UKC

Are deadmans useful?

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 HenryC 27 Oct 2016
Considering all types of winter climbing and alpinism are deadmans (or deadmen?) actually of any use? I am conscious that their use is limited in Scotland, however what about wider?

Cheers,
 d_b 27 Oct 2016
In reply to HenryC:

I find they are occasionally useful but most of the time end up as awkwardly shaped dead weight on my harness.

They aren't as easy as they look to place well.
 CurlyStevo 27 Oct 2016
In reply to HenryC:
I find they can save a lot of time late season climbing on hard snow when the other belays are likely to be buried. Typical conditions high up on the ben late season for example. Digging ice axe belays can be pretty slow in these conditions.

Sometimes they can be used as runners when digging through cornices though I rarely find this necessary or believe they would be good enough to work if needed in this scenario.

I haven't considered carrying one in the alps as light is normally right. But I can imagine if the ground is steep enough on hard neve to require belays with little chance of rock or ice gear then they could save a significant amount of time over digging out slots for buried axes.
Post edited at 10:17
In reply to HenryC:

For snow slopes I typically use a buried axe to belay which are totally bomber in good snow, but I never carry a deadman. I can see how they would be useful for an exit snow pitch with no gear. Placing one half way up the pitch could stop a monster fall onto the belay if the worst was to happen, although you also then have the faff and extra time on this terrain to then place it. Typically when you might need one though the climbing is easy. If your not totally confident on this terrain then it might be worth taking one, after all it's often the easy ground where the consequences of a fall/slip are most serious.
 CurlyStevo 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Martin McKenna - Rockfax:
I've used them after crux pitches on the ben when there isn't any other gear (as it was all buried). Its not that unusual in general for ice to top out on to a snow slope

I this is somewhat subjective also. If you are a grade III leader then you probably don't want to solo grade II ground and if there is a lot of it on neve with little in the way of belays then a deadman saves a lot of time. However if you are happy soloing grade II and III ground then the odd time you'd want to use them the time saving probably doesn't justify the weight penalty
Post edited at 10:45
 nniff 27 Oct 2016
In reply to HenryC:

Well, one of them did save my life in Scotland, so I do have a fondness for them. If there's lot's of snow around they're handy, especially if it's not that firm, and they make good runners below cornices
 CurlyStevo 27 Oct 2016
In reply to nniff:

They are quite unpredictable in soft snow though. For instance if they hit a hard snow layer a way down they can just slide along it.

How did it save your life niff?
 pass and peak 27 Oct 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Wish I'd brought mine along last March on the Ben in "Zero Gully", almost nothing after the first 3 pitches, I remember twice just going and going till the ropes came tight and just digging bucket and burying axes, would have been nice to place something not long after leaving the belay. Mind you that's the only time hence why I wasn't carrying it, you can always leave it in or tied to the sack!
 nniff 27 Oct 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Well, in essence someone soloing fell above me and slid down the gully (wearing a pair of nylon overtrousers). I was stood at the top of an ice bulge (none of these fancy instant ice screws then). He hit me and we fell in a tangle to the bottom of the pitch (100 feet) and landed in some soft snow, from which we then exited at speed heading off down Coire na Ciste, which was hard neve. At that point, my axe caught in a loop of rope that was attached to a deadman - why it was there I do not recall, but it stopped both of us with the most almightly wrench that nearly tore my arm out of its socket (one good reason for a wrist loop). We both lay there winded and honking for breath. Then we stood up, dusted ourselves off and declared the sport to be concluded for the day.
 Jim Walton 27 Oct 2016
In reply to HenryC:

They are very good at holding down planes onto snow when in the Arctic Convoys - i believe that this is what they were invented for.

My understanding, though I'm happy to be corrected, is that they are not designed for a dynamic/shock load. Due to the intricacies of plate angle, strop angle, snow layers etc etc being so specific the chances of getting these bang on for a dynamic load are relatively small. Direction of pull could differ considerably dependant on where you were when you fell. Also were you to fall right over the top of it and roll down over the top and considerably alter the compaction/condition of the snow in-front of the deadman then this could also have a detrimental effect on the holding strength of the Deadman.

The American's call them "Flukes" for good reason.

They are a rubbish shovel but can be used to good effect as a stand for your stove.
cb294 27 Oct 2016
In reply to HenryC:

I prefer snow stakes with a fixed steel wire clipped to one of the centre holes.

A good review of how various snow anchors perform under different setups can be found here

arc.lib.montana.edu/snow-science/objects/ISSW_O-061.pdf

Cheers,

CB
 daWalt 27 Oct 2016
In reply to Jim Walton:

> The American's call them "Flukes" for good reason.

that's just nautical terminology - as is "belay"
OP HenryC 27 Oct 2016
In reply to HenryC:

Quite the response. I see the point on long snow routes if one is not that confident and a good point about late season. I was wondering about further afield, whether they might have utility for pegging out tents on snowy ground, but assume snow stakes are better for this?
 Rich W Parker 27 Oct 2016
In reply to HenryC:

You can hold a sliding leader fall with a properly placed deadman no probs, very important to give a soft catch though i.e. bring the sliding climber to a halt gradually. Layers can cause failure, as mentioned. A plunged axe shaft might give an idea prior to placing.

If there was one place I was going to take a deadman it'd be Zero Gully!
 Jamie B 29 Oct 2016
In reply to HenryC:

I wouldn't write them off, but I've never taken one winter climbing. Mostly I've been able to find rock or ice belays, the small handful of occasions that I haven't has never seemed to justify the faff and clutter of carrying one - I've just buried my axes.

Deadmen are a faff to place and get snagged on everything, and are carried but rarely used. If I needed to bury something to belay, it seems daft to take something purely for that use when you have items that can do that as well as other things- bury axes or ruscac instead; clearly axes and rucsacs have other uses, deadmen are limited in use and should be renamed deadweight.

Their rare use doesn't justify them for me.
Post edited at 19:17
 george mc 31 Oct 2016
In reply to HenryC:

Some evidence re snow anchors. FWIW Dead men - when placed correctly are THE strongest snow anchor compared to axes and snow stakes.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38597470/SnowAnchorsMarch2012.pdf
 CurlyStevo 31 Oct 2016
In reply to george mc:

I certainly only take one when I think I'll use it, but in some conditions they can save a fair amount of faffing too
In reply to nniff:

That's a cool save.
 Euge 31 Oct 2016
In reply to HenryC:

I remember on the top of Good Friday Climb (Ben Nevis) placing a Deadman to protect the cornice.
A climber beside me wished he had one as he headed for the cornice...
That's good enough for me...

I always carry one unless I know the exit has no cornice

Euge
 Col Kingshott 31 Oct 2016
In reply to HenryC:
Ice axe belays for me, but it's a constant discussion point with some of the older guys I climb with. I've got a Deadman for sale on eBay if you want one though?

Col.
 niche 15 Nov 2016
In reply to HenryC:

They are ideal for Scottish condition. They are fast to place and extract, and in soft snow is the best anchor available- might be the only one. Even for mixed routes where a belay is generally taken on snow at start of route they are invaluable. Anyway, I always take one.
 top cat 16 Nov 2016
In reply to HenryC:

They are useless until you really need one, then they are a god send. I always carry one, don't use it much, but when I do........................it's a god send.
 timjones 16 Nov 2016
In reply to HenryC:

> Considering all types of winter climbing and alpinism are deadmans (or deadmen?) actually of any use? I am conscious that their use is limited in Scotland, however what about wider?

> Cheers,

I'd say that it s worth carrying one if your route is likely to top out on deep snow or involves long easy open snow slopes when I think my partner may need a belay for confidence.

I always carry them in the top of my pack rather than dangling off my harness, I've never felt the need to use a deadman in a situation where I can't slip my pack off to get it.
1
 Andy Nisbet 16 Nov 2016
In reply to HenryC:

It's 30 years since I last carried one, and I don't think I've ever placed one in earnest. There are other options which don't involve carrying extra weight (like buried axes done well).
 Aigen 16 Nov 2016
In reply to HenryC:

The only use I have found for one is putting your stove on when your cooking in snow. An ice axe is a better belay anchor than dragging a deadman around.
 galpinos 16 Nov 2016
In reply to Andy Nisbet:

What would you use, for example, having romped up a snow slope to a particularly tricky looking cornice? No rock gear is available, burying your axes doesn't seem great, would you just ruffle the beard and "man-up" or........?
 Andy Nisbet 16 Nov 2016
In reply to galpinos:

> What would you use, for example, having romped up a snow slope to a particularly tricky looking cornice? No rock gear is available, burying your axes doesn't seem great, would you just ruffle the beard and "man-up" or........?

I really wouldn't be there in deep soft snow, and otherwise buried axes should be fine. That's assuming I had climbed a route with a tricky cornice, which I would try hard to avoid.
 Tricadam 16 Nov 2016
In reply to Andy Nisbet:

And for the top-out there's the trusty snow bollard! Bomber (if dug competently...)
 top cat 16 Nov 2016
In reply to HenryC:

Burying axes for a belay is great. For a running belay, pretty naff, obviously. I rarely belay from a DM, but often use it as the runner below the top.
 rogerwebb 16 Nov 2016
In reply to Andy Nisbet
> It's 30 years since I last carried one,

You clearly don't do zero often enough!
 Andy Nisbet 16 Nov 2016
In reply to rogerwebb:

> You clearly don't do zero often enough!

Last time I just crossed my fingers and vowed never to do it again. I didn't think, "I should have carried a deadman and I'd have been fine".

 rogerwebb 16 Nov 2016
In reply to Andy Nisbet:

> "I should have carried a deadman and I'd have been fine".

Ah, but you would have been fine with three!

Last time I did it, a quarter of a century ago, we took two and some pegs, it felt safer than soloing a sensation assisted by Colin Grant's ability to place the odd knifeblade.

I don't feel a pressing need to do it again!

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