UKC

So I'm thinking of upgrading from my Flys. I've used both for drytooling, but neither on ice yet (so haven't really swung either in anger... only in mid air or bits of wood). So far it seems that th Nomics are lighter but the Switches more robust (especially on stein holds) and have a bit more 'glove room' on the bottom grip. Any thoughts or experiences? Would the switches last longer? Anything else to consider?

In reply to mmmhumous:

Never had nomics. Have a pair of ergo's for tooling and they are solid.
I upgraded my vipers last year and got switches simply because of the doubts about durability on the nomics. It would have been nice to get nomics as then all my picks and hammers would be interchangeable, but I did not see it as worth the risk.
As you say the switch has lots of room on the handle, so good if you have big hands.

Andy

In reply to mmmhumous:

I guess there designed as the go to tool for pure ice climbing, the only thing they lack is a spike for plunging during approaches. I have also heard that the heads start to rattle on them after a while when they have been used lots on mixed ground.

The Apex is good alternative but the only downside in comparison is that it's much heavier!

In reply to Michael Morrell:

I use nomics on everything , drytool, ice, mixed and general mountain use and never felt the need for anything else, I've also used switch , I find them a lot heavier (I think the metal goes down through the handle where as the nomic handle doesnt) they also didn't feel as natural ie didn't swing as easily and felt bulky and awkward on mixed and drytool stuff. My no mics are the original model so no little spikes on the handle like the newer versions however I've never felt the need for it anyway so never been an issue. Please remember though this is just a personal opinion and I'm sure others will disagree. Also my nomic are solid, no wobbles or loose parts so I have no desire to change to anything else

In reply to mmmhumous:

Other options would be fuels and tech machines

In reply to mmmhumous:

Maybe it helps to hear from another person that (quoting climber34neil): "I use nomics on everything , drytool, ice, mixed and general mountain use and never felt the need for anything else. [...] Also my nomic are solid, no wobbles or loose parts so I have no desire to change to anything else". Perfectly applies to myself as well.

In reply to mmmhumous:

Nomic are amazing axes. The only other axes that I'd be temped by at the moment are the BD Fuels, but to be honest Nomics still feel like a more balanced. The only issue with the nomics, and it's a total nightmare, is your axe heads will start creaking/wobbling after a while. My Nomics have just started doing it after a route I did last week. That's them on their 4th season though, however I am light and don't put as much force through them as many others. I do know someone who used Nomics once at Newtyle and sent them back after the head movement started after 1 session. It's something to consider.

In reply to mmmhumous:
I use Nomics for ice and mixed and they're great and no head issues after two seasons. I don't use them for tooling though - have Ergos for that and they've just started creaking occasionally after several seasons of regular tooling.

In reply to Misha:

My last pair of Nomics got head movement and started creaking after one season (I'm 90kg for ref). I was doing a lot of drytooling at the time. On my second pair now. Nomics are amazing for ice but I think if I was doing a lot of drytooling again then I'd be buying a second pair of axes with that specifically in mind. Eg the BD Fusion 2s or maybe the E-Climb axes. More expense up front but probably better longevity and less outlay in the long term. Also less faff switching picks all the time.

In reply to mmmhumous:

Thanks for the replies, keep them coming.

I've ad a play witht he Apex on both ice and mixed... quite liked them on ice, but didn't get on with them when drytooling. Didn't like the way the tech machines felt in my hand at all: the ergonomics just din't work with my hands.

For the BDs, is there much difference between the fuels and fusions? I've picked one of the them up in a shop (can't remember which) for a quick swing but only played with the cobras from BD in anger so far.

So far for the switch vs the nomics, it sounds like it's a trade off between extra weight vs creaky picks. Anyone had any problems with the switch? As I'm usually round the 100kg mark, burliness seems a good option so I'm airing towards the switch if I'm honest.

In reply to mmmhumous:

Fusions are poor for ice climbing but great for mixed. The original orange coloured Fusions were particularly awful on ice. The Fuels were BD's attempt at making an axe better suited to ice. Only know what people have said on here about them. Doesn't sound like they've got the weighting quite right but then maybe they'll be more robust.

In reply to mmmhumous:

Had Apex's for a season, really good axe but I decided to upgrade them as I got a good deal on a pair of Nomics.

I used the Nomics for a bit of indoor dry tooling through the summer when it was too rainy for rock climbing and then around 8 routes before the head came loose and started moving around 2-3mm up and down. Sent them back and got lucky to get them replaced, immediately sold them and bought Switches instead.

As honest as I can be, the Switch is not as nice a tool to use and the Nomic has a nicer swing in my opinion. The handle on the Switch is bigger and will need to be taped/sugru'd up if you happen to have fairy hands like me, but once you do this it's not too much of a problem and the handle on the Switch is far burlier than the Nomic. The double rivets at both ends are really confidence inspiring and look very unlikely to ever have any problems.

The weight difference for me is quite noticeable, even with the pick weights off (found these useful on the Apex but too much added weight for swinging about all day on the Switch). DMM picks tend to wear down quickly in my experience but that might just be me being a bit gung-ho and hitting rocks too much.

Even though it's heavier, and needs some DIY to get it right and the swing takes a bit of getting used to, it is definitely a tool which has been made to last a long time (as with most of DMM's kit) and if you're looking for something like that then you won't go far wrong.

In reply to mmmhumous:

Ok I'm going to give you my opinion but please remember I'm coming from a different angle being a proper punter and a low grade winter climber.

On ice even in low grades ( IIIs and IV ) the nomics have been the best tools I've used, their weight, clearance and general solid feel is fantastic. But for me there is a major trade off and that's plunging. Coming from owning a pair of quarks there was a huge difference and one day last season where plunging was needed to get to the base of the climb I lost all confidence in them and for me they where a pita and enough for me to not use them again.

I don't know if your profile is still correct and you still climb in the mid grades but it's something I'd consider as for me plunging is quite a major part of my winter climbing.

As for other recommendations I'm a bit out of touch with new axes but I'm a big fan of the BD cobras which have got much cheaper recently.

Good luck with your choice.

cheers

Gaz

In reply to Gazlynn:

Yes, agree with Gaz in that it's worth keeping the Flys for low and mid grade stuff. I've kept my Quarks (great tools - and they're so light, modular etc!) for the same reason.

In reply to Tricadam:

In reply to Gazlynn:

The fly's aren't going anywhere. They're great all rounders and more than happy with them upto IV/4. I'm looking for a second pair mainly for tooling and mixed but may also be used on 'harder' pure ice routes.

In reply to mmmhumous:

I reviewed the Switches three years ago: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=6189 since then I've used them on some mid grade Lakes mixed and ice routes and have been very happy with them for that. You don't NEED tools that technical for doing IV,5s but they don't have many disadvantages - hopeless at pounding warthogs would be one! But then my more 'classic' Vipers aren't that great at hammering either!

The failure rate of Nomics is pretty alarming - hasn't happened to anyone I know with them, but it really appears to be a thing.

In reply to mmmhumous:
As discussed already by various posts above, the general consensus is that for:

Ice - nomics win (weight and swing)

Mixed - BD fusions / switches (burly and won't break)

With regards to the nomic issue, I consider myself one of the lucky ones. 3 years of use and no creaking heads (I'm around the 85kg mark). Maybe I'm not cranking hard enough. If you do go for nomics, try and get them from a continental dealer as the UK distributor has been known to be funny about replacing tools with creaking heads.

In reply to J_Trottet:

I'm on my second pair of Nomics because of wobbly heads as stated in my above post. I'm fast coming to the conclusion that I should probably buy a second pair of axes specifically for mixed and drytooling before it happens again. Thereby preserving my Nomics just for ice. Seems a bit extravagant but if my Nomics become wobbly tomorrow then I'm going shopping for a new pair sooner or later anyway. I really like my Nomics on ice but have lost confidence in their robustness.

There doesn't seem a huge selection of alternatives though, which is why I probably ended up buying another pair of Nomics after the first pair failed. The Fuels would have been a good option but I would have liked a hammer. Bulldogs and similar have got me out trouble a few times so it's good to be able to bang something in when I'm forced to.

The Tech Machines sounded a good alternative but the hand grip feels too beefy and offset for me. I like how the Nomics allow a middle grip where I use just my index finger above the trig rest.

Right now I opting for the Fusion 2s. I've used a mate's pair to drytool with and remember they felt really solid. The hammer looks pretty small but at least it's there. They sound hard work when it comes to ice though so certainly not a genuine all round alternative. The DMM axes sound ok at everything without being brilliant at anything particular.

In reply to mmmhumous:

Cheers all. In terms of how prevalent the creaky pick are on nomics, I've tooled on 6 different pairs in the last few months. Out of the 12 tools, 3 we creaky, one alarmingly so. For reference, I'm over 100kg, a punter and probably like torquing/stein pulls a little too much.

I'll see if I can get my hands on some of the black diamond tools for a comparison against the Switches. In the meantime, my Flys have just received a pre-Rjukan upgrade of additional rests to allow hand switching and some burly home-made grips.

In reply to mmmhumous:
Personally I wouldn't get the nomics. Given your weight and requirements I don't think they are burly enough. Quarks are also fairly fragile especially with regards to the upper grip rest, and the butter like metal they use in the heads.

Unless you intend to lead grade VI and up (or say proper WI5 ish). I don't think you'll notice much if any advantage to the nomic compared to an axe like a black diamond viper. For uk mountaineering there are some advantages to an axe more like the Viper as it plunges and has a spike on the bottom. Sure you can do away with these and I do agree its better to make the hard climbing easier and the easy climbing harder than vice versa. However a leash less axe like the viper should be more than sufficient up until you are getting pretty technical.

Also what were then thinking at petzl with regards to the nomic lanyard attachment system. It makes no sense to me.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

got shot of nomics cause can't clip lanyards effectively

In reply to mmmhumous:

I recently replaced my wobbly nomics with a pair of Cassin X dreams. From a couple of tooling sessions and a trip to an ice wall, these are as good as the nomic and look much more robust. They also have a proper spike on the handle. Cheap too at £140 each from berg something

In reply to 3leggeddog:

Those eclimb axes seem pretty popular also (and not too pricey)

https://www.e-climb.com/en/24-cryo-ice-axes

In reply to the thread in general:

There doesn't seem to be much love for Grivel axes. What's happened?

In reply to galpinos:
Tech machines are good tools, but the handles are tiny, to small for most hands.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

They're pretty crap on ice I hear although excellent (and rebust) for hard drytooling.

In reply to lanky:


Got to say, I disagree. My hands are average (I generally take a medium or a large in bloke gloves) and they suit me fine, whether with thin lead gloves or said gloves with Dachsteins over the top. The grip does feel pretty different to other axes I've tried though. For me, it's good different, but I can imagine for others it isn't. Either way, try hanging off them and see what it feels like. They might just suit.

In reply to John Kelly:
Add a loop of 4mm cord through the hole in the spike. Might not work on the L setting but works fine on M or S.

In reply to Misha:

IIRC the hole is located middle of handle, actually under your grip -4mm, I did give it a go, but not for me, quarks are a handy bit of kit, light modular spike with clippable hole, works for me
John

In reply to John Kelly:

The upper grip / trig rest is / was very fragile on the current gen quarks. I fitted it to my last gen quarks and it broke very easily - even climbing water ice. I also know other people that had the same problem with it fitted to the current gen quarks.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Could believe that - not really doing enough winter to comment on how tough

In reply to John Kelly:


There's also another hole lower down though, behind the bottom grip rest. Everybody I know uses this to thread cord to. I only use the hole in handle when clipping to my axes at a belay. I would never clip leashes to the hole in the handle when climbing as they would interfere with my grip.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

on the nomic?

https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Ice-axes/NOMIC#.WEfVbPmLTIU

i only recall hole in the head piece and another in handle

am i missing something

In reply to John Kelly:



There's a hole in the shaft, on the current version at least - you have to take of the lower rest to get to it (but any cord threaded through should be able to poke out through the slot in the griprest when it's put back on)

In reply to Mr. Lee:
its is a bit odd that there isn't a standard attachment point for lanyard clip on the nomics though. Threading cord is easy enough but not really ideal IMO.

The majority of tech axes have a spike with a hole in IMO, those which don't have a spike still tend to have a hole at the bottom of the handle to clip.

In reply to mmmhumous:

Petzl Nomics - prolly the second best ice tool on the market IMHO (for ice). natural swing. too bad they seem to have durability problems (gen2 & 3 handles and all gens heads). (Have used all gens).

BD Fusion 2 (green) - heavy and quite robust plus good for hard mixed, can be made to be better on ice by using the Fusion Ice pick (or similar aftermarket)... pinky-rest not so good unless you have tiny fingers. Pinky issue can be resolved by using the rest from Fuel. Weight to some extent and weight distribution can also be changed to be more favourable, by grinding down the hammer. (my tools).

BD Fuel - comes stock with Fusion ice picks and also a tad lighter than Fusions (due to being shorter and also missing the hammer). so reasonably good on ice, but behind Nomic. missing the hammer, so not so stellar on traditional mixed. (have used)

DMM Switch - felt heavy, kind of like the Fusion 2's, but preferred my Fusions more. most likely quite robust, but also really heavy. (have tried)

Cassin X-Dream - best ice tool for ice and also even better for (hard) mixed. natural swing and perfect weight distribution. easily configured to suit all needs (3 different picks with different angles and also can change the handle angle). quite a few of my friends (mainly really good climbers) have switched to these and thus far no problems on durability (1 to 2 seasons of hard use). Were I now on the market for new tools, these would prolly be the one... But due to the household having a few other BD tools, I guess will stick to them. (have used)

AA K Icer - quite good swing and felt light (but perhaps not in absolute terms). really supporting handles. quite cheap. all in all a reasonable contender, but again not readily available in UK AFAIK (have used).

Grivels - not used the latest models, so can't comment... I still think the picks are the same soft alloy, so bend easily but can also be fixed simply by bending them back.


Also worth thinking about, is the price of picks. Petzl ones are quite spendy. BD somewhat cheaper and about the same as Cassins. Not sure on DMMs or Grivels. Aftermarkets are naturally an option (Krukonogi are good but spendy, polish ones cheaper and not that far off when it comes to durability).

Oh, and one other thing to consider about the picks... BD hasn't changed picks since the X-15... Petzl modded them (so some issues). DMM has changed the picks a few times, as has Cassin. Grivel keeps constantly changing their picks.

In reply to HeMa:

As said above, I am impressed by my x dreams, early days yet. The swing is identical to the nomic, I climbed a route using one of each to confirm this.

I bought some aftermarket picks from Poland, kuznia spell, excellent service and swift delivery. The steel looks good to the naked eye, time will tell. At half the price of a manufacturers pick, there is a lot of room for forgiveness.

In reply to mmmhumous:

Link below

http://www.kuzniaszpeju.pl/

In reply to 3leggeddog:

Them being the polish aftermarket picks I mentioned above...

And yes, thus far they seem about the same as Krukonogi picks...

And a lot better than stock pics from at least BD.

In reply to John Kelly:
Agree the hole in the handle is only useful for clipping tools onto the harness when abseiling for example and even then it doesn't work for all krabs. What I meant was a much smaller hole in the metal spike at the end of the handle.

In reply to Misha: I'd forgotten about that, I did have a go but wasn't that impressed, vaguely recall thinking the radius of hole and thin cord felt wrong at that time, maybe I was overcautious, I often am.

In reply to John Kelly:

http://coldthistle.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/nomics-1st-2nd-and-3rd-generation...

I fitted cord to my nomics this way and never had an trouble with it, just made the loop small enough to clip a little carabiner in to it and never thought anything else of it.

Was fine with the grip set to small and medium but not sure if it'd make any difference on the large setting.

In reply to Nath93:

I guess I thought this level of modification to £300 worth of tools was a bit much, also not confident that the mod was strong enough. Issue about handles also put me off as I could not afford to replace
The quark was probably a better tool for me at that time, leashes and useful spike
Accept the Nomic is awesome leashless tool but maybe just to technical for me

In reply to John Kelly:
Horses for courses, if you mostly do grade IV-V you don't really need Nomics. 4mm cord is around 4kN I think, reckon your leashes would break before the cord does if you were to fall onto your leashes. Main purpose of leashes is of course to stop you dropping your tool irretrievably and 4kN should be sufficient for that!

In reply to Misha:

I'm having a good day if I get up Grd4

In reply to John Kelly:

Hardly a modification though? They come pre drilled with the hole to be used for that reason, it's a two minute job that requires less than a meter of 4mm cord.

It's not the handle on the Nomic you'd need to worry about, it's the head coming loose and the creaking noises they all eventually make. Never had any issues with the modular handle, probably one of the most comfortable tools of it's type I've used in anger.

Quark is definitely the better all rounder, but similar durability issues put me off getting a pair of those as well. Although I've got mates that use and abuse them every winter and never had a problem.

In reply to Nath93:

Petzl now suggest adding the loop, I wouldn't therefore call that a modification
Head/handle yes my error
Quarks, just haven't done enough over last 5 years to rag them, good tool for me
John

In reply to mmmhumous:

I know of people who've added a second rivet to their Nomic head. Obviously only worth doing if they've started creaking and Petzl have told you to sod off. Worth noting that the head does not extend very far down the shaft so the 2nd rivet hole needs to be drilled quite close to the first.

In reply to Misha:

I fell on my leashes a couple of years ago and cord on both my Nomics tore. The leashes were undamaged. I think this was due to a combination of the cord being a couple of years old and my grips being set to the large size, which maybe creates a high stress point where the cord is squeezed. I now replace my cord every year. If my axes are forming any sort of a belay then I make sure to clip to the hole in the handle and never the cord.

In reply to DaveHK:

It's one of these things I don't understand why Petzl can't just sort it out. It's obviously happening often enough that they can't afford to replace every tool that goes creaky but will do nothing to try and fix the problem.

I spoke to a guy from Lyon on the phone when it happened to mine and they reckon it's because it would change the weight and swing and no one would buy it, apparently!

In reply to Nath93:

Back in the 90's I exerienced the same problem with Charlet Pulsars, single rivet, sent them back end each season (3 years in a row).

Haven't used Petzl tools since.....

Stuart

In reply to Mr. Lee:
That's interesting. Yes I think the L setting pinches the cord. Totally agree re belays!

In reply to mmmhumous:

Well, further to my above comments the heads on my Nomics have again loosened. This pair lasted half a season. I've only been climbing ice as well, apart from a couple of easy days drytooling a while back. This time Petzl have totally lost my business. I think so long as Petzl continue to dominate the ice axe marketplace then their attitudes to these sorts of issues are not going to be addressed. My next pair of axes will be Cassin X-Dream as hearing a lot of good things about them.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

My Nomics are still ok but the Cassin tools look interesting. Would like to know how you get on with them.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

Sorry to hear that Lee, have Petzl agreed to repair or replace the nomics again?

If not, before you bin them you could consider replacing the head rivet with a bigger one, and backing it up with two other rivets to strengthen the whole system. I know someone who has done this custom rpair and it has worked well so far, but you do need some basic metal working skills and confidence in your ability to repair such a crucial piece of kit. You don't want to be thinking about the repair quality on your next lonely lead!

I've been using my nomics for 5 years on ice, mixed and dry tool without issue - infact I love them. When I heard about the nomic head problem it was always my plan to do the repair if mine started to rattle. If you are going to chuck them away then I would take them off you and get the work done here in Matlock. let me know

Though I'm delighted with my nomics I'm also interested the Cassin X Dream - please keep UKC posted on your experience with them.

Seasons greetings.........Jeff

In reply to Jeff Ingman:


Well, you could read my earlier post regarding numerous "modern" tools, X Dream being one of them.

In short, had I a few tools too many from BD camp... my tools would be the Cassin, best tool ever.

In reply to Jeff Ingman:


I've plenty of experience with semi-tubular rivets and some experience with very small solid rivets. I might be game if the appropriate rivet could be placed with a hammer, and also if I had advice on what size rivet in advance. Have drilled out semi-tubular rivets many times but not solid. My workmanship I think is pretty good and can certainly judge a decent rivet. If in doubt I'd drill it out a do it again. Advice welcome on whether I might be out of my depth

In reply to mmmhumous:

So managed to get my hands on both nomics and switches at the weekend to give them a proper H2H (Both fitted with stock T rated picks and no weights). As I've said above the switches fill my with more confidence when dry tooling. (While there's not much in it when hanging off them, when torquing or using steins, the burliness of the DMMs gave me more confidence).

In the ice wall, it was pretty much neck and neck when it came to hooking or hanging off the tools. When it came to placing the tools though, the nomics were significantly better... The petzls gave good sticks one the first swing at least 9 times out of 10. For the switches, it was more like 7 out of 10 swings, with the biggest difference being on brittle ice, (more dinner plating with the DMMs).

Looks like I'm leaning towards some reinforced nomics.

In reply to mmmhumous:
Go for the nomics Adam. !

In reply to Jeff Ingman:
Ive had my 1st gen. Nomics for 7-8 years, with just a few mixed/DT routes but hundreds of pitches on ice. In my opinion, from my usage, its a excellent tool and nothing BD has ever created (not to mention DMM) comes even close. Ive not really climbed with Grivel but they seem a good bet.

Since last season I predominantly climb with X-dream alpine. 4 reasons, the spike, the integrated mini hammer, the raving rewievs and the decent price on both the axe as well as spare blades. Im very happy with them and I dont climb any steep mixed/DT which they supposedly also are great at.
They climb steep ice like a dream and hooking and passing bulges are easier for me with these.

The downsides are that the build quality doesnt feel as sturdy as some and that I experienced massive ice shattering when I climbed at -20. (Maybe too light tools?) But these things are very subjective and maybe not so relevant.