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So last night was the first time I went to a wall in probably 2 years, and it's the first time I've seriously considered training in most likely 6 years. In the mean time I've just been climbing and can climb 6b or HVS pretty consitently. But this year I'd like to get to 7a consistently, 7a+ redpoint and 7b on abloody good day.
So last night and I think for the next month I need to rebuild my base strength, so we did a pyramid session. We did 16 routes, all on sight with no beta and I reached 6b+, maybe 6c, not sure as it was a "core" route at redpoint so ungraded. I did a bunch to warm up then did 3 6a's, 2 6a+'s a 6b then the core route which absolutely smashed my arms but I onsighted but only just, then failed 2/3 height on a 6b+ then dropedto 6b and did a route then 3 6a+'s before failing on the last, then down to 6a's to finish. I feel a bit broken and stretched this morning but not so bad I can't lift my arms. I felt good about the session and I'm further on from where I thought I might be.
So for the next 4 weeks I thought I'd carry on with a session midweek of pyramids and a day at the weekend if I get the chance, failing that if the weather is too miserable maybe I'll go indoors again at the weekend if family duties permit. So to keep the interest up, what schemes do you employ to punish yourself in a fairly systematic way. I have to add I don't do the gym, can't stand it, but will probably start doing pilates with the missus as shes about to start training as an instructor. Do you have any fun regimes which make training more sustainable? My pyramid rules are that I keep adding a grade every one to two routes starting from 4 until I fail catastrophically at a route grade twice and then come back down until time expires or I'm just to smashed. Also we employ a no takes rules so you just have to keep burning till you die. It's kind of fun and keeps the psyche up and makes you want it a bit more. So come on - tell me how to destroy myself...
So last night and I think for the next month I need to rebuild my base strength, so we did a pyramid session. We did 16 routes, all on sight with no beta and I reached 6b+, maybe 6c, not sure as it was a "core" route at redpoint so ungraded. I did a bunch to warm up then did 3 6a's, 2 6a+'s a 6b then the core route which absolutely smashed my arms but I onsighted but only just, then failed 2/3 height on a 6b+ then dropedto 6b and did a route then 3 6a+'s before failing on the last, then down to 6a's to finish. I feel a bit broken and stretched this morning but not so bad I can't lift my arms. I felt good about the session and I'm further on from where I thought I might be.
So for the next 4 weeks I thought I'd carry on with a session midweek of pyramids and a day at the weekend if I get the chance, failing that if the weather is too miserable maybe I'll go indoors again at the weekend if family duties permit. So to keep the interest up, what schemes do you employ to punish yourself in a fairly systematic way. I have to add I don't do the gym, can't stand it, but will probably start doing pilates with the missus as shes about to start training as an instructor. Do you have any fun regimes which make training more sustainable? My pyramid rules are that I keep adding a grade every one to two routes starting from 4 until I fail catastrophically at a route grade twice and then come back down until time expires or I'm just to smashed. Also we employ a no takes rules so you just have to keep burning till you die. It's kind of fun and keeps the psyche up and makes you want it a bit more. So come on - tell me how to destroy myself...
In reply to beardy mike:
Also looking to be in a similar place after this winter, and trying to set up some sort of plan. Are you doing the pyramids with no rests in between routes, and one climber does his entire pyramid at once? Or are you 'swinging leads' as it were?
Also looking to be in a similar place after this winter, and trying to set up some sort of plan. Are you doing the pyramids with no rests in between routes, and one climber does his entire pyramid at once? Or are you 'swinging leads' as it were?
In reply to beardy mike:
Sounds fairly reasonable. A couple of observations -
* You're training to failure. While opinion is divided on whether this is beneficial ( and I can't find any references re climbing training ), on routes, this is mostly going to be taxing your anaerobic endurance (I believe). Nothing wrong with that, but there are other energy systems involved in climbing you may want to spend time on - particularly if we're talking about Alpine routes or Winter climbing.
* The one undeniable principle of training that no one argues about, is the need for Progressive Overload. That is, you need to increase the muscular stress each time you exercise to continue getting a training effect. You may well get this just from adding levels to your pyramid - but you could also consider increasing the volume, eg number or length of routes, or reducing the rest interval.
> So for the next 4 weeks I thought I'd carry on with a session midweek of pyramids and a day at the weekend if I get the chance, failing that if the weather is too miserable maybe I'll go indoors again at the weekend if family duties permit. So to keep the interest up, what schemes do you employ to punish yourself in a fairly systematic way....My pyramid rules are that I keep adding a grade every one to two routes starting from 4 until I fail catastrophically at a route grade twice and then come back down until time expires or I'm just to smashed.
Sounds fairly reasonable. A couple of observations -
* You're training to failure. While opinion is divided on whether this is beneficial ( and I can't find any references re climbing training ), on routes, this is mostly going to be taxing your anaerobic endurance (I believe). Nothing wrong with that, but there are other energy systems involved in climbing you may want to spend time on - particularly if we're talking about Alpine routes or Winter climbing.
* The one undeniable principle of training that no one argues about, is the need for Progressive Overload. That is, you need to increase the muscular stress each time you exercise to continue getting a training effect. You may well get this just from adding levels to your pyramid - but you could also consider increasing the volume, eg number or length of routes, or reducing the rest interval.
2
In reply to james.slater:
Basically we each do a route, i.e. you get a rest between routes. I think doing one after the other it would become too intense and you'd burn out a lot faster. And to be fair, it simulates real life! I know if I tried 16 routes one after the other the belayer would get bored and when we switched I'd get bored!
Basically we each do a route, i.e. you get a rest between routes. I think doing one after the other it would become too intense and you'd burn out a lot faster. And to be fair, it simulates real life! I know if I tried 16 routes one after the other the belayer would get bored and when we switched I'd get bored!
1
In reply to planetmarshall:
Yeah, I know the failure thing is not always positive. I suspect I'll most likely try to do a whole round of one particular core route circuit ie routes in a grade band - maybe I should do that next week. But I suspect it will have roughly the same effect at anyrate because it's a volume regime. And plus soon I'll run out of onsight routes, so things will shift, unless I go to the other wall in Bristol which could be an option. I suspect in a month I will end up having to repeat routes to get the volume, hence why I plan to move on to redpointing harder routes but with less volume. Can't say I can get enthused about bouldering - never have done although the font circuit approach could work...
Yeah, I know the failure thing is not always positive. I suspect I'll most likely try to do a whole round of one particular core route circuit ie routes in a grade band - maybe I should do that next week. But I suspect it will have roughly the same effect at anyrate because it's a volume regime. And plus soon I'll run out of onsight routes, so things will shift, unless I go to the other wall in Bristol which could be an option. I suspect in a month I will end up having to repeat routes to get the volume, hence why I plan to move on to redpointing harder routes but with less volume. Can't say I can get enthused about bouldering - never have done although the font circuit approach could work...
In reply to beardy mike:
Get bouldering. It will make a massive difference. Try googling aerobic and anaerobic training for climbing and see how you can balance your sessions to include both. It's important to work low intensity as well as high intensity. Otherwise you'll get better at holding on for a bit longer but not for recovering if you reach a suitable rest. Doubles, laps on easier routes and basic intervals (i.e. climb for a short period of time, rest for a short period of time) will go some way towards this. Bouldering will train finger strength, anaerobic capacity and power.
Regular climbing combined with a bit of structure will see you easily make that 7b goal.
Get bouldering. It will make a massive difference. Try googling aerobic and anaerobic training for climbing and see how you can balance your sessions to include both. It's important to work low intensity as well as high intensity. Otherwise you'll get better at holding on for a bit longer but not for recovering if you reach a suitable rest. Doubles, laps on easier routes and basic intervals (i.e. climb for a short period of time, rest for a short period of time) will go some way towards this. Bouldering will train finger strength, anaerobic capacity and power.
Regular climbing combined with a bit of structure will see you easily make that 7b goal.
6
In reply to MischaHY:
I guess I could do a lower grade aerobic pyramid - do two laps of a route in a row with no rest up to a high point and then back down... or laps on a low grade core circuit. But bouldering? I have a beeny but I'm not sure it's cool enough :0 Just never really get on with bouldering and get bored quickly. That's the trouble with training for me - if I find it dull I just don't have the will power! Will get back on the bike in the early spring for aerobic training for the mountains and to trim off some weight... or I could just do laps all night long on the crack at redpoint... but then I'd have to go do the nose and I haven't got the money
I guess I could do a lower grade aerobic pyramid - do two laps of a route in a row with no rest up to a high point and then back down... or laps on a low grade core circuit. But bouldering? I have a beeny but I'm not sure it's cool enough :0 Just never really get on with bouldering and get bored quickly. That's the trouble with training for me - if I find it dull I just don't have the will power! Will get back on the bike in the early spring for aerobic training for the mountains and to trim off some weight... or I could just do laps all night long on the crack at redpoint... but then I'd have to go do the nose and I haven't got the money
In reply to beardy mike:
I am by no means an expert at this nor can I recommend my methods as getting me to a massively high grade, but certainly gets me to F7b redpoints so might work for you.
1 session: Routes doubles. I start at an easy warm up grade, go up to around my max onsight grade, and back down. Basically I do every route twice in a row without rest, or two routes of similar grade on same indoor line. My belay partner will then do the same. A variation on this is to keep everything a grade or two below my onsight grade and try to get to 20 routes in 2hr30 or so. This is actually pretty tough. I equate this with high end Aerobic Capacity training.
1 session: Hard bouldering. Warm up doing easier boulders then pick boulders above your maximum level and try to work them. Idea is over a couple of weeks to be able to string together moves that when you first tried you were unable to do in isolation. Can do this redpointing really hard routes but it doesn't work as well.
1 session: Depending on goals at time, will either be another bouldering or fingerboard session, an easy volume session (i.e. loads of easy routes or boulders within minimal rest), or a pumpy session doing boulder circuits.
I have to add I know of one or two people who climb in the 7s without bouldering, but many more who climb in the 7s & 8s but never climb routes indoors, and only train by various bouldering methods.
I am by no means an expert at this nor can I recommend my methods as getting me to a massively high grade, but certainly gets me to F7b redpoints so might work for you.
1 session: Routes doubles. I start at an easy warm up grade, go up to around my max onsight grade, and back down. Basically I do every route twice in a row without rest, or two routes of similar grade on same indoor line. My belay partner will then do the same. A variation on this is to keep everything a grade or two below my onsight grade and try to get to 20 routes in 2hr30 or so. This is actually pretty tough. I equate this with high end Aerobic Capacity training.
1 session: Hard bouldering. Warm up doing easier boulders then pick boulders above your maximum level and try to work them. Idea is over a couple of weeks to be able to string together moves that when you first tried you were unable to do in isolation. Can do this redpointing really hard routes but it doesn't work as well.
1 session: Depending on goals at time, will either be another bouldering or fingerboard session, an easy volume session (i.e. loads of easy routes or boulders within minimal rest), or a pumpy session doing boulder circuits.
I have to add I know of one or two people who climb in the 7s without bouldering, but many more who climb in the 7s & 8s but never climb routes indoors, and only train by various bouldering methods.
1
In reply to beardy mike:
Could you manage 3 days a week? Six week would be better than 4.
My "go to" sessions for quick improvement would be...
Tue: 4x4 routes, pushing the grade to the max of what is do-able or close to do-able.
Thu: finger board reapeaters, I use the Beastmaker App and a Beastmaker 1000.
Sun: Repointing... routes warm-up then 3 or 4 burns on something very hard with 30min rests between burns.
Could you manage 3 days a week? Six week would be better than 4.
My "go to" sessions for quick improvement would be...
Tue: 4x4 routes, pushing the grade to the max of what is do-able or close to do-able.
Thu: finger board reapeaters, I use the Beastmaker App and a Beastmaker 1000.
Sun: Repointing... routes warm-up then 3 or 4 burns on something very hard with 30min rests between burns.
In reply to beardy mike:
If you can onsight 7a consistently (I presume that's what you mean) then I reckon you won't need to redpoint a lot of the 7a+ because you'll get it first go, and you'll probably onsight the odd 7b.
I wish I could onsight 7a consistently too. I reckon I'm consistent at about 6c. But maybe I'm particularly inconsistent.
> But this year I'd like to get to 7a consistently, 7a+ redpoint and 7b on abloody good day.
If you can onsight 7a consistently (I presume that's what you mean) then I reckon you won't need to redpoint a lot of the 7a+ because you'll get it first go, and you'll probably onsight the odd 7b.
I wish I could onsight 7a consistently too. I reckon I'm consistent at about 6c. But maybe I'm particularly inconsistent.
2
In reply to JLS:
It's tough to do more than 2 days a week - I'm an hour away from the wall - infact the local sport climbing is less time to get there but not so easy with the day light hours being naff now. And I'm not sure I'm disciplined enough for a fingerboard at home. I have a home made one which I think I've done about 5 pullups on ever!
But it does seem a consistent theme that people are pulling laps of a route with little to no rest. When you say 4x4 do you mean 4 routes lapped 4 times?
It's tough to do more than 2 days a week - I'm an hour away from the wall - infact the local sport climbing is less time to get there but not so easy with the day light hours being naff now. And I'm not sure I'm disciplined enough for a fingerboard at home. I have a home made one which I think I've done about 5 pullups on ever!
But it does seem a consistent theme that people are pulling laps of a route with little to no rest. When you say 4x4 do you mean 4 routes lapped 4 times?
In reply to beardy mike:
Yes, bouldering. The whole reason it came into conception in the first place (before becoming a discipline in its own right) was as training for routes. It is massively beneficial to practice harder moves in isolation in order to be able to execute them on a route.
I've heard so many people make the whole 'bouldering is boring, I've never got on with it' statement. What they usually mean is that they've never spent more than a few sessions focusing on it and therefore never saw the benefits. The more you do it, the stronger you will get and the more fun it will become as your ability grows.
Bouldering isn't a 'cool activity' for the kids, it's a powerful tool for growing your climbing ability. Without it you will IMO seriously struggle to gain the necessary power for routes in the 7th grade.
Ironically this likely won't make much if any difference to your climbing. Aerobic gains made from cycling won't benefit your climbing as they aren't specific enough - the training needs to involve the muscle groups used in climbing working together in an aerobically intense environment - hence the laps on easier ground to help get your aero systems working without being hard enough that it tips over into AnCap. Plus cycling will recruit muscle mass to your legs, at least partially offsetting any weight you might lose.
Well, that's the deal. Just like anything else in life, if you want to achieve something you have to put in the grind. You have to want the end result. Do you want to climb harder, as you said earlier?
Sounds like you do. Training is pretty simple IMO. Put something in, you'll get something back. If you put nothing in, guess what you're going to get?
If you're not psyched to try hard and challenge yourself in areas of weakness (where all the biggest gains are made!) then I recommend you just enjoy the climbing that you can manage right now. But if you're keen to push yourself and hit a new level of difficulty then it's important to mentally commit.
Friends are very helpful in this regard! Are your mates interested in pushing themselves as well? Maybe they'll be up for doing your training with you? And if the local wall is a bit of a mission then maybe invite them round to your place and get on the fingerboard together. Get some info off the internet and maybe the beastmaker app and have a mess around. You'd be surprised how much you manage. Some of my best sessions have been having fun with friends on a system board or campus board etc, just seeing what we can do.
P.S I agree with the above - if you can consistently onsight 7a I'd be expecting a fairly regular 7a+ onsight and 2nd or 3rd go on 7b redpoint. Indoors, that is.
Hope this helps
> But bouldering?
Yes, bouldering. The whole reason it came into conception in the first place (before becoming a discipline in its own right) was as training for routes. It is massively beneficial to practice harder moves in isolation in order to be able to execute them on a route.
I've heard so many people make the whole 'bouldering is boring, I've never got on with it' statement. What they usually mean is that they've never spent more than a few sessions focusing on it and therefore never saw the benefits. The more you do it, the stronger you will get and the more fun it will become as your ability grows.
Bouldering isn't a 'cool activity' for the kids, it's a powerful tool for growing your climbing ability. Without it you will IMO seriously struggle to gain the necessary power for routes in the 7th grade.
> Will get back on the bike in the early spring for aerobic training for the mountains and to trim off some weight...
Ironically this likely won't make much if any difference to your climbing. Aerobic gains made from cycling won't benefit your climbing as they aren't specific enough - the training needs to involve the muscle groups used in climbing working together in an aerobically intense environment - hence the laps on easier ground to help get your aero systems working without being hard enough that it tips over into AnCap. Plus cycling will recruit muscle mass to your legs, at least partially offsetting any weight you might lose.
> That's the trouble with training for me - if I find it dull I just don't have the will power!
Well, that's the deal. Just like anything else in life, if you want to achieve something you have to put in the grind. You have to want the end result. Do you want to climb harder, as you said earlier?
> This year I'd like to get to 7a consistently, 7a+ redpoint and 7b on a bloody good day.
Sounds like you do. Training is pretty simple IMO. Put something in, you'll get something back. If you put nothing in, guess what you're going to get?
If you're not psyched to try hard and challenge yourself in areas of weakness (where all the biggest gains are made!) then I recommend you just enjoy the climbing that you can manage right now. But if you're keen to push yourself and hit a new level of difficulty then it's important to mentally commit.
Friends are very helpful in this regard! Are your mates interested in pushing themselves as well? Maybe they'll be up for doing your training with you? And if the local wall is a bit of a mission then maybe invite them round to your place and get on the fingerboard together. Get some info off the internet and maybe the beastmaker app and have a mess around. You'd be surprised how much you manage. Some of my best sessions have been having fun with friends on a system board or campus board etc, just seeing what we can do.
P.S I agree with the above - if you can consistently onsight 7a I'd be expecting a fairly regular 7a+ onsight and 2nd or 3rd go on 7b redpoint. Indoors, that is.
Hope this helps
12
In reply to beardy mike:
The sort of session you describe is absolutely great when you are at the start of a training program and need to work on building up both a base of fitness and reinforce good technique through a progressive approach. If it suits you, stick with it (or something similar) for the next 4-6 weeks.
However, in the longer term it falls between two stools. You are unlikely to be climbing hard enough in comparison to your goals to really get good at making hard moves on lead. Equally you're unlikely to be getting pumped enough either to really develop stamina.
As such, after perhaps a month or two when you'll inevitably start to find diminishing gains from a pyramid session you should probably branch off into either purely redpointing sessions or stamina (e.g. 4x4) sessions, or bouldering.
If you want to climb 7b outdoors then you should really be aiming to spend time climbing (or failing to climb) that grade indoors. Only by doing that will you start to understand what your true weaknesses are and how to start addressing them:
- Tactics, technique or mental issues: Spend more time on the grade 7s, and much less onsighting grade 6s.
- Inability to do crux moves: Some targeted bouldering will probably be they way forward even if you are not a great fan.
- Getting too pumped: Stamina training of which 4x4 are one of the simplest options.
(In answer to the question about 4x4. Yes, you climb 4 routes back to back with as little rest as possible, swap over and then repeat 4 times. Ideally, each set you climb the same route 4 times but the aim is only to fail on the 4th attempt so it's not uncommon to change the route for the 3rd or 4th attempt if you have overestimated your ability.
Also, you want to lead every time so the normal procedure is to stay tied in throughout and use as short a rope as possible so it is quick to pull through. Some people immediately climb back onto the wall after lowering whilst the belayer pulls the rope and puts them back on belay but the difference is marginal.
They are good, relatively quick sessions but not ideal if the wall is super busy.
HTH)
The sort of session you describe is absolutely great when you are at the start of a training program and need to work on building up both a base of fitness and reinforce good technique through a progressive approach. If it suits you, stick with it (or something similar) for the next 4-6 weeks.
However, in the longer term it falls between two stools. You are unlikely to be climbing hard enough in comparison to your goals to really get good at making hard moves on lead. Equally you're unlikely to be getting pumped enough either to really develop stamina.
As such, after perhaps a month or two when you'll inevitably start to find diminishing gains from a pyramid session you should probably branch off into either purely redpointing sessions or stamina (e.g. 4x4) sessions, or bouldering.
If you want to climb 7b outdoors then you should really be aiming to spend time climbing (or failing to climb) that grade indoors. Only by doing that will you start to understand what your true weaknesses are and how to start addressing them:
- Tactics, technique or mental issues: Spend more time on the grade 7s, and much less onsighting grade 6s.
- Inability to do crux moves: Some targeted bouldering will probably be they way forward even if you are not a great fan.
- Getting too pumped: Stamina training of which 4x4 are one of the simplest options.
(In answer to the question about 4x4. Yes, you climb 4 routes back to back with as little rest as possible, swap over and then repeat 4 times. Ideally, each set you climb the same route 4 times but the aim is only to fail on the 4th attempt so it's not uncommon to change the route for the 3rd or 4th attempt if you have overestimated your ability.
Also, you want to lead every time so the normal procedure is to stay tied in throughout and use as short a rope as possible so it is quick to pull through. Some people immediately climb back onto the wall after lowering whilst the belayer pulls the rope and puts them back on belay but the difference is marginal.
They are good, relatively quick sessions but not ideal if the wall is super busy.
HTH)
2
In reply to MischaHY:
Yeah I know I know. Certainly willing to give the bouldering a go - half of what I said was tounge in cheek. You're right I guess in as much I've never given it much of a go. Around where I am the outdoors bouldering isn't great unless you travel and as I've always been looking to do alpine stuff rather than out and out sport grades it's never been particularly high on my list of priorities. I understand cycling won't get me gains in terms of hard sport grades, but I'm still interested in the alpine stuff and that will be my main focus next summer, so aerobic fitness will be super important aswell. In th mean time I want to build what I have in the tank so that when I get on a 20 pitch wall in the Dolomites, I'll be climbing UIAA VII- rather than VI-.
But I just happen to be inspired by one particular route in cheddar which is graded 6b, 7a+, 7b. And really what I'd like is an ascent bottom to top in a clean go with me seconding the 7b pitch. Maybe this is a little more straight forward than I was making out, and I'm happy to go up and work the 7a+ pitch to try to get it. I guess it's more about seeing what I can actually do as I've never really tried with the whole sport thing and just viewed it as something to do when its too damn cold to trad climb. But thigs have changed recently and I feel a bit more inspired to get on hard things before I get too old (hehe - how long before I get lambasted by mega 60 year olds climbing 8a's )
Unfortunately most of my partners are not as keen for the hard pitches, which is not going to be that helpful, but I guess that doesn't really matter as long as I get to do my thing. Training does't come that easily to me as I've just never been in to it, so really the aim of the post was to find "games" to play that will make it more fun. I know bouldering can be fun, but its just never (in the 25 years I've been climbing) been something that's made me get out of bed in the morning like it is for some people. But I am certainly going to try circuits a go. I guess I need to switch my mentality away from onsight trad which I think is as big a hurdle as anything else. I'm beginning to do that with sport so probably need to try it with bouldering too.
Yeah I know I know. Certainly willing to give the bouldering a go - half of what I said was tounge in cheek. You're right I guess in as much I've never given it much of a go. Around where I am the outdoors bouldering isn't great unless you travel and as I've always been looking to do alpine stuff rather than out and out sport grades it's never been particularly high on my list of priorities. I understand cycling won't get me gains in terms of hard sport grades, but I'm still interested in the alpine stuff and that will be my main focus next summer, so aerobic fitness will be super important aswell. In th mean time I want to build what I have in the tank so that when I get on a 20 pitch wall in the Dolomites, I'll be climbing UIAA VII- rather than VI-.
But I just happen to be inspired by one particular route in cheddar which is graded 6b, 7a+, 7b. And really what I'd like is an ascent bottom to top in a clean go with me seconding the 7b pitch. Maybe this is a little more straight forward than I was making out, and I'm happy to go up and work the 7a+ pitch to try to get it. I guess it's more about seeing what I can actually do as I've never really tried with the whole sport thing and just viewed it as something to do when its too damn cold to trad climb. But thigs have changed recently and I feel a bit more inspired to get on hard things before I get too old (hehe - how long before I get lambasted by mega 60 year olds climbing 8a's )
Unfortunately most of my partners are not as keen for the hard pitches, which is not going to be that helpful, but I guess that doesn't really matter as long as I get to do my thing. Training does't come that easily to me as I've just never been in to it, so really the aim of the post was to find "games" to play that will make it more fun. I know bouldering can be fun, but its just never (in the 25 years I've been climbing) been something that's made me get out of bed in the morning like it is for some people. But I am certainly going to try circuits a go. I guess I need to switch my mentality away from onsight trad which I think is as big a hurdle as anything else. I'm beginning to do that with sport so probably need to try it with bouldering too.
In reply to beardy mike:
Yeah, the finger boarding take a bit of discipline but you sounded quite psyched.
It would help you to tap into strength you don't know you already have by getting neurological systems firing on all cylinders.
And yes, 4x4 is 4 routes, 4 times each. 1 hour warm-up (say 5-6 routes), 15min rest then the four sets with 15-20min rests between sets and no rest between the laps. Ideally a non-cruxy, sustained routes. Steep I find is best as you get more of a core workout too. If there is limited choice I'd be happy to use the same route for all 16 laps. This will help with power endurance but the biggest gain is in your on route recovery - you'll start to find good shake-outs on ever smaller holds.
In short, the fingerboarding will help you through the crux and the 4x4's will help you get to the top.
Yeah, the finger boarding take a bit of discipline but you sounded quite psyched.
It would help you to tap into strength you don't know you already have by getting neurological systems firing on all cylinders.
And yes, 4x4 is 4 routes, 4 times each. 1 hour warm-up (say 5-6 routes), 15min rest then the four sets with 15-20min rests between sets and no rest between the laps. Ideally a non-cruxy, sustained routes. Steep I find is best as you get more of a core workout too. If there is limited choice I'd be happy to use the same route for all 16 laps. This will help with power endurance but the biggest gain is in your on route recovery - you'll start to find good shake-outs on ever smaller holds.
In short, the fingerboarding will help you through the crux and the 4x4's will help you get to the top.
1
In reply to beardy mike:
Cheers guys - these responses are really really helpful and well thought out responses - definitely going to put this into practice!
Cheers guys - these responses are really really helpful and well thought out responses - definitely going to put this into practice!
In reply to beardy mike:
If you find bouldering and fingerboarding a struggle then the only way otherwise I can suggest is sport redpointing, but the only way to make it hard enough to really substitute for bouldering is to try seriously hard things that you can only link sections of (if you're wanting to redpoint 7b, then say sections of 7b+ or 7c). It's just a trick, in that you're basically doing a faffy and less efficient bouldering session, but it does have the advantage of teaching you to try really really hard on a rope which is an advantage in itself... You'll get more training stimulus from bouldering though, to be honest, there's a reason why it's the most popular way...
If you find bouldering and fingerboarding a struggle then the only way otherwise I can suggest is sport redpointing, but the only way to make it hard enough to really substitute for bouldering is to try seriously hard things that you can only link sections of (if you're wanting to redpoint 7b, then say sections of 7b+ or 7c). It's just a trick, in that you're basically doing a faffy and less efficient bouldering session, but it does have the advantage of teaching you to try really really hard on a rope which is an advantage in itself... You'll get more training stimulus from bouldering though, to be honest, there's a reason why it's the most popular way...
In reply to beardy mike:
I should but I don't... beyond broadly deciding on a session being either stamina or difficulty focused.
I should but I don't... beyond broadly deciding on a session being either stamina or difficulty focused.
In reply to beardy mike:
A good 'game' or system I like, especially if coming into it somewhat unfit is to first try and do all the routes of one grade, say the 6b's. When those are all ticked I move on to the 6c, then 7a etc. As the wall adds new routes you do those too, so sometimes you get to do some easier routes too. But as you go up in grade you end up having to practice routes and redpoint them. I remember some years ago getting stuck on a particularly hard 6c for several sessions. After I finally did it I found out it was wrongly graded and should have 7a+. Feeling full of confidence to move up I then got 6c+ and couldn't even do the moves. Turned out this was actually a 7b+. Anyway in general I think that's a good way to go because it's progressive.
Another system is to keep an eye on how many pitches you do during the session at each grade. You can give each grade points if you like, higher grades obviously get more points. The goal is then to try to get more points than previously. This is a good way to progress a combination of intensity and volume.
A good 'game' or system I like, especially if coming into it somewhat unfit is to first try and do all the routes of one grade, say the 6b's. When those are all ticked I move on to the 6c, then 7a etc. As the wall adds new routes you do those too, so sometimes you get to do some easier routes too. But as you go up in grade you end up having to practice routes and redpoint them. I remember some years ago getting stuck on a particularly hard 6c for several sessions. After I finally did it I found out it was wrongly graded and should have 7a+. Feeling full of confidence to move up I then got 6c+ and couldn't even do the moves. Turned out this was actually a 7b+. Anyway in general I think that's a good way to go because it's progressive.
Another system is to keep an eye on how many pitches you do during the session at each grade. You can give each grade points if you like, higher grades obviously get more points. The goal is then to try to get more points than previously. This is a good way to progress a combination of intensity and volume.
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In reply to beardy mike:
Indoors, we pick routes for eachother, then smile as the leader is leaving the ground- then yell, 'CLIMB! or F*CKING DIE!' Lol
Indoors, we pick routes for eachother, then smile as the leader is leaving the ground- then yell, 'CLIMB! or F*CKING DIE!' Lol
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In reply to stp:
Interesting idea. Has this pitch scoring improved your climbing? Any preference to how you would score routes if 6b is your max onsight?
Cheers
Interesting idea. Has this pitch scoring improved your climbing? Any preference to how you would score routes if 6b is your max onsight?
Cheers
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In reply to RockSteady:
Do you do all 3 types of sessions a week, or cycle through the session types over a number of weeks?
Do you do all 3 types of sessions a week, or cycle through the session types over a number of weeks?
In reply to beardy mike:
I'd make one of your sessions bouldering, and I've found bikram yoga's cured me sore shoulders, elbows etc.
I'd make one of your sessions bouldering, and I've found bikram yoga's cured me sore shoulders, elbows etc.
In reply to zimpara:
I think more than anything it gives you realistic goals and later you can see your improvements with more clarity. I'd also add that I included routes done with rests because otherwise you might be put off trying harder routes - which is exactly what you don't want.
I didn't end up using points myself but just kept a tally of routes done by grade and in what style: onsight, flash, RP or with rests. From a table it was simple to see progress. It's also more accurate because if you just watch your top grade, well that one route for example might have been overgraded. But if you see one month say your doing 4 x 6b's and 1 x 6c and the next month your sessions include 3 x 6b+ and 3 x 6c the improvement is more obvious.
I definitely improved. It's hard not to if you go regularly (say a min of 3x pw), do enough, AND keep pushing yourself.
I think more than anything it gives you realistic goals and later you can see your improvements with more clarity. I'd also add that I included routes done with rests because otherwise you might be put off trying harder routes - which is exactly what you don't want.
I didn't end up using points myself but just kept a tally of routes done by grade and in what style: onsight, flash, RP or with rests. From a table it was simple to see progress. It's also more accurate because if you just watch your top grade, well that one route for example might have been overgraded. But if you see one month say your doing 4 x 6b's and 1 x 6c and the next month your sessions include 3 x 6b+ and 3 x 6c the improvement is more obvious.
I definitely improved. It's hard not to if you go regularly (say a min of 3x pw), do enough, AND keep pushing yourself.
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In reply to beardy mike:
I'm in a fairly similar place. Tomorrow I'm getting a lad at my local wall with a sports science background to do a bit of analysis of my climbing and make me a plan for the winter. I've done this kind of thing before a few years back and found it really helpful, but my goals are a bit different this time.
I reckon a proper training plan (either do it yourself from books and the internet, or pay someone) is the way forward to keep the motivation up for indoors over the winter. I don't really care that much if it's the most efficient plan ever, but as long as it gives me a structure that leads to improvement (i.e. reward) then I'll be happy.
I'm in a fairly similar place. Tomorrow I'm getting a lad at my local wall with a sports science background to do a bit of analysis of my climbing and make me a plan for the winter. I've done this kind of thing before a few years back and found it really helpful, but my goals are a bit different this time.
I reckon a proper training plan (either do it yourself from books and the internet, or pay someone) is the way forward to keep the motivation up for indoors over the winter. I don't really care that much if it's the most efficient plan ever, but as long as it gives me a structure that leads to improvement (i.e. reward) then I'll be happy.
In reply to beardy mike:
6b to 7a isn't that big a jump but it will require more endurance, finger strength and technique. You don't really need much more power or arm strength as an average 7a doesn't have moves which are that hard (I'd say generally no more than trad 6a but there can be a lot of trad 5c).
Your pyramids sound like endurance training, so that's going to be useful. However don't bother starting with 4s or 5s, that's a waste of time if you're doing 6c, never mind 7s. Just warm up on a few easy boulder problems, that would be quicker anyway, then get straight on a 6a. Once you get to 7a-7b, you should be able to kick off on 6b-c easily enough (you might have to outdoors, depending on the crag!). Of course particularly over the winter months it's important to get your arms and fingers physically warm to avoid injury, so get a few problems done and don't crank on anything too hard straight away.
The best endurance training I know is bouldering circuits, climbing up and down the same problem (or add a cheat hold if it's too hard to do a move on the way down) and straight on to the next one in the circuit without touching the floor (so climb across using any holds), and so on round the whole bouldering wall. This will redefine your understanding of lactic pain! Pick a circuit at a level where you can just about do this with shake outs en route and build up to it by doing it one problem at a time - first with short rests, then walking across to the next one, then climbing across. I believe this is far more effective than route based endurance training. It's not dull either, because after a few problems you will be focused on when you can get the next shakeout and there will be no time to get bored!
You do need to be able to do trad 6a moves (so around V3-4), so you should also build in some bouldering - look to get to a stage where you can flash that consistently (and work slightly harder problems).
Finally, redpoint some routes in the low 7s indoors as just doing lots of 6s (especially indoors) won't get you up 7s!
Something a bit structured would help, so focus on endurance one session and bouldering harder problems another session, or do blocks of a few weeks where you mostly focus on a particular thing.
6b to 7a isn't that big a jump but it will require more endurance, finger strength and technique. You don't really need much more power or arm strength as an average 7a doesn't have moves which are that hard (I'd say generally no more than trad 6a but there can be a lot of trad 5c).
Your pyramids sound like endurance training, so that's going to be useful. However don't bother starting with 4s or 5s, that's a waste of time if you're doing 6c, never mind 7s. Just warm up on a few easy boulder problems, that would be quicker anyway, then get straight on a 6a. Once you get to 7a-7b, you should be able to kick off on 6b-c easily enough (you might have to outdoors, depending on the crag!). Of course particularly over the winter months it's important to get your arms and fingers physically warm to avoid injury, so get a few problems done and don't crank on anything too hard straight away.
The best endurance training I know is bouldering circuits, climbing up and down the same problem (or add a cheat hold if it's too hard to do a move on the way down) and straight on to the next one in the circuit without touching the floor (so climb across using any holds), and so on round the whole bouldering wall. This will redefine your understanding of lactic pain! Pick a circuit at a level where you can just about do this with shake outs en route and build up to it by doing it one problem at a time - first with short rests, then walking across to the next one, then climbing across. I believe this is far more effective than route based endurance training. It's not dull either, because after a few problems you will be focused on when you can get the next shakeout and there will be no time to get bored!
You do need to be able to do trad 6a moves (so around V3-4), so you should also build in some bouldering - look to get to a stage where you can flash that consistently (and work slightly harder problems).
Finally, redpoint some routes in the low 7s indoors as just doing lots of 6s (especially indoors) won't get you up 7s!
Something a bit structured would help, so focus on endurance one session and bouldering harder problems another session, or do blocks of a few weeks where you mostly focus on a particular thing.
Post edited at 23:12
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In reply to JLS:
In my experience there m's no need to do finger boarding to get to 7b.
In my experience there m's no need to do finger boarding to get to 7b.
In reply to Misha:
Indeed. I'd climbed a 7c without ever touching a fingerboard. However having now done a bit of fingerboarding I can now appreciate that four sessions can mean the diffrence between fingers melting off a crimp and being solid on it. I took it that the OP wanted to a quick return on his four weeks of training. The finger board will give "apparent" strength gains quickly and the 4x4ing will also work quickly. These gains won't be long lasting after he stops training in four weeks time but hopefully he'll get up a 7b before they start to fade.
Indeed. I'd climbed a 7c without ever touching a fingerboard. However having now done a bit of fingerboarding I can now appreciate that four sessions can mean the diffrence between fingers melting off a crimp and being solid on it. I took it that the OP wanted to a quick return on his four weeks of training. The finger board will give "apparent" strength gains quickly and the 4x4ing will also work quickly. These gains won't be long lasting after he stops training in four weeks time but hopefully he'll get up a 7b before they start to fade.
In reply to JLS:
May be I should try it, perhaps it's why I've yet to do a 7c despite trying a couple The other side of fingerboarding is the risk of injury. The OP would need to be very careful and gradual.
May be I should try it, perhaps it's why I've yet to do a 7c despite trying a couple The other side of fingerboarding is the risk of injury. The OP would need to be very careful and gradual.
Post edited at 01:47
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In reply to JLS:
I pretty much agree. I was climbing 8a/+ routes without ever using a fingerboard - just climbing at the weekend - no midweek sessions (except for holidays) or "training". But that was based on a preceding fair few years of spending my weekends "limit" bouldering, so I had decent background finger strength.
Last year, I took up having a session or two of finger boarding midweek and credit it with getting me through a few projects. I am not massively better in terms of grade but have consolidated a lot - feel a lot more secure on crux holds and able to "unlease the crimp" when necessary. Mainly a recruitment / neurological issue I suspect - the gains seemed too rapid to be due to any increase in tendon strength.
> Indeed. I'd climbed a 7c without ever touching a fingerboard.
I pretty much agree. I was climbing 8a/+ routes without ever using a fingerboard - just climbing at the weekend - no midweek sessions (except for holidays) or "training". But that was based on a preceding fair few years of spending my weekends "limit" bouldering, so I had decent background finger strength.
Last year, I took up having a session or two of finger boarding midweek and credit it with getting me through a few projects. I am not massively better in terms of grade but have consolidated a lot - feel a lot more secure on crux holds and able to "unlease the crimp" when necessary. Mainly a recruitment / neurological issue I suspect - the gains seemed too rapid to be due to any increase in tendon strength.
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In reply to beardy mike:
A slight problem with your plan is that the grades for the routes at your wall could be a fair bit innacurate, so sometimes the 6a+ could really 6b+, or the 6c you might find compares more with other stuff graded 6b, they can be a bit all over the place, but probably no more than a letter grade, plus a half sometimes. So your onsighting pyramid agenda is slightly flawed... when you get more familiar with the routes at the wall you are doing, you will begin to realise this, but then you can still apply your pyramid idea to repeating routes at grades you now know more accurately.
I suppose sometimes we think routes are under graded because we are having a weak day, but you know they really are wrong when you go back fresh and strong but the battle isn't over.
It's a shame walls don't have a system that would work like rockfax, with routes submitted via belay point number and colour, so people can vote on the grade.
Perhaps some do? Wouldn't really take long for them to input the routes, and change them with each reset, could be good fun too, and keep us all with a better consensus for each grade.
(apart from the variations caused by routes more suited to those with a lesser or larger reach).
I suggested it to one wall, but they thought it would be too much work... I thought the initial work would be fairly easy, and then just the votes would need zeroing with each reset.
Perhapa this is going off topic and needs a separate post.
A slight problem with your plan is that the grades for the routes at your wall could be a fair bit innacurate, so sometimes the 6a+ could really 6b+, or the 6c you might find compares more with other stuff graded 6b, they can be a bit all over the place, but probably no more than a letter grade, plus a half sometimes. So your onsighting pyramid agenda is slightly flawed... when you get more familiar with the routes at the wall you are doing, you will begin to realise this, but then you can still apply your pyramid idea to repeating routes at grades you now know more accurately.
I suppose sometimes we think routes are under graded because we are having a weak day, but you know they really are wrong when you go back fresh and strong but the battle isn't over.
It's a shame walls don't have a system that would work like rockfax, with routes submitted via belay point number and colour, so people can vote on the grade.
Perhaps some do? Wouldn't really take long for them to input the routes, and change them with each reset, could be good fun too, and keep us all with a better consensus for each grade.
(apart from the variations caused by routes more suited to those with a lesser or larger reach).
I suggested it to one wall, but they thought it would be too much work... I thought the initial work would be fairly easy, and then just the votes would need zeroing with each reset.
Perhapa this is going off topic and needs a separate post.
Post edited at 08:22
In reply to Misha:
I've found the the Beastmaker App very helpful in getting me onto the fingerboard.
I literally started at the begining with the 5A session which felt nails (the grades don't correlate to real grades). It is possible to feel your way into it without breaking yourself if you warm-up well and maybe cut a couple of seconds off the hardest hangs.
I've found the the Beastmaker App very helpful in getting me onto the fingerboard.
I literally started at the begining with the 5A session which felt nails (the grades don't correlate to real grades). It is possible to feel your way into it without breaking yourself if you warm-up well and maybe cut a couple of seconds off the hardest hangs.
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In reply to Phi:
All 3 sessions in the week. 1 climbing volume in aerobic zones, 1 intense bouldering/fingerboarding, 1 flexible. The third session flexes depending on time of year and current goals. In winter when I'm more likely to be bouldering the 3rd session is usually a second bouldering/strength session. In spring I start to use it to build volume, then in summer start doing power endurance for routes.
Or at least that's what I did last year, and went from 7b to 7c redpoint.
All 3 sessions in the week. 1 climbing volume in aerobic zones, 1 intense bouldering/fingerboarding, 1 flexible. The third session flexes depending on time of year and current goals. In winter when I'm more likely to be bouldering the 3rd session is usually a second bouldering/strength session. In spring I start to use it to build volume, then in summer start doing power endurance for routes.
Or at least that's what I did last year, and went from 7b to 7c redpoint.
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In reply to sebastian dangerfield:
Planning on starting doing pilates to help with my non existent core muscles. At the minute I've got a 1 pack.
Planning on starting doing pilates to help with my non existent core muscles. At the minute I've got a 1 pack.
In reply to Misha:
The starting low is my warm up to avoid injury though... that's why I bother. I maybe only do a route at each grade at that point, and this time I thought I'd start gently so work out where I am in the game. But I do intend to start a bit higher next time to make sure I get in more volume at a harder grade early on. Really my grade is where it is at the minute because I've been climbing for ages and so have the confidence to make moves with less strength than I used to have. So I need to treat it as a base and build on it.
The starting low is my warm up to avoid injury though... that's why I bother. I maybe only do a route at each grade at that point, and this time I thought I'd start gently so work out where I am in the game. But I do intend to start a bit higher next time to make sure I get in more volume at a harder grade early on. Really my grade is where it is at the minute because I've been climbing for ages and so have the confidence to make moves with less strength than I used to have. So I need to treat it as a base and build on it.
In reply to richrox:
I realise indoor grades have nowt to do with outdoor grades - don't fear, I twigged that one well over 20 years ago. But it is a way to quantify your session. I mean the other day I did a supposed 6a which was heaps harder than the next routes I did at 6a+... Doesn't matter though. Still got the tick... I guess that's why bracketed circuits are good as you are operating in a band of difficulty and just dealing with what's thrown your way rather than spending your time worrying about the grade...
I realise indoor grades have nowt to do with outdoor grades - don't fear, I twigged that one well over 20 years ago. But it is a way to quantify your session. I mean the other day I did a supposed 6a which was heaps harder than the next routes I did at 6a+... Doesn't matter though. Still got the tick... I guess that's why bracketed circuits are good as you are operating in a band of difficulty and just dealing with what's thrown your way rather than spending your time worrying about the grade...
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In reply to james.slater:
I've also got similar goals but probably from a slightly different starting point to the OP - E2's and 6b onsight reasonably regularly, and a couple of 7a's outdoors and some trad E3/4/5, and a 7a+ that took a few days over a year or so.
I've splashed out on the Training Beta programs, and they seem to be working a treat. I don't have the time to learn about the ins and outs of writing a training plan for climbing, all my knowledge of how to train is as a runner. So I'm happy to pay someone else to do it for me. You can get a few weeks free then either pay a month at a time (allows you to try a full 6 week cycle for about £12) or can go bigger and buy in 6 or 12 month blocks. Next payday I'll be investing in a 6 month package to get throught the winter.
> Also looking to be in a similar place after this winter, and trying to set up some sort of plan. Are you doing the pyramids with no rests in between routes, and one climber does his entire pyramid at once? Or are you 'swinging leads' as it were?
I've also got similar goals but probably from a slightly different starting point to the OP - E2's and 6b onsight reasonably regularly, and a couple of 7a's outdoors and some trad E3/4/5, and a 7a+ that took a few days over a year or so.
I've splashed out on the Training Beta programs, and they seem to be working a treat. I don't have the time to learn about the ins and outs of writing a training plan for climbing, all my knowledge of how to train is as a runner. So I'm happy to pay someone else to do it for me. You can get a few weeks free then either pay a month at a time (allows you to try a full 6 week cycle for about £12) or can go bigger and buy in 6 or 12 month blocks. Next payday I'll be investing in a 6 month package to get throught the winter.
Post edited at 12:39
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In reply to beardy mike:
Never tried it - sure it'll help though. If you do find the training's making you a bit imbalanced, really recommend the yoga.
Never tried it - sure it'll help though. If you do find the training's making you a bit imbalanced, really recommend the yoga.
In reply to sebastian dangerfield:
Pilates is like Yoga without the whale music My missus is going to train to be an instructor and there's a lot of yoga incorporated into it but it is more aimed at maximising core strength and is very good for people with bad backs and stuff like that. I watch her doing her exercises sometimes and some of them look frigging heinous... It's a bit like sooped up power yoga...
Pilates is like Yoga without the whale music My missus is going to train to be an instructor and there's a lot of yoga incorporated into it but it is more aimed at maximising core strength and is very good for people with bad backs and stuff like that. I watch her doing her exercises sometimes and some of them look frigging heinous... It's a bit like sooped up power yoga...
In reply to Misha:
Really helpful suggestions here, as well as from the others. As someone in a similar position, having not climbed regularly for about a year and trying to get back into training, this has helped simplify what has seemed a very complicated process. I'm not quite at the standard of the OP, but could can still lead the right HVS and 6a-b indoors. Having managed a few 7as 18 months ago I know it's feasible, and reading this post has been really good for motivating and giving me some ideas. Having just booked a trip to Tenerife in January I've got something to aim for - thanks to the OP and other posters!
Really helpful suggestions here, as well as from the others. As someone in a similar position, having not climbed regularly for about a year and trying to get back into training, this has helped simplify what has seemed a very complicated process. I'm not quite at the standard of the OP, but could can still lead the right HVS and 6a-b indoors. Having managed a few 7as 18 months ago I know it's feasible, and reading this post has been really good for motivating and giving me some ideas. Having just booked a trip to Tenerife in January I've got something to aim for - thanks to the OP and other posters!
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In reply to beardy mike:
Well I've been taking to heart what you lot have been telling me - only thing lacking is frequency of training - it's nigh on impossible at the minute to get more than one session in a week, so am thinking about getting a hangboard to fill in the gaps. Suggested models most welcome!
So progress; I've done:
1 session of 2 laps per route on green core routes which are steady (5-6a) and managed 21 laps, mostly lead with a couple of topropes just to warm up on.
1 session outside - ended up at the only crag which was warm, did on 6b redpoint which was the warm up, then a 6b beta flash, then a 6a+ onsight
1 session of single routes at a hard grade, managed 16 routes, with probably slightly more than half of those at 6a+ to 6b+ and I think one 6c although that was a red core route so not sure of the grade. But by comparison, it was by far the hardest most sustained route and compared to the 6b+ felt harder.
1 session of mainly 3x laps, 2 greens and a blue, then 2 blues and a green, then 2 blues and a 6a+, then a red core which must have been 6c - I didn't get close to completing it. Then we went bouldering (SHOCK HORROR - and I didn't even wear a beanie!) and managed a V1, 3 V2 onsight, 3 V3's onsight, fluffed another V3 which was crimpy as hell, but I think I can work on that, worked a V4 and got it third go, and another V4 onsight, but I think that was a bit of a soft V4 - felt lots easier than the V3 I fluffed. Then I went and didn't quite make it up a red core, missed it by I think 3 moves at the top - just ran out of steam, then did two lap (nearly on the jamming crack).
So I was pleasently surprised by the bouldering, so I think we may switch for a couple of sessions to build some power. I want to get a couple of V5s and a V6 if possible next. And then back to lead routes to try some 6c's and 6c+'s I think... any suggestions?
Well I've been taking to heart what you lot have been telling me - only thing lacking is frequency of training - it's nigh on impossible at the minute to get more than one session in a week, so am thinking about getting a hangboard to fill in the gaps. Suggested models most welcome!
So progress; I've done:
1 session of 2 laps per route on green core routes which are steady (5-6a) and managed 21 laps, mostly lead with a couple of topropes just to warm up on.
1 session outside - ended up at the only crag which was warm, did on 6b redpoint which was the warm up, then a 6b beta flash, then a 6a+ onsight
1 session of single routes at a hard grade, managed 16 routes, with probably slightly more than half of those at 6a+ to 6b+ and I think one 6c although that was a red core route so not sure of the grade. But by comparison, it was by far the hardest most sustained route and compared to the 6b+ felt harder.
1 session of mainly 3x laps, 2 greens and a blue, then 2 blues and a green, then 2 blues and a 6a+, then a red core which must have been 6c - I didn't get close to completing it. Then we went bouldering (SHOCK HORROR - and I didn't even wear a beanie!) and managed a V1, 3 V2 onsight, 3 V3's onsight, fluffed another V3 which was crimpy as hell, but I think I can work on that, worked a V4 and got it third go, and another V4 onsight, but I think that was a bit of a soft V4 - felt lots easier than the V3 I fluffed. Then I went and didn't quite make it up a red core, missed it by I think 3 moves at the top - just ran out of steam, then did two lap (nearly on the jamming crack).
So I was pleasently surprised by the bouldering, so I think we may switch for a couple of sessions to build some power. I want to get a couple of V5s and a V6 if possible next. And then back to lead routes to try some 6c's and 6c+'s I think... any suggestions?
In reply to beardy mike:
I've been doing similar to build endurance, and a bit of power endurance for the last 4 weeks. Did 20 easier routes at Leeds Wall and my skin was killing me, couldn't have done much more for that reason alone.
This week switched to trying 2 bouldering power/strength sessions a week. Trying to find 2 or 3 boulder problems that are very hard but doable, not sure of the grades. I kind of try them, and then decide on ones to stick with. But also doing the endurance work less frequently to keep up the fitness. Will stick with this until the new year.
> So I was pleasently surprised by the bouldering, so I think we may switch for a couple of sessions to build some power. I want to get a couple of V5s and a V6 if possible next. And then back to lead routes to try some 6c's and 6c+'s I think... any suggestions?
I've been doing similar to build endurance, and a bit of power endurance for the last 4 weeks. Did 20 easier routes at Leeds Wall and my skin was killing me, couldn't have done much more for that reason alone.
This week switched to trying 2 bouldering power/strength sessions a week. Trying to find 2 or 3 boulder problems that are very hard but doable, not sure of the grades. I kind of try them, and then decide on ones to stick with. But also doing the endurance work less frequently to keep up the fitness. Will stick with this until the new year.
Post edited at 13:51
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In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Did come up with a new game for the core routes. So you assign a certain number of points to Green, Blue, Red and Black. So 1 for green, 2 for blue, 3 for red and 4 for black. Then you do routes back to back to a minimum number of points before you untie. So start off with I'll go for three points. So I can either do 3 laps of a green, a lap on a blue and a green or a single red. Then as you get better you just increase the number of points you need to achieve before you stop. This way you quantify your night and can mix up the sort of climbing you're doing a bit and work out your progress from week to week. I know it doesn't account for anomolies in the grading system but worth a try I guess!
Did come up with a new game for the core routes. So you assign a certain number of points to Green, Blue, Red and Black. So 1 for green, 2 for blue, 3 for red and 4 for black. Then you do routes back to back to a minimum number of points before you untie. So start off with I'll go for three points. So I can either do 3 laps of a green, a lap on a blue and a green or a single red. Then as you get better you just increase the number of points you need to achieve before you stop. This way you quantify your night and can mix up the sort of climbing you're doing a bit and work out your progress from week to week. I know it doesn't account for anomolies in the grading system but worth a try I guess!
In reply to beardy mike:
Thanks. Probably would be good to try this, with the points, so points for grades I think you're saying.
Will see how I feel on Saturday. Might avoid the temptation to lap the soft-touch and claim progress.
Thanks. Probably would be good to try this, with the points, so points for grades I think you're saying.
Will see how I feel on Saturday. Might avoid the temptation to lap the soft-touch and claim progress.
In reply to beardy mike:
Someone may have already said this but don't neglect the mental side of climbing. You can probably already redpoint 7b. It is not just the fear of falling (although that evidently is important), it is a lot more complex than that. Doing a few "falls" where you are actually jumping off is not the same climbing all guns blazing where there is very limited chance you will make it but you don't think about it whatsoever until you are either in the air or have done the route (or are at a rest). Everyone needs to practice climbing like that if you want to climb anywhere near your limit. Easier said than done though .
Someone may have already said this but don't neglect the mental side of climbing. You can probably already redpoint 7b. It is not just the fear of falling (although that evidently is important), it is a lot more complex than that. Doing a few "falls" where you are actually jumping off is not the same climbing all guns blazing where there is very limited chance you will make it but you don't think about it whatsoever until you are either in the air or have done the route (or are at a rest). Everyone needs to practice climbing like that if you want to climb anywhere near your limit. Easier said than done though .
1
In reply to snoop6060:
Yeah - I have a game for that one - belayer doesn't take. I'm thinking of combining it on the soon to come partner chooses your route for you for double jeopardy mayhem.
Yeah - I have a game for that one - belayer doesn't take. I'm thinking of combining it on the soon to come partner chooses your route for you for double jeopardy mayhem.
In reply to beardy mike:
Even then, it can be easy to give up a bit, just make a move for the next hold and take a planned fall. I did that last week, and I see others do it, so it's not just me.
Always question yourself after a fall. Did you really go for that next hold with full commitment, and did you really want to stay on?
> Yeah - I have a game for that one - belayer doesn't take.
Even then, it can be easy to give up a bit, just make a move for the next hold and take a planned fall. I did that last week, and I see others do it, so it's not just me.
Always question yourself after a fall. Did you really go for that next hold with full commitment, and did you really want to stay on?
In reply to beardy mike:
We have a game whilst on trips and at the crag for this.
If you say take, watch me or anything negative like that on an onsight (or you purposely slump or jump off). You carry all the ropes, everyone's bags, everything back to the car. This was entertaining whilst up a makidromo recently, its about an hours walk . Fortunately i didn't lose that day. I did end up falling off about 15 times though.
We have a game whilst on trips and at the crag for this.
If you say take, watch me or anything negative like that on an onsight (or you purposely slump or jump off). You carry all the ropes, everyone's bags, everything back to the car. This was entertaining whilst up a makidromo recently, its about an hours walk . Fortunately i didn't lose that day. I did end up falling off about 15 times though.
1
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
100% true. And the answer is probably no quite a lot of the time for me and i'd guess most people.
Jumping off / giving up / slumping. Always best to give yourself a hard time when you do this.
> Always question yourself after a fall. Did you really go for that next hold with full commitment, and did you really want to stay on?
100% true. And the answer is probably no quite a lot of the time for me and i'd guess most people.
Jumping off / giving up / slumping. Always best to give yourself a hard time when you do this.
Post edited at 14:37
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Yeah it's definitely worth pushing yourself to climb till you drop. Have done it in the past and must admit I don't do it that often now and you are right you can usually get a bolt further than you thought you could. I'm kinda not looking forward to that week. Alas I have a lifetime of sandbags stored up for me...
Yeah it's definitely worth pushing yourself to climb till you drop. Have done it in the past and must admit I don't do it that often now and you are right you can usually get a bolt further than you thought you could. I'm kinda not looking forward to that week. Alas I have a lifetime of sandbags stored up for me...
In reply to beardy mike:
And then you've got to tame the fear of clip-drop <shudders>.
> I'm kinda not looking forward to that week.
And then you've got to tame the fear of clip-drop <shudders>.
In reply to snoop6060:
Exactly. That's why I think the best way to train yourself to give 100%, is to redpoint something VERY hard (for you). You'll get sick of falling off, and then you'll start to put some real effort in.
> Jumping off / giving up / slumping. Always best to give yourself a hard time when you do this.
Exactly. That's why I think the best way to train yourself to give 100%, is to redpoint something VERY hard (for you). You'll get sick of falling off, and then you'll start to put some real effort in.
In reply to beardy mike:
Some of the things I've tried recently at the bouldering wall, all of which have been quite enjoyable:
- Continuous Intensity Repetitions. 2 sets of 10 problems at around flash level, 2 minutes rest. Each session add one problem and reduce rest interval by 15sec. ( idea from here - http://www.climbstrong.com/articles/20131021 ).
- Threshold Bouldering. Maximum effort at about 2 grades beyond your limit. 15 minutes per problem, then move on. I usually work on about 3 problems.
- Linked Bouldering Circuits. eg up V2, down V1, up V2, down V1. 6 sets. 1:2 Work to Rest ratio. Felt like my forearms were going to explode.
Some of the things I've tried recently at the bouldering wall, all of which have been quite enjoyable:
- Continuous Intensity Repetitions. 2 sets of 10 problems at around flash level, 2 minutes rest. Each session add one problem and reduce rest interval by 15sec. ( idea from here - http://www.climbstrong.com/articles/20131021 ).
- Threshold Bouldering. Maximum effort at about 2 grades beyond your limit. 15 minutes per problem, then move on. I usually work on about 3 problems.
- Linked Bouldering Circuits. eg up V2, down V1, up V2, down V1. 6 sets. 1:2 Work to Rest ratio. Felt like my forearms were going to explode.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
For me that approach can work to a certain extent, but if the route is genuinely too hard i get the falls ingrained into my brain (maybe even muscle memory) and it all becomes a bit counter productive after too many falls. Though occasional 2 inches of progress can be rewarding .
2 things I try and do always.
1) never work a route on a top rope if I am gonna redpoint it (I do top rope routes but just leave it at that). Top ropes get in the way and it doesn't really prepare me properly for a lead.
2) If someone has got the clips in something hard, take a free burn. Just go all out guns blazing until you fall, pat yourself on the back regardless of how high you got (well, unless you didnt get to the first bolt and hurt yourself!). I did this at suirana for a day, clips in every route at the crag. Just went down the crag, asked politely, ignored the grade and climbed until I was flying. I officially did zero routes (turns out they were all quite hard). But it was a successful day for sure, didn't bottle it once. Got closest i've ever got to flashing a 7c.
For me that approach can work to a certain extent, but if the route is genuinely too hard i get the falls ingrained into my brain (maybe even muscle memory) and it all becomes a bit counter productive after too many falls. Though occasional 2 inches of progress can be rewarding .
2 things I try and do always.
1) never work a route on a top rope if I am gonna redpoint it (I do top rope routes but just leave it at that). Top ropes get in the way and it doesn't really prepare me properly for a lead.
2) If someone has got the clips in something hard, take a free burn. Just go all out guns blazing until you fall, pat yourself on the back regardless of how high you got (well, unless you didnt get to the first bolt and hurt yourself!). I did this at suirana for a day, clips in every route at the crag. Just went down the crag, asked politely, ignored the grade and climbed until I was flying. I officially did zero routes (turns out they were all quite hard). But it was a successful day for sure, didn't bottle it once. Got closest i've ever got to flashing a 7c.
1
In reply to snoop6060:
Indoors yes, outdoors not necessarily. If I feel like I want to experiment with one or two moves maybe on the crux, and if that's a few feet above the last bolt it's not an efficient way to work it (unless the rope get in the way and makes it not possible). But when I'm happy with my beta (ish), I get on lead asap.
Always. Did the same coincidentally in Siurana on my last trip in October, just fell after the last bolt going for the chains, but really enjoyed it, and was only a little disappointed in hindsight. After 2 days driving, straight to the crag, in full sun, at my onsight grade limit, it's hard to be unhappy with that.
> 1) never work a route on a top rope if I am gonna redpoint it (I do top rope routes but just leave it at that). Top ropes get in the way and it doesn't really prepare me properly for a lead.
Indoors yes, outdoors not necessarily. If I feel like I want to experiment with one or two moves maybe on the crux, and if that's a few feet above the last bolt it's not an efficient way to work it (unless the rope get in the way and makes it not possible). But when I'm happy with my beta (ish), I get on lead asap.
> 2) If someone has got the clips in something hard, take a free burn.
Always. Did the same coincidentally in Siurana on my last trip in October, just fell after the last bolt going for the chains, but really enjoyed it, and was only a little disappointed in hindsight. After 2 days driving, straight to the crag, in full sun, at my onsight grade limit, it's hard to be unhappy with that.
1
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