UKC

Although the UKC list of tick-lists grows ever longer, I can't seem to find one made up of the old classics which started out as V.S.'s and have since been inflated to H.V.S.

How about a top 100; for those working on their transition from V.S. to H.V.S. ?

I guess a list like this should have some rules, so only those routes which have previously been described in a comprehensive guide as V.S. and are currently given H.V.S. in the latest comprehensive guide?

# 1 - Bob the Gob (VS 4c); now given H.V.S. 5a in the new Lancs guide: not a classic but worthwhile and good fodder for the short versus tall climbers debate.

In reply to Climbster:

Raven crag langdale

Holly Tree Direct (HVS 5a)

In reply to John Kelly:

Good one, did this last year and it deserves the grade.

In reply to Climbster:

I suspect if you have a sufficiently old Scottish guidebook, there will be quite a number...

T.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

Thanks for your input

In reply to Climbster:

I'll try and be more useful in the morning. But it does to a degree depend on how far back you look, and so you might want to put some determiners around that: changed between the last two guidebooks, or in the last twenty years.

T.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

IIRC
The Scots didn't subscribe to the open ended grading system and for many years max grade possible was fixed at vs
'scottish vs' was a euphemism for a sandbag

In reply to Climbster:

These may or may not count, but when I did Left Edge and Jonads Rib at Rivelin they both got VS and HVS in different guidebooks, but the books I had disagreed about which was which.

For the record they both get VS on UKC, and I thought they were both good quality high VS slab climbs.

In reply to Climbster:

Munich Climb (HVS 5a)
Twinkler (HVS 5a) (still gets VS here, but HVS in recent CC definitive)
Pinocchio (HVS 4c)

In reply to John Kelly:

Indeed. That was why I suggested that many such routes would have since been upgraded.

T.

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

Wonder what the most 'extreme' scottish 'vs' was ?- I'm not that up on scottish rock
When did they ditch that sporting grading system?
If the get independence will 'scottish VS' be reintroduced?

In reply to Climbster:


I could sell you one of my old Yorkshire Gritstone guidebooks if you're seriously planning on giving yourself a hard time.

In reply to davidbeynon:

These sound interesting.

In reply to The Ivanator:

It's coming along nicely; a good mix of styles, easier and harder routes, a few stars and some esoterica

In reply to Climbster:

Mars at swanage I think got vs originally.

Though I'm sure at some point vs was the highest grade, so anything hard at that point was vs.

In reply to Climbster:

Excalibur on Garbh Bheinn

Great climb at amenable HVS too

In reply to Climbster:

Mayday Cracks at Castle Rock of Triermain

In reply to Climbster:

Perhaps for your next list.....VS to E1......Rockfax Description for Saliva at Stanage.

A thin crack gains a committing traverse to finish steeply up the right-hand side of the arete. A dry-mouthed VS for many years! © Rockfax

Probably dozens in the Paul Nunn Peak guide I used when living in the Peak District....I seem to remember Windhover as VS in there?

Also memories of having a hard time on Crow's nest at Wilton one.

In reply to Climbster:

Was Whisky Wall at Almscliff ever VS?
We climbed it with a really old guidebook where it was HVS, got home and it was E3 on UKC!

In reply to Climbster:

I wonder what the most upgraded UK trad route is ever??

(Bet it was HS to about E1)
(OR bet it was a Brown or Whillans route)

In reply to Climbster:

The Great Prow, Bla Bheinn

In reply to abseil:

That'd be really interesting to know.

In reply to Climbster:

Original Route, Am Buachaille

In reply to abseil:




TD Gap was Diff and IIRC it's now considered HS?

In reply to abseil:

There are several old VD climbs that are now E1 but they tend to be about adjustments or less fashionable styles (ie offwidths like Hercules) . Proper sandbagging sport was usually much later. My guess for the peak is the old Severe rightwards traverse into Himmelswillen which is E3 6aish

In reply to Climbster:

The Thistle at Malham The Thistle (HVS 5b)

Once Severe, then VS, now HVS.

In reply to Climbster:

And wasn't Quad Crack at Attermire Quad Crack (E3 5c) an Allen Austin VS that now gets E3?

In reply to Trangia:
The longer north side of the TD gap is still HVD 4a in my opinion (I climbed it onsight in approach shoes, pretty much as a solo, with no feeling in my hands, I'm simply not good enough to do that with a HS).

Anyhow... Sunset Slab is a three star route for such a list.

In reply to Climbster:
A couple from The Lakes:
Dexterity on Grey Crag
Holly Tree Direct on Raven Crag Langdale

Dexterity (HVS 5a)
Holly Tree Direct (HVS 5a)

I was quite surprised to find that Dexter Wall didn't qualify.

In reply to Climbster:

Several from Tremadog:
Kestrel Crack, Nifl Heim, Merlin Direct, Y Broga, possibly Scratch Arete too.

In reply to abseil:


I just remembered Mediator (E1 5b) at Avon, I swear I remember it being HS, now it's E1.

In reply to Climbster:

A few more VS - HVSes from Swanage:
Ledgend Direct (HVS 5a)
Black Sunshine (HVS 5a)
Aventura (HVS 4c)
and at the Yat:
The Russian (HVS 5a) (now regarded as top end HVS)

In reply to Climbster:

Ravensheugh Crack (HVS 5a) was VS in older guides, I get the impression it's still a bastard at HVS!

In reply to Climbster:

Also interesting would be a list of routes that have gone the other way (once HVS, now VS) I suspect these may be a little more scarce as the general trend is for upward grade creep.
A couple of classics that do spring to mind in this category are
Lost Horizon (VS 5a) and Armorican (VS 4c)
Nor remotely in the same league quality wise, but another I know of is Bramble Whine (VS 4c)

In reply to The Ivanator:

Well Sin (VS 4c) is a classic. It was, of course, Exceptionally Severe when I did it with the old Graham West guidebook. Can't think why its settled at VS.......

In reply to abseil:



Well, my suggestion for this is Striker's Rib (E1 5c) which you won't be surprised to hear is located at Sandbag Central aka Gardom's Edge. I have a copy of the Chatsworth Gritstone guidebook of 1970 in which it is given V Diff, so your bet was nowhere near!

In reply to spenser:


This is a good example of Wilko's Iron Law of Upgrades, which states that when, after much pressure, a sandbag is finally upgraded, it is never upgraded enough, so remains a (admittedly less blatant) sandbag. Ivan's later comment about The Russian (HVS 5a) is another example. I've done easier and better protected E1s.

In reply to Rog Wilko:


Thanks for that, V. Diff to E1 5c is really something! Them V. Diff leaders in the old days wuz really tough.....

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Wow! I guess it was that old grade that got me up it, then. Happy with V. Diffs

In reply to Climbster:

Just taking a trip down memory lane with my first Roaches guide (1968). Called A Complete Guide price 7/6 (that's 37.5 pence in today's money).
All the following got VS (or less in the first case):
Bachelor's Buttress (HVS 4c)
Bengal Buttress (HVS 4c)
Valkyrie Direct (HVS 5b)Valkyrie Direct (HVS 5b)
Rhodren (HVS 5b)
Libra (HVS 4c)
Saul's Crack (HVS 5a)
En Rappel (HVS 5a)

Admittedly, some of these are rather obscure routes but there are a few stars amongst them

In reply to Climbster:

This is HVS in the 2016 guide.
Obituary Grooves (HVS 5a)

In reply to Climbster:




Just because something's been upgraded doesn't mean it's a soft touch at its new grade. (See Wilko's Iron Law of Upgrades)

In reply to Mark Bannan:


Complete with amenably terrifying traverse that's technically barely VS and you'd just walk across if it was straight above a grass terrace instead of almost gearless above a big roof!

Add Shergar on Black's Buttress at Polldubh (which I've also done) and Gob at Carnmore (which I haven't, but should surely be on this list).

In reply to petestack:

My comments are probably reflecting that I seconded this "amenable" pitch and led the technical but much better protected pitch below it!

Great lead from my mate Clare.

M

In reply to Climbster:
Some more three star classics that haven't been mentioned yet

Finale Groove (HVS 4c)
Quality Street (HVS 4c)
Skeleton Ridge (HVS 4c)
Great - Bow Combination (HVS 5a)
Sheaf (HVS 4c)
Mur y Niwl (VS 4c)
Harding's Super Direct Finish (HVS 5a)
Goliath's Groove (HVS 5a)
BAW's Crawl (HVS 5a)
Immaculate Slab (HVS 5a)

Although in a couple of cases the UKC database hasn't been updated to show the grades in the latest guide.

In reply to abseil:



Didn't Propeller Wall (Ilkley) get upgraded from VS to E5?

In reply to Climbster:

Pigott's Climb, Cloggy. The final 30 ft of the top pitch can be avoided by a 4c variation in a groove round to the right. The route would probably still qualify as HVS. The whole route has a lot of character, and feels bigger than it is.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

I meant Rowan Tree Groove (HVS 4c)
Holy Tree Direct already nominated.

In reply to Mark Bannan:



2012 blog post with some photos here:
http://www.petestack.com/blog/excalibur.html

There's one of Jamie having just led the first pitch, two of him following the traverse (where you can't see the roof below) and one showing another pair with the leader having dropped a rope from a belay above.

Great route!

In reply to spenser:


Yes I wouldn't argue with E1 5b, but the grade given fits in well with how the other stuff there is graded!

In reply to Harry Ellis:

Yes, I remember doing this in the wet a few years ago and it didn't feel overly generous at HVS.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


HVS really, I thought most of it Severe and only the first pitch as soft VS. But then something might have changed on it over time, holds breaking away, polish, gear placements trashed etc. since I did this over 40 yrs ago.

In reply to The Ivanator:

Good work, the Russian was a bit of a beast when I did it; scene of quite a few epics IIRC.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Well on the way to 100 now

In reply to Climbster:

Just remembered Cherry Bomb (VS 4c), another HVS in the new guide.

In reply to Climbster:

I make it 46 so far and I've tried not to include anything which is not V.S to H.V.S.; but the routes which have gone up massively, like propeller wall, might make a good list too.

Thanks all, keep 'em coming

In reply to abseil:


In the over the moors guide Front climb got upgraded from Vdiff to E5 6c and renamed Noe Picnic (2003) the guide book team being unconvinced the original line (climbed pre 1948) ever really existed and is probably pure friction/a joke unless there was a 1940s hobnail boot pioneer of rounded 6c finishes.

In reply to Climbster:
A few more to take you past the halfway to a hundred mark:

Aero (VS 5a) (gets HVS in new CC definitive)
Adam (VS 5a) (gets HVS in new Wired Lakes guide)
Rocking Chair (VS 4c) (Not sure where the HS on UKC comes from, but upgraded from VS in 1993 CC guide to HVS in 2010 CC guide)
Yob Route (HVS 5a)
Transcript Direct (E1 5b)

In reply to Climbster:

Another:

Toil and Trouble (VS 4c) (again HVS in recent CC guide)

In reply to Climbster:

I'm sure Tennis shoe direct on the slabs was VS when I did it. HVS on here now.

In reply to Sean Kelly:
Yes I've not done it (The Great Prow) yet myself, but did note the upgrade in the latest guide. From what you say though it sounds like a good one for the OP!

In reply to Climbster:

I'm sure that 'Gallop Step', HVS, was originally graded at HS.