UKC

I often help with birthday parties for younger kids at a local climbing gym, but it can be difficult as often I'm the only belayer to a large group.

I have plenty of experience belaying single climbers on top rope using my Black Diamond ATC Guide, but I was curious about the prospect of belaying two people at once using an ATC (I don't own another belay device currently).
Is it possible? Is it a safe practice? I know the guide mode is set up for two climbers, but mine would be just using it from my belay loop.

If so, does anyone have any advice one the exact hand technique and placement for doing so? My thoughts would be to pull both ropes out at the same time, put them together and hold them while sliding up my braking hand on both before splitting them (one in each hand) again to take up more slack.

In reply to StrayState:
Possible: Yes
Safe: No.
Stupid: Yes.

James

In reply to StrayState:

I tend to play safe and use two ATCs. Much simpler.

In reply to StrayState:

I agree with James Mann. Do you work for the climbing wall? What do they say? What are their rules? I'd be amazed if they permitted it, and if they did and there was an accident I think they'd be in a spot of bother.

In reply to Fraser:


That would let you belay 4!

In reply to StrayState:

I did see an instructor doing this once ages ago (mid 90s I think)!

Not a good idea. What if one falls off and the other keeps climbing?

In reply to StrayState:
Possible - may be
Safe - no
Prison food if there's an accident - quite possibly. As a belayer, particularly for kids, you have a duty of care to follow safe procedures.

In reply to Misha:

It wouldn't be the food in prison that I might have the greatest fear of!

James

In reply to StrayState:

Thanks all, my initial thought was that there probably wasn't a safe way to do it, but thought I would pick the brains of those more experienced regardless.

In reply to DaveHK:


Using a Slave-ATC, can sometimes manage 8, but I need to really concentrate doing that.

In reply to Fraser:

Only 8? I've managed 12 before.

The key is to wait until the climber is a few meters clear of the ground then just tie the rope to a weight bag and move on to the next. Proper pants filler if they do fall mind.

Don't forget to come back and untie them at some point though, I once left my partner halfway up a wall overnight. You wouldn't believe how much he moaned.

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

You have to make sure the weight bags are heavy enough too. I've lost count of the number of times a bag has been catapulted up the wall after a fat kid has fallen, only to take out a swathe of others, who in turn catapult more bags up the wall. It's a real problem at kids' parties after they've all had too many cakes.

In reply to StrayState:

I'm puzzled as to how you are qualified to supervise a group of clients, yet need to ask the question?

In reply to john arran:

A bit like this?
http://www.physicsinfo.co.uk/?page=view&id=1578

In reply to StrayState:

If you are working for a wall you really need some more training.

If you are not working for a wall then they shouldn't let you sign in that many people.

The general practice if you want 2 people to climb at once in a large group is using a bell pull system (if you don't know what this is the time to learn is not with a group). Remember that if it all hits the fan you need to get the okay person down first.

In reply to Fredt:

Don't be puzzled. It's just a troll.

In reply to john arran:
It's an absolute nightmare. Doesn't do the weight bags any good being scuffed by the wall either.

Unbelievably my local wall has repeatedly turned down my suggestion for special extra heavy bags marked "fat bastard". To make matters worse Weight Watchers turned down the opportunity to make use of advertising space on said bags.

In reply to Murderous_Crow:

I really dislike it when people think they know what trolling is because they've seen the term used in popular media over the past few years. If you can't identify at a glance when a user is trolling you shouldn't try to call them out on it. It makes you look like a dumbass to those of us that can spot the difference.

In reply to Removed User:


Actually, the OP could well be proper troll, in the long-established sense of posting something deliberately contentious to get people to react (or take the bait, since it's derived from a fishing term of dragging bait along the bottom).

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

Talk about an unplanned bivi

In reply to StrayState:

on a similar but real note I was a t a wall this summer (not in UK) and a parent had belayed one of their kids up to the top - tied off the dead rope to their other kid - took them both off belay and let them see-saw while she enjoyed a nice brew in the other room... the kids were having fun but I did wonder what would happen if they both wanted to climb at the same time.

In reply to EddInaBox:


That's brilliant.

Cheers
Mark

In reply to Hardman:


Just tie the climbers ankles together like a 3 legged race, then they would fall off together.

In reply to Removed User:

WtF?

In reply to Removed User:

I'm pretty sure I don't know you. But chucking out presumptious insults is a d*ck move. Are you like that in real life?

The OP is highly likely to be a troll, in the commonly accepted meaning of the term. As CP points out.

Your post is also consistent with another, related definition of trolling: ‘being a prick on the internet, because you can’.

Cheers

Luke

In reply to StrayState:
If you want to be able to supervise two, assuming your local wall permits it (you'd have to discuss it with them as it's a group-instructor practice not an independent-climber one), could you not use a "bell ringing" arrangement with the young people belaying and you simply tailing the two ropes?

This is usual instructed-group practice at almost all commercial walls.

Belaying two on your own would seem to be unnecessarily risky and I can't see any wall permitting it.

In reply to Murderous_Crow:

Isn't there the you can only post once to be a troll? The OP resposted once the thread took off.

Juan

In reply to JuanTinco:

Causing a huge argument by only posting once wins maximum style points but it's not a hard and fast rule.

In reply to davidbeynon:

I think this needs a thread of itself to decide when maximum style points can be given.

I give this thread a 5/10 - with limited style points.

Juan

In reply to StrayState:

Seems a little odd to me.

Normal practice is something like 6 children, 2 climb, 2 belay with a gri-gri and 2 help the belayers pull the rope through - instructor backs up. And you attach the belaying kids to the wall or floor in case of weight differences.

In reply to StrayState:

There is a story... that once upon a time the (then) CEO of the BMC was caught by climbing wall staff belaying 2 people at once and told that it was against the rules, so he must stop. He responded by saying that since he was CEO of the BMC it was ultimately up to him what the rules were. The final outcome is not known...

In reply to JdotP:


That's not really correct on his part, each climbing center is free to make their own rules, the BMC rules have no legal standing and certainly any centre can place their own restrictions.

For example I went to one local center where they don't allow children under 14 to belay without backup, this sounds very restrictive to me but it's up to them to decide.

In reply to Hardman:


That sound a little old to be an instructor, I'd be worried about their memory.

In reply to StrayState:

just use two gri gris.. hand free no problems

In reply to Kemics:


On paper no, as Petzl will clearly state you have to control the dead end of the rope at all times....