UKC

web stats are more trustworthy that climbers' reports: discuss

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 French Erick 21 Nov 2016

> I don't know the route at all, what gave me cause for thought was their reporting of frozen turf when the stats say otherwise. Doesn't matter if it's a handful of turf placements or an entire route of it..

So you are either saying they are liars,
or that they are nor cognisant of the way to use turf medium,
or that routes should never be climbed whether turf is frozen or not.
Which is which?

If they report turf being frozen, my first impulse is to believe them. I am biased as I love winter climbing (in Scotland) and probably a bit naive.

Please, if you have a specific gripe, make your own thread and vent your views there. Something along the lines of "to those who pretended turf was frozen..."

I usually do not like to take things personally to someone but your "my PC says that a machine's readings of temperature being made available on the web shows that what you say is a lie" has irked me some. I would not descend to name calling etc but I would like to have an outline of your rational for making an assumption that it was ethically wrong. BTW do not answer here. I'll make this post the first on another thread. Ta
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 galpinos 21 Nov 2016
In reply to French Erick:

I guess it's along the lines of:

- There is a general concern that people raring to go climb things too early when out of condition
- Turf only lasts for so long, it'll go quickly if not frozen
- People will rarely admit mistakes and are more likely to say it was frozen than not, especially if they completed the route. This may lead to others climbing the route and the turf is quickly trashed.
In reply to French Erick:

I'll just leave this here. http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=285399
Then reported as in fine nick by a following party.
OP French Erick 21 Nov 2016
In reply to galpinos:

> I guess it's along the lines of:

> - There is a general concern that people raring to go climb things too early when out of condition

> - Turf only lasts for so long, it'll go quickly if not frozen

> - People will rarely admit mistakes and are more likely to say it was frozen than not, especially if they completed the route. This may lead to others climbing the route and the turf is quickly trashed.

I agree with all of the above. My post is about someone potentially saying: the machine reads X so nowt is in. This may or may not be true. If a party went to check and actually found it to be in than I am more inclined to believe the person then the machine.

There is a certain leap between: it is early season, readings don't seem encouraging and people are SYSTEMATICALLY climbing routes which are not in.
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 mrphilipoldham 21 Nov 2016
In reply to French Erick:

I was in the area on Friday and nothing was even close to being frozen. Maybe I should've pointed that out, but then maybe you shouldn't have jumped to biased, naive conclusions based on your experience 300 miles closer to the North Pole.
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OP French Erick 21 Nov 2016
In reply to Andy Clarke1965:

I take your point about credibility of reports. It is subjective and too often people will indeed mean it was in great nick when it was only just justifiably climbable . That picture to me should may be have the following caption provided that turf was frozen (likely to be the case as it is still exposed and thus would have had time to freeze): Just in winter conditions. Could be whiter to deserve its full grade.

I accept that some (very few IMO) people have very intimate knowledge of crags and can give you a very accurate "guesstimate" of what conditions are likely to be from just reading forecast and weather station reports. It is still a guess and can only reliably be validated by people on the ground. Indeed, I still walk out empty handed regularly despite some good guesswork. I am guilty of blind optimism! I would tend to not be so completely blind as to climb something outrageously not in. I have made mistakes like many and have climbed things which would probably have been better left alone.

However, I do not accept that most people can reliably tell me from a screen that a route which was done was not in. It is possible to extrapolate a bit more from a photo but not always (sandstone cliffs is a typical example) unless it is something like this:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=104448

Then again, I can guarantee you, and you will have to take my word for it, that this was in nick.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=211073
You may still disagree, and of course you are intitled to your own opinion.

My point is that I would still rather lean towards believing the person over web speculations based on web data interpretations. I am not saying that I would take everything at face value and I would obviously apply judgement too.
OP French Erick 21 Nov 2016
In reply to mrphilipoldham:
> I was in the area on Friday and nothing was even close to being frozen. Maybe I should've pointed that out, but then maybe you shouldn't have jumped to biased, naive conclusions based on your experience 300 miles closer to the North Pole.

That makes a huge difference!
You were there and back this up with readings IS an educated guess at what might have been reality. It is still a guess (even if a really good one).
One day may sometimes make a difference.
300 miles north seem to make a lot of difference in many walks of life.

I jumped to conclusion because the answer you left allowed me to do so:
"I don't know the route at all, what gave me cause for thought was their reporting of frozen turf when the stats say otherwise. Doesn't matter if it's a handful of turf placements or an entire route of it.."

I probably over reacted somewhat to that but again there is this insidious side to the post.

Anyways, you are right on many accounts: I am naive and I do live far away. I don't know the route, I am talking in theory here. Still I am happy to point out that it is theory and happy to stand corrected with proper proof. Something like "I went there and decided it would unethical to climb it as I swung my tools in turf and it was mush at the start!"

addition: I am one of the likes of your latest answer BTW
Post edited at 12:15
 mrphilipoldham 21 Nov 2016
In reply to French Erick:
If you'd just asked what I based my post on, then you could have saved getting wound up over nothing and spared us all the hassle. Internet forums, ain't they brilliant?

One day may make the difference on occasion, but the weather reports haven't been suggestive of a sharp enough drop in temperature to freeze turf that quickly.. though again, there was some variation between them so I took an average of them all and decided that with my in hand experience of Friday's conditions that I'd find it questionable the turf had frozen. Always happy to be corrected if the climbers wish to provide details and/or evidence to the contrary.

Anyway, back to work..

Edit - ..and I liked yours, points made fairly and taken on board!
Post edited at 12:22
 CurlyStevo 21 Nov 2016
In reply to French Erick:
My experience is that small tufts of turf which tend to be the critical areas not to destroy on routes will freeze very quickly if exposed. Under deeper snow (or even heather in lighter snow) or if influenced by deeper areas of water / seepage etc then it can take a lot longer.

The location of the turf meters in N Wales I suspect are in bog and not half way up the cliff.
Post edited at 12:23
 mrphilipoldham 21 Nov 2016
In reply to CurlyStevo:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/winter-climbing-and-conservation-in-wales--new-inf...

The 850m is at the foot of Clogwyn Du and the 600m one "discreetly installed on a rock bluff below the cliffs of the Devils’ Kitchen in Cwm Idwal" so I doubt it could be described as 'bog'.
OP French Erick 21 Nov 2016
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> If you'd just asked what I based my post on, then you could have saved getting wound up over nothing and spared us all the hassle. Internet forums, ain't they brilliant?

Isn't it half the fun? Being naive, I also think someone may read our web tussles and learn something from it.

> Edit - ..and I liked yours, points made fairly and taken on board!

Cheers. I had a good chuckle too!
 timjones 21 Nov 2016
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> If you'd just asked what I based my post on, then you could have saved getting wound up over nothing and spared us all the hassle. Internet forums, ain't they brilliant?

> One day may make the difference on occasion, but the weather reports haven't been suggestive of a sharp enough drop in temperature to freeze turf that quickly.. though again, there was some variation between them so I took an average of them all and decided that with my in hand experience of Friday's conditions that I'd find it questionable the turf had frozen. Always happy to be corrected if the climbers wish to provide details and/or evidence to the contrary.

> Anyway, back to work..

Looking at the air temperatures on the idwal project and the wind data from the Met Office, it seems quite probable that exposed turf on the crag could easily have frozen overnight.

If you look at the relative air and turf temps at 600m compared to 850m it appears that the 850m station might be located in a less than ideal location



 mrphilipoldham 21 Nov 2016
In reply to timjones:

How do you access the historical wind data for Saturday night? I can only go as far back as Sunday day time.
1
 timjones 21 Nov 2016
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> How do you access the historical wind data for Saturday night? I can only go as far back as Sunday day time.

By looking on Sunday
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 Dogwatch 22 Nov 2016
In reply to French Erick:


> an outline of your rational for making an assumption

You are a language teacher, apparently. You might therefore like to know that the word is "rationale".


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OP French Erick 22 Nov 2016
In reply to Dogwatch:

Correct. Typo on my part but also a mistake I commonly make due to the fact that being originally a French word it is "le rational". Thanks for pointing it out though

What abou stats vs ground reports, report credibility, and lack of restraint?
 Jamie B 22 Nov 2016
In reply to French Erick:

Has there been a thread pulled? I feel like I'm missing the context of this discussion.

Like you my preference would always be to take the ascenscionists at face value, and I would need some pretty irrefutable evidence (like wading through porridge on an adjacent route) to suggest otherwise.
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