UKC

Having had a few real fights with HVS now, as I'm sure most of you have.
Is it a viable tactic to skip it altogether and get on E1s rather?

How did you break into the grade? Do you climb with the attitude of, if I don't like it, I'll just bail? Or does this set you up for failure? (I've bailed off every HVS I've tried with that mindset)
And yet climbed 3 E1s with the attitude of 'I'm gonna really fight you for this ascent mr rock!

My partner and all his wisdom has mentioned skipping out hvs often enough, that and 'man up! Perhaps it's worth a try?

In reply to zimpara:

HVS is a grade that has some real b##tards amongs its ranks, there are E2s that I would rather do than say the Sloth or Flying Butress Direct. What do you mean by "fights" ?
Is it a lack of strength, technique or mental focus (gibbering)?

In reply to zimpara:

Well, do you want to be good at climbing or just be able to tell people, "I climb E1"?

Getting good at climbing involves mastering all the skills required to climb all different styles on all different rock types. Some styles and rock types will be your strengths, and some your weaknesses. Working the weaknesses is the key to glory.

(If you have all these alpine dreams, I reckon stick with it and master the techniques to get up HVS. You don't want to be three quarters of the way up a granite spire with clouds on the horizon and a F5 crack above without the skills to get up it because the ego couldn't handle the path to mastery. What routes have you failed on?)

In reply to muppetfilter:
I guess fights mean- I thought this would be easier, I can down climb so I will.

Perhaps being in a rather serious situation when I've not prepared mentally thinking, well it's only a grade harder than VS. This thinking has probably caught many people out...

So probably gib factor

In reply to zimpara:

You know you want to tick Goliath's Groove really! Or Jeepers Creepers ..

In reply to zimpara:

reading your comments on advice to others, a seasoned mountaineer / alpinist like yourself etc... I'm a little surprised you are bothering with anything under E3.

In reply to zimpara:

I know someone who decided to go straight from VS to E4. They were good climbers though, and already knew they could do it.

As for yourself, if you have the judgement to understand the consequences on trying your harder routes, why not ? On average E1s will be harder than HVSs of course.

In reply to zimpara:
On gritstone, there does seem to be a big difference in style between the two grades, which is of course illogical. There are loads of really hard cracks at HVS, and loads of really easy bold climbs at E1. For this reason, E1 on grit is very often easier that HVS (for someone who can climb above gear or even deal with a potential groundfall from delicate 5a ground).

So, there's no harm in doing lots of easy E1s before you've really got established at HVS.

However, if you just cherry pick routes to achieve the highest grade, you'll be a crap climber. Getting solid at HVS on grit on the other hand will be very rewarding. You'll do some really hard climbing that will be steep and require fitness; you'll do cracks and require all manner or jamming; there'll be bouldery routes that require hard, technical moves; and there'll be loads of normal, fun routes that aren't a harsh learning experience too (more so away from the grit on this one).

So unless you're just a grade chaser rather than a climber, why would you miss that out?

In reply to zimpara:

have you done Kipling Groove, The Hammer, Centurion, Diagonal....

In reply to zimpara:
It sounds to me like you need to get solid on the more tricky VS climbs that don't suit you style rather than jump to E1!

Next HVS you pick I suggest you go for something that looks like it would suit your style.

In reply to zimpara:

On the basis that you're genuine, having had a quick look at your logbook you don't seem to have developed a very solid base of experience. If you aspire to leading E1 you should be able to cruise any VS at any crag. Therefore you need to do lots more VS's on different rock types.

In reply to zimpara:


I did a couple of well-known soft touches like Kinght's Move (first one probably). Then I thought I could climb HVS and gibbered up a few proper ones, and failed on a few of the classics (like Bachelor's Left-hand (HVS 5b). Then I realised what a hard HVS was like and got on with nice normal ones and E1s. When I'd done a few E2s I went back for the classic HVSs I'd either failed on or avoided (Sloth, BLH, Hen Cloud classics, Suicide Wall Terrazza Crack, etc) and really enjoyed them. There are still a number of grit HVS I refuse to climb now...

In reply to zimpara:

I think you're approaching climbing with the wrong view on grades - and this isn't a dig at you personally.

Use grades to identify climbs that are beyond where you currently are technically and commitment wise. Everything else is in so pick those that appeal to you - that seduce you even! Some will be HVS, some will be vDiff, some will be E2 - it doesn't matter as long you're comfortable with attempting them.

Climb for the enjoyment not the grade!

In reply to zimpara:
Those really easy E1's often have the potential to really hurt you (or worse) if you fall of the hard bit.
Those dead 'ard HVS's don't.
Hence the grades they get.

I always used to break into grades on the easier, scarier stuff but now I'm a bit older, a bit more timid and a bit stronger I tend to go for the harder, safer stuff.

Basically 'horses for courses' but you haven't really cracked the grade until your cruising any style that gets thrown at you.

In reply to zimpara:
Just had a quick look at your logbook and of the E1's you've onsighted I really wouldn't argue with HVS for any of them.
Don't expect them all to be like that

In reply to zimpara:


The best solution to this is a change in mental attitude - be prepared to fight to get up it and fall off. Taken (m)any falls on trad?

In reply to deacondeacon:



Indeed - and since when was Looning the Tube E1 at all?!?!?!?!?!?!?! It's barely HVS.

In reply to ianstevens:

None, one doesn't fall on trad.

In reply to zimpara:

wrong answer

In reply to zimpara:

Were you not looking for seriously soft VS's last week? Seems a bit of a stretch to be considering E1 this week...

In reply to James Coulson:

More than a passing resemblance to DJ Viper, late of this parish....

At least DJ Viper had set his sights on Indian Face !

In reply to Steve Woollard:


Exactly. Don't be afraid of falling off, and try hard so that you end up doing some of it.

In reply to zimpara:

Forget about the numbers for a moment. There are some really great climbs at both grades. If you can stand below a route and feel confident that you can do it, and you're happy with the protection and just generally feel psyched for it, then get on it.

What you shouldn't do is get on a route that you don't feel psyched for just because there is a certain number attached to it.

In reply to zimpara:
Hi, HVS is an odd grade at times, and E1 can seem more level and honest in some ways (it's a historic curve ball of uk climbing), but the HVS grade has some awesome routes. Why would you want to miss out on these just for the self delusion of a grade? There will be E1 routes a brave VS leader would get up, possibly E2 if you want to take a punt on solo 5a slab climbing. My best onsight to date is E3, but I wouldn't describe myself as being solid much beyond HVS. In fact I have taken the opposite approach and spent the last couple of years doing anything and everything at HVS. Sure go do some E1 routes or harder, but don't fool yourself or discount some awsome routes.

In reply to zimpara:
The skill with falling off on trad is knowing when you can push it and take the fall and when you cant. On the right rock with the right gear theres nothing wrong with falling on trad. Some people dont want to and thats fine, but if you want to push youre grade you have to be prepared to fall.

In reply to zimpara:
According to your logbook, you don't have much mileage at HS/VS. If you want to succeed at higher grades, you'll need that mileage. Don't be looking for soft touches - look for the toughest routes at the grade you're trying to solidify at. If you can't do, or are terrified of all the tricky VS routes, you're not ready to solidify at HVS or skip to E1.

My other advice (learned the terrible hard way), is that the HVS grade is "double wide" (some could even say there's an E0 in there somewhere...). Bottom end HVS routes are a step up from VS - top end HVS routes, are two steps up from VS. To solidify at HVS you'll want to only worry about the lower end of the grade first, before going onto the higher end. That means picking your battles.

In reply to zimpara:

Spend the next 12 months on-sighting as many HVSs as possible throughout the country, but no harder.

Then move straight to E2...

In reply to zimpara:


I don't fall off trad routes a lot (1 or 2 proper falls per year usually) but you should be prepared to take (safe) falls if you want to improve. Taking a proper fall and being fine is a real buzz. But having a near-miss is scary, and hitting the ground hurts, so it's just about good judgement. "Never fall" is way over-cautious once you're competent at the basics and trying to climb harder routes.

In reply to zimpara:

Excuse my ignorance as I'm relatively new to outdoor climbing, but wouldn't the 'pyramid' model be relevant here? The gist being for every grade attempted at your top end, have a load of lower/onsight routes done as the foundation. Link tells it better: http://www.stevemaischtraining.com/using-a-route-pyramid-for-systematic-pro...

Also, couldn't you second loads of HVS routes before attempting to lead them/similar?

As a new climber, jumping grades feels like a death sentence and patience seems pretty important for trad progression, but I probably don't understand the motive here.

In reply to zimpara:

I've created a formula for this exact scenario. Please bare with me but one will explain.

Take X as the common denominator.

Take Y as the sum

Presuming E5 is the mean.

Take the following table as reference:

E5 E5
E4 E4 E4
E3 E3 E3 E3 E3 E3
E2 E2 E2 E2 E2 E2 E2 E2 E2 E2 E2 E2
E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1 E1
HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS HVS
VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS VS
HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HSHS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS HS
S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S S
VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF VDIFF

This method has been used for decades within the Russian weightlifting work. Put simply, it calculates with an error buffer of +- 5%, how many lifts would be required in any column, to enable the athlete to lift the top column (for two reps).

To summarise Zimpara, one would need to climb 92 VDIFF grade rock climbs, in order to climb two E5s

In reply to faffergotgunz:

At last some sense! I reckon I've climbed about 7ish E2s this year, does this mean I can trade them in for an E5?

In reply to Pete_Mosely:



That isn't strictly true. Very good climbers can jump multiple grades happily enough, but they are the minority. If you have to ask, you probably aren't one of them though.

Also, some 'hard' climbs are so well protected you really don't need a lot of experience to make them safe.

In reply to CurlyStevo:



Totally agree.


[To Zimpara]

Weren't you looking for an easy VS a week or so ago - or am I just dreaming (always a possibility as senility descends)?

Yes you can jump grades. I can think of a lady whom I'm told had never climbed harder trad than E2. Apparently she got on Right Wall and did it. Apart from being very talented, she did have a secret weapon in her husband (a regular contributor to these august forums) who would have been totally supportive and wouldn't have let her near it unless he was pretty confident she could do it safely.

So yes, you can jump grades. But... here's the downside. One day you'll end up on a route which ticks well-nigh very box you don't want ticking. You're hungover, maybe it's a sea-cliff, the crucial peg has just crumbled in your hand, there's a wet streak across the wall, the crux features exactly the kind of greasy sloper you loathe. If you come off, it's going to hurt, maybe a lot more than hurt.

When that day comes, will you be glad you skipped grades? No! Because what will stand you in best stead is the solid weight of all that effort you put in at each grade, the routes which suited you, the ones which didn't.

As Kris Kristofferson (sp?) said about Janis Joplin, "Was the going up worth the coming down?"

Mick

In reply to Jon Stewart:


I've so often regretted doing this. When I topped out on Left Wall on the Chromlech I remember thinking how much of a more enjoyable experience it would have been if it was at my limit. It was still a great route but not a memorable milestone route like it could have been. On the other hand I climbed Right Wall around the same time and I still get a buzz thinking about it now my memory for routes is awful but I can remember every move, gear placement and feeling all the way up that wall. For me those feelings of raw, nervous energy followed by success are what climbing is all about. The planets aligning to make this happen are so rare that I think we've got to give them as much chance as possible.

I suppose treading that fine line between just getting up something and failure is difficult and grades don't always help but when it works it's magic!

In reply to zimpara:



Depends what you mean by "break into the grade". Does that mean get up one route which happens to have been given that grade? Or consistently lead at that grade? Those are very different things. Arguably, by the latter definition, you've yet to achieve that at VS, never mind E1. Can you comfortably lead Freedom and Swallows Nest at Fly Wall, for example, feeling at all points within your comfort zone? Or Vanguard and Fibre at Wynd Cliff?

By all means try the occasional E1 (well-protected, soft touch and/or plays to your strengths), but I would not advise bypassing HVS.

In reply to SenzuBean:

I disagree with that, I can think of plenty of soft HVS routes that suit my style that I find much easier than some VS routes. Grades are subjective and there is no hard boundary between VS and HVS. Also most the grade tables put it no wider as a grade than VS or E1.

I think I know what you mean though HVS does tend to involve placing protection under duress and is much more likely to be pumpy and require proper moves above gear than VS. Once you've cracked that E1 isn't so much of a step up.

I would say however that HVS crack climbing does tend to be a bit stiff especially on grit and in most areas HVS 4c isn't a pumpy VS, its devoid of much gear where you need it.

In reply to zimpara:


I think an hvs can be quite a fight even after having done loads and loads of them. I failed on one the other day. Perhaps you have the wrong approach

In reply to zimpara:

Everything about this guy shouts troll. On another thread he's on about going for a 7b redpoint, a week after asking for soft VS's to tick.

In reply to deacondeacon:



Well put, totally agree. Those grit HVSs for me certainly *are* harder than the bottom-end E2s like Brown's Eliminate, Yosemite Wall, Pot Black, etc so I wasn't cruising them. I guess I could have done them as real by-the-skin-of-my-teeth experiences a bit earlier, but I've never been a huge fan of the exhausting gritstone thrash (although I appreciate that for a lot of people, the well-protected war of attrition is what climbing is all about).

In reply to Mick Ward:


Ah! They grow up so fast

In reply to thermal_t:

either that or he's a bit of a numpty

In reply to zimpara:

Why miss out on HVS. There are just too many fantastic climbs at this grade to miss!!!

In reply to CurlyStevo:


That goes without saying though. I have found some VS routes much harder than some HVS routes too - but can you really claim to be an HVS/E1 leader if you can't do some of the trickier VS routes? Personally I think not.


Then why was there an E0 debate? ( don't answer that or we'll derail the thread ) Anyway, it's what I've found to by my experience. It certainly helped me to break into HVS.



Of the two HVS 4cs I've done (both at Boulder Ruckle) I didn't find that at all. I will be wary in future!

In reply to zimpara:

Get straight onto E11, that will sort everything out.

In reply to aln:


Do this or else you're a peak grit Creton.

In reply to zimpara:

Sorry but this makes absolutely no sense at all. So I've failed pushing the boat out on a couple of E4s this year - should I just give up and try E5? Er, no.

In reply to zimpara:

From a quick glance at this thread (and your logbook) it looks like you have some consolidating to do across the lower grades; if you want to become a well-rounded climber and not just chase big numbers.

I try to do this by approaching any route I try with full commitment; without underestimating it, because it has a lower grade, or becoming too intimidated because it has a higher grade.

I've found that this mindset has helped me to build a solid base for the handful of harder things that I've done; but more importantly has also given me a huge amount of pleasure and variety in my climbing.

M

In reply to zimpara:
It depends on the climbing style and the gear. What kind of HVSs have you failed on and why? Old school grit cracks HVSs are certainly tough until you learn to jam. A slabby grit or slate E1 or a limestone face E1 might feel easier if it plays to your strengths.

However, ultimately you need depth of experience to progress. You also need to have a good understanding of what's safe relative to your ability.

In reply to zimpara:


What do you mean if you don't like it? Why not? If it turns out to be an awful route I suppose that might be reasonable. But if you stick to starred routes they should be OK and well worth finishing. Maybe you don't like it because you're finding it hard and the climb requires you to do something your not good at or comfortable with. In which case you should stick with it all the more because that's when you learn new techniques and are forced to push out of your comfort zone. That is how you improve.

As for missing out HVS and going straight on to E1, that's absurd. There are loads of brilliant HVS's that you shouldn't want to miss, and of course they're easier than the E1s.

In reply to zimpara:


Until you do. Which you will, unless you stick to very useful stuff. Then you will realise the importance of good gear and judging the route...

When breaking into a new grade, expect to fall off now and then. Unless of course it's a badly protected slab, in which case you shouldn't be on it unless you're fairly sure you won't fall off - which requires judgement and experience.

In reply to faffergotgunz:

I know that's a bit tongue in cheek but to climb E5 (or even E1), it's irrelevant how many V Diffs you've done because the gap is too great - so doing another 10 V Diffs won't E1 or E5 any easier. Also, you tend to progress quickly at the lower grades, so you'll probably do more VSs than V Diffs on your way to E1.

In reply to deacondeacon:



His logbook comments on Coral Seas at Harpur Hill suggest some epics may be in store on some of the peak E1's.

In reply to stp:



Your belief in the objective, cut-and-dried nature of trad climbing is far, far greater than mine.

It's pretty common to get on a route you "should" be able to do according to the grade and end up instead going "I don't like this, I'm sacking it off". Or it is for me, anyway. There are loads of reasons this can happen, e.g. it's a total sandbag and the HVS you've got on is hard, has crap gear and is really E2. This happens all the time. Or the route's dirty/damp. Or you change your mind - you thought you wanted to climb at your limit, but then when you get on the route, for whatever reasons (endogenous e.g. hangover/the fear strikes, or exogenous e.g. conditions) you realise that you're just not up for it and you want to do something easier. This isn't a mindset one aspires to, but it's realistic for many people - I know for a fact it isn't just me! Pretty much everyone I've ever climbed with has on at least one occasion talked about climbing a route at their limit in the pub the night before, then got to the crag and retreated into their comfort zone.


True.


Totally false! The top end of HVS is *drastically* harder than the bottom end of E1. This is the same with all grade boundaries, but especially so at the 'big' boundary of the extremes. There are loads of soft-touch E2s that are easier than sandbag HVSs.

In reply to SenzuBean:
Yeah Swanage certainly does have a load of well protected but pumpy hvs 4c. But most of them are really 5a IMO. The bulge on finale groove is 5a not 4c IMO. The start to aventura is clearly 5a not 4c and black sunshine should never have been upgraded from vs 4c IMO.

In reply to zimpara:
Why do you climb? To enjoy the moves or to get the log book ticks? If it is the latter I'd re-evaluate why you do it - no one really cares if you are VDiff bumbly or an E4 rock jock, and it's a good way of courting disaster as your desire to get a particular tick eclipses your good judgement. If it is the former then the whole technical grading debate about a particular route is an irrelevance once you use that information to form an opinion on whether it is doable for you safely or not, so just get out on some of the local climbs and enjoy - IIRC you are based South Wales-ish? I would think there is enough at Wintours/Shorncliff/Gower/Pembs to keep you happy for a lifetime without getting all hung up on whether you should be jumping on to E1s.

I'd recommend these ticklists if you need some inspiration http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=519 - Orange Spot Lower Wye, http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=965 - Orange Spot Gower, http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=1592 Orange Spot Pembroke, http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=52 100 Best VS, http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=381 50 Best HS.

Happy Climbing!

Edited to add: Wow all those ticklists are courtesy of the Ivanator, I didn't realise that till I checked the links worked, thanks for the hard work Ivanator!

In reply to CurlyStevo:


I felt the bulge on Finale Groove was soft 4c. I felt Aventura start was 4b (admittedly I started on the buttress to the left and traversed into the corner), but the roof crux was closer to 5a. Hehehe.

In reply to Bobling:

Nice to be appreciated! I think Zimpara has already subscribed to several of my Orange Spot lists and if they are worked through from the HSes upwards then upon completion should at least result in a well rounded Limestone HVS leader ...I'm hoping it works for me anyway!

In reply to faffergotgunz:

Did u your fingers get stuck to the keyboard inputting the HS's?

In reply to Jon Stewart:

The top end of HVS is *drastically* harder than the bottom end of E1. This is the same with all grade boundaries, but especially so at the 'big' boundary of the extremes. There are loads of soft-touch E2s that are easier than sandbag HVSs.


Agree with this entirely! I've puttered up hundreds of E1's and 2's but the hardest routes I have ever done are all HVS's and maybe even the odd VS......

In reply to zimpara:

Looking forward to the seriously soft E1 suggestions post next week

In reply to zimpara:

Btw are you the new replacement for an older ukc user called Mountain Spirit?

In reply to Mick Ward:
I suggest he goes straight to the slippers and horlicks and tells tall tales to similar folk.... oh and his slippers are sure to be the very best. If he is not someone winding us all up with an invented persona, climbing sure doesn't look like a sensible game from all his ego driven input here (logbooks, daft questions, odd advice etc). Mind you I know at least one person like this who went on to be an impressive climber.

For those who missed the logbook comment for Coral Seas (6a)

"Exceptionally scary! Never been so gripped in my entire life. Tricky slab, thuggy bulge, spicy run out onto a grass laiden sloppy ledge-mantle the ledge thinking, f*ck I'm going to die. I'm gonna fall and f*cking die and then I'll be f*cking dead. F*ck, f*ck, f*ck!"

In reply to alan moore:

Although that is true its not usually as much about bad grading as it used to be... some climbers just don't put the effort in to working their weaknesses. With all the brilliant modern gear and perfect indoor training facilities almost anyone keen and fit (with good access to outdoor climbing with similarly keen pals) should be getting up protectable Pembroke E1s in a year and as they try to break into E5 they will probably still get spanked on the genuine HVS sandbags like Masochism.

In reply to zimpara:

There's nothing extraordinary about HVS, if you're struggling on them then you need to put in the work and build your experience until you're not. Skipping grades to get on a route that excites you can get you up routes if you're typically climbing conservatively but it does tend to diminish your safety margins. Make a habit of it, especially with limited experience and it'll eventually go wrong.
jk

In reply to Offwidth:



Yeah OK, we're all capable of looking up Zimparas logbook. The responses to this thread are starting to get a bit distasteful and are edging into bullying territory IMHO. Plenty of dafter things have been posted on UKC and have not merited all this 'pointing and laughing' childishness.

In reply to zimpara:






I'd suggest that you avoid trying to climb a grade and focus on climbing great routes that you really want to do. You may be surprised how much harder you can climb when you're driven by the experience rather than a mere number.

In reply to planetmarshall:

You will, if you go back, see my defence of Mountain Spirit in such terms. He got loads of unfair flack on UKC.... particularly in terms of someone who was clearly vulnerable being accused of being invented or letting people down. The zimp is a very different character who needlessly sprays advice as if he really knows what he is talking about; all in contrast to these logbook posts (which he chooses to be public). Climbing is a risk sport and such people who continue to post authoritively from very limited experience, as he does, despite all the more gradually less gentle hints, needs calling out in case he inadvertantly hurts others.

In reply to zimpara:

Zimpara, Turkish for sandpaper or fabric (ated) abrasive http://www.koctas.com.tr/zimpara-ve-polisaj/.

In reply to zimpara:


It's not the 1930s.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


F*ck! Is that why I can't find reindeer fur lined boots and hemp ropes in the climbing shops anymore?

In reply to Scotch Bingington:


Tried Amazon?

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


Yes, but got lost and had to be rescued.

In reply to Offwidth:


Maybe so, I don't know him or indeed few others on this forum personally. What I do know is that he hasn't returned to this thread to defend himself. I'm all for robust challenges but if someone doesn't give as good as they get, continuing in this vein with mean spirited posts just looks like bullying to me.

In reply to planetmarshall:

He's given plenty in the past.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Therein lies the problem. If you don't like a route because you're having hard time then backing off on getting on something easier (regardless of what grade it's given) is not going to help you improve. If you don't like trying hard then progress in climbing is likely to plateau pretty quickly.

Granted you can have off days, a hangover, whatever, but I read Zimpara's question as about general stragegy rather than just for off days.

Aside from grade the other important thing is the style of climbing. Most people are better as some types of climbing than others. Boulder problem vs endurance, runout vs safe, roofs vs slab climbing etc. So someone strong in one style say slab but weak in another like roofs might well find an E1 slab easier than an HVS roof. If they want to progress their climbing they'd be much better off fighting their way up the HVS roof than they would cruising the E1 slab.

Of course there are still some anomalies and overgraded routes in guidebooks. If an E1 is easier than a similar style HVS then it's a mistake in the guide and should be considered HVS. One could go and seek out all the really soft touch grades in an area but really what's the point? You'll just be kidding yourself that you're better than you really are. If you reallly want to climb at the E1 level then find routes that considered really tough for the grade. That way they're unlikely to be downgraded and when you succeed you can be pretty sure that you've climbed E1.

In reply to DerwentDiluted:

Sloper was an abrasive but hard to grasp gritstone invention; banned still I presume. He is nothing like his UKC/B persona in real life, just a good climber with a warped sense of humour.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:


Yes .... gear may be better but compound fractures and gravity are the same.

In reply to zimpara:

I think the main issue with top end HVS is its when things get steep and sustained. That said climbing them technically correct is important, even if you boulder 6b/c you don't want to be doing that every move because you will likely burnout. HVS tends to provide a safer training ground on the steep 5b stuff than E1, so I would get them skills sorted before climbing E1 5b to often.

Also don't get to hung up on the grit, Joe and Don were machines.
Try some longer stuff in the pass and tremadog or maybe tick the HVS's on high tor and see how you fair to help build some variety in.

In reply to stp:
That's spot on, sacking off routes you 'should' be able to do isn't the way to go if you want to get solid at the grade and progress to the next grade. If conditions aren't right or motivation is low due to other things going on in life, that's one thing, but if you just don't like the look of a route, you're probably not really solid at the grade (unless it's a clear sandbag).

As for hard HVS being easier than easy E1, there will always be grade overlap because grades are subjective and because it's not just the technical or physical difficulty that drives the grade.

In reply to Misha:

This is why, despite ticking a number of routes at HVS this year, I don't claim to be a solid VS leader.

In reply to davidbeynon:


I'm always a bit baffled by the "claiming to be a 'X' leader". In what scenario do you proclaim this fact?

In reply to galpinos:
Well, generally I don't if I'm honest. I don't stand around in the pub talking grades if that's what you mean.

If, for example someone is looking for a partner to swing leads on a long multipitch VS I will look at the route and think about it before putting my hand up, while for an HS or below I pretty much know I will be able to take my turn.

If said hypothetical climbing partner is happy to lead pitches I can't then it's not an issue of course.

In reply to davidbeynon:

I had visions of you announcing it to all and sundry on arrival at the crag!

I have little opportunity to climb at the moment so when I do, it's with people i know well who, in turn, obviously are aware of my capabilities so there's no need for that kind of discussion.

In reply to galpinos:
Most of the time I do as well but it does come up occasionally.

In reply to zimpara:





Well you could, but you'll be missing out on an awful lot of rather wonderful routes.

You could also end up with a hole in your climbing skills, which sooner or later might bite you on the arse when you least expect it.

Houses built on firm foundations are usually better than houses that aren't.

Hahahaha! Loving the hate, always makes me laugh.

I feel partially to blaim for this one! Planted the seed in zim para when I relayed a couple of conversations I've had with climbers.

Their theory was, "HVS is a wide grade, sometimes unpredictable. Therefore it may be wise to skip to E1. At E1 you will be sure you know what you're in for."

That was his question.

If it helps easing the hate, I did gift him a T-shirt with that grit cretin picture on the front, as punishment for being a cyberbully

In reply to Oogachooga:
The same could be said of E1 or most grades in fact.

In reply to Oogachooga:

HVS may be a wide grade, but the majority of it is still below E1 !

In reply to zimpara:

Are we talking grit here?

Can I suggest Billingsgate (Millstone), The Vice and Kelly's Overhang (Stanage)?
They all used to be HVS, but have since been downgraded to E1, so may fit the bill nicely.

In reply to zimpara:

I'm wondering if I should skip diff and just get on to v diff

In reply to birdie num num:

Go on mate! Be a devil. You know it makes sense (even if it doesn't). Take a walk on the wild side...

And I'm sure Mrs Num Num knows just how to make it worth your while. It'll probably be those fetching pink rubber gloves, a bucket of KY jelly and xxx xxxx xxxx [far too shocking for a family forum].

Revel in your time!

Mick

In reply to stp:

I agree with pretty much all of that, as you can see from my first reply to the OP.

Where I differ is the idea that when you go out trad climbing and find yourself out of your depth on a route going "I don't like this, I want to come down" that the right thing to do is to look at the grade and say "well it's HVS, so I must carry on in order to improve my climbing". If it looks like it's all going tits up, then a good risk assessment is needed. Good gear and nowt hard to hit on the way down then sure, man up and carry on; but if the gear's not 100%, it's not clear what's coming up, and the moves are looking hard, for god's sake get out of there before you get hurt. On trad, (especially grit where the ground is close, and the grades often weird) my advice would be to consider carefully whether to push on or back off, when the feeling "I don't like this" strikes.

In reply to muppetfilter:


Indeed. I think we all agree it is advisable to avoid hitting the ground but he suggested that in trad climbing you must never fall.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Too many seem to say that carrying on in such (dangerous) situations is good. Its not. Those proposing such things seem to me to be muddling several ideas. Ascents in abject terror or dogging a safe route to death are both ill advised and won't lead to improvement. Pushing on with confident form and full awareness of how best to use the holds and protection is the 'Rock Warrior' way (from the book of that name). That takes training, mileage and patience (for the right routes when going well) when we are talking onsights.

In reply to Offwidth:


Sure, I spray a bit. I spray about what I do, what I would do, and what I WOULD comfortably do and what I want to do.

So if you think I may inadvertently hurt others,

By recommending

knotting a sling,

not reproofing a tent after it's been wet

taking microspikes to ben nevis in October as opposed to crampons,

using a ropeman to toprope solo

Recommend a ATC XP and a grigri for a 9mm single rope

Saying that mountaineering is not a straight cross over from hill walking, this is really serious, really dangerous stuff, the adjective danger can be overwhelming. Map Compass Headtorch . Take these.

train for mountaineering by carrying weight and adding incline.

When I recommend NOT taking a 300g down jacket AND a 600g down sleeping bag. for summer alpine.

I think you personally, just don't like me, Which is fine, but rather contrasting when as a matter of fact, you hijack and ask questions as a result of them. Well aren't you just the most well rounded Grit Crouton EVER!

In reply to zimpara:

Sometimes its best to say nothing and possibly be thought a fool, than to say something and prove it

In reply to zimpara:
You are clearly very enthusiastic about your climbing and your questions have led to some good discussions (both likeable traits in my view) so do yourself a favour on UKC... play the argument not the man and contextualise your advice with your experience (if the best climbers are usually modest with their advice, maybe there is a lesson there).

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Yes but that's unlikely to happen if it's a route which is at "a grade you should be able to do", unless it's a clear sandbag. Of course it depends what you mean by "a grade you should be able to do". Clearly that won't be your top grade and it might not even be the one below that. So for example my top grade is E5 but I won't get up every E5 and this year have given up on two E5s because I couldn't do them. I'd generally get up E4 but I'd say the grade "I should be able to do" is E3 and I haven't backed off one for years. It might be hard or the gear might be so-so but it's a grade I should be able to do and I haven't come across one I couldn't do for a while - that's not to say there aren't some where I've had to put up a bit of a battle!

In reply to planetmarshall:

>> f*ck I'm going to die. I'm gonna fall and f*cking die and then I'll be f*cking dead. F*ck, f*ck, f*ck!

Surely we've all thought that at some point.

Er, haven't we?

Well I have.

In reply to AlanLittle:

It's how you know you are having fun.

In reply to AlanLittle:

The trick is knowing when you just THINK youre going to die and actually KNOW that death is a distinct possibility!

In reply to AlanLittle:

I prefer just to whimper a bit....

In reply to zimpara:

Don't forget:

Someone's advice on another thread:

>> Climbing outdoor sports routes is a great way to push your grade up in safety before returning to harder trad routes.

And your reply:


Not to mention one or two "unsavoury" posts of yours that I'd prefer not to recycle.

In reply to AlanLittle:
Not on a 6a sport route...

In reply to Misha:

Northern 6a, lets not be disingenuous to 6a leaders now.

In reply to Misha:


We're at cross-purposes here, since I used the phrase "should be able to do" ambiguously. I talking more about climbing at/around your top grade (in the context of the thread, HVS for the OP) rather than at the grade you reckon you're solid at.

When you're at/around your top grade, it's likely you'll encounter the feeling of "I don't like this, I want to sack it off", and I think when that happens, you should look carefully at the consequences of carrying on and the pros and cons of backing off and trying again another day.

I agree, in theory at least, with the personal rule of always going back to routes you've failed on: what is started must be finished, even if it takes another visit. If you're constantly getting half way (or less!) up routes before falling, down-climbing, or lowering, without any real commitment to finish them, then you become a very annoying climbing partner!

In reply to birdie num num:


I think I should skip v diff and just get on diff.

Lack of ambition thats me.

In reply to zimpara:
I haven't done that particular route but regardless of whether it's F6a or F6b, it's still a sport route, nor does Harpur Hill have a reputation for badly bolted routes, so why on earth would you say it's scary and think you might die? If you're saying that on a sport route, you shouldn't even be thinking about E1.

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Fair enough for routes at or close to your limit. At the end of the day, pushing the boat out on trad requires judgment. If someone is asking can I just skip grade X and get on grade X+1, it suggests they lack that judgement and probably shouldn't do it. There's nothing wrong with getting on grade X+1 if you choose the right routes. The real question is what are some good, safe routes at grade X+1 to try in a certain area. A question which gets asked fairly often on this forum and which generally gets helpful responses.

In reply to Misha:


A question which gets asked fairly often on this forum and which generally gets barking mad responses completely ignoring the criteria...

In reply to zimpara:

This is a silly thread. I claim my £5.

In reply to Misha:

Actually what gets asked most often is for "low in the grade x+1" and the responses most often comes back with "try this route, its only x climbing but a bit run out". So not really helpful !

In reply to zimpara:

Was on a semi death route at Curbar yesterday.Hard to place gear,poor footholds,semi offwidth.Put in side gear and placed a few mediocre cams.Better ones were available but were hidden from the leader.My partner,who has led Goliath and Ramshaw Crack,followed me and said that she might have backed off it.Grade? Hard severe,4b.

In reply to paul mitchell:
Come on name and shame the route... I checked everything on Curbar sub-extreme several times and I failed to second both Goliath and Ramshaw Crack.

In reply to paul mitchell:

Sounds like a candidate for the Sandbag thread

In reply to Woolly:
It does if its true, so lets wait to see what the route is and if its changed recently (broken holds etc). There are numerous awkward HS 4b climbs on current BMC grades at Curbar that are nearly VS (or in some cases certainly VS if you lack big cams) like Wall Corner, Mowgli, Gladiator Buttress, Keeper's Crack, Polar Crack, The Pugilist; yet nothing I'm aware of even vaguely approaching the difficulties on Goliath or Ramshaw Crack. Given the efforts we made in the team the Froggatt guide should be the most sandbag free at these bumbly grades ever.

In reply to Offwidth:

diamond crack and he means froggatt?

In reply to La benya:

It could be.... except Diamond Crack isn't an offwidth and has great footholds and gear (it's a massive crack).

So maybe not?

In reply to Offwidth:

Sounds like it's made up to me.....

In reply to galpinos:

one mans good footholds and easy gear is another mans epic (i'm not trying to insinuate Paul's a punter!)

In reply to La benya:


Take a look at the first ascent lists in some of your peak guide books.........

In reply to galpinos:

... that's why i wasn't trying to insinuate it....

In reply to galpinos:

Except it's Mitch... he may be using an old guidebook or maybe a route has changed character... its worth checking out whatever.

In reply to Offwidth:
I think Mitch is just saying this for dramatic effect to make the point that there can be badly protected routes at any grade. I gather that it was indeed HS, not some hideous sandbag which should have been E something.

In reply to faffergotgunz:

How I wish 1RM calculators worked for rock climbing

In reply to muppetfilter:


While I agree with the sentiment that there are some bloody hard HVS climbs (Hen Cloud Eliminate (HVS 5b) (which I see has now been regraded E1), The Sloth isn't one of them.

In reply to Offwidth:

It might not be the route in question, but I had a scary and gear-less time on the upper section of Ling Wall, in the BMC guide as VS 5a (with the easier start). Felt dangerous for VS 5a.

In reply to Capricorn One:

I'll look look at that again sometime as well. The upper section follows a crack so I'm puzzled that it is gearless (we normally make a note of blind cracks that lure you in to disappoint).