/ Support for training

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Jim.glover3 - on 01 Dec 2016
I have started training aerobic and high end anaerobic endurance, as a 6c climber, how often per week should I train this? and is it a good idea to train in blocks, e.g. 6 weeks of endurance, 6 weeks of strength, etc.?

Thanks
Jim
mike1979 - on 02 Dec 2016
In reply to Jim.glover3:
I wouldn't train using a periodized plan just yet. Have a look at the sessions and plans on Steve Maisch's website. I'm sure you'll make good gains using such a non-linear plan if you're new to training.
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Si dH - on 02 Dec 2016
In reply to Jim.glover3:

What is the actual training you are doing?

I would personally advise doing a'block' but not focussing only on one thing, just enough to ensure you train it well, but whilst not losing out simultaneously in other areas.
So in your case, I would aim for about 3 sessions a week doing your endurance training, but make sure you keep 1 session a week strength/power as well so that doesn't drop off too much (could just be bouldering outside if you enjoy that.) If you can't manage all of that with enough rest in between(personally I'd always have a day off between sessions when I can) then drop to two endurance sessions per week, but improvement will then be a bit slower.
If you do that effectively you should see improvements within a month. Then you could, eg, reverse it eg 2 or 3 strength sessions and 1 endurance session per week.

Agree there are some good podcasts out there. Lots through trainingbeta.
planetmarshall on 02 Dec 2016
In reply to Jim.glover3:

There was a good article on different types of periodization on TrainingBeta,

https://www.trainingbeta.com/periodized-training-for-climbing/

If you're just starting out, I would recommend what they call 'Concurrent Periodization', though to me this doesn't look like periodization at all. It has the advantage of including more variety in the training program so you're more likely to stay motivated when just starting out.
Jon Stewart - on 02 Dec 2016
In reply to Jim.glover3:

I don't think there's enough info there to generate much useful advice. I don't know a huge amount about training, but from a couple of sessions with coaches I have picked up some basic principles, which are actually quite obvious.

A training plan is a tool to get you from A to B. So you first need to identify A and B.

Where are you now? What are your strengths? What are your weakness? If you forget about analysing technique and psychological factors you'll already be on the wrong path.

What are you aiming to do? A one armer? Train for that. The classic Alpine North faces might require a slightly different regime...

What can you realistically actually give to training in terms of time and motivation?

Once you have this information all sorted out you can start to build a training plan. You say you're a 6c climber, but does that mean you can crimp your way up a 6c indoors onsight but can't burl up a super-steep jugfest no matter how many goes? Do you want to be able to climb any 7a in the indoor wall onsight, regardless of style, or maybe redoint 7b up the steepest overhang? Do you want to be onsighting 7as in sunny Spain? Or hang on to E4 stamina fests in Pembroke in the summer? All these things would require a different training plan, which may employ periodisation aiming to Peak at a certain time to give you best chance of meeting your goal.

I've had good experiences with just a single session of coaching at an indoor wall where the coach has talked to me about goals, analysed my climbing, and come up with a (fairly vague) plan. I've never paid for a full week-by-week plan, but if you're interested in periodisation specifically that might be worth looking into.

Good luck!
Mark Stevenson - on 02 Dec 2016
In reply to Jim.glover3:
A general rule of thumb is grade 6 climbers probably want to average around 3 sessions per week (13 per calendar month) and grade 7 climbers 4 per week (17-18 per calendar month).

Somewhere in that range is probably sensible. Although, generally only 2 out of 3, or 3 out of 4 sessions should be highly specific to your current training goals, the remaining session should provide some more general climbing so you don't completely loose power if training endurance, or vice versa.

It's best to always count training sessions over a whole month, or per block. That way, you're already hopefully thinking about varying between hard and easier weeks which is a key part of any sensible training plan. For example, a six week block might be, in terms of sessions per week; 3,3,3,4,4,1. You build up to two hard weeks, but then schedule a rest week before the next block.

HTH
Post edited at 19:11
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stp - on 04 Dec 2016
In reply to Jim.glover3:

I think what Jon Stewart said is good solid advice particularly: 'I don't think there's enough info there to generate much useful advice'.

Even just focusing on the physical aspects what you need to do can vary from person to person. Some naturally powerful climbers really need to work on their endurance a lot. But for many, probably most, building strength is the main priority most of the time. Doing a high volume of routes or endurance sessions 3 or 4 weeks before your training ends might be all you need.
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Jon Stewart - on 04 Dec 2016
In reply to stp:

> But for many, probably most, building strength is the main priority most of the time.

I've heard this said before and never really known who it's aimed at. Presumably good sport climbers, i.e. people with years of experience and excellent technique who are already pulling their hardest and hitting a limit at the absolute difficulty of the moves (or need to have a bit more in the bag so they can do very hard moves when pumped)? Who are inevitably climbing overhanging polished limestone where strength is such a huge part of the picture.

I don't think it applies much to low-mid e-grade trad plodders? It's so hard to make gains in strength (for me, anyway) and I just don't think it's the limiting factor. Exactly what *is* is very hard to pin down though; often I think it's technical in a very specific way, i.e. I'm just crap at doing the exact thing required by the route I've failed on.

> Doing a high volume of routes or endurance sessions 3 or 4 weeks before your training ends might be all you need.

Yes. I get sucked into stamina training because it's so easy to make quick gains. As you say, 4 weeks before the season starts is probably an economical approach.

zmv - on 04 Dec 2016
In reply to Jon Stewart:
As you said earlier it all depends what your goals are.

"It's so hard to make gains in strength (for me, anyway) and I just don't think it's the limiting factor. " - if you are comfortable climbing 6c/6c+ on real rock then I imagine E1 and E3, maybe some E4 should be very achievable. And endurance will be a huge factor as you are recovering from a jug and assessing what gear to place.

However if an average E3/E4 climber aspired to climb E6/ E7 or a high sport grade, strength could indeed be a limiting factor as often these routes would simply contain V5-V6 or harder boulder problems (especially if the routes are short).



Post edited at 21:45
Jon Stewart - on 04 Dec 2016
In reply to zmv:

> As you said earlier it all depends what your goals are.

> "It's so hard to make gains in strength (for me, anyway) and I just don't think it's the limiting factor. " - if you are comfortable climbing 6c/6c+ on real rock then I imagine E1 and E3, maybe some E4 should be very achievable. And endurance will be a huge factor as you are recovering from a jug and assessing what gear to place.

To totally hijack the thread, I think if you can climb 6b/+ then really you should be climbing E2/3 on stamina type routes if you're making good use of your resources. I can't generally onsight 6c but can get up a carefully picked E4. I can boulder V5/6 (worked) so I don't think strength is what's stopping me getting solid at E4 and tickling E5.

> However if an average E3/E4 climber aspired to climb E6/ E7 or a high sport grade, strength could indeed be a limiting factor

Of course it would be, that's a bloody huge jump in grade!!
stp - on 05 Dec 2016
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> I've heard this said before and never really known who it's aimed at.

Well I think it's much down the the natural strength an individual has to begin with. For me I think a strength improvement was necessary to get me from UK 5c to proper 6a climbing. I suspect I'm a bit weaker naturally than average but probably not by that much.

In the context of this thread getting from 6c to presumably 7a I think getting stronger would probably be a necessity for a lot of people.

> It's so hard to make gains in strength (for me, anyway)

Yes strength gains are harder, and do take longer than endurance gains. Which is another reason why they should be prioritized and trained for over a longer period. And the upside is they take longer to diminish too.

On outdoor routes I don't think endurance is as important as strength generally. That's because they're not set by a human attempting to make the route fairly even all the way up, but by the randomness of nature. They're typically punctuated by good or at least reasonable rests and harder crux moves and for these being stronger helps more. Even when onsighting a pumpy route if you get to the crux and are stronger you'll have more options for solving the crux moves and thus be able to get through it faster.
1poundSOCKS - on 06 Dec 2016
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> I can boulder V5/6 (worked) so I don't think strength is what's stopping me getting solid at E4 and tickling E5.

I reckon being stronger helps in lots of ways, not just being able to do hard isolated moves. It helps you be more efficient and it helps you to recover in places where a weaker climber couldn't. So I think it can help to delay the pump in a few ways.
Post edited at 09:49
1poundSOCKS - on 06 Dec 2016
In reply to stp:

> I suspect I'm a bit weaker naturally than average but probably not by that much.

Is this the reverse of everybody thinking they're a better driver than average.

> Yes strength gains are harder, and do take longer than endurance gains. Which is another reason why they should be prioritized and trained for over a longer period.

I think this is really important, or at least it's part of my long term 'strategy' to improve. Constantly work the things that take a long time to improve, and I reckon that's strength and technique. Endurance comes and goes to a greater extent.

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