UKC

I'm just back from a couple of days in Northumberland. We went to Bowden Doors and Kyloe out. I really enjoyed my two days, but why are the grades so out of sync with the rest of the UK?! I couldn't lead a diff at Bowden, and had to drop a grade or two at Kyloe. It hasn't put me off, they are very nice crags, but until I am leading E1 everywhere else, I might give Bowden a miss!!

In reply to girlymonkey:

Which Diff? I found the Bowden grades on the right of the crag (closer to the road) easier than the average YMC grit grades. Severe to VS at Kyloe In had me sweating especially this one Piano (S 4c) ( a worthy route just solid VS at least).

In reply to girlymonkey:

Northern male testosterone and ego perhaps

Al

In reply to girlymonkey:

Huh, which diff? The easy stuff at bowden's no harder than anywhere else. There's a couple of tricky-ish severe's at Kyloe out and at least one at Bowden where the start's bloody hard if you're short but not much to worry about... There's a few VSs and HVSs that are a bit punchy mind.

In reply to girlymonkey:
Bowden has a quality sandbag in Lorraine but I found the grades pretty fair at Kyloe Out on my one visit. Tacitation is a bit tough to start but definitely still VS with the difficulties only a couple of feet off the ground. I'm from Yorkshire, mind, so well accustomed to mental and physical scars. At least the latter ones heal in time.

In reply to Offwidth:

Kyloe-in's a bit funny though, so few people climb trad there (other than one or two routes) that no one seems to mind. Plus they're generally so grubby that they probably deserve an upgrade for that.

In reply to Lemony:

The crux was clean on that route... just adjectivally hard. The finish was grubby but not VS grubby.

In reply to girlymonkey:

I think the tech grades are normally not too far out but there are more sandbags than at most venues. That said I think there is a tendency for more soft touches too at some venues in particular. Generally the lower to mid grades are a bit wack.

The main problem with northumberland grades are IMO that they don't seem to account for the need of protection for the first 6 metres or so of the climb, so don't count an unprotected move with feet at 5 meters in the adjectival grade! Bouldering mats when trad climbing are generally a sound idea when climbing in the county IMO.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Corby's perchance?

In reply to Lemony:

At Bowden I think the following are sandbags:

Lorraine how can a mid grade font 5 (solid uk 5b) start be VS 5a pfffft
Sue S 4c, more like HS maybe 5a IMO
Long John severe - yeah right
Triple Cracks - worth VS not HS
Tiger's Wall - upgraded to HVS in some guides now

That's only the ones I know about or have attempted - I'm sure there is more.

In reply to Lemony:

Well I can think of two VS's at berryhill that are super soft touch and seconding some of the easier climbs they seemed soft at the grade too. I fully realise there are some much harder at the grade climbs like Marcher Lord etc

Footsloggers (VS 4c)
Hi Diddle Diddle (VS 4b)

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I've never had a problem with Tiger's wall at VS really, maybe it's easier for the tall? It's at least a grade easier than Lorraine for sure.
Sue I reckon is maybe easy 5a - it'd definitely be 5a if it were at height - but it's so close to the ground I could almost still see it as S.
Triple cracks is one where it pays to just keep going but you're probably right.
Not done Long John.
Lorraine is harder than any of the HVSs I can think of and probably than the E1s too.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

To my discredit I've never actually made it to Berryhill. On the sandbag front, I remember there being some stinkers at Goats but it was about 30 degrees when we were there.

In reply to Offwidth:

I tried to start flake chimney, and failed. So tried flake wall and couldn't get started. In the end my friend started flake chimney and moved onto flake wall. There are a lot of other comments on the logbooks here about the grading too.
Before trying these, I started trying arrow crack (at most crags I start by warming up on a vdiff), and backed off this too.

In reply to girlymonkey:
Hmm maybe you went wrong by trying chimneys (something which does tend to be graded stiffly in the county especially awkward ones) and unstarred routes.

At VD/HVD Castle Crack and Russet Groove are superb routes for their shortish length and fair at the grade. There aren't many routes above HS that take my fancy at bowden. I climb to HVS with the very occasional E1 when going well but more normally VS ish, but I do tend to like reasonable gear.

Its wise to be a little less trust worthy of cams on the rock too as I've seen them pop out of good looking slots.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Can't say I've climbed it and can't say that a no star chimney would have been my pick of warm up route... I don't remember Flake Wall being too bad though, bit reachy to start easily IIRC.


Go and jump on:

Russet Groove (VD)
Castle Crack (HVD)
Deception Crack (VD)
Grovel Groove (S 4a)
Black and Tan (S 4c)
Crescent Wall (S 4b)

In reply to Lemony:

I think folk overstate things a bit re Northumberland grades. Most of Bowden/Back Bowden seemed fair to me at E1/2 (OK, Roof Crack is a complete sandbag!). Lorraine / Tiger's Wall really didn't seem too bad, accepting that at VS 5a it is obviously going to be a case of short and hard. Those who complain about Northumberland grades at the classic venues should go try the moorland grit-style crags of Ravensheugh etc.

In reply to Michael Gordon:
or maybe not

I do agree to a point, that if you accept awkward cracks tend to be under graded and that the guide book seems to think no gear is needed for the first 6 meters of the crag (which in some cases is the top) then in general things aren't so bad once you accustom to the rock.

I personally think in general the sandstone is better for bouldering than trad climbing. The actual rock formations and climbing are pretty cool and make for interesting movement IMO.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


You're missing out, there's loads of crackers! My favourite route there at the moment is Scorpion but The Runnel's not far behind.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Tiger's Wall, totally agree; Lorraine, totally disagree. I can't think of another VS you have to pull half that hard on.

In reply to Lemony:

Yeah Scorpion is actually one I want to lead

In reply to Lemony:

It was just the first vdiff that we came across! Then, having been scared by that one I wanted an easier route, so looked for diffs!

Flake wall 'a bit reachy'! Lol. Only feasible for a giant more like! A diff should be a bimble, not a blank start!

In reply to Lemony:
let's face it the start to Loarrain is a mid grade font 5 boulder problem. That's not likely to be UK5a and it doesn't feel it either.

Its also too pumpy to be VS.

HVS 5b I reckon.

In reply to girlymonkey:


I've heard of this before. Missing out on great crags because of the hard grading.
Bowden is awesome. Why not drop a grade or two and enjoy the climbing instead of the numbers?

Wally

In reply to Lemony:




We did do this one, but I was put off leading by this point so I seconded it. It was a lovely route, but I still contest the grading! The move left about 2 Thirds of the way up was bold for a vdiff.
There are definitely lots of great routes, but I just cannot predict from the guide book which ones I can do as they are so far removed from gradings which I am familiar with!

In reply to Bogwalloper:

I did, and couldn't climb them! Normally I climb Severe without too many issues, and bimble up Vdiff with little thought. I couldn't manage the diffs at Bowden! There's not much further to drop the grade!

In reply to girlymonkey:
Russet Groove is borderline VD / S over the UK grading taken as a whole. Certainly not HS. In the county its mid grade VDiff IMO.

There is good gear by your ankles as you make the move across and the move isn't too hard for VDiff. The tech crux is lower down I reckon.

https://ukc2.com/i/16283.jpg

After that move you are on good holds to the next gear placement IIRC

It is quite a technical climb for a Vdiff I guess but its pretty secure feeling for sandstone as although some of the foot / hand holds are small, its fairly slabby and they are positive.

It would probably get HVD in the eastern peak which has quite soft grades overall.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

There's a good nut by your ankles, a perfectly ok nut near your waist, a cam out right and I think there's a sling on a spike too. It's the route I always chuck first time leaders on so I went up it and placed 20+ bits of gear once to prove a point.

In reply to girlymonkey:
There's a mod...

In reply to Lemony:

That and Castle Crack are at least as good as any 3* VDiffs on grit I've done. Superb routes.

In reply to girlymonkey:
I agree with you. I also found some of the grades at Bowden Doors hard when I climbed there a few years ago, although there were admittedly one or two softer touches..

Some of the V Diffs there are like Scottish V Diffs!!

Also being used to Southern Sandstone I just couldn't bring myself to trust that the rock wouldn't break when leading . That put me on edge which is probably why I was uncomfortable.

or I've become an old aged wimp......

In reply to girlymonkey:

I've been told that in the county if you can jump off the move without breaking bones it isn't included in the grade.
Whether or not that's true I don't know but seeing my mate who regularly leads in the E grades shut down by my second VS lead was priceless!

This said, I reckon that some of the best inland single pitch crags in England are in the county (and that's from someone who climbs mostly on grit!).

In reply to Trangia:

I generally expect routes to be on the hard side of the grading with mediocre gear when I climb in the county then I am pleasantly surprised by easy well protected routes

In reply to spenser:
As a bonus I think in general the cheviots are very scenic and not too busy.

In reply to spenser:

problem I find with this is:
- whats an okish jump for some (say feet at 3-4 metres) is definately not ok for others.
- what happens if you fall and don't jump in a controlled way?

I think moves that are top end of the grade anyway but feet above 3 metres or so should be accounted for in the grade (unless the landing is particularly friendly), unfriendly landings need further accounting for IMO

Northumberland seems to have to opposite approach (ie under grade the tech grade if its not higher up and then ignore the first n meters in the adj grade)

In reply to CurlyStevo:
The Cheviots are excellent, I first started walking in the hills up there, had some great adventures with school friends (my best mate stripping off to wash in a waterfall only to be greeted by a group of old ladies on the Pennine Way comes to mind)!
I'm not saying I agree with the grading, there's an HVS at Great Wanney which felt far more dangerous than any of the scary E1s I've led and as hard as most of the safer ones! I just take the given grade with a pinch of salt, probably not the friendliest place to start climbing but it stands you in good stead for climbing anywhere else in the country.

In reply to spenser:

ha

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I like to think the grades like that were very forward thinking. If you allow yourself pads they generally feel about right whereas there's a fair few routes elsewhere where the grades feel a bit daft with a pad or two.

In reply to BnB:


I don't think it is any more of a sandbag than many other short Bowden routes at HVS and above. The thing is that a lot of the routes are at around the boundary in length between an extended boulder problem ( I believe the new trendy term is "highball") and a proper route. If you treat them as a solo with a slightly scary top out, they can seem much more reasonable, but if you stop to place gear they can feel hard. Lorraine is a perfect example - as long as you don't stop to place gear before the jugs at the break it is fine, but I imagine placing gear in the flake makes it desperate.........

In reply to Bogwalloper:


Absolutely. Bowden is climbing perfection. Like grit but with proper holds; possibly the UK's finest outcrop.

In reply to girlymonkey:
I was told after one of my first visit to Bowden Doors, that the grading does not take into account the first 15 ft as that is considered jumping down distance by the locals!

No idea if it's really is true as a general statement, but I have always found quite a lot of the routes to be quite hard for what I consider the grade. Others surprising quite tame, so maybe there is some truth in the statement?

Nice venues though in N/land.
Edit: Berryhil and Kyloe In are my favourites. Oops, I see CurlyStevo has already mentioned it.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I'm outraged. Russet Groove was always Diff in my day.

In reply to girlymonkey:


I'd avoid The Whanneys then if I were you!

In reply to girlymonkey:

Looking at your recent logged routes takes me into a nostalgic trip down memory lane. Sigh!

In reply to Willi Crater:
I reckon Boundary Corner's at least VD 4c. Could I get my leg up? Could I bollocks.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Quite. "Yields easily to a determined approach" is the expression that comes to mind. You don't seem to see it in route descriptions much any more.

In reply to Andy Long:


I was just thinking that Lorraine is really a softer HVS than Main Wall. Whereas the moves on Lorraine are straightforward strenuousness and you'd be unlucky to do worse than break anything if you messed up, the crux on Main Wall is awkward to start and the crux quite blind to onsight and the landing is much worse, so you really do need to get some gear in the break.

In reply to Robert Durran:
>I imagine placing gear in the flake makes it desperate.........

Yep! I led Lorraine back in the early nineties. Placed gear at the top of the flake, got established on the traverse then the gear popped out. I barely managed to top out, then spent the rest of the day hugging the ground.

In reply to jonesieboy:

Lorraine was my first VS lead back around 1990, before I had any cams. I got a single bit of gear at the top of the flake and then ran it out to the top. I went back a couple of years ago, foot popped from the layback, ended up back on the ground very quickly! Ahh, the naivety of youth!!

In reply to girlymonkey:


Don't waste time and faff about leading or seconding lower grade routes at these venues, it's much more efficient to just solo the 'routes' / problems.

In reply to girlymonkey:

You've got it the wrong way round. The County is the last bastion against the grade creep affecting the rest of the country. Lorraine always was and always will be VS 5a.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Problem is that many of the routes were initially solos (or highballs in modern parlance) plus the active climbers were probably better than they realised (in the 1979 guide Pharoh's Face at the Wanneys got VS - now it gets E2) The grades at Ravensheugh have always seemed to me at least to border on the preposterous - e.g. the trouser legs no gear for 15m E1 ?

In reply to DaveHK:
But that's nonsense, isn't it? There's tons of routes all over the country which have been VS 5a from time immemorial and which are still a grade or more easier than Lorraine.

In reply to girlymonkey:

In my experience, Kyloe Out was graded toughly, but mostly about right (at the top of the grade). Whereas almost everything at Bowden was a sandbag.

In general in Northumberland I find that once you get to about VS then things become more as expected, below that and especially at VDiff, they seem to take great delight in misgrading! But at least they're consistent so after the first route you can adjust your expectations

In reply to girlymonkey:
Do we dare mention Callerhues? Home of the VS 6a Cold Start (E3 6b)

(I know rock fax has upgraded it, but in the current NMC guide VS 6a http://northumberlandclimbing.co.uk/index.php?v=5&s=2&id=12)

In reply to Robert Durran:
lorraine is fine to the break if you can boulder solid F5 or in your case climb mid e greades. Bear in mind F5 is generally solid 5b or even 5c on that sandstone. Its not 5a climbing IMO so the grade needs changing anyway.

However I don't think there is a place for F5 bouldering on VS routes myself.

A slip even with mats can still easily equate to broken bones (and has done) as its quite an insecure and power full layback so not good to mess up and the break is quite high up about the limit of non highball bouldering IMO

In reply to MJAngry:

Doesn't Monocle at Callerhues get F5 its E2 in some guides! I remember standing on those chicken heads for quite some time before topping out :/

In reply to girlymonkey:

A few people have muttered to me that although everyone talks a lot about the county soloing ethic at Bowden Doors, the reality is theres a lot more toprope ascents than people seem willing to admit because of the poor protection on some of the routes

In reply to pebbles:

I don't tend to see many top ropes when I visit. Which has been several times a year for the last couple of years,

In reply to girlymonkey:

suggest:
Second Staircase (D)
Castle Crack (HVD)
Flake Crack (S 4b)
Crab Wall (HS 4b)
Second Leaning Groove (VS 5a)
The Runnel (VS 5a)

beware:
Exhibition Crack (HS 4c)
Blocked Chimney Corner (HS 4c)
Triple Cracks (HS 4c)
Tiger's Wall (HVS 5a)
The Overhanging Crack (E2 5c)

generally the suggested grade on UCK is a better guide than the book.......

In reply to daWalt:
Exhibition crack is an interesting one. I think the only 4c part is lowish down (with gear I think) and not sustained, higher up its not harder than S/HS 4a/4b ish. I soloed it last time with mats and gibbered a bit higher up thinking it would be easier than it was after watching my friend easily down climb it without mats!

I think the grade is fair but if the crux was at the top instead it would probably be easyish VS.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I climbed Lorraine when VS was my top grade so it can't be that under graded, just on the stiff side surely?

In reply to girlymonkey:

The issue of Northumbrian 'sandbags' comes up quite often, along with a range of theories as to why the grades seem either 'out of whack' with elsewhere in the UK.

I've climbed in the County for over 45 years and have some insights that may explain, (but not excuse) the apparent grading anomalies that visitors encounter. I think some of the observations about the easier climbs are possibly due to being unfamiliar with the style of climbing best applied to the routes, some folks on their first encounter find it a bit insecure, the rock sandy, gear placements not so good and so on. It rewards a confident, athletic approach.

The first county wide formal guide published by the NMC IN 1950 doesn't, (I think) have any routes in it above VS. The hardest documented route probably being Rothley Crack which is now considered VS 5a. That for something that would have been a solo.

The next guide produced in 1971 had a good number of HVSs, many were short and hard - such as Thin Finger(hand)
Special at Kyloe in, and Austin's trio of climbs through the roofs at Back Bowden. Other longer HVSs were also established - Main Wall at Bowden, Coldstream Corner, Rock Island Line at Peel and so on. Many of these are now E1 E2 (Or harder). The point being that at that time the bar for grading a route VS, HVS or 'Extreme' had been set pretty high by the activists of the time.

When the Club published the green interim guide in 1976, it contained only one route graded Extreme, The Witch at Back Bowden. It also contained a number of HVSs by Bob Hutchinson and John Earl that have subsequently been upgraded, the most amusing probably being Australia Crack at Kyloe In, a rarely done E3/4 6b!

That Green Guide set the tone for future grading and just about everyone involved in new routing joined in the grading game less you be considered a wimp!

As folks have observed some crags seem more afflicted than others. Bowden in particular has always been a forcing ground, with many of the routes being established by good climbers, at the top of their game happy to solo at the heights involved. I would think that a number of routes through the wave at Bowden have seen single figure ascents in 30 years; Rough passage, The Wave, Narcosis etc - despite the advent of pads and none being harder than E6 - a modest grade by modern standards surely. (The reality is they are probably much harder...).

Subsequent developers, in cahoots with the guide writers never addressed the issue of grade compression because they were all used to the grades I suspect. So we are where we are now. Yes, depending on where you are from the grades may seem very tough. (and indeed some are).

There will probably be some adjustment in the next guide (when it is eventually produced). many of which will reflect the High/Sky ball nature of climbs and the use of pads. The big question is Lorraine...... it has been, variously been VS, or VS 5a, (I think if met on the second pitch of a lakes route - E2 5b..... But it's here not there or f5! The Voting consensus on here is that it is a low HVS.... Tigers Wall has lost it's lower protection placements and is certainly HVS now - that view is again reflected in the consensus grade here. There are many others which make for an interesting debate!

But I have to get my lunch.

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake:

Do you mean at the break? I still* thought there was a decent cam slot within reach to the left and a poorer cam in a pockety bit on the right. I wasn't 100% trusting of them but then I rarely am on sandstone.

*well, last september when I did it last.

edit: and even if you lose that gear then the bottom of the flake must surely be lower than the top of the flake on lorraine and you're in a more comfortable position to place it.

In reply to Lemony:
In my mind's eye the first gear worth placing on Tiger's Wall (at the base of the upper flake) is much higher than that on Lorraine.. I could be wrong though. Like you there's much I don't trust, and if I don't, then usually I wouldn't place it. I know where I am then.

I would never put any gear, nut or cam in the Lorraine flake, it will either not stop you hitting the ground, or break the flake, or both!

Steve

In reply to daWalt:

Second leaning groove really? climbed it the same day as tigers wall and its definitely harder, also thought tigers wall is fine at HVS.

In reply to SteveSBlake:

Sorry, by top of the flake I really meant the first break which I think's where I placed it - it's a few years since I've been on it though.

I don't know, for some reason those two routes have always seemed like a neat compare and contrast. On Tiger's wall I felt like it was bottom end 5a with positive hands and feet and easy to place gear once you're through the bulge which is at about 3m, Lorraine feels like fluffable 5b into a strenuous position to place gear at 4m and then an easier but still strenuous finish. Maybe I need to get back on it.

In reply to joem:
Second leaning groove feels more technically difficult to me than tiger's wall but only a bit and it's well protected if you hang around placing it. First leaning groove is another notch harder than either, 5b above the gear and probably 5c with the direct start.

In reply to SteveSBlake:


this must happen; there are a couple of wee chunks broken of the edge of the flake at about not much more than head height..............
seriously... it's just stoopid........
if you can make it to the top of the flake without stopping you probably shouldn't be on the thing in the first place.
(which is probably why I'd call it HVS).......

In reply to Lemony:

It was last summer when I climbed them so I may be miss remembering them/going well on steep climbing but for my memory second leaning grove felt about 5b where as the hard, 5a, moves on tigers wall were very low down on the slab before the bulge, id give the moves through the bulge 4c but they're bold and probably the part that warrant low end HVS.

On a side note I've always found that the VS 5a routes don't feel any safer/less sustained than the VS 4c routes, where as in the rest of the country you'd imagine that a VS 5a will have one 5a move of the ground or with gear above your waist. so I ended up working my way through the VS 4Cs before moving onto the 5as.

In reply to joem:

I think 2nd Leaning Groove is an excellent route; it's not a pushover, but it's got really good gear, a surprise ace pocket hold, and some good interest getting out into the top runnels.

not to be confused with 1st Leaning Groove

In reply to Lemony:

Placing gear on Tiger Wall and Lorraine? Are you mental!? They're much easier whilst soloed! No need to stop and faff.

In reply to French Erick:
come on! trad grades are for leading including all aspects of that including placing gear in pumpy situations

In reply to joem:


I didn't find any moves on 1LG worth 5b, but they're insecure feeling at the bottom and committing at the top. Tigers Wall slab's just straigtforward pulls on fairly small crimps isn't it? it probably wouldn't get font 4...

In reply to French Erick:

Who's awesome, you're awesome!

In reply to French Erick:

Many of the routes at Bowden are best done as highballs. Some folks think the climbs are all highballs, it depends how many mats you take I guess!

Callerhues is another crag where equipment has eventually caught up with the style. It's a premier highball venue.

Steve

In reply to Lemony:


I don't think I am. Neither do my friends and family as they never say it...so I'll take it. Ta much.
Seriously, I would find it hard to hang around and place gear at the start of Lorraine. Better go at a good pace in a safe manner to the top of the flake crack than place gear at the jugs.

SteveBlake: Surely, regardless of the advances of technology, or the access to mats, strategy should matter much more to a new comer to the area? I think that I have never led Lorraine... probably looked at it and thought "I can either layback up safely or I can't, and by the time I'm up it won't be worth carrying all the gear"

To all who have not done it and aren't just VS climbers, regardless on how you do it. This is a must-do climb. It truly is AWESOME. So are Tiger wall, and Canada Crack (?) which do stick in my mind as being of the same kilter.

In reply to French Erick:

Which is what everyone else has said, you said solo them. The average HVS leader isn't soloing 10m+ of largely 4c and 5a climbing.

In reply to Lemony:

Soloing is easier on these routes (placing gear high up still tires you out and the 5a bit is low down). Because of this it's maybe the sort of thing where the climbing feels VS to E leaders (who would solo) and HVS to VS leaders (who try and place gear and therefore find it desperate).

In reply to French Erick:

They are fantastic and perfectly formed, exactly... tactics dictate move quickly to the jugs, if you need gear at the start of Lorraine, then think again. On Tiger wall there is no gear until the upper flake as Steve points out, i think a guide book mentions gear in the overhang, wrong and misleading. I first did these back in the 90's as solo's, these days sometimes solo, sometimes with a rope, a couple of weeks ago on Tiger wall my other half failed at the overhang seconding below my gear in the flake, just as a soloist appeared retrieving my gear for me.

He had just soloed Overhanging crack! i find this quite impressive and also a little disturbing.

ON the VS routes having strange grades, i have always thought Banana wall being a bit of an anomily graded MVS 4b yet really bold, in reality a 4c start, then a bold 4b move with no gear for 10 metres , in reality a solo.

Delicatessan at Simonside is another oddball, the crux starts from a ledge about 10m above the ground, an exposed traverse and a 4c slab move with no gear, you really wouldn't want to fall off, it felt steady, but if you were a budding VS leader?

In reply to Andy Clarke1965:


Really? It's a solo yes but other than maybe getting off the deck there's not a hard move on it and it's all over once you reach the banana. I'd take HS...

In reply to Lemony:


Hmmmm.... I'm not sure I'd give it HS. Getting off the deck isn't trivial but can at least be protected. If you're tall enough to reach the good holds from the break then it's straightforward. However if you can't reach those holds it's pretty scary.

I'm only 5ft 2 and I had to be rescued from this as I refused to commit to the step up with 2 cams at my feet. I've since seconded it (taller partner romped up it) and it's okay but you don't get any gear until you're a long way up.

In reply to French Erick:

In your reply to me Erick, I'm not sure what you're getting at?

Steve

In reply to Lemony:

I think an important factor here, (and it's common elsewhere), is that the lower grades are often decided/determined by folks who were climbing E7 (or harder). They aren't well placed to judge the relative difficulty of climbs at VS and below!

I'm similarly suspicious of 8b boulderers gradings of anything less than 7b. :-0

Steve

In reply to Lemony:
My point is for somebody trying to push their grade it is bold, MVS would be safe, that easy move you refer to is 4b, to a novice it could be the living end.

In reply to SteveSBlake:


That may well be true, but the grades in the last NMC guide to Callerhues were just plain silly!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Chris, I believe they are largely the same as the guide that preceded them. The earlier guide (1979) was particularly tough....... You must have had quite a time checking them for your guide.

Steve

In reply to French Erick:


Aside from being "mental", there's lots of possible reasons a climber might have for being reluctant to solo climbs, or run them out from the ground. If you were a little less quick to pour scorn, and stop and thought for a moment, you might be able to imagine some of them for yourself.

In reply to bpmclimb:

Give him a break he was poking fun, besides he's French.

In reply to bpmclimb:

I don't think he's 'pouring scorn'. I think the point he is trying to make is that some of these climbs become more difficult if you seek to protect them. Often because the gear isn't that great, or is difficult to place....

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake:



I had a long day up there checking with Alan James and Colin Binks - both much better climbers than me. They did a whole bunch of the the routes without me telling them the grades, then we did some conferring - the ensuing conversations were interesting,

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

You're right Chris, we should have given them all Font grades.

In reply to SteveSBlake:

I'm not scornful as Steve rightly points out. We all have our fun the best we can. I think that there are climbs that are aspirational and then there are climbs you can push the grade on. If you want to truly succeed not just say i gave it a go than strategy will be important. Lorraine in my view is one such. To go back to the op there are well known sandbags. Sure we could decide to standardise everything... But it'd be so boring. There's info on such climbs they're often referred to as test pieces. Crags also have reputations. It's all about doing your research before you commit to climbing at the top of your grade. I don't want people to think I'm being patronising, this is the thought process I go through! But then I'm French aren't I?

In reply to CurlyStevo:


I rather feel you've missed the point of Northumberland climbing.

In reply to DaveHK:

plenty decent length routes (c15m) in Northumberland!

In reply to DaveHK:
Actually no, as mentioned I think the rock is in general better suited to bouldering. Soloing I'm not a big fan of unless it's very easy although i did solo a route one notch under my trad lead grade last year as a retro flash and a bunch of easier climbs.

However my point holds, trad adj grades are for the whole climb not for soloing something well below your limit that has gear!

In reply to DaveHK:

Serious question Dave, what do you think the point of Northumberland climbing is? And if not the point/ a point, what perhaps epitomises it for you?

Steve

In reply to CurlyStevo:


The argument is that the grade is for the easiest way of doing the route, and, for a lot of these routes, the easiest way is to solo them. Lorraine being a good example.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Surely it's physically easier to climb any route than hang around placing gear? A VS leader soloing 10+ metres of sustained 5a and 4c is likely to find it pretty trying.

In reply to Robert Durran:
I didn't need the point explaining to me (again) thanks as I fully understood it but disagreed with it. By this logic all your safe mid E Grade leads should be down graded by Alex Honnold as he would find them easier to solo than stop and place gear. Would that feel elitist to you? Well think about your position here.

The trad adjectival grade is not for the least physical effort its for the over all difficulty of leading the climb, this includes placing a reasonable amount of protection if its available.

I agree Lorraine is easier for most not to place gear until break at the top of the initial crack. However most people climbing VS would not find the climb overall easier including mental aspects to solo the entire thing. Sure it might be easier for someone who can climb much harder, but that is not the point.

In reply to SteveSBlake:


That rules me out, then.

In reply to girlymonkey:
Clearly the answer is to give the routes sport grades (as in DWS) if they are intended to be soloed
(or boulder grades if short enough)

Incidentally, I would strongly argue that a route that feels HVS to a HVS leader and HS to an E2 leader should be given HVS...

In reply to CurlyStevo:

It's interesting isn't it that that climb has always been 'VS'. I think first done in 1968, it would have been soloed. it's unusual that since then, it has by virtue of the gear you can now place, and despite improvements in footwear, seem to have got harder....

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake:
That's another discussion really but seen in the light of your post about grades its hardly surprising many climbs have been regraded to be in line with the rest of the country and many still need to be.

Scotland had a similar problem when the top grade was VS but England had adopted the E grade system. Its still an ongoing problem to readdress some of the grading issues that caused (and hence the presence still of some Scottish VS routes)

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Hmm, not many routes have been regraded actually, particularly in the lower grades which is what's driving the discussion! I think it's an issue for visitors more than locals who get used to them. It's a right of passage. That's not a reason for not reviewing them though.

You can't please everyone on though, or perhaps you can.... Lorraine 11m, a brilliant route. Depending on your age, ability equipment and balls. (VS 5a), (HVS 5b), (MVS 5a/b - with mat), (Highball f5+).

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake:
Fair enough I was just taking your examples of re-grading I personally don't have much knowledge of the historical grading of the County. I do like visiting though.

The rock is great, however for one reason or another it just doesn't particularly suit me for pushing my lead grade.

I think the best route for quality I've lead there is Marcher Lord which although tough for VS is superb.

In reply to SteveSBlake:

I'm taking HVS 5a Font5 P2.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

No, it appears to me you have misunderstood - these routes are easier for ANYONE to solo, probably particularly people without much in hand. If you are finding the moves hard, placing (dubious) gear in the Lorraine flake will be desperate.


No. That is not the logic. The argument appies specifically to short things like the Lorraine flake where you're not far above a good landing with a low risk of anything bad happening,.

You may disagree with the argument and the grade, but please try to understand it before playing the elitist card.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Robert it seems your confusion lays in you not reading my posts. There were two discussions going on in this thread. Soloing the entire route (Lorraine), or climbing to the top of the flake and placing gear.

I was never disputing that for a VS/HVS leader its easier to climb direct to the top of the flake to place the first gear. Although I do question if solid F5 bouldering should occur on a VS route (see bouldering guide the initial crack alone is F5).

However soloing the entire route, with more VS climbing to come would not overall feel easier for the average VS leader IMO (and may well result in serious injury). However it may feel overall easier for someone climbing much harder in general to solo the whole thing. Grades should not account for the less physical effort of soloing the entire route when you can climb much harder. They should reflect REASONABLY protecting the climb.

There is obviously cross over here between highball bouldering (lets say 5-8 metres for the average climber) / soloing, leading and leading with mats.

Personally I think a mat is a sound investment for trad climbing in the county. The grades do make a little more sense with them. Especially if your knees and ankles aren't what they used to be in your 20's.

In reply to SteveSBlake:

I wish we could get some better consistency in grade conversion. To me highball UK f5+ is E1 5c. On YMC or BMC grit grading highball f4+ is more like VS 5a... in Font highball f3+ is more like VS 5a.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I agree there is a massive difference between what is physically easier and what is adjectivally easier. Most VS leaders would place gear or reverse rather than commit to what is effectively an onsight solo. Its physically easier to climb unprotected E1 5a slabs than VS 5a jamming cracks.

In reply to Offwidth:

As a point of interest - seeing as the initial crack on Lorraine is F5 in the bouldering guide which seems consistent with other climbs in the area and there is a rest at the end of the traverse. F5+ would probably be consistent with other bouldering routes along the crag as a highball (but it is too high to be called a boulder problem including a highball for most)

In reply to CurlyStevo:

My knees weren't up to much even in my 20s. Bloody skiing.

In reply to Offwidth:

Agreed and as you infer - Many HVS climbers wouldn't go near the E1 5a and would probably enjoy the jamming crack. I've personally never wanted to do Sunset Slab at HVS 4b for that reason.

Perhaps when you've finished your low to mid grade grit route grade standardisation you could make some more trips up to Northumberland

In reply to CurlyStevo:
Clear cognitive dissonance on a line with a bouldering grade and a route grade can be hard to shift. If its F5 on the start of a route, it's UK tech 5b.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Yes. If the flake was the top half rather than the bottom half of the route, gear in it would be necessary to avoid bad consequences of a fall, so the adjectival grade would be higher because you'd have to stop and place it. As it stands with the flake at the bottom, protecting the top half is straightforward and it makes sense for someone not finding the climbing easy to do so.

For what it's worth, I think the flake is strenuous 5b (no idea about these new fangled foreign bouldering grades!)

In reply to Robert Durran:
If its strenous 5b its not VS. You don't need bouldering grades. Northern England say VS 5a and given what Chris said above I guess it must be 5a.

In reply to Robert Durran:


soloing carries higher risk - ergo the adjective grade should be increased accordingly

In reply to Robert Durran:

You don't seem to be considering that when placing the gear at the top of the flake you are in a very strenuous position for a VS and that's at the end of a F5 boulder problem.

In reply to Offwidth:


I agree. HVS 5b seems about right to me. If you stopped to place gear in the flake it would be a lot harder though (in the sense that many HVS climbers would fail to onsight it). A solid HVS climber should be ok onsighting it not placing gear in the flake, but to onsight it placing gear you'd probably need to be a solid E2 climber.


I know - I've survived 35 years of climbing without them

In reply to CurlyStevo:


If you say so (I've only ever soloed it and can't remember). In which case would you consider HVS fair? Or does it bump it up to E1?

In reply to Robert Durran:
not sure not been on the whole route at all recently as I've been suffering from injuries. I did boulder out part of the start last year and figured it had to be at least 5b / F5. I've done a reasonable amount of sport climbing around the 5b/5c level (6a/6a+ and a little above on occasion) and quite a lot of southern sandstone 5bs in the last few years to compare that with anyways.

Comparing that start and the position you are in placing the next gear, and then the moves up and across which could be the crux of a VS anyway. If you tried to standardise the grade with other areas it would probably be at least HVS 5b.

In reply to SteveSBlake:



Stunning but fragile rock (keep off it if at all wet) which requires a confident and sometime athletic approach. Not a place for pushing one's grade. A place to go and solo lots of routes in the same day well within one's grade...
I am actually really missing it since it has been quite a few years without climbing on it. I need a trip down to the County! Anyone up for it? I don't mind holding ropes, would bring a mat and probably would solo a few routes!

In reply to girlymonkey:

I remember topping out Don't let go not on purpose! I tried the bouldering start once and fell off after a good attempt.
Went back up with the full intention of jumping off at the top of the difficulties...looked down and decided it was way too high and continued to the top.
At the time I had made a tactical mistake and misjudged the height. The top out was sandy and a bit awkward and it could have gone wrong.
Still a very memorable climb!

In reply to French Erick:

I did that on Crunchie. Then got on it again and jumped off from the jug. The former was definitely the right decision, my whole body felt pretty crunchy afterwards.

In reply to Andy Clarke1965:


An example of dangerous grading. When I mentioned it many years ago, I was told by one of those involved in the last guide that there was a warning about it in the text - they then backtracked, because there isn't. A tough 4c start (these seem to be ignored in the grades which is arguably fair enough), followed by unprotected climbing with a crux high up where you'd hit the ground if you fluffed it. I'd give it MVS 4a as that would tell you what you were letting yourself in for. In the Peak it would be HVS 4b...

In reply to girlymonkey:

Being from Newcastle I grew up climbing in Northumberland (before pads). I was always quite suprised when we went to other areas like the lakes and realized I wouldn't have to risk broken ankles to do anything harder than E3! Those were all brilliant Bob Smith routes at Bowden but yeah I had a few visits to A and E whilst 'learning to rock climb.'

In reply to CurlyStevo:

It would be better to correlate the bouldering grade with the tech grade, not the adjectival. So forget it's 'VS' think 5a - - f5 or 5+ ish.......

Trying to correlate grades is a nightmare, Lakes 5b vs Peak, vs Wales etc. You might aspire to local consistency, but beyond that requires the wisdom of Solomon. Not least in dealing with the 'it's never Just VDiff!'

In reply to SteveSBlake:

A standard length f5 boulder problem is more like solid 5b or 5c than 5a IMO.

I know what you are saying but I think either way holds. It doesn't make sense to have a wide discrepancy between the font grade or tech grade and the adj grade. Having a font 5 sequence on a Severe for example(or a 5b move) to me is nonsense. As the adj grade is supposed to reflect the difficulty of the climb as a whole including all factors and represent the difficulty the average leader (that can climb that grade) would find the climb on lead.

At what point should it be acceptable to have a font 5 or a 5b move? Is it ok on a VS is the question. Well perhaps if it was a single 5b move off the deck with normal VS climbing above it would be ok. A proper font 5 sequence high up would typically be E1 IMO. On Lorraine its basically a f5 boulder problem start and not a one 5b move wonder, so I think that could be fair at HVS especially considering the gear placed on lead after the sequence is not in a rest full position.


Well I think we should first move to get rid of the climbs that are the wrong grade in the local sense and tend to grade them towards the UK norm. We can than slowly over time standardise the rest of the climbs. One thing with short climbs is they should be more stiffly graded anyway in terms of the adj grade much the same as sport climbs are so that should be considered.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

All of these responses have been interesting and helpful. But have pretty much centred on a couple of routes. It would be useful to broaden it out a bit.

So, which other routes and grades does the UK Massive find way out of kilter?

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake:
Can we do boulder problems? If so then Slapper at shaftoe has to be the softest 7a in the country.

I can't honestly think of many other routes though.


edit: wait, a couple I've done/redone recently. Plonka's only VD, Nut's Wall's only HS, Wilfred Prickles is HVS, Flake Crack's probably HS. That one right of Plonka with the creaky flake and the awesome thread's probably HVS for the short ans the gear's a pain to place and the start's nudging 5b.

In reply to Lemony:
Yep, problems as well. (I'll have to check it out quick)

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake:
Some more from my notes from a trip with our experienced on Peak and YMC grit guidebook work crew from Nottingham) ... most routes were fine or maybe just a bit hard for the grade:

Slight soft Touches (there are some!):

Flake Crack S 4a (Bowden)
Nuts Wall HS 4b (Corbys)
Scotsmans Way VS 4b

Sandbags:

Corbys

Mr Jones VS 4c!! (good, value for a diff... broken hold)
Crossover VS 4b
Gibbons Gambol E4 5c (a strong team had great fun)
Cake Walk VD 3c
Misunderstanding HS 4b

Bowden:

Deception Crack S 4a (1 and a bit stars at least)
Long John VS 5a

Kyloe in

Piccolo HS 4a
Primitive Crack S 4b
Fluted Crack HS 4c
Piano VS 4c

In reply to CurlyStevo:


After commenting before I realised I'd never done the S version, only the HVS direct, on which I thought the physical crux was the severe part. As such I think you're probably right about it being HS 5a. I think the direct's only VS though.

In reply to Offwidth:

Another soft touch at Corby's is Ranadon (more like E1).

At Bowden, Hanging Crack is HVS 5b IMO, despite some of the logbook comments!

In reply to SteveSBlake:


Bringing me back nicely to my Whanny's comment some time ago

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Oi. So far everyone's been very decent and only downgraded routes I've got round to doing!

In reply to Lemony:

Well it just goes to show how subjective this grading malarkey is, it certainly isn't a science!

Ranadon in my opinion is spot on grade wise, bold 5b climbing at the bottom then easier with gear, then the crux E2 5b bang on the money.

Wilfrid prickles is a strange one, soloed it a few years ago and thought goey for VS more like HVS, led it in the spring and thought it was still benchmark VS! go figure.

Shaftoe 7a's there are a plethora of soft touches - Slapper - suprising solution - incipient crack SS, are all ego boosting, lovely venue though.

In reply to SteveSBlake:

I think some of the observations about the easier climbs are possibly due to being unfamiliar with the style of climbing best applied to the routes, some folks on their first encounter find it a bit insecure, the rock sandy, gear placements not so good and so on.

I always find a similar thing when going back to Dartmoor Granite. It's that different to everything else I climb I always seem to need that extra bit of time to tune back in to how to climb it. Combine that with a given areas 'reputation' for grading and you could save yourself a lot of beating yourself up when you get spanked by something you think you should fly up. That's just part of what makes climbing great isn't it? When you come back better adjusted next time, the sense of achievement then is so much more.

In reply to D Berry:
There is always a little getting used to new rocktypes but softer sandstone is hardly uncommon and the rock is good and the gear should be as expected for the grade on easier climbs, unless the route is a sandbag or a style the climber is unused to (esp chimney and crack technique). I think most routes that get common complaints are probably wrongly graded. I often wonder if we should realign some of these grade standards for particular techniques for modern times as I watch good climbers faff. I go to the US and what would be old School UK VD chimney is often 5.6 or 5.7.. mind you their slabs and offwidths are graded hard. Being attuned to the rock reaps the opposite benefits at the higher grades (you could argue the grades are soft if you extrapolate your view).. plenty of sandstone aces have big numbers ticks they don't get on limestone.

British guidebooks are responding well... go to Font if you want to see stubborn sandstone grading generating ridiculous sandbags in the face of all evidence at the lowest grades. Defended by f7/8 climbers wittering about hidden technique on a pof polished slab with no holds that's f6A or more maquarading as f3A.

In reply to girlymonkey:

After I read through this thread I went back to my old guidebook (1979) and I've realised that none of the routes I did at Bowden or Kyloe in the early 80's got more than VS at the time and that included routes like Lorraine and Wilfred prickles. Climbed WP a few years ago and it still felt like a solid VS. We used to use exhibition crack as a warm up solo.

In reply to graeme jackson:

I mentioned to my OH that I thought Wilfred Prickles was HVS and she said "Nah, you were just shit that day."

Fair enough.

In reply to SteveSBlake:

At Bowden bouldering today, I'd add Scooped Wall, Childs Play, Lightbulb, His Eminance (start) and basically all the other overbrushed problems at that end to the soft touches list. So very sad.

I had a go at a couple of people for brushing unnecessarily today - was obviously in a grouchy mood.

In reply to Lemony:

I was there late afternoon - did we speak?

In reply to SteveSBlake:

We were walking out just as you got there. The whole afternoon in that sunshine was surprisingly draining...

Sorry, I should have said hello!

In reply to Lemony:

Never feel ashamed for defending the rock.

In reply to girlymonkey:

First leaning groove at Bowden is in my view a death route at HVS 5a. Almost no gear until very high up and sustained 5a/5b. I haven't seen many people leading it!
Aeolian wall at simonside is brilliant climbing but unprotected slab moves above a serious drop, likewise delicatessen which is lovely climbing but with no gear on the first slab, which is already above a 20 foot fall.

In reply to michaelb1:

Death route's a bit much, the crux is only at about 4 metres* and is (just about) protected by a good cam in the corner. There 3-4 unprotected 5a/b moves up to the first good hold (on the left) but I'm not sure there's enough to call it "sustained". After that there's gear but I've never bothered to place it.

* for me, stepping left off the flake using the crimps and getting into the good sidepull slot thing in the corner.

In reply to Lemony:
Broken ankles route maybe! I've had a couple of goes but find it hard and scary despite managing a few other routes ok at that grade. I see it actually gets climbed reasonably often which surprised me, quite a few seem to have had an exciting experience on it mind

In reply to michaelb1:
I really like it. I'd probably consider it top end-ish but definitely HVS compared to other routes in the county. For some reason it never feels like I might fall off the crux, it just flows nicely. It'd be uncomfortable to fall off after the crux though, you're right. A couple of pads and treating it as a highball with gear at the end if you want it would probably make more sense.

Unfortunately I do have a confession to make which is that I contrived to fall off the top of the flake once... I was explaining something to my second who was on their first outdoor session, gesticulated too enthusiastically and knocked myself off. It was pretty embarrassing all round, doubly so because I was explaining how soft the rock is and how you should try not to fall off onto gear...

In reply to Lemony:
Northumberland HVS then. I'll have another go with a big stack of pads and keep gesticulation to a minimum...

In reply to Offwidth:
I'm not surprised with the Long John grade you give (S 4c to VS 5a) classic sandbag that one.

If you haven't been berryhill is worth a visit. The rock is quite different. Its more orange and less rounded and compact with interesting features. Marcher Lord is Superb and VS / HVS border I think (get VS 5a)

There are atleast 2 VS's that are very soft and at least a grade out. Some of the easier climbs are nice also and not sandbags in the main.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

It would be useful if you were specific about the 'soft' VSs.........

Ta,

Steve