UKC

When belaying from the ground (or at a wall) often the belayer may not tie into the end of the rope but use a belay from a weight bag or ground belay directly to the belay loop on their harness. The belay plate is then also used directly from the belay loop. this is fine as the belay loop is strong and enclosed and able to take the 2 way pull easily and safely.
However my question is, what about doing this sort of belay on a DMM group/alpine harness where the single point tie in loop is not an enclosed loop but stitching to the waist belt completes the loop? Tieing or clipping a bottom belay into this loop would (if loaded) tend to put quite a sideways load on the stitching. This is not covered by the manufacturers instructions so what are peoples thought on this?

In reply to callwild:
"Tieing or clipping a bottom belay into this loop would (if loaded) tend to put quite a sideways load on the stitching"

Do you mean due to the tie in loop being horizontal, when a belay device is attached and then loaded it twists in to a vertical orientation? if so the only thing to note is you load the belay device on to the harness on the same side you are belaying from (ie. left handed).

These harnesses are super durable I wouldn't worry about damaging it from belaying.

Anyway don't take it from me, call DMM. They will be happy to answer any of your questions.

In reply to callwild:


I must admit, I haven't got past this bit yet.

Does the belayer tie into the end of a rope normally?

In reply to Oceanrower:


They do if they're multi-pitching, and that does get around the issue the OP is trying to raise since if you're tied in you can attach both ground anchor and belay device to the rope loop, partly isolating the belayer from the anchor-climber system.

However the OP is just missing the point that the stitching is an integral part of the harness and so is rated to >15kN. The 'sideways force' on the stitching where the tie-in loop meets the waist/leg loops is effectively the same as that applied to the stitching on the belay loop on a more standard design harness.

In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

I'll give you that. But I did include the "When belaying from the ground (or at a wall)" bit in the quote.

In reply to callwild:

It's normal practice at climbing centres with rental harnesses.

In reply to callwild:

As you say, not nice having two opposing loads in the tie in point, and more importantly nothing on this in the instructions.

Three options I would be happy with

Put a maillon in the tie in point and use this for both the belay plate krab and the ground anchor?
Tie the ground anchor to the back of the harness, depending on the weight difference of the climbers.
Larks foot the ground anchor sling through both the belay krab and the harness.

In reply to callwild:

Ok Thanks for the replies. This topic has been cause for a lot of discussion among some local instructors and everyone has a different opinion so was throwing it out to see if fresh ideas may help. Rick knows who I am, but for others I am a ABMG guide of 30 years standing and although I know what I would do and feel perfectly safe doing it I do not feel able to give a definitive answer that would satisfy everyone and a court of law (which we always have to be aware things may come down to in an accident).
In my own use I would be perfectly happy to use the belay loop in the same manner as a standard belay loop and clip both the bottom belay into it and the belay plate.
As both ModerateMatt and Ron Rees Davies have basically said these harnesses have been tested to >15KN and that includes the stitching. The harness is super durable and plenty strong enough to take the loads expected from even a load across the stitching in a bottom roping situation. As the harness is certified for lead climbing then in an awkward twisting fall there could be the situation when a leader fall load could twist and side load this stitching to far greater degree than the 2 way bottom roping load, so again I don't think this is a problem.
Rick, maillon is a good option but is extra equipment so not the first choice for a centre. Belaying to the back of the harness has been discarded as it can squeeze the belayer especially small children. Larks foot just adds more fuss around the belay krab and could twist and produce a sideload so I would avoid that.
Why complicate things in my mind. And in my opinion quite safe and strong enough to use for a 2 way pull.
However the problem comes when you ask the manufacturer, as it is not covered in the instructions.
I am led to believe that a phone call to DMM said not to do it as not covered by the instructions,

In reply to callwild:
Why not just tie into the end of the dead rope as you would in a trad context and clip both crabs into the resulting loop? You are also ready to swap straight from belaying to climbing.

In reply to callwild:

Two points occur to me, firstly these harnesses and harnesses of similar design have been around for decades and are frequently used in the manner you describe, as far as I know there has never been a problem with the stitching giving way, has anyone ever seen this issue? Secondly, even if the stitching at the waist belt gave way whilst belaying could it cause an accident, the only way the belay carabiner could become detached would be if both the waist belt and leg loop stitching gave way, even if the waist belt stitching gave way the belay loop runs behind it, so if being pulled upwards the belayer wouldn't be at any greater risk of being pulled off balance or inverted.

In reply to callwild:

My view is that the sideways load is only the component that exceeds the loaded applied by the belayer (i.e. the additional force applied by the weight bag). It is therefore a small force in the context of the intended use and strength of the harness. Use of a weight bag is also normal practice it is not therefore reasonably foreseeable that it would cause failure of the harness.

The instructions cover the intended operation of the harness: it is not reasonable that those instructions should cover every possible use or misuse of the harness, only that they should cover common usage that would fall outside the design parameters.

In reply to callwild:

think we are all in agreement and saying the same thing, but someone, from some centre, thought to get clarification from the manufacturer. Unfortunately whoever they spoke to wanted to play by the book and even thought it doesn't say don't do it this way it is not described as a possible method, so they were told not to do it. The centre is now unfortunately complicating things and banning a method which has be tried and tested and regarded as safe for years by all I know. In so doing they arec making it far more complicated.

In reply to callwild:
For sandbags equipped with full strength rope (like the ones in my local centre which do not come with krabs) you could get people to tie into those and belay off that rope loop.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Can you use the alternative method of a twist in the rope, rather than sandbags? Or does your centre not like that either? (I know some places do, others worry about their rope wear more than...customer safety?)