UKC

I've got dry skin. Sometimes holds (rock, wood and plastic) can feel like a bar of soap. After a particularly bad session on my wooden fingerboard and a good campus session at my local wall, I got thinking... Can you over come poor friction just by being stronger? My brain's logic suggests that even if you had the stregth to make your hand into a rigid claw, nothing is going to help it stick to a glass sloper but on the other hand, strong climbers seem to be able to hold onto nothing!

Anyone care to explain how strong climbers seem to get more from slopers?

Also, on a slight tangent... Is campus training less or more effective in poor conditions?

Seems to me that, in good conditions, I could do more/bigger moves before failure. In poor conditions I have to try harder to stick the moves but efforts seem to come to a premature end when a hand slips off a rung.

I'm wondering if the effects of campus board training could be better achieved by doing campus style moves on big jugs and train finger strength sepatately?
Or is there some sort of "more than the sum of it's parts" at play with the campusboard?

All thoughts around the subject welcome...

In reply to JLS:


I suspect stronger open hand strength, shoulders and core let you achieve a best position and hold it. You're more likely to slip off if you're fingers uncurl slightly, or your shoulders or core sag.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Sounds obvious, but still looks like magic to the weak.

vimeo.com/138516728 (note the dates)

Edit: I suppose the argument could be made that he simply has better technique, but I feel like his getting up pretty powerful stuff like Brad Pit, which most British boulderers require temperatures in the negatives to even stand a chance on, is a decent counter.

In reply to Droyd:

That is such a great video!

In reply to JLS:

Go and try and hang the 45s on a Beastmaker and unless you're pretty strong it will feel like friction makes it utterly impossible. If you train sloper strength for a few sessions it will start to feel like the friction's getting better but it's not, you're getting stronger.

In reply to JLS:
To quote Megos:

In reply to Lemony:

Beastmaker 45s are the perfect example of strength making a diffrence but I still don't understand what is mechanically diffrent and how the strength is being applied to the hold.

In reply to JLS:

Interesting questions.


I agree with 1poundsocks that a stronger core etc. is part of the reason. For example if you can keep hips in and your centre of gravity closer into the wall the sloper will be less of a sloper because the angle on which you're pulling is changed slightly. For a weaker climber who can't generate sufficient body tension, their hips will hang down vertically from the hold and it will thus be more slopey because of the changed direction of pull.

In general the stronger the rest of your body is the better able you'll be to maneuver it into the best position to use the sloper.



I would think it's less effective. You seem to be able to push yourself harder when you're not slipping off. This ties in with the Eva Lopez study that found bigger edges were better for training on than smaller edges. I think the bigger edge group added more weight but at the end of the training period they made more improvement than the smaller edge group, even on the smaller edge.



The primary aim of campusing is finger strength, the ability to quickly recruit a high percentage the forearm muscle fibres when you hit an edge. Wolfgang Gullich who created the first campus board was using it with just one or two fingers to train for Action Directe.

If you want to train pulling and lock off strength then the more usual ways would be to use a pull up bar, a bacher ladder or a peg board. Doing footless problems on a bouldering wall is another popular method.



So does Adam Ondra so you're in good company. In some bouldering comps when his skin is bad he's appeared with a little bowl of water to wet his fingers first, before chalking up and pulling on. I imagine there are other things you can do too to alleviate the problem.

In reply to JLS:

I guess it's the strength in not letting your body move out from under the hold if that makes sense?

So on the beastmaker 45s your palm is at a 135o angle to your fore arm. The reason you fall off is that your arm is going over that angle which reduces the force pushing your palm into the hold and thus reduces the friction. If you're strong you can keep your hand stuck near 135o and that keeps you on the hold.


Not sure that's correct but it's my best guess.

In reply to JLS:

Apply more directional pressure, increase friction?

In reply to JLS:

I felt sure this topic title was going to refer to friction - under the feet; for which the answer would be - yes - for certain moves / steepness.

In general, I wouldn't worry about what happens on your climbing wall - the real world is usually quite different. Focus on stamina training at home - without any risk to tendons - then enjoy working out limit sequences on real rock.

basic physics / mechanics . . .
Yes finger strength can compensate (somewhat) for lower friction in many gripping situations.

details . . .
a) rounded slopers are more horizontal at the top (closer to the wall) and move vertical farther out and down. So the more you can press with your tips and focus the contact high and close to the wall, the more the average _angle_ of the contact force (mainly from gravity) is perpendicular to its local patch of contact surface. Therefore the vector component which is in the "normal" direction for the surface (perpendicular) is larger (that's the component that increases friction), and the vector component of force which is parallel / tangential to the surface is smaller (that's the component that increase tendency to slip off).

b) On smaller edge holds with a flat top surface, the higher the "angle of attack" of the finger's tip link onto the hold, the closer the "effective center of contact" of the tip of the finger is to the wall behind the hold, and the farther it is from the outside edge of the hold. Torque moment is a product of force and distance, so higher angle of attack reduces the distance. Another way of seeing it is that you've got better "leverage" in your finger-contact on that edge-hold's top surface. Another way to see it is that your fingertip is more "on" the hold.

Sustaining a higher "angle of attack" with your fingertip requires holding the joints of your fingers in a vertically higher position. That takes strength -- finger strength. Also wrist flexion strength can help.

c) Irregular holds on outdoor rock -- For each special gripping situation, there are multi-finger configurations which produce more normal/perpendicular friction force and less tangential / parallel slipping force. Depends on _combinations_ of factors like described above. Finding and holding a better "more friction force / less slipping force" configuration usually requires more finger strength.

implications:
* building additional "raw" finger strength helps.
* But also need to spend time "playing" with the details of different configurations to find out what works for you.

Ken

In reply to stp: & other:

Thanks for all the replies guys, good stuff.

Stp: The one think I've got on Ondra is a better solution than a WTF bowl of water! I've got a Kalymnos sponge in a small dry bag, so can soften/ moisten my skin in much the same way you'd use a chalk ball to dry it.

In reply to LeeWood:


Heresy!

You've obviously not been watching the Cafe Kraft vids: 'There's no such thing as too much power' - Wolfgang Gullich.

In reply to JLS:

No doubt finger and wrist strength increase the frictional force by applying more and better-directed force to the hold. Wrist curls, which tire your forearms but do nothing for finger strength, might be helpful for full-hand sloping holds. But there is another strength/technique element that comes into play, which is getting really close to the rock.

If possible, you want to keep your body as low as possible on slopers to minimize the outward forces. But often you have to pull high on a sloping hold. Then what works is the combination of upper-body strength and technique needed to get your shoulder up against the sloper so that your body is not hanging back away from the wall.