UKC

Amphetamines and history

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 ehole 10 Nov 2016
Did some of our climbing heroes take amphetamines to help get strong? Should this influence the way we consider routes in the past, and help with discussions into why standards appear to have plateaued despite improvements in equipment, training and funding?

If this has been a topic for discussion before I'm sorry to be repetitive.
3
 Jon Stewart 10 Nov 2016
In reply to ehole:
Taking speed doesn't help athletic performance in the long term - it has a short term effect that could help in situations requiring great endurance (used in the past in emergencies by alpinists? some of the 'old guard' have stories no doubt). But it has a negative long-term effect on health and thus performance. Possibly, used very judiciously, you could get more out of each training session with a bit of speed (the way bodybuilders use stimulants), but I don't know if there's any evidence that this is on balance a successful strategy when you consider how much you'll lose out in terms of sleeping and eating healthy.

And I don't know why you think standards of plateaued? Even if that was true, isn't a decline in climbers using wizz probably the least likely explanation you could think of?
Post edited at 21:14
OP ehole 10 Nov 2016
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Yes all good points.

So in summary, you don't know if amphetamines were used by some of our heroes, but think that if they had been it wouldn't have helped much.

And regarding a pleateau in performance, it's not my opinion that this is occurring, but something I have read many times e.g. Steve McClure articles and such.

Any other thoughts welcomed.
3
 stp 10 Nov 2016
In reply to ehole:

I think recreational drugs are used by climbers recreationally and that's pretty much all, with just the very occasional exception. So they have had no bearing on standards in this country at all.

I think the plateau in this country (it's certainly not world wide) is partly down the the fact the UK had some of the best climbers in the world who set the bar so high that it's taken many years for later generations just to catch up. Coupled with that this country has very little rock left for the development of hard routes and even the few hard routes there are are often problematic with things like poor weather, seepage etc.

That plateau may be coming to an end though with climbers like Will Bosi, the Dawson brothers, Jim Pope, Aiden Roberts etc. all making a great start and still very young. But of course despite such talent there is still the problem of lack of rock. Maybe the best of their talent will be used in competitions, or abroad. Tom Bolger has a pretty good tick list since moving to Spain.
 Jon Stewart 10 Nov 2016
In reply to ehole:

> So in summary, you don't know if amphetamines were used by some of our heroes, but think that if they had been it wouldn't have helped much.

Yep!

> And regarding a pleateau in performance, it's not my opinion that this is occurring, but something I have read many times e.g. Steve McClure articles and such.

OK, I don't follow who's-done-what closely, but it always seems to me like projects that have resisted years of trying fall to talented young lads, and that people are bolting harder and harder sport routes, etc. There must be some sort of 'law' that predicts how progress at the top level of any type of athletics once 'technology' (e.g. training etc) allows people to really nudge up against the barriers of what's possible.

 james mann 10 Nov 2016
In reply to ehole:

Didn't the Burgess brothers give a policeman friend of theirs amphetamines on the way to the summit of Mont Blanc to give him a bit of a boost. He was apparently very pissed off when discovered what it was. Did the trick though.

James
 Robert Durran 10 Nov 2016
In reply to ehole:

> Did some of our climbing heroes take amphetamines to help get strong?

Not to get strong, but apparently used by Heckmair on the FA of the Eiger N. Face, by Patey to facilitate prolific after work climbing, and, I am told, relatively recently by British alpinists in extremis in the greater ranges.
 jsmcfarland 11 Nov 2016
In reply to ehole:

In what world have standards plateau'd !? Every single grade of every single type of climbing has gone up in recent years, and continues to go up...
 Doug 11 Nov 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:

Didn't Buhl use it on the FA of Nanga Parbat? There's also a mention of its use in an article by Alex MacIntyre, possibly reprinted in the biography by John Porter (think the Burgess twins were involved).
 Tricky Dicky 11 Nov 2016
In reply to ehole:
Don't forget that amphetamines aren't illegal in some countries, so their use wouldn't be frowned upon. When I was in Alaska you could buy them in the supermarket
Post edited at 10:07
 Lemony 11 Nov 2016
In reply to ehole:

Seems to me that whilst amphetamines might help with alpinism, for rock climbing the PEDs of choice are more likely to be about weight control and recovery. Being able to train longer and harder and then pop a diet pill to drop a few pounds quickly without losing strength would seem the perfect run up to a hard project.

It seems pretty likely that at least some top end climbers have used pharmaceutical aids and unless they're competing there's no reason to think that they wouldn't be now.
 snoop6060 11 Nov 2016
In reply to ehole:
The amount of shit jerry moffat used to talk, you'd think he was doing base daily

Think shark actually asked Ben moon in the video interview if he was on speed when he did Hubble. Ben's face Is funny. Erm, what?
Post edited at 10:26
OP ehole 11 Nov 2016
In reply to snoop6060:

Cheers Snoop. This reply is the closest so far. While I realise my topic could be considered unconstructive, I also feel like the truth is out there. Legitimacy of ascents occasionally get questioned, but as far as I'm aware the use of PEDs doesn't. I'd be willing to bet that some of the recent autobiographies have been edited-down to miss out some of the more interesting details.

Andy Pollitt, I loved 'Punks in the Gym', any thoughts?
 marsbar 11 Nov 2016
In reply to Lemony:

Speed was prescribed as a slimming drug to bored housewives in the 1960s
Jim Perrin wrote about using "whizz" on a solo of Coronation Street. It's a terrifying/funny read that shows the dangers of such use - were that not obvious beforehand.

Pretty sure Patey's use is "documented" in a few places, certainly by Bonington if I recall, though it's been a very long time since I read any of his writing.

Best sticking to pork pies and Guinness or whole meal bread and honey


 Offwidth 12 Nov 2016
In reply to ehole:

Plenty of rock climbers have used amphetamines to control weight and plenty have used them recreationally. The alpine staying awake user group would be dwarfed by both of these other user groups. Its illegal (and in competition terms its cheating) so its no big surprise people don't talk much.
cb294 12 Nov 2016
In reply to Doug:

Yes, it is mentioned in Buhl´s book by the man himself (same for Heckmair and co on the Eiger). Apparently, amphetamines were taken by pretty much everyone attempting high peaks in the 1950s to 1970s. Not illegal at the time, and widely used by the military a few years earlier (called Stuka pills on the German side during WWII) and later (by US pilots during the Vietnam war), mainly to keep pilots and tank commanders awake. No wonders this spilled over in other fields where something stronger than a triple espresso would make a huge difference....
CB
 bouldery bits 12 Nov 2016
In reply to ehole:
I'm not 100% certain that amphetamines are the most useful PEDs for hard rock climbing.

Clenbuterol perhaps?
Post edited at 19:45
 stp 12 Nov 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

> In what world have standards plateau'd !?

British rock climbing.

Hubble at 9a was established in 1990. Since then there have only been two ascents harder than 9a. Violent New Breed by John Gaskins and Overshadow by Steve McClure. Mutation is a possible third. So a maximum of just three ascents in 26 years. Even if Steve Mac does his project next year these can't be considered as an increase in standards because they're more like one off rare ascents rather than an overall increase in standards. I think that qualifies as a plateau.

 Jon Stewart 12 Nov 2016
In reply to Ghastlyrabbitfat:

> Best sticking to pork pies and Guinness or whole meal bread and honey

I've not read the Jim Perrin piece, but given the choice of going climbing on wizz or pork pies and Guiness, and go with the wizz, thanks! Sounds considerably safer and more likely to result in success than getting fat and pissed to me!
 Michael Gordon 13 Nov 2016
In reply to stp:

I guess it depends how many ascents need to be made before it's not just 'one off, rare ascents'. 'Overall standards' (in top climbers) have definitely improved significantly in terms of numbers of onsights (E7/8 ascents). Headpoints less so, with perhaps only MacLeod's routes advancing the edge since 2000 or so - I guess it will take a while for new generations to catch up and make their own marks?
 Goucho 13 Nov 2016
In reply to ehole:

> Did some of our climbing heroes take amphetamines to help get strong? Should this influence the way we consider routes in the past, and help with discussions into why standards appear to have plateaued despite improvements in equipment, training and funding?

> If this has been a topic for discussion before I'm sorry to be repetitive.

I don't know about performance enhancing in everyday terms - although recreationaly in the 70's it was widespread in my sphere.

I've used amphetamines twice in the alps in situations of extremis, both while engaged in epic retreats in storms - Eiger NF, and Brouillard Face of Mont Blanc.

When you've gone beyond running on empty, they can give a kick of adrenalin and energy.

 george mc 13 Nov 2016
In reply to Goucho:

http://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS014067360315060X.pdf

Interesting article covering their use in military environments and their pros and cons. Applicable to alpine climbing situations.
 marsbar 13 Nov 2016
In reply to Goucho:

Did you suffer coming down (from the drug not the hill!)?
 Duncan Bourne 13 Nov 2016
In reply to ehole:

It is quite possible that climbers of the past used speed (and canabis and alcohol and probably magic mushrooms too) in recreational capacity but I doubt if it would have improved climbing significantly. I would argue that the more important factors in rising standards were improved training techniques and improved gear, not just in protection for trad climbing but sticky rubber on boots. As with anything one does initially standards rise quite rapidly as new techniques are learned and brain and muscles adapt. Eventually it will naturally slow down as the limit as to what is possible using existing training and gear is reached. You only have to look at records in other sports to see that for the most part achievments are rising in smaller incrementals than in the past when training was new or not so much understood.

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...