UKC

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=649298

This thread surfaced the fact that cheap(er - they're still expensive) copies of Rockfax Chamonix were available from WH Smith.

I know, because I posted it (probably still on time machine if you're interested).

In the thread, Alan claims that the order will be cancelled as it's below cost.

My original post providing the link has been deleted. But the replies are still there (Ctrl F JJL), which tell the story.

Anyway, book arrived today from WHSmith (cost me £20.37, including post). They are now out of stock, so I guess the promotion got sold out.

So what gives, Alan?

Why delete my original post mentioning the offer? They are selling your book!
Or is the idea to get it listed on major booksellers, but reserve order fulfillment for full price channels?

Don't get me wrong - I'm one of the folk that would pay for access to this site - but this is suggestive of manipulation that I won't support.

J

In reply to JJL:

Did you know that if you are a book publisher and assign an ISBN to a book that it automatically gets listed on every single book sellers website automatically whether they have stock or want to sell it or not? If you make an order on any of those places you then get sent an order from the central distributor (sometimes Gardners in the UK) and you have to fulfill it asap. So the bit about wanting to advertise on all major bookstores you refer to happens whenever you register a book to Nielsen's database (who administer ISBN's), it happens automatically but doesn't mean it is actually in stock anywhere. I don't know anything about anything else you say but that particular part is not some imagined conspiracy!

In reply to IceKing:

Cool! But why delete my post?

In reply to JJL:

Search me, I've published books but have no idea about any of the rest of it!

In reply to JJL:
Out of interest, if £20 including postage (so about £18 for the book) is 'still expensive', how much would you say is a reasonable amount to pay for a high quality full colour 450 page guide book?

In reply to Misha:

Sounds reasonable to me.

In reply to JJL:

Hi

Your original post appears to be still there - http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=649298&v=1#x8387250
I don't think you ever posted a link. There is nothing showing in the admin log as having been removed from that thread and it isn't something I would have done anyway.

Your assumptions over the control we have over distributing our books are incorrect and IceKing's response is a good one. We distribute our books from two places - online and via the distributors Cordee. Since Cordee also do our online fulfilment, it is actually one place but we do have a different arrangement with them for those sales. We have no control over where books are listed.

Books from big sellers like WHSmith and Amazon go through a secondary distributor who is actually the place which holds stock. I don't even know where this is - I think it is Gardeners but I am not 100% sure. I have no communication with them since all their orders are managed by Cordee. They get their prices, as IceKing has pointed out, from the Neilsen database.

The Neilsen database had an incorrect price for the Chamonix guide earlier in the year which we changed in around July. This new price got updated on Amazon but it appears that WHSmith didn't hence they started offering the book based on the incorrect price for their pre-order offer.

When you pointed this out it was the first I knew about it. I contacted Cordee and they looked into it but were unable to do anything. Both Cordee and myself felt, as I stated, that WHSmith may well not have honoured the sale since it was likely that they were losing money on the deal. It appears that they did honour the deal for orders placed but have quickly removed the book from sale. So I guess you got lucky.

There are other places still offering the book at pretty low prices but, believe me, they don't actually have the book, they just order it if you order it. They may be operating off the incorrect price and they may or may not actually honour the sale.

I would prefer that people bought either direct from the Rockfax web site or from a specialist outdoor retailer. I realise that this may be a few pounds more expensive but, if you want our excellent outdoor shops to continue to stock a full range of international guidebooks (something which doesn't happen in most shops elsewhere in Europe), then we as climbers need to support them by buying books from them.

Alan

In reply to JJL:
It never ceases to amaze me that many climbers will think nothing of filling up the car for a weekend away, relish spending 3 figure sums on a jacket or rucksack, and spend a huge amount in the pub, but will baulk at paying cover price for the one item that means they can make the very most of that weekend away. People seem to expect information to be free, regardless of how much effort it takes to produce the information or how useful that information is and how much it helps in the inspiration, planning and execution of a good trip.

Rant over.
Diluted,

In reply to JJL:

what an oddly aggressive attack based on so little where a polite question first could have got the answer and cleared it up.

In reply to DerwentDiluted:

Yes, this mean attitude toward books and book buying is extraordinary. As if authors and publishers are some kind servile beings who should receive as little remuneration as possible. Most authors, myself included, have to sell about 150 books a week to earn a living wage.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:



I would prefer that people bought the local topo. I realise that this may be more difficult to obtain, cover a smaller area and be less 'glossy' than Rockfax, but if you want the excellent bolting and maintenance efforts to continue on European crags then we, as climbers, need to support the local equippers by buying their book.*

Neil

*Only applies to areas where bolting is funded through topo sales. Info readily available on the internet.

In reply to JJL:

Well this all makes you very silly.

In reply to nb:


You would? Why on earth haven't you said anything about this before?

In reply to planetmarshall:

Sorry Planet Marshall, I know I shouldn't The hypocrisy just overwhelmed me there for a moment.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

With climbing guidebooks it's even worse. Volunteers give huge amounts of time for free to provide climbing information used by all guidebooks (especially the definitives) to keep information current, help support access and other noble aims. Its plain stupid that some climbers consider £20 to £30 expensive for what they get.

In reply to nb: I buy both where I can, well worth it!

In reply to Stu Tyrrell:
Yeah, you often need a RF or other selective to navigate the comprehensives, particularly if they aren't as good in terms of presentation.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Spot on!

£25 or what ever it was for the Cham RF is fine. A few beers and a curry for hours of dreaming!! £10 for FIVA is a good dal too!

WVR

In reply to JJL:

Another for the 'pool room' of fond UKC memories. Goes alongside the Needlesports Portaledge and the Reach climbing wall staff complaint threads for OP making themselves look very silly! Anyone else got any more good examples?

In reply to JJL:

I'm very happy with my £34 Rockfax. It is gorgeous. This is coming from the guy who paid €34 for Aiguilles rouge 2- then €34 for Aiguilles rouge 1 and didn't use them on a single route because they were shit.


£34 doesn't get you very far in waterstones regardless of what you buy.

In reply to zimpara:


Hhahahaaha, best buy the English language version of the Rouge 1 & 2, its so much easier to comprehend as I discovered to my cost-))

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

My copy has also arrived, although in my case for the princely sum £19.54. (This was despite querying the price with the retailer before ordering.)

I am suitably impressed. Even a short look has been highly inspirational and I have been visiting the area for 15 years.

FWIW it will be joining 38 other Rockfax guidebooks currently on my bookcase, so Alan, I don't think you can get too upset that I am going to ignore the fact that you "would prefer that people bought either direct from the Rockfax web site or from a specialist outdoor retailer"

However, this wasn't always the case. It is only in recent years that the Rockfax pre-order offers seem IMO to have been poorer value. Back in 2003 with Western Grit, the pre-order offer (possibly in conjunction with Rock and Run IIRC?) was excellent and I was very happy to receive my signed copy straight off the press.

In reply to JJL:

Great post Alan.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:


I realise that people can buy their books from where ever they want - I am guilty of buying from Amazon rather than spending an extra 5 minutes searching and ordering from a web site closer to the actual manufacturer. We do receive less for books bought from Amazon etc. but not that much less. It is Amazon (or their like) themselves that are taking the big hit on offers like the one you benefitted from.

As long as people understand that we have no influence over these prices, they are unsustainable for the company offering them and are only offered to get you into their system, they don't have the book in stock (Amazon might actually) and it isn't worth any outdoor shop or even Rockfax offering comparable deals. There is no profiteering going on, there is simply no profit in retailing a Cham Rockfax for £19.54 in fact they will have lost money.


I think the deal with the 2003 Rockfax was a £10 voucher at Rock and Run. This was a good deal but I don't think we did that more than a couple of times. The standard discount has been between £4 and £5 off. The Chamonix Guide was the first time we have offered £9 off.

Alan