UKC

Wow!!! I have to say I didn't give him a cat in hell's chance today. After that epic yesterday, and with Novak cruising past Nish in the other semi, I thought it would be a thrashing. Admittedly he wasn't at his best, but there was a point in the second set where he thought he could turn it round.

So Murray ends the season on a 24 match unbeaten streak, finishing up by beating the No 6, 5, 4, 3 and 2 in that order, to finish No 1 (neat symmetry! ). Got to be a cert for SPOTY, even if they run Trott and Kenny on a joint ticket.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

One word.

Grit?




Hope he does get SPOTY

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Have to confess that only a "bit of grit in my eye" prevented me beating you to the OP. I never thought I'd see the day. Such determination and belief in the face of a better rested and technically perfect opponent who has bested him for most of the past decade. Come on Andy!!!!

In reply to The Lemming:


Would be crazy if he didn't. Best British sportsman we've had for decades.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Fantastic to see a Scottish athlete as World no 1. What next? Scotland to win the cricket world cup by 2020.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Now, thats a huge call what about Steve Redgrave or a bit further back Seb Coe and its a bit hard to overlook Chris Hoy.

In reply to alastairmac:

He has a perfect 17-0 record in London this year, you'd almost say it was his home city

(Before anyone jumps on me, yes I am aware of how much he is doing for Dunblane with various projects.)

In reply to Indy:


Those are all magnificent athletes but Andy's achievements are stacking up pretty impressively. Tennis is on a different plane to cycling or rowing. The measure of his greatness is in the men he has succeeded: Federer, Nadal, Djokovic. Wow.

In reply to BnB:


That's pretty much my view.

In reply to Indy:

All great sportsmen of course, but Hoy and Redgreave were in far less competitive sports, and was Coe even the best British runner of his time ?

In reply to Chris the Tall:
35 years after he set it, Coe's world record 800m time in 1981 has still only been beaten by two men. That's pretty astounding. I think it's only his failure to land Olympic gold at the distance that detracts from his claim.

This is the most competitive era in the history of tennis. Murray adding year end no 1 and the tour finals to the Davis cup, 2 Olympic golds and 3 slams and 14 masters wins gives him as good a claim as any now to be the greatest British sportsman of all time.

Still can't believe he's done it...! Astounding.



Ps credit to ivan lendl- Murray's transformation in the second half of the year is testament to his influence.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

There will be pros an cons of any choice but to award the best sportsman for decades to a person that's been world number 1 for 2 weeks over the likes of Federer, Sampras or any number of other tennis greats who have spent 100's of weeks at number 1 is premature in my view.

As for Seb Coe is there really any argument that he is one of the greatest middle distance runners of all time?

In reply to Chris the Tall:


Coe was one of the greatest runners of any nationality of all time.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
If we're choosing one best British athlete, I'd go for Mo Farah, undisputed best competitive distance runner for the past 5 years.

I think Andy's achievements are amazing, he's been top of his sport for the past 6 months

In reply to stevieb:



These are special times for UK sport

In reply to stevieb:


I think Mo Farah is fantastic, and it is obviously difficult to make comparisons across eras and distances, but no major world records and has he been lucky to be around at a time with no really serious rivals? So I'd still go for Coe, though the fact that Farah holds the the British 1500m record does give pause for thought..........

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Murray's greatest weakness is obvious.


He's not English.

In reply to Indy:


If you're going that far back Daley Thompson out shines them all.

Played football for Mansfield Town too.

In reply to Chris the Tall:


30 unforced errors to Murray's 15!

In reply to Robert Durran:

I was mainly comparing with other current uk sportsman. Murray, McIlroy and Froome have all been worlds best in pretty major sports, and Mark Cavendish may be the best ever at what he does.
But Mo has been worlds best for a long time. I knew mo didn't have any world records, he wins the competitive races, but I have just seen he's not even close to the world records. Coe was amazing, but never as dominant.

In reply to stevieb:


Mo doesn't have an Ovett.......

In reply to The Lemming:


Maybe he can dig back in his family tree and find an much needed English relative. ( no matter how removed)

In reply to Chris the Tall:
A fantastic result, well done that man.

But did you not want the umpire to severely punish those prats that continually shout out just before points
( As if some nonentity shouting out 'come on Andy ' is by any measure helping him win)
He must have wanted to wrap a racquet round the head of dickheads that shout out ,particularly on match points.

They only shout out late so that they can say 'that was me' when it's played back.
A lifetime ban, would only be good start to a fitting punishment.

EOR

In reply to stevieb:

Cav is the best the world has ever seen in his discipline, and you can't say the same for Murray. But as much as I like cycling, I have to say that I believe it is much harder to get to the top in tennis, and that even in cycling Cav speciality is just one niche.

What I love about Murray is that he just never gives up - on a point, on a game, on a match, on getting to the top. His work ethic is extraordinary, as is his physical fitness. Incredible that he can still play with such intensity at the end of a really tough week, at the end of a long season

In reply to Jim C:

Not as bad as all of the grunting that goes on in the women's game errrr..... shirley?

In reply to winhill:

Including a couple of absolute howlers - most unusual. But I sometimes think the term 'unforced error' is a misnomer at this level - if you don't try and win the point, the ball will just keep coming back. But here is where I think we can tell the players today are a level above previous generations - it's not just that they are hitting the ball harder and faster, it's that they are hitting the lines, and just inside the lines, more often. And then maintaining that power and accuracy for longer. I won't argue that Murray is the least of the Big 4, but there is still a possibility that he is the 4th greatest of all time.

In reply to Chris the Tall:


If he is greater than Borg, McEnroe, Lendl etc then you would, I think, also have to argue that Farah is a greater 1500m runner than Coe (because he's run faster). Comparing across eras in these sort of absolute terms is a bit silly.

In reply to The Lemming:



But he married an Englishwoman, so he'll be entitled to dual nationality in the brave new world

In reply to Chris the Tall:


As much as I don't like a lot about Coe off the track, yes he was. I still think Farah and Froome have both achieved more than Murray this year.

In reply to The Lemming:



When he wins, he is at least British.

It is only when he loses that he becomes "that miserable, humourless Scottish git".

In reply to stevieb:

Farah does hold a world record, just a fairly minor one, 3,000m indoors I think.

In reply to winhill:

I was about to post the same! - didn't know about Mansfield Town though, good pub fact.

In reply to Robert Durran:
I think Farah has made it look like he hasn't had any serious rivals, he has, but he has beaten them every time it mattered. You don't win 9 consecutive global titles in the world's most competitive sport by chance. On the track he has achieved more than Gebrselassie and Bekele and is up with them in terms of greatness in my mind.

Murray is brilliant and I watched and enjoyed last nights final. But I always get slightly miffed when commentators declare people in their own sport to the best the best across all sport.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


I suspect he will, but Farah should get it - greatest ever British Olympian in a major global sport.

In reply to The New NickB:


Yes, of course, nothing more could possibly have been asked of Farah in those nine championships. But do you think he has, or has ever had, a world record at 5000 or 10000 in him?

In reply to The New NickB:


And that's the point I was making.... if you want to be considered the best sportsman in decades you need to have had more than just a good year.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I would say not, but I would never have said he could run 3:28 for 1500 before he did it. I think Farah is the world's greatest ever 3,000m runner that has to run further to pick up those big titles.

In reply to Indy:


I agree, Murray has had a few good years to be fair, but this is his best year and probably isn't quite as good as the year that a couple of others have had.

In reply to The New NickB:


A good way of putting it - makes his achievements seem even more impressive!

In reply to The New NickB:


As a kid I loved the Coe/Ovett rivalry, but always prefered Ovett, and remember a few times when Coe switched races to avoid racing him. But joking aside I agree, Coe has the better record. Whether his record is better than Farah is another matter - Coe had the records, Farah has the medals.

Froome vs Farah vs Murray ?

If Froome had won the Vuelta then he would have achieved something unprecedented, but he and his team were caught napping at the vital moment - a miss is as good as a mile. So aside from the TDF (not to be sniffed at !) he won Dauphine and an olympic bronze - such is the standard of British sport that such achievements will only just get him on the SPOTY shortlist.

Farah's double gold at the olympics, retaining his titles and the fact that he is World Champ at both as well is incredible and for me puts him ahead of Coe.

But, since we are being ultra-picky, both he and Froome had the "luxury" of only having to peak once in the year. Murray started off the year in Jan (beaten finalist in Aus Open), won the first of his 9 titles in May and has barely had chance to catch his breath in the 6 months since - French Open final, Wimbo and the Olympics within the space of 10 weeks and then this run at the end of the year.

I suppose another way of looking at it is Murray's record this year is 78-9, whilst Froome has only raced on 72 days.

In reply to Chris the Tall:
I won't argue that Murray is the least of the Big 4, but there is still a possibility that he is the 4th greatest of all time.

at this point i wouldn't agree. In the open era, Connors, McEnroe, Borg, Lendl, and Sampras all clearly ahead of him, i'd say, with many more slams and long spells at number 1 in the rankings- mostly in very competitive eras too.

I think what this year does do is move him into their company though, and that of Laver, Wilander, Becker, Edberg and Agassi, in 15 or so best players of the open era. He's still light on slams, but his record in masters series, the olympics, and consistency in reaching finals over a sustained period, and across all surfaces, moves him up from the '2nd tier', where i'd rank the likes of rafter, kuerten, courier, safin, hewitt, wawrinka. i hope he capitalises on his current form to win a couple more, and consolidate that status.

In reply to stevieb:




yes; Farah has been dominant to a degree only really comparable to Bolt, in the track disciplines. Which makes his lack of world records noteworthy. Has he been running in an era where the quality of his competitors been limited compared to previous era? Or are these the times the clean athletes can do vs possible doping in previous eras? Has that ever been raised as an issue in the distance events, and over the top competitors, the way it has with the sprinters?

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Murray - well done

But

Its only tennis - a game of limited nr of participants

(at least tennis is a sport though, unlike car driving)

In reply to subtle:

well, all sports have a limited number of participants.

and tennis isn't *that* limited- its one of the few truly global sports. There have been world number one/ grand slam winners from 5 of the 6 continents, and if you include doubles, all 6 continents. current men's top 20 includes players from 14 countries on 4 continents, and would be 5 if Juan Martin del Potro didn't keep getting injured...

In reply to Indy:
All this talk of best British sportsman of all time, he's not even the best Scottish sportsman of all time. That's obviously Stephen Hendry.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Farah runs against athletes with faster 5,000m and 10,000m times on a regular basis and he beats them. He has changed the way distance track events are run, in major championships at least, Bekele was famous for his fast finish, but he wasn't as fast as Farah. Those world records were run in paced Grand Prix events rather than at championships, which Farah has not done as often as Gebrselassie or Bekele did. Maybe partly because it doesn't quite play to his strengths in the same way it did for them.

I'd say the three of them stand head and shoulders above anyone else in modern distance running. I think only really Nurmi and Zatopek really come close and the passage of time makes comparisons difficult.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

In the stakes for best Scottish Sportsperson of all time I think Andy might come in just behind the entire 1967 Celtic team and Ronald Ross (Ronaldo of the Glens) of Kingussie Camanachd, who scored more than 1000 goals for the side...... for the uninitiated.....shinty.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:


Jocky Wilson, surely ?

In reply to The New NickB:

that's really interesting- thanks. and certainly, by the measure of his domination in championships, he must be unparalleled in british athletics, and a good shout for 'greatest british sportsperson'. SPOTYs certainly going to be interesting this year- i thought Murray's win last year was a bit soft really, the team award should have been sufficient for his contribution to the Davis cup win, and someone else should have got the individual award. But this year- wimbledon, olympic gold, season finals win, 3 Master series wins and year end number 1- that's a pretty high bar... hard to pick between him, Farah, and froome as three times TdF winner now!

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

There are many more barriers to entry in tennis than there are in athletics, boxing or football, most of them economic rather than geographic.

The Williams sisters are perhaps an exeption, but I can't think of any other professional players that haven't come from comfortable if not wealthy backgrounds.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

I am very pleased for him, years of hard graft he is now the world number 1 and by far the best tennis player the UK has ever produced.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

I'm not sure why he's Not near the world record. One reason is he targets the championships to a greater degree, and his stand out skill is his sprint finish, rather than lap times.
Drugs may have been involved, but I'm not aware any of the Ethiopians of that era ever tested positive?

In reply to subtle:



'Motor sport' they obviously got the name wrong, when did you ever see a car driver in a gym?
Oh wait ......

In reply to Indy:


That's a fair point .

In reply to Jim C:


No it's not. Tennis players who grunt are competitors and are allowed to grunt. Members of the crowd are not competitors and are not allowed to put the competitors off.

In reply to Robert Durran:


So the sudden upsurge in women grunting is nothing to do with putting there opponent off?

In reply to The New NickB:


So why don't these faster runners just go at a faster pace from the start of the race, if necessary sharing the lead, so that Farah can't stay with them, or at least run the finish out of him? Am I missing something?

I always felt that in 1980, when Coe was in a class of his own over 800m, he should have had the confidence to do a Radisha and run from the front in the Olympic final - I expect he could have won comfortably.

In reply to Indy:


It may well be for all I know, but if it's not against the rules why shouldn't they? If it is seen as a problem then it should be outlawed in the rules. I actually quite like the grunting - a bit like powerscreams in climbing.

In reply to Indy:

Grunting should have been stamped on hard the day that Monica Seles appeared. I can't watch when it gets bad.

In reply to Moley:


Better than Fred Perry?

In reply to Robert Durran:


A few have tried, but never really with any conviction. I think it is a fear that they will act as a pacemaker for someone else, including possibly Farah, who will almost certainly outsprint them. I suspect they don't know just how fast Farah can go either.

In reply to Pedro50:


Gunter Parche tried his best.

In reply to The New NickB:


Well, it seems they have nothing to lose - unless they are always going to be happy to settle for second!

In reply to winhill:


Amateur Vs professional era, difficult to compare but I would say it would be comparatively harder now than then.

But ultimately it may all come down to who has the better clothing range

In reply to winhill:


The man that said after being ask what his chances were replied "lets just say I wouldn't want to be playing me today"

In reply to winhill:
Hard to say for certain. Comparing current players with previous generations in the open era is hard enough. Comparing with players 80 years ago is near impossible id have thought.

The global reach of the game, and the number of players involved, is so much greater now that it's likely to be considerably harder to get to the top of the sport than in perry's day.

But then Perry could only beat the players in front of him, and he did.

Maybe the suggestion of comparing their sportswear ranges to prove who's best isn't such a daft one....

In reply to Robert Durran:
You raise good questions, but the reason that other people dont try to burn Mo off in a drag race is that it's very unlikely to work. Unless you can gap him significantly the person leading at WR pace will be pretty stuffed at the end and has the mental stress of knowing that he's still there. All Mo has to do is grit his teeth, hang in, enjoy the peacemaking ank kick arse at the end . He has a really extreme ability to change pace - I got to see it first hand when he was still running Surrey leagues

MO isn't the first to do this - see Haile G to some extent, or more pertinently Lasse Viren.

If it was his focus I think Mo could run a mean 5k. I don't know why he hasn't really tried. Coe certainly was very focused on world records as well as winning .

In reply to wbo:


Well it would be a fantastic spectacle next year in London to see his rivals have a real go at it - basically say to him that if you want Gold again you'll have to break or come close to breaking the world record.

In reply to Robert Durran:


As always there are 'acceptable' ( very subjective) levels, and I agreed that there are some players that could be distracted by their competitor's , what some would say is , excessive noise levels.
(whether or not players grunt as gamesmanship or not, is another question)

I don't like it, and when I think about it , I am less likely to want to watch a match with excessive grunters, some might say that is a problem for me, others might see it as a problem for the game.
Then again I'm not a huge tennis fan, and maybe am just easily put off.

In reply to wbo:

I don't understand the obsession with world records. How many does Andy Murray have? Chris Froome?

Farah runs to win, which is surely the point. And what's more he does it as well as anyone ever has. He's the only man ever to retain 5000 and 10000m titles at worlds and olympics. That's six years at the absolute highest level.

He's British record holder at 1500, 3000, 5000, 10000 and half marathon. I expect he'll have the marathon soon too.

What's more he runs in a sport with no entry requirements and therefore the most competitive in the world. He is a contender for best athlete of all time, not just in the UK.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Shame Andy Murray is sponsored by a clothing company that openly endorses trophy hunting and at the same time is a global ambassador for the WWF. I’ve great admiration for his sporting achievement but he should either end his association with Under Armour or put pressure on them to change their outlook. Same applies to Welsh Rugby & Spurs.

In reply to XXXX:


It's really very simple. If you hold the 5000m world record it means you have run the distance faster than any other human being.

Murray and Froome excel in sports which do not lend themselves to such repeatable objective measurements of achievement.

In reply to Nick Haine:

I've never heard of the brand, so you have just done more to raise brand awareness than Murray ! Now you mention it, I do recognise the logo, but didn't know what it meant.

But a quick look at their website doesn't give me any indication that they "openly endorses trophy hunting", which I agree is a despicable thing

In reply to Chris the Tall:

They have a sub brand called Under Armour Hunt which very much does endorse trophy hunting. It's a bit of a Social Meeja crusade of the the week hence someone coming out of three posts in 12 years to bring it up.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Froome does, but he has to be careful about breaking them. He got loads of abuse when he revealed he'd beaten Armstrong's time up the Col du Modane !

In reply to Chris the Tall:


Come to that I can't find tennis under the activities on their site either

In reply to Chris the Tall: there's a different emphasis in cycling - for sure there are track records and the hour, but the big deals are the monuments or grand tours. World records are a big deal because running has a big emphasis on times, be it park run of world level.

To Robert Durran : it would be exciting, but excruciating to watch

To irk the purist: remember the world champs haven't been important for long - go look at Lasse Viren - similar tactics too

In reply to wbo:


But potentially the greatest race of all time. Certainly since Coe/Ovett.

In reply to Robert Durran:

5k and especially 10k races are as tactical as the tour de france. They aren't repeatable races over a set distance.

I find the desire to put farah down really odd.

In reply to XXXX:


Eh? 5k and 10k races are always over the same distance (and on more or less identical tracks). Obviously different races are different tactically, but world records are usually broken with pace makers in a similar way. It is a fact that Farah has not got close to the records and perfectly reasonable to discuss why not - WR's count for a lot in athletics.


Who is putting him down?

In reply to Robert Durran:

"I think Mo Farah is fantastic, and it is obviously difficult to make comparisons across eras and distances, but no major world records and has he been lucky to be around at a time with no really serious rivals?"

In reply to Robert Durran: well tactically there's some variation but they tend to come down to a few, templates. The repeatability is what makes times so relevant, comparable.

I really don't know why he hasn't had a go at a record. Hes tried a lot of other stuff

In reply to XXXX:


That was from my earlier post.

So, I repeat my question - who is putting him down?

In reply to XXXX:


I think that is a reasonable comment. I'd also like to see Farah go for the world records and as he hasn't really been pushed hard to run fast times it does make you question how good the opposition is currently. Personally I think Farah could run quite a bit faster but he isn't likely to use a major championship to do any more than he has to.

In reply to wynaptomos:

I'm not about to debate the merits of one of the world's finest ever athletes. His record at major championships speaks for itself.

In reply to XXXX:


Totally agree with you.

In reply to XXXX:


.If you are not prepared to discuss anything, what are you doing in a discussion forum?

In reply to XXXX:

Would you be prepared to discuss Coe's failure to win an Olympic title at 800m or does his astonishing world record speak for itself?

In reply to Robert Durran:


He explained it himself at the time. He ran a poor race.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I think for many athletics fans Rudisha's 800m was the stand out performance at the London Olympics. Not necessarily because it was a world record, although in terms of times (of the whole field) it was undoubtably the greatest 800m ever run, but because of the style in which he did it. It helps that he has got such as beautifully fluid running style, but as he said himself, he just "went for it". He knew he was the fastest and didn't let anyone run a tactical race. Of course whilst Rudisha has managed to retain his Olympic times, he has not managed to be as consistent as Farah in the intervening years.

In reply to BnB:


Yes, I know. I was just wondering whether Irk would prefer that to be whitewashed!

In reply to The New NickB:


Absolutely. Perhaps the greatest ever performance in an Olympics. I think the WR is significant though in an age where they are almost always set up and staged in events where the winner as such is not important, so that it doesn't really matter if it goes wrong.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I know it was the Commonwealth Games rather than Olympics, but Filbert Bayi in 1974 in a WR over 1500 metres probably had more top 5 world best times behind him, and he led from gun to tape for almost twice the distance. Plus he wasn't anywhere near as much a favourite.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I know winning the olympics is far more important than a WR, and thus the athletes will aim to peak for that, but do they really have just one focus for the year? I've been trying to see what else Farah has done this year and it's not easy to get a list, but I see he has won a couple of diamond league races - one at 3k and one at 5k. I'm guessing these races are quite lucrative, but even so I would have thought he might use one as means of trying something different, going for a record rather than a win

Lots of cycling fans hate the concept of a "season-long narrative" that gets bandied about, and admittedly it doesn't really suit the sport - you rarely see the GT winners at the sharp end of a monument, so a ranking system is a bit of an oddity (how do you compare Sagan to Froome ?) . But the rankings and event structure in Tennis has been working pretty well for over 25 years and I can't see why it wouldn't work in athletics - the diamond league is an attempt but it seems pretty half-hearted. In tennis you have more than a dozen events each year where you can expect to see all the top names. Why isn't it like that in Athletics ?

And this is why I rank Murray above Farah, he hasn't just peaked once this season, but several times, hes played 16 tournaments (and 2 Davis Cup ties), played every month of the year so far and had a kid as well !

In reply to Chris the Tall:

He didn't "peak" for one of those Davis Cup ties.

In reply to Chris the Tall:


But you're not comparing like with like. For a world class athlete, the ONLY thing which really counts this year is the Olympics, so of course everything is geared towards peaking for them. Whereas for a tennis player there are four slams plus the Olympics.

As for rankings, do you think a tennis player would really swap a single Grand slam title for a spell as number one? Rankings seem a bit of a side show to me - nobody is going to remember a player who spent years at number one losing loads of finals but never winning one.

In reply to The New NickB:

You mean the one where he lost a 5-setter to DP, his first defeat in about 15 DC matches ! And his last defeat of the season. Yep, you're right, that wasn't a peak, but it was hardly a rest either !

In reply to Robert Durran:

Of course we aren't comparing like with like, but somehow a thread on Andy Murray turned into a discussion on Mo Farah, so it is at least vaguely on-topic to compare their achievements. Now you could say that Farah scored 100% because he only had 2 goals, whereas Murray only got 25% of the slams or 50% of the 6 top tournaments, but clearly that's bollocks.

My point was that Farah should be able to attempt WRs without jeopardizing the Olympics - I mean, what is he doing the rest of the time, practising his backhand ?

But ultimately it comes down to the question of whether it is more impressive to get to the top in Tennis or Middle-distance running ? I take the point that running is more accessible to all, so theoretically there is more competition. But I would say that genetic factors have a far greater effect in athletics than they do in Tennis. So whilst most top tennis players have middle-class first-world upbringings, most MD runners have East African origins, and most sprinters have West African origins. Hard to say which of these pools is the largest. Of course just being in the right "pool" is only a very small part of it, to get to the top requires talent and dedication from a very early age.

But when forced to pick one over the other, I'm going to say getting to the top in tennis is more impressive, particularly in the modern game, because it requires both exceptional levels of BOTH athleticism and skill.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Maybe let's just say that they both had superb but not perfect years.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Did you enjoy the quiet word Novak had with Andy at the net on putting his final return long? It struck me as supremely gracious and respectful of Andy's very long journey. He then backed this up when the pair stood side by side for the photo call. Suddenly Djokovicjust melted away and let Andy take the glory. Novak is not alone amongst the big 4 for his sportsmanship and grace in defeat or victory.