion would be to go see a medical expert. Many of the exercises on here will exacerbate a rotator cuff injury. Many of them require fit shoulders/arms/upper body to do effectively. Many 'self attempt' injury recovery ideas cause increased damage (eg. dips will screw your shoulders). Push your doctor for NHS help, or if you have money go private.

In reply to SenzuBean:




They are a great set of excercises but based on my experienceif you think you've got a problem be very careful trying scaption with your thumb down.

In reply to timjones:

Why? What was your experience with it?

In reply to richrox:


That it caused severe pain, but by starting with my thumb up as most people seem to recommend for rehabilitation I was able to rebuild the stability in my shoulder.

In reply to richrox:

This is where programming and periodisation come in to it. The goal is to address developmental asymmetry (weaknesses), in the shoulder. You shouldn't be climbing at your maximum for months at a time if you want to get stronger and progress uninjured. Exercise variation & deloading allows recovery and supercompensation.


There are variations using tucked and straddle positions (which i still use), that over time will help you progress to more advanced versions of the move.


Range of Motion.

In reply to timjones:
I haven't yet seen anyone highlight any difference, and from the limited info i've so far read, this ex has been demonstrated as should be done with thumbs down, so thanks for the advice.

In reply to RX-78:

Richrox question is dates from September 27. His tears are over guys. No news, good news.

In reply to RR:

But advice may be useful to myself too, and others, today, tomorrow, and next year (s)

In reply to richrox:

Avec le temps … You are right. I am not climbing at the moment because of problem mentioned. Yes, one gets bored and the bad juices are evaporating.
My physio (who was in Rio treating others, when “it” happened) says: she can’t do not too much about it. Wait, tape and relax (take a glass of wine) and do some, but not too much, very light exercises. In the beginning she dry needled twice (once a week) in combination with manual therapy. The thought of those needles is scary but I have to admit it is not too bad.
Shoulder problems are mechanical problems most of the time. In the end it comes down to seek/look for good help. It is just like some garage owners know only by listening what is wrong with a car and can fix the problem where others … diagnose it with a computer and swap parts.
But most of the time it is self-healing, with a little push in the right direction.

In reply to RX-78:
There are two possibilities. Either you have done some proper damage or you haven't.

(1) If you haven't then there's a possiblity physio and exercise (note recommended by a qualified expert who has seen you, not someone off a bl**dy internet forum) might help.

If you have, then (2) its possible that the other bits of your shoulder (shoulder being a massively overcomplicated joint) will compensate over time. It'll never be "right" but It'll do, but it'll never heal properly, and you'll have the problem until you die. Exercise may make things worse.

Alternatively (3) you've done some proper damage and it'll never be OK whatever you do.

The only way of finding out whether 1, 2, or 3 apply is seeing a medical expert, probably a shoulder specialist (back to shoulders being complicated) and probably having an MRI scan.

To be honest, my opinion of anyone giving advice on what you should do for your shoulder over the internet is not doing you any favours. Ignore all of them and go and see soemone who knows what they are talking about.

For what it's worth, I speak from experience. I did a spectacular amount of damage to my shoulder when bouldering. It didn't hurt at the time. It ached afterwards quite a bit, but as long as I didn't climb I was fine. After a year of frustration (and physio) my physio suggested I went to see a consultant as she thought there was something serious. He told me I had tried reasonably sucessfully to rip my shoulder apart, but the other muscles were compensating. After an operation to nail everything back together I then had to unlearn all the bad habits I had fallen into in a year of not doing what I should have done - gone and seen a medical professional and got an MRI scan..

Edit: A proper shoulder specialist will cost a couple of hundred quid private.

In reply to John_Hat:


Which is money well spent.
Cheers
LD

In reply to johncook:

Yes. I spent a year taking useless exercise advice, followed by advice from an equally clueless physio (for which I paid) before seeing a proper consultant who rapidly sorted me out.

In reply to Dogwatch:

Please tell us more...
Who / where was the consultant?
What did they do that was different?
How much did it cost.?
How long before you started climbing again?
Thanks

In reply to richrox:

Just to chip in I have have a depressingly large amount of experience recently with this kind of injury.

General rule of thumb is the RICE protocol. If this doesn't help then take a full week of rest. If it doesn't improve with full rest then it won't get better by itself. Your trekking trip is clearly full rest, at least for those parts of the body anyway, so you need to do something.
I have had good experience with physioterrorists dealing with muscular imbalances, locked muscles and finally a partial tear of the supraspinatis, part of the rotator cuff.
The rotator cuff was diagnosed as a shoulder impingement from my GP, but I asked for the ultrasound which showed the partial depth tear. This is at the mid to high end of the scale of injuries, and took 7 weeks rest followed by 4 physio sessions spread over 5 weeks to get back into training. Training started earlier than this but I wasn't allowed to do overhead movements until then.
The suggestion of going to the doctor is a good one but NHS physios are not hands on, they'll just give you a series of exercises. It's the massage and manipulation that does the work. The other thing is that some areas have excellent physio services and others will take several months for a referral. I always go private.
Physio was £45 first diagnosis sessions then £35 per half hour.
From the exercises suggested, I would say don't do back lever with an injured shoulder - I still can't without pain and I managed to get a full back lever a couple of years ago, and as suggested treat deep dips with caution, since they stretch out the front of the shoulder. Front lever and row work will have a good carryover to climbing...but maybe you need some balance with pushing exercises....?
To see if it's rotator cuff raise your straight arm out to the side, all the way to vertical. If it is pain will be in the shoulder as you come beyond the horizontal.
Good luck with your treatment.