UKC

I've been trying recently to build my skills/knowledge base for abseiling. I do a fair amount of scrambling, and looking to do higher grades. Clearly having a good abseil in your armoury gives you a good option in terms of escape routes, as well as being recommended on some routes (e.g. Cullin Ridge traverse).

As part of my research, I cam across this, by Derek Bain of Glenmore Lodge. I must say at the outset that this is the clearest video I've found on the topic, and very helpful.

youtube.com/watch?v=SH1G5wUZg7o&

However, I have lots of questions, so was wondering what the 'hive mind' at UKC could do to answer them.

1 - The abseil rope is in contact with the tat. Obviously I get that in this situation, he's not using a karabiner as he couldn't retrieve it. But isn't there a risk of melting the rope through friction when pulling the rope through from below?

2 - How high is the risk of that tat being cut by the rock on which it's anchored?

3 If the above risk is low/minimal, would/could you just put your abseil rope around the anchor stone itself, thereby eliminating the need to lose any tat - you would just lower yourself off, and then pull through?

Any thoughts on these and anything else on the video?

Cheers

*now edit to include the link to the video!

In reply to HTPumlumon:
Got a link to it?

I always thought better to have rope-metal-rope for the reason you list, but Glenmore Lodge will definitely know best.

In answer to point 3 - it would almost certainly get jammed as you pull it through.

In reply to HTPumlumon:











Yeah, I'd use a carabiner in that situation. Any moving around on the ab rope running through a 6mm cord would make me cack myself, but I'm always nervous when abseiling anyway. Each to their own, and I'm sure he's done it millions of times like that, but it'd shit me up.

In reply to HTPumlumon:


You're more likely to melt through the tat because 1. your rope's moving and not getting rubbed at a fixed point and 2. the tat's likely to be thinner.

In reply to HTPumlumon:

1) The rope will melt the tat (or severely weaken it anyway), but crucially - only after he has finished abseiling and has started retrieving his rope. So he doesn't care anymore There is no dynamic friction on the tat during abseil, because the ropes are not moving.

2) The risk depends on the rock. A nice round rock - no real risk. A sharper rock - some risk, but can be minimized by padding with clumps of heather. A very sharp rock - you'd be best off not using it, or doubling up the tat.

3) You definitely could (and it is sometimes done), but the friction will be severe unless the rock is very smooth - you might get your rope snagged. Considering that you can get a few metres of tat for a few pound, it's just cheaper to leave the tat than to risk your rope becoming snagged (and it is quite a high risk). These types of abseil (with tat directly on the rock) are mostly used for emergencies (and I'm sure you'll be quite happy to spend £2 to escape during an emergency!), and as far as I know most higher grade scrambles in the UK don't require an abseil to descend - so it's not something you need to worry about losing money on (the petrol is the far bigger cost).

In reply to HTPumlumon:
Abbing straight off the Tat is pretty standard practice - especially when doing multiple abseils(i.e. doing alpine stuff) as otherwise you would quickly run out of carabineers. in a normal situation if the rope pulls fine there will not be much pressure on the tat from the rope and it should be fine - either way your not on the tat anymore so its not your problem (why you should always check pre-existing tat). However, I have heard of accidents where someone abseiling off tat cleaning a route has cut through it as they have have swung around on the rope causing it to move under pressure over the tat. As well as the safety considerations it is also a lot easy to pull around if its through a carabineer- I always carry a small maillion on the back of my harness for such events in the UK, in bigger mountain settings I don't.

Of course you could just put the rope around a rock spike as you say but this can very easily become stuck when you try to retrieve it.
Edit: SenzuBean beat me to it!

In reply to HTPumlumon:

I did loads of abseils directly off tat in my youth but would probably be inclined to leave a "bail biner" (horrible Americanism for an old Krab you relegated to the "sacrifice on an abseil" box) now.

In reply to galpinos:


I call mine a "leaver crab"

In reply to bpmclimb:

Leaver beiner!

In reply to HTPumlumon:
Good video. Nothing in it I would really teach differently.


The first thing it is worth saying is that there are very much two types of abseiling you may do mountaineering. This is probably the only thing that the video does not make clear.

1) Unplanned. This is exactly what the video shows. The key issue is the you DO NOT expect other parties to regularly need to abseil from the same point in the future. As such no consideration is needed to the future safety of what you leave behind.
2) Planned. You are invariably going to be abseiling in the same place as others have in the past and others will in the future. In this case it is good practice to rig the abseil anchor with (thicker) rope and leave metalwork (ideally a stainless steal ring, but commonly a maillion or karabiner) in place so it should be safe and secure for future parties. You should also remove or tidy up old slings, cord or rope rather than just add to whatever is already there.


Yes. But in an UNPLANNED scenario you don't expect anyone else to need to abseil in the same place in the near future so it's not an issue.


On most UK mountains the rocks are reasonably weathered and are unlikely to pose much of a risk, but you do need to check your anchor carefully.

If you think it's a risk, you haven't picked the right rock. In short, find another one that doesn't have as sharp edges.



You could do, although it is likely to be practicable in only a small fraction of situations. Even in a 'perfect' scenario with a smooth rounded boulder there will still be a very real risk of your expensive rope getting jammed and leaving you without a rope to deal with any future issues. Sacrificing a few metres of cheap cord is the tried and tested option.

HTH

In reply to HTPumlumon:

Thanks all for the responses - good solid advice. As with most things climbing it seems, again a balance between practicality and (bomb-proof) safety. I might look to invest in a maillot though to create a rope-metal-rope system (found one for £6).

Interestingly, I found another video (but can't re-find it now) which showed a method which you could retrieve your entire system by using two maillots, each attached to either end of an accessory rope for an anchor, and sending the ab rope through both maillots (so that when you pull the ab rope through from below, the anchor is basically broken), and then you retrieve the maillots and accessory rope with a long paracord (which you would have attached before descending). Of course that would require carrying X meteres of paracord with you, and you still have the risk that the anchor jamming when you pulled it down.

In reply to HTPumlumon:

You can probably find lighter screwgates for £6 and then they'd serve other purposes in your rack too.

In reply to HTPumlumon:


I've tried a retrievable ab with paracord before... It worked, but it was touch and go whether I'd have to climb back up to fetch the rope. This was on a smooth limestone slab as well (!). The rope went into a tiny patch of grass, and that was all the friction it took for the paracord to almost be unable to retrieve the rope. Paracord is so stretchy that it's extremely hard to apply any force through it to the other end of it. It seems great in theory, but in practice it'd probably fail as often as it worked.

Mostly people use 5mm cord for those kind of raps, which is far stiffer stuff and won't have you feeling like you're trying to tow a car with a rubber band.

In reply to HTPumlumon:

A little mallion rapide should cost about £2 or just used a snap gate thats past its best

My favourite bonkers abb retrieval technique is a hook at the end of the rope with an elastic loop also tied to hook and rope so when you unweight the rope it will simply spring off!

In reply to HTPumlumon:

'Tat' by definition is stuff not wanted for climbing any more. Tat is cheaper than a crab.

In reply to ebdon:

Personally I would never ab off a snap gate.

In reply to ebdon:


Screw that
That's almost as crazy as the bear grylls suicide(sheep shank with middle strand cut) knot method.

In reply to Wsdconst:

http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/Misc/MostMiscPages/MostMisc0640...

In reply to HTPumlumon:
The video covers a lot pre-step off on to the abseil, but nothing thereafter. The thereafter isn't just sliddy sliddy down the rope, it's look and look again, down, around, up and down all the time your abseiling.

The instructor in the video is dooing it subconciously but isn't conveying it to the camera. Once you have got better visual. Is this the best line, is it the right line, is it a good enough line, Have the ropes got down, if they haven't have they got to somewhere that can be the next stage. On the way down Are there sharp edges, loose blocks, rope gobbling cracks. When pulling the ropes will they blow in the wind, where will they fall, and which way, what might they catch on, what might they dislodge, what might the next person down dislodge. Will they pull, is it better to stop short.

Once down check you are still happy with where you are, is there room for the whole party, or can people move to safer ground, assess if you are at risk from loose stuff being knocked off from you're mates coming down after you, can you hide under a over hang or move to one side and provide a bottom belay.

When retrieving is it better to pull straight from the base, or can you walk away, up or sideways to get a cleaner pull to retrieve.

In a Uk situation on scrambling terrain if they don't make the bottom and a easy well worn walk off, you are probably about to go horribly wrong, and it would be best to reconsider, in a careful rather than panicked manner.

In reply to Wsdconst:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=400972
Just found this to prove I'm not making it up!

In reply to HTPumlumon:
1. The risk to your rope is tiny. It's in contact with the tat for a fraction of a second as you pull it through so heat transfer/friction damage to your rope is negligible. The tat, however, could theoretically suffer a bit more abrasion but the load on a pulled rope is virtually nothing, so the risk of damage to the tat is small.

2. There is a risk here, but it's your choice whether to accept the risk. Inspect the tat, inspect what it is tied to and decide if you are happy to abseil off it. If in doubt, back it up with something you are willing to trust and willing to abandon.

3. This will reduce the risk of tat failure leading to your squidgy demise. However, it will also increase the risk of your ropes getting stuck and you losing them. If the tat is acceptably good, or backed up with extra gear you've put in place, most would argue that there is no need to loop your rope around the Rock and risk getting them stuck.

Hope this helps

Mike.

Edit: weird forum glitch: for some reason I thought I was the first person to reply to The OP. Clearly not!

In reply to ebdon:

I'm much happier sacrificing a bit of gear to the climbing gods than trying anything that mental